25 ms·

Something is wrong when the ‘telephone app’ on your phone becomes 3rd party

598 points by guy-brush 9y ago

xenithorb 9y ago
You don't need to root a phone to install a new operating system. What you do likely need to do is unlock the bootloader, if at all possible. If it's supported by LineageOS, use that instead. If not - perhaps consider buying a phone that is. If you're really privacy conscious, perhaps look at the CopperheadOS options - they're specifically known for privacy. Other than that, this is the sad state of big data and advertising. Unless you fight back agasint it, everything about you is going to be poked, proded, and collected for futher processing and aggregation. Hell, a lot of you probably work in that industry here. You should not assume that any device manufacturer has your interests in mind, as the trends have overwhelmingly shown that anything proprietary always leads to them finding a way to further line their pockets as interest for their product wanes, or their investors get greedier. These are facts of life; take action but don't be surprised when you're being misled and taken advantage of when you're putting the trust of something so integral in a proprietary party. Godspeed.
patmike830 9y ago
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gumby 9y ago
I don't agree. It's simply that some vendors are untrustworthy. Frankly if the telephone app on my "phone" stopped working I wonder how long it would take me to notice.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  If the dialer stopped working I'd never notice, but if the phone app broke entirely I'd stop getting calls from telemarketers and loan scams.
  - tzakrajs 9y ago
    And vacation sweepstakes, and shitty recruiters, and IRS scams, and... This must be the elephant in the room. Traditional telephony has become dominated by bad actors. They hit a critical mass and now my phone app is a waste of space.
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      I've always found it weird how everyone I know seems much more cautious about phone usage than me: for example, I've never understood why people don't answer numbers they don't recognize. I'm slowly realizing that this is because apparently people are inundated with spam calls? I think I may have received one solitary spam call in my entire life. I can't really account for the discrepancy
      - muppetman 9y ago
        Where do you live? I'm the same, 0 spam calls ever, but I live in NZ.
        __jal 9y ago
        Looking over my call log, I have five incoming from humans I wanted to hear from over the last seven days. I have 27 from random numbers/places that I know from experience are scams. This is a US number. If you find your life lacking opportunities to get in to obscenity shouting matches with random con artists, it is great! Otherwise, not so much.
        muppetman 9y ago
        Wow, that's terrible. No wonder Google Dialer has a spam filter - I never understood the point of it but now I do.
Voloskaya 9y ago
Or that just means that we still call the device in our pocket a "phone" for legacy reasons. If we are okay with having a third party handles our messages, VoIP etc, why not the phone app?
- nkrisc 9y ago
  I don't carry a phone in my pocket, I carry a personal computer that also makes voices calls over cellular networks.
  - badloginagain 9y ago
    Obligatory link to Cory Doctorow's 'War on General Computing': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg
    - nkrisc 9y ago
      This was new to me, thank you! The video helpfully has a transcript: https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcript.md https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcrip...
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    I've been joking lately that there is a new one syllable word for "personal computer": phone. At the current rate that's how the language will shift. I suppose we'll know if people start referring to things like "macOS deskphones" and think "laptop" always meant "laptop phone". :) It's like those futurist ads from the 50s (and 80s/90s) AT&T that soon there will be phones capable of amazing things everywhere in our lives, except they aren't all AT&T branded and most of them started with the name "personal computer". (Though savor the irony that Ma Bell's legacy lives on in Linux by way of Bell Labs' contributions to Unix.) Then again, I'm also strongly for renaming 3D Printers to facsimile machines because the word fax is too useful to lose to ancient toner-based modem printers.
    - 9y ago
gruez 9y ago
https://www.wileyfox.com/the-brand https://www.wileyfox.com/the-brand >UNRIVALLED PRIVACY AND SECURITY >Choose precisely the data you wish to share; protect apps with additional PINs; prevent spam with Truecaller Integrated Dialler. So their idea of privacy is privacy from everyone except the manufacturer (and "trusted" third parties) >Of course, you can always root the phone and install custom roms. But this process takes some time and the development and compatibility with these roms is less than satisfactory. Maybe he shouldn't have bought a device with such a small userbase?
- guy-brush 9y ago
  > Maybe he shouldn't have bought a device with such a small userbase? Yes, I think I did a mistake there. On the other hand, there are small brands which are incredibly open about hardware and software development, such as [1]. I want to stress that the current state of compatibility to smartphone operating systems is really not satisfying. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/
- zifnab06 9y ago
  FWIW their phones originally ran CyanogenOS. They're in the process of updating to stock android [1], after cyanogen's recent layoffs/pivot/rebranding/disaster [2]. [1] http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/31/after-cyanogen-collapse-wileyfox-is-working-on-its-own-software-updates-for-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/31/after-cyanogen-colla... [2] http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/11/28/cyanogen-inc-will-shutter-seattle-office-by-end-of-year-more-layoffs-happening-kondik-could-be-out/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/11/28/cyanogen-inc-will-sh...
  - bbulkow 9y ago
    This. CyanogenOS couldn't make money, and WF has trouble making money, because everyone else subsidises the cost of the handset and software by selling data. If you want to provide what they claim - unparalleled security and privacy - you have to charge more, or charge a phone subscription fee for updates, or something. One can't expect to get subsidized-by-data-selling prices, and have no data selling.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Animats 9y ago
It's a real problem. Are there any voice dialing programs for Android phones which do voice recognition locally and don't require Google services? That's the way it used to work until Google broke it so they could monitor all your dialing.
- bostand 9y ago
  Google in 2007: Do no evil. Google in 2017: Skynet didn't build itself people! We need more ML training data!
  - LeifCarrotson 9y ago
    Skynet v. 0.1 didn't build itself. Clearly, though, once it becomes a minimum viable product, it will produce the next generations of itself. Or will it? If it's an AI intent on approximating human speech processing, why should it be any good at programming? See also https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9658524/1/Branches-on-the-Tree-of-Time https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9658524/1/Branches-on-the-Tree-....
    - wayn3 9y ago
      I wonder what makes people think that an AI needs to be able to code to improve itself. I don't see infant brains "programming" themselves to get better. The next step in programming is probably not anything like programming. Machine learning certainly isn't. Creating a neural net that achieves superhuman image recognition takes 30 lines of code in keras. And terabytes of training data. But the programming doesn't look anything like someone in the 90s would have thought. Except maybe for a bunch of AI researchers.
      - abakker 9y ago
        Thinking about the way we learn, I'd say it is a LOT like programming ourselves. Study and Practice both have aspects of learning to do steps in a mechanism to achieve an outcome, and each of us has to build that mechanism from scratch. The difference is that not all of us need to be self aware for the process to continue working. However, the best of us seem to have very detailed systems worked out for "programming ourselves".
mcherm 9y ago
I completely disagree with the title. The fact that "telephony" can be an app on the phone is a WONDERFUL thing. It means that the author of this article has a choice, as opposed to NOT having a choice.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  So, out of curiosity, at this point what are his choices?
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.dialer&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... . This is the "Google Dialer". This is one example; there are dozens more.
    - muppetman 9y ago
      The Google Dialer only works on Stock Android. Which is a shame.
      - bostand 9y ago
        This could be fixed if Google considers this a problem. Remember when they added Google calendar to Play to fight Samsungs BS?
        djsumdog 9y ago
        To be fair, the "Samsung BS" was them trying to setup a separate ecosystem that was just as good in case they needed to break from Google. I really hope Samsung does this at some point too. I feel there are enough people that don't want eyeProducts that we'd finally see some innovation in 3rd party markets ... or everyone would just install Samsung/Google/Amazon stores ..
      - PascLeRasc 9y ago
TheCabin 9y ago
I just came across this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/696dre/warning_to_all_wileyfox_owners_your_location_data/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/696dre/warning_to_...
- bostand 9y ago
  Oh, Yandex... So lovely. Of course if NSA has my data its only fair that FSB also gets some too...
accountyaccount 9y ago
Disagree entirely. The stock phone app is likely the least used app I keep on my phone.
- guy-brush 9y ago
  My main point is actually that I am forced to use this dialler without my consent. I am not trying to say that users shouldn't be able to customise the system but I am opposed to manufacturers forcing data-hungry 3rd party programs on customers.
  - esMazer 9y ago
    at the same time, we can choose to install a different third party dialer no? maybe what we need is a 3rd party dialer that pledges privacy.
    - bostand 9y ago
      The point is, this should not happen to core functionality. Specially not sneaky like this.
      - NikolaeVarius 9y ago
        Define core functionality. We are carrying computers that happen to have a radio that can communicate with cell towers. The phone functionality is just as "core" as any other service that the OS exposes. (Camera, Web Browser, GPS)
        kuschku 9y ago
        If it's in the /system partition, it shouldn't be able to do any data collection or bound to any companies' services. Anything bound to any companies' services or doing any data collection should be entirely user-controlled and user-replacable.
        TeMPOraL 9y ago
mtkd 9y ago
I fought having a phone through to 2008 - now I'm reconsidering wanting one again if there was a pure messaging device right now with no voice - I'd bite their hand off I don't need a mobile browser or even apps - all they do is stop me from disconnecting from work for a few minutes or hours - I don't think always-on is good for anyone over time
- thomk 9y ago
  https://www.apple.com/ipod/ https://www.apple.com/ipod/
  - mtkd 9y ago
    you can't get SMS I need a 2 week battery life, LCD screen, SMS/pager thing, with a Blackberry physical keypad and no voice or apps - and a simple mute switch
    - pilsetnieks 9y ago
      So get an old blackberry and turn on call barring.
    - bgun 9y ago
      So build your own. http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ Manufacturers are under no obligation to provide you with a device to your particular specification, unless of course you are the one paying them under contract them to do so.
      - wutbrodo 9y ago
        > Manufacturers are under no obligation to provide you with a device to your particular specification I don't think wishing that a niche was filled constitutes assuming that manufacturers have any obligation.
        9y ago
TheStrangBird 9y ago
Well in the end modern smartphones are just general purpose computers which have some artificial restrictions on what you can do with them and happen to have a touchscreen/modem/speaker/microphone etc. So the dieler just being a app is a direct consequence from smartphones not being any kind of "special/magical" embedded device. Through silently overriding the Dialer with a program I would normally suspect to be malware which sneaked on my phone is a horrible think to do...
bostand 9y ago
This why we need [edit] GDPR. Next time someone tries to harvest my personal data using an "all-inclusive" EULA I'm going to sue his ass in EU-land.
- xemdetia 9y ago
  GPDR is actually GDPR in case you are trying to read up on what that means and don't know already.
  - Shendare 9y ago
    Thanks. I like GDPR anyway. Makes me think God Damn Privacy Rules, and we're increasingly lacking in effective ones.
  - ShaneOG 9y ago
    Which is the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)[0] [0] - http://www.eugdpr.org http://www.eugdpr.org
pilot72 9y ago
You purchased a Chinese mobile phone and it installed spyware in an update. Anybody who's ever purchased a mobile from eBay or AliExpress has already seen that. They need to get their revenue from somewhere. Next time stick to a known, trustable brand.
AngeloAnolin 9y ago
Did I read that correctly? Isn’t this sweet? I am searching for a dialling application for my smartphone. A DIALLING application. Does this mean he can't practically call someone outside his contacts list as there's no way to key in phone numbers? Or would he still be able to make regular voice calls?
- muppetman 9y ago
  He can't make calls, because he disabled the dialer app. The functionality is still there in the phone, but he has no app that exposes it. Android truely does provide enough "rope" to hang yourself if you start to disable apps you shouldn't.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Yeah, the thing is, if dialer is an app you "shouldn't disable", then it also should not be silently replaced by the vendor with third-party service, with no easy way to revert that.
bighi 9y ago
You're not only using Android, but you're using an Android phone from a smaller company. While this is bad, it's not really unexpected.
mdekkers 9y ago
truecaller is something alltogether evil
on_and_off 9y ago
What exactly is wrong with the dialler being an app ? It allows exactly what the author wants with his specific desire for a dialler that does not rely on play services or true caller.
- imron 9y ago
  From the article: "When You install and use the Services, Truecaller will collect personal information from You and any devices You may use in Your interaction with our Services. This information may include e.g.: geo-location; Your IP address; device ID or unique identifier; device manufacturer and type; device and hardware settings; SIM card usage; applications installed on your device; ID for advertising; ad data, operating system; web browser; operator; IMSI; connection information; screen resolution; usage statistics; default communication applications; access to device address book; device log and event information; logs, keywords and meta data of incoming and outgoing calls and messages; version of the Services You use and other information based on Your interaction with our Services such as how the Services are being accessed (via another service, web site or a search engine); the pages You visit and features you use on the Services; the services and websites You engage with from the Services; content viewed by You, content You have commented on or sent to us and information about the ads You see and/or engage with; the search terms You use; order information and other usage activity and data logged by Truecaller’s servers from time to time. Truecaller may collect some of this information automatically through use of cookies and You can learn more about our use of cookies in our Cookie Policy" and "We transfer information to trusted vendors, service providers, and other partners who support our business and Services, such as providing technical infrastructure services, bug testing, analyzing how our Services are used, measuring the effectiveness of ads and services and facilitating payments as well as potential partners who may wish to work with us to provide other services."
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    Again, if the dialer is a system component does this and you can't remove it, you are out of luck. Since the dialer is an app, if for some reason you don't like it, you can deactivate it (you can't uninstall preloaded apps since they are on a private system partition, but disabling it is enough : it does not appear in the app least and can't startup). So you just have to install another that suits you better.
timsayshey 9y ago
Too much traffic -- couldn't access the page. Here's the cached version: http://archive.is/vs4a7 http://archive.is/vs4a7
ianseyler 9y ago
My iPhone is my pocket computer. It's on a tablet plan (data only - up to 1GB for $20 CAD) because voice and text is something I would hardly use. TextNow worked fine for me in past for phone calls and texting non-apple devices but I've since switched to Hushed as my go-to. I've never used the built in "Phone" app.
- PascLeRasc 9y ago
  What do you do about phone interviews?
  - ianseyler 9y ago
    TextNow/Hushed provides me with a local number to use. Any "burner" phone app should work as well for that.
fulafel 9y ago
How do I find a dialer app that's cloud-free?
- onli 9y ago
  I haven't used it yet, but a quick search on F-Droid showed https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=dialer&fdid=org.dnaq.dialer2 https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=dialer&fdid=..., which looks promising. I fit still works on a current android, but at least F-Droid marks it as compatible.
ris 9y ago
So what makes you think Apple or Google aren't using your call information for advertising purposes in the default diallers?
- krrrh 9y ago
  Apple's record on privacy and business model give me pretty high confidence on this one. Google may have an incentive to add call info to the profile they keep on you, but surely you're not thinking that they are as big of a privacy risk as some random third-party that puts a dialer up on the play store. Edit: I couldn't get the article to load, so I'm going by the other comments to assume this was about scammy dialers tricking regular users on Android into installing them. Obviously a dialer on a custom ROM modified for extra privacy is a justifiable reason for making it replaceable on Android.
  - tomkarlo 9y ago
    He's actually writing about the dialer that comes with the device OS (in this case an OTA, I believe, but still, it's the default / 1P dialer. It just happens to be a branded one rather than the "usual" white label dialer a smaller OEM might provide.
walrus01 9y ago
I have never heard of a "Wileyfox Swift". If you need an awesome and capable Android 7.0 based dual SIM phone with zero carrier crapware/bloatware and a close to stock Android experience, the OnePlus 3T (64 or 128GB version) is a good choice. Since Oneplus' falling out with Cyanogen Inc, and the financial failure of Cyanogen, Oneplus' own OxygenOS is essentially a re-implemented CyanogenMod that has all of the same features.
- edwintorok 9y ago
  I've almost buyed the Wileyfox Swift last week, but I'm glad that I've seen discussions around Truecaller and the Zen ads, which changed my mind and opted for a BQ Aquaris X5 Plus instead.
  - qznc 9y ago
    I recently bought a Swift 2+. I still like it. Hopefully, Zen can be disabled with the next update: https://www.reddit.com/r/wileyfox/comments/64xga8/it_should_be_possible_to_disable_wileyfox_zen/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wileyfox/comments/64xga8/it_should_...
    - mnw21cam 9y ago
      Zen can already be disabled. Long-tap the launcher background, tap settings, and there should be a toggle labelled "Wileyfox Zen".
- djsumdog 9y ago
  The thing about that was, Cyanogen stayed very silent and OnePlus's entire advertising strategy was very dodgy. I suspect Cyanogen was just sick of OnePlus's shit when they signed with that 2nd Indian distributor. Now that the Cyanogen company is dissolved, who knows what the truth was. Lately I've started using CarbonRom. It's pretty nice.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    no, it's actually the reverse, oneplus got sick of cyanogen's shit when cyanogen threatened to sue them for selling oneplus phones in India, which is a huge market. Cyanogen (Incorporated) claimed they had an exclusive agreement with an Indian company called Micromax to sell cynaogenOS phones in India. Oneplus got fed up and re-implemented all of the great features of cyanogenmod in their own fork of android (OxygenOS/HydrogenOS, respectively for english and chinese language markets). Cyanogen Inc ran themselves into the ground with dodgy business practices and threatening all of their partners, which resulted in no reputable phone manufacturer wanting to put their OS on any new models of phones.
Fej 9y ago
> This leaves me in an unpleasant spot as I, where I can, avoid using google services and now need to find an alternative dialling application. AOSP dialer. Done. Don't want the truedialer app? Run CM, like it says in the post.
- s73ver 9y ago
  You mean the thing they were running, which updated to include the 3rd party dialer app against their wishes?
mayneack 9y ago
Many have already posted about how the phone is less important than email/browser which we're ok with being 3rd party. I didn't really think there could be a difference between phone apps until I got project fi from Google. Their phone app comes with voicemail transcription and spam detection. Some of that is obviously from the service itself, but these features seem like things that I'd want to be able to acquire even if I had an AT&T Samsung (which is what I moved from and didn't have by default). Third party seems fine with me.
agumonkey 9y ago
I miss my motorola v3650.
tomkarlo 9y ago
It's always been a "telephone app", on smart phones. And in many cases, it's already been somewhat "3rd party" because in reality it's from the ODM who made your phone or the SOC vendor, not the company that branded your phone. The author is only just becoming aware that this is "3P" because he happens to have a branded dialer added on his phone, versus a "white label" dialer that was already there. I'm fairly certain Wileyfox didn't make the dialer that previously came with his phone, either. (They're a smaller OEM.) They probably just used the one provided by the ODM assembling the device for them.
bennyp101 9y ago
When I updated it at the weekend, I too noticed that the dialer had gone - which is annoying as I find the interface to Truecaller a bit of a pain - but as I rarely make calls it's something I can live with. The incoming call filtering and showing of names not in my phonebook is actually pretty useful. When I bought my Wileyfox Swift 18 months ago it came with Truecaller as an app already installed, and it integrated with the standard dialer well - ie I could use the dialer app to make calls, and incoming calls would show info from Trucaller. Not sure why they couldn't keep it like that.
tooFastFuckYou 9y ago
Android has turned out to be such a fraud.
jumpkickhit 9y ago
Funny, I'm reminded of my HP Ipaq back in 2005 or so. 800mhz smartphone with a stylus, wifi, running Windows CE. It struck me as a portable computer, with "cellphone" functionality added as an almost afterthought. Guess that's still the case if you think about it.
codewiz 9y ago
Double check which software you get with which device. Not being an apple fanboy, I have to admit: At least you know what you get when buying an Iphone. I don't understand why some people compare a $650 iPhone 7 with cheap phones loaded with some half-assed vendor fork of Android? If you wanted stock Android, you should have bought a $650 Pixel phone.
znpy 9y ago
i am still wondering how comes that nobody came up with a phone application for linux computers. I have a 3G modem in my ThinkPad X220 and i am fairly sure it is technically capable of doing and receiving phone calls.
nemoniac 9y ago
Can someone recommend a good, safe, privacy-respecting 3rd party phone app for Android, preferably for Cyanogenmod or LineageOS?
dorianm 9y ago
I thought it was about LinkedIn selling people's profiles :)
thomseddon 9y ago
Found myself in the exact same situation (have a WileyFox, updated and ended up with the awful true caller app as the default dialler + found I couldn't use the default google dialler), I've since been using: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contapps.android.dialer&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contapps.a... but it does have adverts, I'd welcome any other suggestions (aside from re-flash). Only today I was joking about how absurd it is that I was struggling with such a fundamental feature.
tdicola 9y ago
Looking at my cell phone bill I use far more data than I do actual voice a month. It's kind of an anachronism to call it a phone anymore. It's a pocket computer.
- mobiplayer 9y ago
  And yet calling it Pocket PC would be frowned upon :-)
- sprice 9y ago
  This is why I ported my phone number to Twilio and now I get an email when someone calls me with an mp3 of voicemail + transcription. And I make free outgoing calls with Google Dialer.
smnplk 9y ago
I have and idea for a VOIP app called The Stallminator. The app would feature a nice backdrop of Richard Stallman's face http://tinyurl.com/msbkwb3 http://tinyurl.com/msbkwb3
meroje 9y ago
The Swift originally shipped with CyanogenOS, which is not the same thing as CyanogenMod. CyanogenOS already featured Truecaller on the dialler to show names on incoming calls. I was confused too when the dialler disappeared from my launcher, but I use it very rarely and essentially to receive calls so not a big deal for me. I understand OP's concerns though.
dotBen 9y ago
No, this is simply proof that consumers must pick carefully the hardware vendor they decide to buy as which software it comes with will vary greatly between devices. This is simply not an issue with Google Pixel/Nexus devices, Samsung or any of the other major vendors. Running Cyanogen (which has now no longer developed) nor 'GAPPS' (Google's standard package of apps that gives you access to the Play Store, and the stock dialer) is a pretty fringe use of Android.
- qznc 9y ago
  Wileyfox officially came with CyanogenMod. That was one of their main features. Now that CyanogenMod Inc is bust, they build their own stuff and with the Update to Android 7 you get that. Turns out they also integrated two other companies TrueCaller and Yandex.
alinspired 9y ago
This issue echoes many privacy-related discussions and the same approach for android applies here: - unlock - install minimal 3rd party ROM (ie LineageOS) - choose what you want from Google via Open Gapps or use F-droid
NeutronBoy 9y ago
> This leaves me in an unpleasant spot as I, where I can, avoid using google services and now need to find an alternative dialling application. Isn’t this sweet? I am searching for a dialling application for my smartphone. A DIALLING application You bought a Google phone and don't want to use Google services, but complain that the dialler can be provided by a third party? Isn't that a good thing?
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Why is dialing a phone a "Google Service"?
  - notatoad 9y ago
    Why shouldn't it be? Having google search directly in the dialer app is incredibly convenient - instead of searching for a phone number and then typing the number into your phone, you search for a business and call them directly.
    - tomc1985 9y ago
      Because you're dialing a phone. Nowhere does that require Google's involvement. The search feature should not be any more than an optional point of integration. Is nothing sacred anymore?
      - notatoad 9y ago
        It doesn't require it, but Google makes it better. If you're just looking to make your life easier and not paranoid, there's no downside to having google in your dialer. and no, i'm pretty sure there's nothing "sacred" about your phone.
        tomc1985 9y ago
        This is exactly the problem with technology. Asshole companies have to productify everything. It's not about being paranoid, it's about operational simplicity. Dialing a phone is dialing a phone; not everyone wants Google to think for them The act of punching in a number should not require any outside services or assistance or requirements. If there are value-added components to add then they can manifest as modular extras or in another part of the device. This is a violation of user expectations and runs contrary to 75+ years of muscle memory. (And to add... dialing a phone should be a core, fundamental, and inviable aspect of smartPHONE and its OS, not something OEMs can swap out) Watching technology companies supplant (erm, "disrupt") established and proven tech with their crap is extremely depressing. We had nice things, and then we threw them away because we are stupid and lazy. Why do "technologists" ruin everything? "Smart" my ass.
leeoniya 9y ago
i just bought a Volkswagen, which comes with Car-Net, which apparently relays telemetry to Verizon Telematics via a 3G connection. oh and there's a gps reciever and an in-car microphone. their privacy policy is scary. https://carnet.vw.com/web/vwcwp/privacy-policy https://carnet.vw.com/web/vwcwp/privacy-policy dealer refuses to disable or remove this carnet module. their "solution" is to tell me just not to sign up for the services. ummm..lol no. needless to say i'm taking matters into my own hands via vw message boards and: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/ http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/ may have to physically remove the module and/or neuter the antenna.
johnhenry 9y ago
Unfortunately, in this day and age, I don't think it's reasonable to expect privacy even from a first party application.
mmmBacon 9y ago
I was out riding motorcycles with a friend. He went down and was pretty broken up. As the ambulance loaded him up, I tried to use his Android phone to call his wife to let her know he had been hurt and what hospital he was being taken to. It was a stressful situation but I could not find the phone function at first easily (no idea which distribution). The phone function is still really important!
- brokenmachine 9y ago
  I know it wouldn't have enabled you to call his wife, but just for people who might be reading this: You can do an emergency call without even unlocking the phone. At least in Australia I'm pretty sure it is a requirement to be able to make emergency calls immediately. Even though my phone has a pattern lock, there's an icon of a telephone handset that you can swipe to make an emergency call without unlocking.
- ptaipale 9y ago
  Over here (Finland, EU) there used to be standardisation that a mobile phone must be able to make an emergency call even when the phone is locked, and even when the phone's own carrier is out of coverage, or when there is no SIM card - the call must be routed as a guest in any GSM network that is there. That may now have changed, because the user instructions for iPhone say (translation mine): "iPhone can be used to make emergency calls in many locations, if mobile services are available, but you should not trust on it in cases of emergency". Yes, apparently iPhone user instructions say that when you're in an emergency, don't count on iPhone. You should carry a phone with you in addition to iPhone. When dialing 112, the phone goes to a special mode: the call is prioritised (if the cell is full, another call is dropped) and if carrier's network is not there, the phone tries any other network. (I've seen this work on my phone, but that time it didn't help, the guy died.)
10165 9y ago
Is it true that carriers are increasingly switching to calling over WiFi? I understand the new iPhones have this feature, with switchover happening automatically. Did the popularity of Facetime, WhatsApp, etc. have anything to do with this? I have seen claims from carriers that WiFi calling "improves coverage". At some stage, will anyone question what is the point of the cellular network? Especially in urban areas. What is the difference between a. a "smartphone" and b. a portable, pocket-sized computer with rechargeable battery where the user chooses what to install and can remove any pre-installed software, where user gets a choice of 1. using pre-installed software and default settings or 2. using her own bootloader, kernel and userland, and where the user can easily open the case and tinker. Does a computer need to have any association with the company selling internet access? Today's "phones" are manufactured for carriers (who are often ISP's, too), not for users. The carriers in turn sell these customized "phones" to users.
- voltagex_ 9y ago
  There's a few things at play here: * https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203032 https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203032 WiFi Calling, which is (AFAIK) prioritised VoIP. Helps offload some calls from the provider's network which may help in congested areas * https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203124 https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203124 VoLTE. Voice over LTE, rather than GSM (?) channels. Highly prioritised VoIP over LTE data. Should improve call quality via better voice codecs. Seems to simplify tower equipment for the telcos - Telstra in Australia has some "4G Only" towers in a few places where "standard" voice calling is unavailable. VoLTE isn't particularly widely available here. Really happy to be corrected here - this is interesting stuff.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    Sprint's older WiMax systems (4G), when enabled, would put all calls over IP (starting with the HTC Evo 4G). It ate through battery though.
thuruv 9y ago
Whether thats a Google service or not, the OP has clearly stating the point that the problem he's facing now will have an evolution and affect even us in future.
notsohuman 9y ago
Somethings wrong with the idea that there can be apps installed in your phone that could do things you don't know
ranveeraggarwal 9y ago
Which is why I switched to Google-made phones (Nexus). No bloat, frequent security up dates and default apps. Sure, Google knows what I'm having for dinner, but it's a single entity I trust. At least I don't go about moving through apps, reading their TnCs.
shipintbrief 9y ago
Something is wrong when OP writes about dialer app that sells your private info were installed on device without any warnings — and everyone tells the OP that they don't really use phone app. Makes me question the humanity.
jaimex2 9y ago
And this is yet another reason why Cyanogenmod no longer exists.
lujingfengjeff 9y ago
paixun
steveharman 9y ago
Aren't there loads of free "phone" (dialer) apps in the Play store? Just use one of those?
guy-brush 9y ago
I just updated the article to include further emails from truecaller and wileyfox.
loueed 9y ago
Many companies are betting that phones will be phased out for augmented reality glasses. Magic Leap, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, and Apple all have teams working on it. People expect these devices to accept sim cards, will this break the confusion? My Smartglasses are a personal computer that also has phone functionality.
bbulkow 9y ago
One thought. A company like WileyFox must spend significant bucks to provide after-the-fact engineering to provide updates. It would be a classic error to underestimate the cost of ongoing engineering, and provide a lower up front cost, then be strapped for cash later. At that point, WileyFox management needs a revenue stream to provide the engineering to push 7.1.1. It would - again I am guessing - typically turn to outside companies who pay for placement, like the dialer. Those companies make money by selling data. Thus I am not surprised that this is happening, although I had not heard of WileyFox until today. It's also possibly WileyFox is greedy, but I'm going with incompetence; I will believe first that someone made a mistake in pricing and planning, and they're looking for the best outcome for customers, company, brand. I am, perhaps uncomfortably, saying that "you got an unexpectedly low price" going with a company like WileyFox. They gave you a cheaper phone, and frequent updates, and now they need to pay for it. They could either start charging subscriptions for the 7.1.1 update ( which would be fair, no? ), or they could do what they are doing by making a deal with what sounds like a shady dialer company, or they could bail out and not provide the updates they promised ( like most handset providers do ). I could get all high-horse about software consumers being trained to expect free software. That expectation being set by the billions of dollars in VC money that has been spent to capture markets - markets that later require "exploitation". But I won't go there - it's a complicated argument, there are other market forces, there are models that work, companies can be "up front" about data-driven business models. My way of saying - you do have to pay for software, you took the 7.1.1 update, you should expect to pay..... right?
skewart 9y ago
One of the central complaints in the blog post is that it's too hard to get your hands on an Android phone that doesn't come with impossible-to-remove bloatware. I've been amazed and annoyed by this too. I understand all the reasons why manufacturers add these apps to the phone. But still, I would gladly buy a phone that came with a stripped down version of Android, no bloatware, and received regular updates and security patches. Sure, you can root your phone, and there are various ROMs out there that you can install. But as someone who's never done this it seems kind of complicated and annoying. I want a simple experience where it just works right out of the box. Heck, I'd be happy if to buy a phone from someone who just resells devices after flashing a decent ROM onto them and makes updates easy somehow.
- SXX 9y ago
  > Heck, I'd be happy if to buy a phone from someone who just resells devices after flashing a decent ROM onto them and makes updates easy somehow. Sadly this would be useless without Google Apps and it's license forbid it. Google doesn't care as long as you install GApps on your own device, but anyone who try to sell would clearly trigger lawsuit.
InclinedPlane 9y ago
It's fine. If you want a phone just for voice go buy a flip phone, they are basically free and plans are cheap. If you want a smartphone, then deal with the implications.

598 points by guy-brush 9y ago

You don't need to root a phone to install a new operating system. What you do likely need to do is unlock the bootloader, if at all possible. If it's supported by LineageOS, use that instead. If not - perhaps consider buying a phone that is. If you're really privacy conscious, perhaps look at the CopperheadOS options - they're specifically known for privacy. Other than that, this is the sad state of big data and advertising. Unless you fight back agasint it, everything about you is going to be poked, proded, and collected for futher processing and aggregation. Hell, a lot of you probably work in that industry here. You should not assume that any device manufacturer has your interests in mind, as the trends have overwhelmingly shown that anything proprietary always leads to them finding a way to further line their pockets as interest for their product wanes, or their investors get greedier. These are facts of life; take action but don't be surprised when you're being misled and taken advantage of when you're putting the trust of something so integral in a proprietary party. Godspeed.

patmike830 9y ago

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gumby 9y ago

I don't agree. It's simply that some vendors are untrustworthy. Frankly if the telephone app on my "phone" stopped working I wonder how long it would take me to notice.

wlesieutre 9y ago
If the dialer stopped working I'd never notice, but if the phone app broke entirely I'd stop getting calls from telemarketers and loan scams.
- tzakrajs 9y ago
  And vacation sweepstakes, and shitty recruiters, and IRS scams, and... This must be the elephant in the room. Traditional telephony has become dominated by bad actors. They hit a critical mass and now my phone app is a waste of space.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    I've always found it weird how everyone I know seems much more cautious about phone usage than me: for example, I've never understood why people don't answer numbers they don't recognize. I'm slowly realizing that this is because apparently people are inundated with spam calls? I think I may have received one solitary spam call in my entire life. I can't really account for the discrepancy
    - muppetman 9y ago
      Where do you live? I'm the same, 0 spam calls ever, but I live in NZ.
      - __jal 9y ago
        Looking over my call log, I have five incoming from humans I wanted to hear from over the last seven days. I have 27 from random numbers/places that I know from experience are scams. This is a US number. If you find your life lacking opportunities to get in to obscenity shouting matches with random con artists, it is great! Otherwise, not so much.
        muppetman 9y ago
        Wow, that's terrible. No wonder Google Dialer has a spam filter - I never understood the point of it but now I do.

Voloskaya 9y ago

Or that just means that we still call the device in our pocket a "phone" for legacy reasons. If we are okay with having a third party handles our messages, VoIP etc, why not the phone app?

nkrisc 9y ago
I don't carry a phone in my pocket, I carry a personal computer that also makes voices calls over cellular networks.
- badloginagain 9y ago
  Obligatory link to Cory Doctorow's 'War on General Computing': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg
  - nkrisc 9y ago
    This was new to me, thank you! The video helpfully has a transcript: https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcript.md https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcrip...
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  I've been joking lately that there is a new one syllable word for "personal computer": phone. At the current rate that's how the language will shift. I suppose we'll know if people start referring to things like "macOS deskphones" and think "laptop" always meant "laptop phone". :) It's like those futurist ads from the 50s (and 80s/90s) AT&T that soon there will be phones capable of amazing things everywhere in our lives, except they aren't all AT&T branded and most of them started with the name "personal computer". (Though savor the irony that Ma Bell's legacy lives on in Linux by way of Bell Labs' contributions to Unix.) Then again, I'm also strongly for renaming 3D Printers to facsimile machines because the word fax is too useful to lose to ancient toner-based modem printers.
  - 9y ago

gruez 9y ago

https://www.wileyfox.com/the-brand https://www.wileyfox.com/the-brand >UNRIVALLED PRIVACY AND SECURITY >Choose precisely the data you wish to share; protect apps with additional PINs; prevent spam with Truecaller Integrated Dialler. So their idea of privacy is privacy from everyone except the manufacturer (and "trusted" third parties) >Of course, you can always root the phone and install custom roms. But this process takes some time and the development and compatibility with these roms is less than satisfactory. Maybe he shouldn't have bought a device with such a small userbase?

guy-brush 9y ago
> Maybe he shouldn't have bought a device with such a small userbase? Yes, I think I did a mistake there. On the other hand, there are small brands which are incredibly open about hardware and software development, such as [1]. I want to stress that the current state of compatibility to smartphone operating systems is really not satisfying. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/
zifnab06 9y ago
FWIW their phones originally ran CyanogenOS. They're in the process of updating to stock android [1], after cyanogen's recent layoffs/pivot/rebranding/disaster [2]. [1] http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/31/after-cyanogen-collapse-wileyfox-is-working-on-its-own-software-updates-for-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/31/after-cyanogen-colla... [2] http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/11/28/cyanogen-inc-will-shutter-seattle-office-by-end-of-year-more-layoffs-happening-kondik-could-be-out/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/11/28/cyanogen-inc-will-sh...
- bbulkow 9y ago
  This. CyanogenOS couldn't make money, and WF has trouble making money, because everyone else subsidises the cost of the handset and software by selling data. If you want to provide what they claim - unparalleled security and privacy - you have to charge more, or charge a phone subscription fee for updates, or something. One can't expect to get subsidized-by-data-selling prices, and have no data selling.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Animats 9y ago

It's a real problem. Are there any voice dialing programs for Android phones which do voice recognition locally and don't require Google services? That's the way it used to work until Google broke it so they could monitor all your dialing.

bostand 9y ago
Google in 2007: Do no evil. Google in 2017: Skynet didn't build itself people! We need more ML training data!
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  Skynet v. 0.1 didn't build itself. Clearly, though, once it becomes a minimum viable product, it will produce the next generations of itself. Or will it? If it's an AI intent on approximating human speech processing, why should it be any good at programming? See also https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9658524/1/Branches-on-the-Tree-of-Time https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9658524/1/Branches-on-the-Tree-....
  - wayn3 9y ago
    I wonder what makes people think that an AI needs to be able to code to improve itself. I don't see infant brains "programming" themselves to get better. The next step in programming is probably not anything like programming. Machine learning certainly isn't. Creating a neural net that achieves superhuman image recognition takes 30 lines of code in keras. And terabytes of training data. But the programming doesn't look anything like someone in the 90s would have thought. Except maybe for a bunch of AI researchers.
    - abakker 9y ago
      Thinking about the way we learn, I'd say it is a LOT like programming ourselves. Study and Practice both have aspects of learning to do steps in a mechanism to achieve an outcome, and each of us has to build that mechanism from scratch. The difference is that not all of us need to be self aware for the process to continue working. However, the best of us seem to have very detailed systems worked out for "programming ourselves".

mcherm 9y ago

I completely disagree with the title. The fact that "telephony" can be an app on the phone is a WONDERFUL thing. It means that the author of this article has a choice, as opposed to NOT having a choice.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
So, out of curiosity, at this point what are his choices?
- freeone3000 9y ago
  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.dialer&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... . This is the "Google Dialer". This is one example; there are dozens more.
  - muppetman 9y ago
    The Google Dialer only works on Stock Android. Which is a shame.
    - bostand 9y ago
      This could be fixed if Google considers this a problem. Remember when they added Google calendar to Play to fight Samsungs BS?
      - djsumdog 9y ago
        To be fair, the "Samsung BS" was them trying to setup a separate ecosystem that was just as good in case they needed to break from Google. I really hope Samsung does this at some point too. I feel there are enough people that don't want eyeProducts that we'd finally see some innovation in 3rd party markets ... or everyone would just install Samsung/Google/Amazon stores ..
    - PascLeRasc 9y ago

TheCabin 9y ago

I just came across this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/696dre/warning_to_all_wileyfox_owners_your_location_data/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/696dre/warning_to_...

bostand 9y ago
Oh, Yandex... So lovely. Of course if NSA has my data its only fair that FSB also gets some too...

accountyaccount 9y ago

Disagree entirely. The stock phone app is likely the least used app I keep on my phone.

guy-brush 9y ago
My main point is actually that I am forced to use this dialler without my consent. I am not trying to say that users shouldn't be able to customise the system but I am opposed to manufacturers forcing data-hungry 3rd party programs on customers.
- esMazer 9y ago
  at the same time, we can choose to install a different third party dialer no? maybe what we need is a 3rd party dialer that pledges privacy.
  - bostand 9y ago
    The point is, this should not happen to core functionality. Specially not sneaky like this.
    - NikolaeVarius 9y ago
      Define core functionality. We are carrying computers that happen to have a radio that can communicate with cell towers. The phone functionality is just as "core" as any other service that the OS exposes. (Camera, Web Browser, GPS)
      - kuschku 9y ago
        If it's in the /system partition, it shouldn't be able to do any data collection or bound to any companies' services. Anything bound to any companies' services or doing any data collection should be entirely user-controlled and user-replacable.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago

mtkd 9y ago

I fought having a phone through to 2008 - now I'm reconsidering wanting one again if there was a pure messaging device right now with no voice - I'd bite their hand off I don't need a mobile browser or even apps - all they do is stop me from disconnecting from work for a few minutes or hours - I don't think always-on is good for anyone over time

thomk 9y ago
https://www.apple.com/ipod/ https://www.apple.com/ipod/
- mtkd 9y ago
  you can't get SMS I need a 2 week battery life, LCD screen, SMS/pager thing, with a Blackberry physical keypad and no voice or apps - and a simple mute switch
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    So get an old blackberry and turn on call barring.
  - bgun 9y ago
    So build your own. http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ Manufacturers are under no obligation to provide you with a device to your particular specification, unless of course you are the one paying them under contract them to do so.
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      > Manufacturers are under no obligation to provide you with a device to your particular specification I don't think wishing that a niche was filled constitutes assuming that manufacturers have any obligation.
      - 9y ago

TheStrangBird 9y ago

Well in the end modern smartphones are just general purpose computers which have some artificial restrictions on what you can do with them and happen to have a touchscreen/modem/speaker/microphone etc. So the dieler just being a app is a direct consequence from smartphones not being any kind of "special/magical" embedded device. Through silently overriding the Dialer with a program I would normally suspect to be malware which sneaked on my phone is a horrible think to do...

bostand 9y ago

This why we need [edit] GDPR. Next time someone tries to harvest my personal data using an "all-inclusive" EULA I'm going to sue his ass in EU-land.

xemdetia 9y ago
GPDR is actually GDPR in case you are trying to read up on what that means and don't know already.
- Shendare 9y ago
  Thanks. I like GDPR anyway. Makes me think God Damn Privacy Rules, and we're increasingly lacking in effective ones.
- ShaneOG 9y ago
  Which is the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)[0] [0] - http://www.eugdpr.org http://www.eugdpr.org

pilot72 9y ago

You purchased a Chinese mobile phone and it installed spyware in an update. Anybody who's ever purchased a mobile from eBay or AliExpress has already seen that. They need to get their revenue from somewhere. Next time stick to a known, trustable brand.

AngeloAnolin 9y ago

Did I read that correctly? Isn’t this sweet? I am searching for a dialling application for my smartphone. A DIALLING application. Does this mean he can't practically call someone outside his contacts list as there's no way to key in phone numbers? Or would he still be able to make regular voice calls?

muppetman 9y ago
He can't make calls, because he disabled the dialer app. The functionality is still there in the phone, but he has no app that exposes it. Android truely does provide enough "rope" to hang yourself if you start to disable apps you shouldn't.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Yeah, the thing is, if dialer is an app you "shouldn't disable", then it also should not be silently replaced by the vendor with third-party service, with no easy way to revert that.

bighi 9y ago

You're not only using Android, but you're using an Android phone from a smaller company. While this is bad, it's not really unexpected.

mdekkers 9y ago

truecaller is something alltogether evil

on_and_off 9y ago

What exactly is wrong with the dialler being an app ? It allows exactly what the author wants with his specific desire for a dialler that does not rely on play services or true caller.

imron 9y ago
From the article: "When You install and use the Services, Truecaller will collect personal information from You and any devices You may use in Your interaction with our Services. This information may include e.g.: geo-location; Your IP address; device ID or unique identifier; device manufacturer and type; device and hardware settings; SIM card usage; applications installed on your device; ID for advertising; ad data, operating system; web browser; operator; IMSI; connection information; screen resolution; usage statistics; default communication applications; access to device address book; device log and event information; logs, keywords and meta data of incoming and outgoing calls and messages; version of the Services You use and other information based on Your interaction with our Services such as how the Services are being accessed (via another service, web site or a search engine); the pages You visit and features you use on the Services; the services and websites You engage with from the Services; content viewed by You, content You have commented on or sent to us and information about the ads You see and/or engage with; the search terms You use; order information and other usage activity and data logged by Truecaller’s servers from time to time. Truecaller may collect some of this information automatically through use of cookies and You can learn more about our use of cookies in our Cookie Policy" and "We transfer information to trusted vendors, service providers, and other partners who support our business and Services, such as providing technical infrastructure services, bug testing, analyzing how our Services are used, measuring the effectiveness of ads and services and facilitating payments as well as potential partners who may wish to work with us to provide other services."
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Again, if the dialer is a system component does this and you can't remove it, you are out of luck. Since the dialer is an app, if for some reason you don't like it, you can deactivate it (you can't uninstall preloaded apps since they are on a private system partition, but disabling it is enough : it does not appear in the app least and can't startup). So you just have to install another that suits you better.

timsayshey 9y ago

Too much traffic -- couldn't access the page. Here's the cached version: http://archive.is/vs4a7 http://archive.is/vs4a7

ianseyler 9y ago

My iPhone is my pocket computer. It's on a tablet plan (data only - up to 1GB for $20 CAD) because voice and text is something I would hardly use. TextNow worked fine for me in past for phone calls and texting non-apple devices but I've since switched to Hushed as my go-to. I've never used the built in "Phone" app.

PascLeRasc 9y ago
What do you do about phone interviews?
- ianseyler 9y ago
  TextNow/Hushed provides me with a local number to use. Any "burner" phone app should work as well for that.

fulafel 9y ago

How do I find a dialer app that's cloud-free?

onli 9y ago
I haven't used it yet, but a quick search on F-Droid showed https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=dialer&fdid=org.dnaq.dialer2 https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=dialer&fdid=..., which looks promising. I fit still works on a current android, but at least F-Droid marks it as compatible.

ris 9y ago

So what makes you think Apple or Google aren't using your call information for advertising purposes in the default diallers?

krrrh 9y ago
Apple's record on privacy and business model give me pretty high confidence on this one. Google may have an incentive to add call info to the profile they keep on you, but surely you're not thinking that they are as big of a privacy risk as some random third-party that puts a dialer up on the play store. Edit: I couldn't get the article to load, so I'm going by the other comments to assume this was about scammy dialers tricking regular users on Android into installing them. Obviously a dialer on a custom ROM modified for extra privacy is a justifiable reason for making it replaceable on Android.
- tomkarlo 9y ago
  He's actually writing about the dialer that comes with the device OS (in this case an OTA, I believe, but still, it's the default / 1P dialer. It just happens to be a branded one rather than the "usual" white label dialer a smaller OEM might provide.

walrus01 9y ago

I have never heard of a "Wileyfox Swift". If you need an awesome and capable Android 7.0 based dual SIM phone with zero carrier crapware/bloatware and a close to stock Android experience, the OnePlus 3T (64 or 128GB version) is a good choice. Since Oneplus' falling out with Cyanogen Inc, and the financial failure of Cyanogen, Oneplus' own OxygenOS is essentially a re-implemented CyanogenMod that has all of the same features.

edwintorok 9y ago
I've almost buyed the Wileyfox Swift last week, but I'm glad that I've seen discussions around Truecaller and the Zen ads, which changed my mind and opted for a BQ Aquaris X5 Plus instead.
- qznc 9y ago
  I recently bought a Swift 2+. I still like it. Hopefully, Zen can be disabled with the next update: https://www.reddit.com/r/wileyfox/comments/64xga8/it_should_be_possible_to_disable_wileyfox_zen/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wileyfox/comments/64xga8/it_should_...
  - mnw21cam 9y ago
    Zen can already be disabled. Long-tap the launcher background, tap settings, and there should be a toggle labelled "Wileyfox Zen".
djsumdog 9y ago
The thing about that was, Cyanogen stayed very silent and OnePlus's entire advertising strategy was very dodgy. I suspect Cyanogen was just sick of OnePlus's shit when they signed with that 2nd Indian distributor. Now that the Cyanogen company is dissolved, who knows what the truth was. Lately I've started using CarbonRom. It's pretty nice.
- walrus01 9y ago
  no, it's actually the reverse, oneplus got sick of cyanogen's shit when cyanogen threatened to sue them for selling oneplus phones in India, which is a huge market. Cyanogen (Incorporated) claimed they had an exclusive agreement with an Indian company called Micromax to sell cynaogenOS phones in India. Oneplus got fed up and re-implemented all of the great features of cyanogenmod in their own fork of android (OxygenOS/HydrogenOS, respectively for english and chinese language markets). Cyanogen Inc ran themselves into the ground with dodgy business practices and threatening all of their partners, which resulted in no reputable phone manufacturer wanting to put their OS on any new models of phones.

Fej 9y ago

> This leaves me in an unpleasant spot as I, where I can, avoid using google services and now need to find an alternative dialling application. AOSP dialer. Done. Don't want the truedialer app? Run CM, like it says in the post.

s73ver 9y ago
You mean the thing they were running, which updated to include the 3rd party dialer app against their wishes?

mayneack 9y ago

Many have already posted about how the phone is less important than email/browser which we're ok with being 3rd party. I didn't really think there could be a difference between phone apps until I got project fi from Google. Their phone app comes with voicemail transcription and spam detection. Some of that is obviously from the service itself, but these features seem like things that I'd want to be able to acquire even if I had an AT&T Samsung (which is what I moved from and didn't have by default). Third party seems fine with me.

agumonkey 9y ago

I miss my motorola v3650.

tomkarlo 9y ago

It's always been a "telephone app", on smart phones. And in many cases, it's already been somewhat "3rd party" because in reality it's from the ODM who made your phone or the SOC vendor, not the company that branded your phone. The author is only just becoming aware that this is "3P" because he happens to have a branded dialer added on his phone, versus a "white label" dialer that was already there. I'm fairly certain Wileyfox didn't make the dialer that previously came with his phone, either. (They're a smaller OEM.) They probably just used the one provided by the ODM assembling the device for them.

bennyp101 9y ago

When I updated it at the weekend, I too noticed that the dialer had gone - which is annoying as I find the interface to Truecaller a bit of a pain - but as I rarely make calls it's something I can live with. The incoming call filtering and showing of names not in my phonebook is actually pretty useful. When I bought my Wileyfox Swift 18 months ago it came with Truecaller as an app already installed, and it integrated with the standard dialer well - ie I could use the dialer app to make calls, and incoming calls would show info from Trucaller. Not sure why they couldn't keep it like that.

tooFastFuckYou 9y ago

Android has turned out to be such a fraud.

jumpkickhit 9y ago

Funny, I'm reminded of my HP Ipaq back in 2005 or so. 800mhz smartphone with a stylus, wifi, running Windows CE. It struck me as a portable computer, with "cellphone" functionality added as an almost afterthought. Guess that's still the case if you think about it.

codewiz 9y ago

Double check which software you get with which device. Not being an apple fanboy, I have to admit: At least you know what you get when buying an Iphone. I don't understand why some people compare a $650 iPhone 7 with cheap phones loaded with some half-assed vendor fork of Android? If you wanted stock Android, you should have bought a $650 Pixel phone.

znpy 9y ago

i am still wondering how comes that nobody came up with a phone application for linux computers. I have a 3G modem in my ThinkPad X220 and i am fairly sure it is technically capable of doing and receiving phone calls.

nemoniac 9y ago

Can someone recommend a good, safe, privacy-respecting 3rd party phone app for Android, preferably for Cyanogenmod or LineageOS?

dorianm 9y ago

I thought it was about LinkedIn selling people's profiles :)

thomseddon 9y ago

Found myself in the exact same situation (have a WileyFox, updated and ended up with the awful true caller app as the default dialler + found I couldn't use the default google dialler), I've since been using: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contapps.android.dialer&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contapps.a... but it does have adverts, I'd welcome any other suggestions (aside from re-flash). Only today I was joking about how absurd it is that I was struggling with such a fundamental feature.

tdicola 9y ago

Looking at my cell phone bill I use far more data than I do actual voice a month. It's kind of an anachronism to call it a phone anymore. It's a pocket computer.

mobiplayer 9y ago
And yet calling it Pocket PC would be frowned upon :-)
sprice 9y ago
This is why I ported my phone number to Twilio and now I get an email when someone calls me with an mp3 of voicemail + transcription. And I make free outgoing calls with Google Dialer.

smnplk 9y ago

I have and idea for a VOIP app called The Stallminator. The app would feature a nice backdrop of Richard Stallman's face http://tinyurl.com/msbkwb3 http://tinyurl.com/msbkwb3

meroje 9y ago

The Swift originally shipped with CyanogenOS, which is not the same thing as CyanogenMod. CyanogenOS already featured Truecaller on the dialler to show names on incoming calls. I was confused too when the dialler disappeared from my launcher, but I use it very rarely and essentially to receive calls so not a big deal for me. I understand OP's concerns though.

dotBen 9y ago

No, this is simply proof that consumers must pick carefully the hardware vendor they decide to buy as which software it comes with will vary greatly between devices. This is simply not an issue with Google Pixel/Nexus devices, Samsung or any of the other major vendors. Running Cyanogen (which has now no longer developed) nor 'GAPPS' (Google's standard package of apps that gives you access to the Play Store, and the stock dialer) is a pretty fringe use of Android.

qznc 9y ago
Wileyfox officially came with CyanogenMod. That was one of their main features. Now that CyanogenMod Inc is bust, they build their own stuff and with the Update to Android 7 you get that. Turns out they also integrated two other companies TrueCaller and Yandex.

alinspired 9y ago

This issue echoes many privacy-related discussions and the same approach for android applies here: - unlock - install minimal 3rd party ROM (ie LineageOS) - choose what you want from Google via Open Gapps or use F-droid

NeutronBoy 9y ago

> This leaves me in an unpleasant spot as I, where I can, avoid using google services and now need to find an alternative dialling application. Isn’t this sweet? I am searching for a dialling application for my smartphone. A DIALLING application You bought a Google phone and don't want to use Google services, but complain that the dialler can be provided by a third party? Isn't that a good thing?

tomc1985 9y ago
Why is dialing a phone a "Google Service"?
- notatoad 9y ago
  Why shouldn't it be? Having google search directly in the dialer app is incredibly convenient - instead of searching for a phone number and then typing the number into your phone, you search for a business and call them directly.
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    Because you're dialing a phone. Nowhere does that require Google's involvement. The search feature should not be any more than an optional point of integration. Is nothing sacred anymore?
    - notatoad 9y ago
      It doesn't require it, but Google makes it better. If you're just looking to make your life easier and not paranoid, there's no downside to having google in your dialer. and no, i'm pretty sure there's nothing "sacred" about your phone.
      - tomc1985 9y ago
        This is exactly the problem with technology. Asshole companies have to productify everything. It's not about being paranoid, it's about operational simplicity. Dialing a phone is dialing a phone; not everyone wants Google to think for them The act of punching in a number should not require any outside services or assistance or requirements. If there are value-added components to add then they can manifest as modular extras or in another part of the device. This is a violation of user expectations and runs contrary to 75+ years of muscle memory. (And to add... dialing a phone should be a core, fundamental, and inviable aspect of smartPHONE and its OS, not something OEMs can swap out) Watching technology companies supplant (erm, "disrupt") established and proven tech with their crap is extremely depressing. We had nice things, and then we threw them away because we are stupid and lazy. Why do "technologists" ruin everything? "Smart" my ass.

leeoniya 9y ago

i just bought a Volkswagen, which comes with Car-Net, which apparently relays telemetry to Verizon Telematics via a 3G connection. oh and there's a gps reciever and an in-car microphone. their privacy policy is scary. https://carnet.vw.com/web/vwcwp/privacy-policy https://carnet.vw.com/web/vwcwp/privacy-policy dealer refuses to disable or remove this carnet module. their "solution" is to tell me just not to sign up for the services. ummm..lol no. needless to say i'm taking matters into my own hands via vw message boards and: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/ http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/ may have to physically remove the module and/or neuter the antenna.

johnhenry 9y ago

Unfortunately, in this day and age, I don't think it's reasonable to expect privacy even from a first party application.

mmmBacon 9y ago

I was out riding motorcycles with a friend. He went down and was pretty broken up. As the ambulance loaded him up, I tried to use his Android phone to call his wife to let her know he had been hurt and what hospital he was being taken to. It was a stressful situation but I could not find the phone function at first easily (no idea which distribution). The phone function is still really important!

brokenmachine 9y ago
I know it wouldn't have enabled you to call his wife, but just for people who might be reading this: You can do an emergency call without even unlocking the phone. At least in Australia I'm pretty sure it is a requirement to be able to make emergency calls immediately. Even though my phone has a pattern lock, there's an icon of a telephone handset that you can swipe to make an emergency call without unlocking.
ptaipale 9y ago
Over here (Finland, EU) there used to be standardisation that a mobile phone must be able to make an emergency call even when the phone is locked, and even when the phone's own carrier is out of coverage, or when there is no SIM card - the call must be routed as a guest in any GSM network that is there. That may now have changed, because the user instructions for iPhone say (translation mine): "iPhone can be used to make emergency calls in many locations, if mobile services are available, but you should not trust on it in cases of emergency". Yes, apparently iPhone user instructions say that when you're in an emergency, don't count on iPhone. You should carry a phone with you in addition to iPhone. When dialing 112, the phone goes to a special mode: the call is prioritised (if the cell is full, another call is dropped) and if carrier's network is not there, the phone tries any other network. (I've seen this work on my phone, but that time it didn't help, the guy died.)

10165 9y ago

Is it true that carriers are increasingly switching to calling over WiFi? I understand the new iPhones have this feature, with switchover happening automatically. Did the popularity of Facetime, WhatsApp, etc. have anything to do with this? I have seen claims from carriers that WiFi calling "improves coverage". At some stage, will anyone question what is the point of the cellular network? Especially in urban areas. What is the difference between a. a "smartphone" and b. a portable, pocket-sized computer with rechargeable battery where the user chooses what to install and can remove any pre-installed software, where user gets a choice of 1. using pre-installed software and default settings or 2. using her own bootloader, kernel and userland, and where the user can easily open the case and tinker. Does a computer need to have any association with the company selling internet access? Today's "phones" are manufactured for carriers (who are often ISP's, too), not for users. The carriers in turn sell these customized "phones" to users.

voltagex_ 9y ago
There's a few things at play here: * https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203032 https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203032 WiFi Calling, which is (AFAIK) prioritised VoIP. Helps offload some calls from the provider's network which may help in congested areas * https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203124 https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT203124 VoLTE. Voice over LTE, rather than GSM (?) channels. Highly prioritised VoIP over LTE data. Should improve call quality via better voice codecs. Seems to simplify tower equipment for the telcos - Telstra in Australia has some "4G Only" towers in a few places where "standard" voice calling is unavailable. VoLTE isn't particularly widely available here. Really happy to be corrected here - this is interesting stuff.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Sprint's older WiMax systems (4G), when enabled, would put all calls over IP (starting with the HTC Evo 4G). It ate through battery though.

thuruv 9y ago

Whether thats a Google service or not, the OP has clearly stating the point that the problem he's facing now will have an evolution and affect even us in future.

notsohuman 9y ago

Somethings wrong with the idea that there can be apps installed in your phone that could do things you don't know

ranveeraggarwal 9y ago

Which is why I switched to Google-made phones (Nexus). No bloat, frequent security up dates and default apps. Sure, Google knows what I'm having for dinner, but it's a single entity I trust. At least I don't go about moving through apps, reading their TnCs.

shipintbrief 9y ago

Something is wrong when OP writes about dialer app that sells your private info were installed on device without any warnings — and everyone tells the OP that they don't really use phone app. Makes me question the humanity.

jaimex2 9y ago

And this is yet another reason why Cyanogenmod no longer exists.

lujingfengjeff 9y ago

paixun

steveharman 9y ago

Aren't there loads of free "phone" (dialer) apps in the Play store? Just use one of those?

guy-brush 9y ago

I just updated the article to include further emails from truecaller and wileyfox.

loueed 9y ago

Many companies are betting that phones will be phased out for augmented reality glasses. Magic Leap, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, and Apple all have teams working on it. People expect these devices to accept sim cards, will this break the confusion? My Smartglasses are a personal computer that also has phone functionality.

bbulkow 9y ago

One thought. A company like WileyFox must spend significant bucks to provide after-the-fact engineering to provide updates. It would be a classic error to underestimate the cost of ongoing engineering, and provide a lower up front cost, then be strapped for cash later. At that point, WileyFox management needs a revenue stream to provide the engineering to push 7.1.1. It would - again I am guessing - typically turn to outside companies who pay for placement, like the dialer. Those companies make money by selling data. Thus I am not surprised that this is happening, although I had not heard of WileyFox until today. It's also possibly WileyFox is greedy, but I'm going with incompetence; I will believe first that someone made a mistake in pricing and planning, and they're looking for the best outcome for customers, company, brand. I am, perhaps uncomfortably, saying that "you got an unexpectedly low price" going with a company like WileyFox. They gave you a cheaper phone, and frequent updates, and now they need to pay for it. They could either start charging subscriptions for the 7.1.1 update ( which would be fair, no? ), or they could do what they are doing by making a deal with what sounds like a shady dialer company, or they could bail out and not provide the updates they promised ( like most handset providers do ). I could get all high-horse about software consumers being trained to expect free software. That expectation being set by the billions of dollars in VC money that has been spent to capture markets - markets that later require "exploitation". But I won't go there - it's a complicated argument, there are other market forces, there are models that work, companies can be "up front" about data-driven business models. My way of saying - you do have to pay for software, you took the 7.1.1 update, you should expect to pay..... right?

skewart 9y ago

One of the central complaints in the blog post is that it's too hard to get your hands on an Android phone that doesn't come with impossible-to-remove bloatware. I've been amazed and annoyed by this too. I understand all the reasons why manufacturers add these apps to the phone. But still, I would gladly buy a phone that came with a stripped down version of Android, no bloatware, and received regular updates and security patches. Sure, you can root your phone, and there are various ROMs out there that you can install. But as someone who's never done this it seems kind of complicated and annoying. I want a simple experience where it just works right out of the box. Heck, I'd be happy if to buy a phone from someone who just resells devices after flashing a decent ROM onto them and makes updates easy somehow.

SXX 9y ago
> Heck, I'd be happy if to buy a phone from someone who just resells devices after flashing a decent ROM onto them and makes updates easy somehow. Sadly this would be useless without Google Apps and it's license forbid it. Google doesn't care as long as you install GApps on your own device, but anyone who try to sell would clearly trigger lawsuit.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

It's fine. If you want a phone just for voice go buy a flip phone, they are basically free and plans are cheap. If you want a smartphone, then deal with the implications.