31 ms·

As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

219 points by wallflower 10y ago

rdiddly 10y ago
"From the Devonport ferry, passengers can get a view of downtown Auckland." ...IF they would just look up from their phones. Humorous photo. Illustrates something though, which is that the more you "court" people from the USA (presumably on the basis that your country is so different from and far from the USA) the more your country starts to resemble the USA.
jankotek 10y ago
Ireland is similar, minus the isolation. In Shannon you can leave a car 100 meters from terminal, and board direct US flight in 30 minutes.
- ivm 10y ago
  Ireland is under the radar. One more hidden gem is Chile, especially considering land/property prices and freelance-friendly visas.
  - GFischer 10y ago
    Salaries in Chile aren't that great though (except for some top-level talent I guess). I've been told about USD 3000/month tops. But it's definitely the best country in South America for IT talent. I live in Uruguay, and Americans think it's great, but it's not (barring an exceptional job offer/salary as usual). Lots of jobs but very low paying (USD 1000/month take home salary for entry level dev, USD 2000 for experienced dev. Gross salary can be almost twice because taxes are very harsh) and extremely expensive on a standard salary. We do have a tremendous amount of immigrants from the poorer Latin American countries, especially Venezuela and Dominican Republic.
    - ivm 10y ago
      Sure and also most of the jobs are in Santiago which is somewhat crowded and polluted. But it's great here if you work remotely due to the time zone close to the US.
    - fernly 10y ago
      In my post-election funk last fall I was researching places to get the hell out to, and discovered Uruguay, as a very attractive possibility for a decent place to live -- provided one had good Spanish. But you say wages are low? How much of a tech industry is there?
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  Has the Dublin property bubble burst yet? Our's hasn't :(
nandreev 10y ago
Has anyone here made the move? It would be interesting to hear some real life stories, and post honeymoon-phase pros/cons evaluation of NZ.
- bovermyer 10y ago
  Not recently, but I made the move in 2000, and ended up returning to the USA in 2004. I'm sure the country has changed in the last decade, but one thing's for sure: saying that the cost of living is cheaper than San Francisco is like saying that Ferrari is cheaper than Pagani. Also, in addition to the relatively high cost of living (housing in particular is terrible, especially in Auckland), the level of bureaucratic nonsense is very high. My parents owned a restaurant and grocery that targeted American expats, and the red tape they had to go through was much higher than just about anywhere in the USA. The tech scene was very young when I lived there, with very little community. I'm curious if that's changed.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Not me, but I knew someone who moved to Christchurch. He had to delay his interview because the office was demolished by an earthquake. He loves the place, but I think would agree with the "poor housing" comments upthread - inexplicably under-insulated.
  - EdwardDiego 10y ago
    Yeah, as a Kiwi, I get very envious of housing quality when I travel to Europe. That said, we are (belatedly) fixing the problems in new builds at least, and there have been attempts to bring our rental stocks up to scratch in terms of insulation, but the issue being our centre-right government really doesn't like rocking the baby boomer boat (who make up the majority of our landlords), and so went for a carrot with no stick solution.
- scalatohaskell 10y ago
  I have, from EU. I've been living in Auckland for 2 years. Scala dev. I left recently though. I think I may have good perspective, shoot me questions if you want.
humanrebar 10y ago
> For all sorts of reasons, New Zealand suddenly makes sense. The cost of living is less than in San Francisco. Commuting is less wearying. And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world. For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. You especially don't have to go to New Zealand to find a cheaper, commuter-friendly place to work. Nothing against New Zealand. I'm sure it's a great place to live. The writing in the article is just sloppy.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  But, like Tulsa, I'd be worried about what happens when that tech company, which I moved myself and my family halfway around the world for, goes under and I'm out of work. I'm sure there is more than one tech company in Auckland, but how many? And how many of those will want to hire me? And out of those how many will I want to work for? And out of those, how many will pay enough where it makes sense for me to stay? Those questions have to be raised outside of tech hubs. I used to live in a very low cost of living area in Florida. I'd go back in a heartbeat, but guess what, there was literally one company within a 100 mile (probably 200 mile) radius hiring software people like me. That's too damn risky.
  - flexie 10y ago
    Wouldn't most tech guys be able to support a family working for any of the local web developers, app developers or IT departments of non tech companies that you find all over Florida, New Zealand and most of the Western world? In urban areas of Florida and New Zealand you will find these jobs everywhere within a 5 mile radius. Maybe not always so interesting or well paying as some jobs in IT corporations, but good to have as a plan b. $50,000 in Fort Lauderdale is as good as $120,000 in the valley.
    - theparanoid 10y ago
      Working in a software company is qualitatively different than working in an IT department. One of them gets first dibs on dual monitor desktops. The other is cost center.
djoldman 10y ago
What are the internet throughput and latencies for typical setups in residential locations in New Zealand? What about more expensive commercial setups?
- HXFIVE 10y ago
  75% of the population will have access to fibre at gigabit speeds by 2019 [1]. Coverage will increase to 84% by 2024. Not sure about latencies off the top of my head, but there are several new international cables under construction [2] which will help which accessing sites hosted overseas. [1] https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/ https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/ [2] http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/ http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/
  - vbitz 10y ago
    I get 200ms latency to my Linode server in Dallas, Texas testing from the North Island. Australia and South East Asia are between 40 and 100ms normally.
  - justinclift 10y ago
    That nice for 2019. How about atm though? :)
    - anentropic 10y ago
      it's fine if you're in an urban area
    - HXFIVE 10y ago
      The rollout started a number of years ago. They're already over 70% of the way towards the 75% target.
- jordanthoms 10y ago
  If you find somewhere with UFB access (you can check the maps here: http://ufb.org.nz/maps/ http://ufb.org.nz/maps/ ) then you'll be able to get up to 1000mbit down/500mbit up with a choice from 10+ ISPs. UFB is available in most of the main centers now, though there are still frustrating gaps in coverage, and then you'll be on some variant of ADSL. There is talk of upgrading the UFB technology from connections from the current 2.5Gbit GPON to 10G-PON also, so they'll be able to offer even faster connections. Latency and international bandwidth can be bigger issues, US is between 150-250ms, Australia 60-120ms, UK ~300ms. It actually has a pretty significant impact on how 'snappy' browsing feels - Facebook, HN etc feel faster in the US even on a slower connection. Server-grade/Datacenter transit is very expensive here, especially for international bandwidth. Many of the hosting/VPS companies here (like sitehost.co.nz ) have unlimited national bandwidth and then very small international caps.
interfixus 10y ago
Great for the Kiwis. I wish them well. But regrettably, I lack the patience to read past an intro sort of equating the ramifications of Brexit with those of Islamic State. Could journalism please step outside for a minute and perform a reality check?
- zimablue 10y ago
  Brexit is arguably much more destructive to Britain than Isis to the US. In the absence of major casualties economic impact is relevant. It wiped 10% of the pound's value out and there will be more impact before we're done. The day Isis knocks 10% off the dollar...
  - mywittyname 10y ago
    Not even arguably. Hell, Brexit is more destructive to Americans than ISIS is.
- bovermyer 10y ago
  Take care to not blame all of journalism for one author's missteps.
- barrkel 10y ago
  Brexit is worse for Britain than IS. IS's ability to project power adds up to a week or two's car accidents. It's insignificant.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Ramifications are still unclear, but if we end up in the situation where the Home Office decides that 3m Europeans here on Free Movement don't get to stay there will be a huge mess, potentially with blood on the streets. Not to mention that last week senior Conservatives were talking up war with Spain over Gibraltar. Is this meaningless jingo garbage for the press or a likely outcome? Who knows?
  - interfixus 10y ago
    Sounds to me like you're saying the UK could end up being held hostage against its scheduled, voluntary, legal exit from a cooperation it joined in 1973 with full assurances that it would always have the option of leaving.
eggie5 10y ago
I'm in that looksee contest the article says got works wide interest but when I look at the online dashboard it says only 556 people are registered and in the running....
- random_rr 10y ago
  Me too - I stopped participating after they announced a security leak a few weeks ago.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- joenot443 10y ago
  Yeah - I'm very curious for where that 48,000 figure comes from.
TheAlchemist 10y ago
That's interesting ! I'm intending to make a move with my family in near future, and we actually went to visit the northern island for 15 days last month. The country is really beautiful, and there are not a lot of people around, so you can't help but feel blessed by the surrounding nature. The people are great, probably the nicest I've ever seen (as a whole). I've noted some cons though (not blocking for us thankfully): - housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage... - housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe) - prices are generally quite high - internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back - outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any interesting opportunities in IT (that's a subjective and based on a very limited evidence from discussions with local / personal observations) - food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time. Would be very happy to hear stories that made the move ! Also very interested to hear about opportunities / work environment there in IT (even better if it's ML related).
- bspn 10y ago
  I too am considering a move to NZ for family reasons, and visited Auckland last month. It truly is a spectacular city framed by an amazing harbor, but it's not without some faults. My thoughts on the cons you raise based on conversations I had with a few locals: > housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage.. Yes, it really is crazy particularly when you look at prices relative to salaries. As I understand it, the primary driver is everyone wants to live in Auckland as that's where most of the higher paying jobs are located which is driving up prices. Also, given the city is on an isthmus, the main space is really North and South of the city which increases commute times on already clogged highways. > housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe) This is slowly changing as proper insulation becomes a requirement, but compared to Europe and US houses the quality is incredibly poor. > prices are generally quite high For consumer goods, absolutely. Also dining out seemed expensive, but supermarket costs seemed pretty reasonable given the quality of the food. >internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back I was pleasantly surprised by this. I was regularly getting 50-100 down where I stayed, and it appears the government has made ultra-fast broadband a national priority so it should hopefully continue to improve over the next decade. One thing people warned me though is don't expect anything to happen quickly in NZ. >outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any interesting opportunities in IT Have you looked at Christchurch? Apparently the government is incentivizing companies to build there with the goal of making it the high tech capital of the South Island. I believe Vodafone has some pretty impressive plans for the city. >food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time. I believe this is largely driven by income inequality, much like here in the US. While the food really is phenomenal quality, families at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder are often priced out of the market and default to unhealthy options as a matter of necessity. Also, it was explained to me that a lot of Maori and Polynesian recipes are very fatty which is why they tend to be over-represented in obesity statistics. Overall my impression after visiting is that it's a great country, but it's not perfect. Prices are higher (due to it's isolation) and salaries are lower, but people tend to worry less about materialistic things and "getting ahead". There seems to be more of a relaxed mood to everything and as my wife contemplate where we want to raise our kids that is hugely appealing.
zinckiwi 10y ago
I'm an expat kiwi would would have loved to move back from the US over the past few years, but unfortunately it suffers from a similar problem to the San Fran/SV scene here. Most tech employers are in Auckland, and the housing prices are insane. Remote work isn't embraced even a tenth of what it could or should be. I love it there, but for the kind of environment I'd need (affordable family home + strong job propsects) we've just been priced out in our time away.
- knz 10y ago
  Likewise. It's hard to justify moving back when you look at housing costs (especially if you live somewhere with low cost of living and high wages).
- flog 10y ago
  Ditto – I think even on a like-for-like comparison housing in SF (I just moved to Alameda) is cheaper than back in Auckland/Wellington. Wages are certainly higher anyhow.
- Taniwha 10y ago
  Do what I did - move back home somewhere cheap, keep your US job. Living in Dunedin on my silicon valley salary, as I have for the past 15 years or so (I lived in the Bay Area for 20 years), is a good place to be, trading my over-inflated Bay Area house for a good mortgage free one here helps too.
systems 10y ago
New Zealand, Australia and Canada are nowadays the primary destination for skilled worker immigrants They are the future ... Europe and USA will have to rely on in house minds .. which I believe will bring more equilibrium to this world USA, Europe and Japan are not going anywhere I am not predicting their demise .. just that CANZAU will be the beacon
- ctvo 10y ago
  [Giant Citation Required] Those three countries you grouped together are very different in terms of compensation, quality and volume re: tech companies. Australia leads in all three while quality and volume are an issue in NZ and Canada's compensation vs. the cost of living in its larger cities (Vancouver, Toronto) feels very off.
  - systems 10y ago
    from the future but still works :P https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-up-and-coming-startup-center/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-u... or the corresponding hn link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053
nbrempel 10y ago
If you like the sound of NZ but don't want to commit to such a big move, come check out British Columbia. We're like NZ lite. :)
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Not very isolated, only a few hours from Seattle if you live where all the tech jobs are.
- harigov 10y ago
  I don't think you can say that about weather. If BC is anything like Seattle, it's gloomy for most of the winter.
- wired8 10y ago
  NZ lite... more like the inverse. Vancouver and specifically BC has a lot of similarities to NZ yes, including the frequent liquid sunshine. Having spent approx half my working life in (Wellington/Vancouver) I'd say Vancouver would be a more natural fit for our US cousins. However that said you can't beat NZ for internal travel, day trips, adventure tourism. Its basically a compact version of British Columbia.
  - Taniwha 10y ago
    Remember than NZ is a long thin country that spans very roughly the same distance north-south as the US West Coast (it's just that you grew up with those maps where the Northern Hemisphere is twice the size of the Southern). It also spans roughly the same range of climates - Dunedin where I live is Seattle/VancouverBC sort of climate (and the southern West Coast is very Olympic Peninsular subtropical rain forest). On the other hand Auckland/Northland is Californiaish but with more tropical moisture because we're an island and not a continent
anupshinde 10y ago
New Zealand isn't cheaper. If you compare it to SF and NY, yes it will look cheaper. But otherwise its costlier for some people(immigrants) who wish to come in. Financially, its not important what you earn, its important how much can you keep/save. From a financial perspective - NZ salaries are relatively lower compared to its costs of living. A well paid tech guy from India would save a lot more in SF than they can ever do in NZ. For talented senior developers in India, they lose financially by going to NZ. And lack of (job) options is quite visible. From a non-financial perspective - NZ is one of the best countries to live in. But just that is not going to bring you the top-tech-talent.
besogno 10y ago
It all revolves around jobs in which face-to-face spitting is deemed essential. My own job is about programming. I do that from Southeast Asia nowadays. I wonder why I would ever consider doing that from New Zealand? I would not make one more dollar while I would spend truck loads on things that I do not need, such as taxes and inflated housing cost, and what have you.
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  The taxes pay for a healthy society.
Gatsky 10y ago
I love NZ... but I live in Melbourne, Australia and there are tons of kiwis here (including many close friends and colleagues). They come here because salaries are better, adjusted cost of living is less and there are just more opportunities for professionals. Australia isn't perfect but I'm not really sure that NZ is a more attractive destination for tech workers.
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  You forgot that a) it's warmer and b) Melbourne has a sweet nightlife - not surprising when it has the same population as our entire country. Yeah, come to New Zealand because you like mountains and temperate rainforests. Not to advance your IT career. I think in 20 years time that may change though - the tyranny of distance applies less to software than other products.
juskrey 10y ago
The truth is that people registered there for a free trip.
lubujackson 10y ago
I know several kiwis and my wife has traveled there extensively. The biggest issues seem to stem from "island culture" which means: - Most things are expensive and lower quality than you are used to. Furniture, housing, food, etc. Simply because of isolation and logistics. - Poor job market, terribly poor for most people. - Which leads to rules making it much harder to move to NZ long term. Unless you meet some high bars (several million dollars in the bank or married to a kiwi, etc.) it is hard to get permanent residence there. On the other hand, it is one of the most beautiful and rugged countries in the world. An unlike Australia, every plant and animal is not actively trying to kill you.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  > Most things are expensive and lower quality than you are used to With offshore manufactured things, yes. With handmade stuff, which is more expensive, I'd have no doubts rating it very highly.
- feelix 10y ago
  > every plant and animal is not actively trying to kill you It's the opposite here. There are no harmful animals anywhere. You can go walking through the wilderness bare foot (which I have done many times) without fear
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  > Which leads to rules making it much harder to move to NZ long term. Unless you meet some high bars (several million dollars in the bank or married to a kiwi, etc.) it is hard to get permanent residence there. You forgot the 3rd option - be on a skills shortage list. We hire many developers/testers from overseas and they have no issue obtaining PR or citizenship. > Poor job market, terribly poor for most people. Define 'poor' - our unemployment rate is slightly above the US unemployment rate, and in my area (Canterbury, main city Christchurch), unemployment is 3.7%. We do have a "low wage" economy thanks to a neoliberal government crushing the unions in the 90s, but this doesn't really apply to developers.
- dvtv75 10y ago
  I lived in Dunedin. Items there were charged at rates suitable for wealthy tourists. Pay rates were legal minimums, although the added extras you had to provide for your work were well outside any legal rights employers have. For my last job, I used my PC and other personal equipment just to do my job, while my employer sat back and raked in the cash. (Almost literally, they would pay $6k in wages and $0 for equipment while billing $60+k for a job. One guy I know who took a similar role in the business has had a verbal warning for not doing his job properly, so he's providing his own equipment.) A friend of mine lives in Auckland. A year or so back, he explained that his rent had more than doubled in a single day. (He was on a fixed term lease that expired, he went to renew it, and the rent went up but his income didn't.)
agentile 10y ago
A while back I was going through the immigration process for NZ with an immigration lawyer and had all the points necessary and was moving on to the interview phase. My wife and I ultimately decided to stop as she became pregnant and didn't want to be as far away from family. That and the flight/quarantine times that would be imposed for our dogs. Another big issue was taxes. To my knowledge NZ and USA are two countries that will try to tax you wherever you live until you die unless you renounce citizenship. So dealing with being double taxed on income from NZ and USA was a big deal as well. Whenever I read these articles, it does sound so appealing. My sister has lived there for many years and the quality of life just seems so much better.
- anentropic 10y ago
  I don't think that's true about NZ tax http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/filing-your-return/overseas/iit-overseas.html http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/filing-your-ret... I have heard that USA does that though
  - agentile 10y ago
    Yes, I may have that wrong. At the time I was a contractor so the fear was the following situation per "If you're a New Zealand resident, you're taxed on your worldwide income." If we wanted to eventually become residents of NZ, which we did, and I was obtaining income in the US, NZ and US would both tax me for that income. It seemed, however, less likely that NZ would approve me for immigration if I was not intending to contribute my talents to a company within NZ, so in that case, if I obtained a job in NZ, I would be taxed in NZ, and US would again tax me as well for that income due to US citizenship.
    - EduardoBautista 10y ago
      > NZ and US would both tax me for that income. Declaring your income does not mean that both will tax you.
      - 10y ago
draw_down 10y ago
Isolation sounds good. Super high housing costs relative to wages sounds... familiar, shall I say.
rconti 10y ago
Funny how it goes from appealing to "American Lord of the Rings nerds and Peter Thiel" really quickly. Had our honeymoon in New Zealand and really loved it. Auckland and Wellington are both beautiful, but, frankly, I'd rather be somewhere more relaxed like Nelson. I wish we had spent more time enjoying the south island and less time up north. Not so practical if you're trying to find work, though, I suppose. (I didn't make it to Christchurch). The housing prices really did surprise, though. Granted, most places I looked at housing costs were more "wandering around town, find real estate office, look at what's in the window" so it ended up being expensive places like Auckland, Queenstown, Wanaka, etc, but it was still quite surprising, and left me wondering how anyone could afford it without bringing in money from the outside. Then again, the grass is always greener -- I moved from Seattle to the SF area 15 years ago for the better weather and better traffic (don't laugh!) yet every time I travel, I find myself drawn to living in places like Reykjavik, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Nelson, etc. I'm sure the realities of the climates of these various places would come to me after the novelty wore off. And perhaps I just look fondly upon them because they remind me of "home" -- even though I was so happy to leave it.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  My target is to live in Sweden after I finish grad school. I've been looking at ECE positions to gauge the market, and it strangely seems pretty small. The good thing is that Sweden has a special 1 year work visa deal with several countries including Australia, which I am a citizen of. My plan is to use that year to do some direct job hunting and also make sure I like the country!
  - wingworks 10y ago
    You'll love it, I was there for a few weeks last year, and loved every minute! (I'm from NZ)
    - Cyph0n 10y ago
      That's great to hear; it is an amazing country after all! I always joke with my family that if I could choose my country of origin, it would be Sweden! My parents (originally Tunisian) usually end up nodding in agreement :)
Proven 10y ago
Bullshit. Pay more or lower the criteria without lowering the pay and you'll see. Socialist fools @NYTimes
madengr 10y ago
"ISIS on the other side of the world"; nice. I assume NZ does not have the same immigration policy that is importing ISIS to Europe.
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cylinder 10y ago
I love how these comments always boil down to salary and cost of living arguments. People, (mostly Americans), you're doing it wrong. What kind of fool moves to a remote island in the middle of nowhere and then expects to somehow still earn as much as in the United States? This is not the right reason to expatriate. Go because you love NZ (or X country) not because you want to leave America. Go because you like the lifestyle and traditions the locals live, not because you want to transport your high earning consumer abundance life into a different country. You will be doomed for failure if you do.
- mavdi 10y ago
  I did that and pretty much earn what I used to earn in London. Perhaps a little more. There are excellent options for talented techies, need a little bit of trust in yourself and you're all set.
- wingworks 10y ago
  Exactly this! ^
- lacampbell 10y ago
  I don't think "being able to afford a comfortable house" should be considered some kind of luxury.
gravypod 10y ago
I don't think New Zealand's selling point will ever be isolation. To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bother you. New Zealand is very beautiful and interesting but there are still many laws and many people who want to bother you. Maybe this is "isolation" in a previously unheard of, to me, sense where you just don't want to be a citizen of a major nation or something? I don't know. For what I think of as "isolation" NZ is too draconian. Higher taxes and stricter laws really make it a no go for many people. When 50k USD lands you in the highest tax bracket (30%), when everything tech related is more expensive, and you're a software engineer it's a hard sell. NZ's biggest selling points are low crime, low unemployment, interesting area, and attractive social programs. It's definetly not an isolationist paradise unless you define isolationist as being "not in America, Middle East, or Europe" which this article seems happy to do.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is. It's low relative to the OECD and, depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    > Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is Well if it's so low I wouldn't mind sending you my paypal. You can always send me some supplimental money if you don't think the government is taking enough from you. We can think of it as wealth redistribution to a poor college student. > It's low relative to the OECD If I'm focused on isolating myself from everyone why would I care about what other OECD members are doing? > depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier I don't think someone, who is attempting to isolate themselves from other people, would want to deal with this sort of thinking. If this is how New Zealander's think then they're not going to see many hermits swimming their way over the pond and lining up for land. These processes will undoutably create the need to interact with other people to prevent yourself from being arrested or fined heavily. This is the exact opposite of what someone who would like to isolate themselves from the rest of the world would want.
throwaway729 10y ago
> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. Really only the cost of living. > Commuting is less wearying Not really. There's a near zero percent chance your commute involves anything other than driving. The walkable areas of midwestern cities are certainly cheaper than SF, but they're also not exactly cheap. You're still looking at half a million for a decent house, 200k for a decent condo, and that's on a midwestern salary. Not to mention the weather. And if you're driving, well, driving is driving. > And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world... [can be avoided] Especially if you stay off Facebook. I mean, I guess you can just avoid talking to people altogether, but avoiding Facebook is no way to avoid the nastier parts of American populist politics in the midwest, which is decidedly Trump's America. On my last visit I learned that there are still people who very strongly believe that Obama is a Muslim and Clinton is a witch (literally, as in worships satan. I'm not exaggerating and they weren't being coy with language). And I wasn't even seeking them out, they were just the people I was obligated to spend time with. So no, the midwest isn't some cheaper version of California. There's a reason why people like me leave after a few decades and never look back. The weather sucks, the cities are either unlivable or not appreciably cheaper, and there's a high concentration of extremely unpleasant people.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and people like Jeff Speck preach the gospel as far as I'm concerned - but I'll take a daily 20 minute drive over an hour hopping on and off trains any day of the week - especially when I can do so from my nice, comfy Lexus or whatever. You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. >And don't get me started on the casual racism/homophobia. The Midwest is Trump's America. In-laws firmly believe Obama is a Muslim and that Hillary Clinton is a witch. I'm not exaggerating for effect, and they're not being coy. Sincerely held beliefs. Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid. My parents don't think Obama is a Muslim , aren't at all racist, and they voted for Trump. I don't think Obama is a Muslim (I voted for him both times) and I don't like Hillary. So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones.
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Glyptodon 10y ago
Sooo in my view this helps prove that there's not so much a developer shortage as a failure in recruitment and hiring practices in the US.
mhoad 10y ago
Some really interesting numbers looking at various cost of living expenses and local purchasing power between say San Francisco and Christchurch here https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=New+Zealand&country2=United+States&city1=Christchurch&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
blanket_the_cat 10y ago
Cool, now you can help develop clever mechanisms to exfiltrate information and wealth from end users and consolidate capital into the hands of those who already possess more than they need, from the picturesque, rolling green hills of sunny New Zealand... Wake me up when the tech scene in Monrovia is booming out of control.
geebee 10y ago
New Zealand does sound pretty incredible. A massive national park, the size of California, with only 5 million people, and very liveable and appealing cities. Here's the thing. Would New Zealand stay that way if it pursued a policy of large scale immigration, they way the US has? The US takes well over a million new immigrants into the country every year. 10 years of our immigration would triple the size of New Zealand. I'm sure they could find takers. Plenty of people would love to move to New Zealand. I do wonder why the US, which takes over a million immigrants a year, takes so much heat for enforcing immigration policy, while New Zealand receives so much praise for being an ideal society. It sounds like New Zealand may use its selectivity to allow in immigrants, but only those likely to contribute significantly to the bottom line. In a way, their exclusivity may actually help them cherry pick the very best. As strategy, I get it. But again, the NYTimes has been immensely critical of deportations in the US. Why do they give NZ a pass on this? And if they're going to praise New Zealand, doesn't that mean they're praising a very limited immigration policy? I mean, how about this last quote: “It’s boom time for the next 10 years,” Mr. Drury said. The more immigrants, the better. “We’ll take a lot. We’ll take hundreds.” Woah, not hundreds?
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  For decades New Zealand has had trouble attracting immigrants. And they lose a lot of young talented native Kiwi people to places like the U.S., Australia, and Great Britain. There's really no comparison between the US and New Zealand when it comes to immigration. They're opposites. And, let's see how this latest attempt to attract high-skill immigrants goes. It's easy to romanticize New Zealand when you've spent your whole life in big US cities. Moving there is another thing entirely. It is remote and mostly rural. I will not be surprised if most Americans who go there come back within a few years.
- qume 10y ago
  NZ takes in 50k and have a population of 4mm. So 1 per 80 population. US takes in 1mm per 300mm population, or 1 per 300. NZ takes proportionately much more than the US. A similar calculation can be done for immigrants per area of land.
40_pending 10y ago
How bizarre. I specifically relocated from NZ to the U.S. because of the lack of job opportunities in the Tech industry. I'd been looking for a job for over 9 months in New Zealand. I flew into the U.S. to visit my dad and applied for some jobs and had an offer within two weeks. Not only is the cost of living cheaper here (where I'm located at in the U.S.), but my salary is much better off at about 30,000 higher than what I ever made in NZ. If politics is what's motivating your relocation to a country like New Zealand, let me assure you, local politics are just as silly if not more so over there. Not only that but people are just as obsessed with American politics, and as an American, you will be singled out for these political discussions often. You may even find yourself discriminated against for your origins and nationality as I often did.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  What was your salary in NZ?
  - 40_pending 10y ago
    My last salary was about 70,000 NZD, which is less than $49,000 USD. I now make $87,000 USD (about 124,000 NZD), and I've got a written agreement for a raise to $95,000 in about another six months (135,000 NZD). The most I ever made in NZ was one year where I worked two different contractor jobs at about 60 hours per week and I brought in maybe 80k NZD ($56,000 USD). I now make $31,000 USD more than that at just 40 hours of work per week.
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      Are you a junior dev? Those contracting rates are awful. I'd class 70k as great for a junior, mediocre for intermediate and a joke for a senior. Wonder if they low-balled you for being a foreigner. FWIW as a NZer you hit the nail on the head about the anti-americanism, and simultaneous obsession with american politics.
      - driverdan 10y ago
15charlimit 10y ago
Good luck courting new tech talent when existing tech talent gets hung out to dry at the first hint of pressure. See Kim Dotcom's troubles for reference.
- nebabyte 10y ago
  Oh not 'actual' techies that envision the world embracing a new information era, we just want the code monkeys that know enough to pursue the profit motive for us and have internalized the idea that such a role is so in-demand that we can thus get them to do cheaply come now
- RantyDave 10y ago
  Oh, really. Kim Dotcom has managed to avoid extradition for five years, that's hardly being hung out to dry.
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very popular with the locals. A different government may have had a stronger spine. You also forgot the part where Kim Dotcom is a convicted fraudster, who was making money through deliberate violation of copyright, is all tech talent like him? Oh, and then there was the time he tried to get involved in NZ politics. That was not superpopular.
  - vorg 10y ago
    > a convicted fraudster, who was making money through deliberate violation of copyright Violating copyright is not a crime in NZ, neither is it when former felons do it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very popular with the locals. The NZ government still refuses to let US warships that may be nuclear powered into our ports, and thus has no free trade deal with the worlds largest economy. Instead we have a free trade deal with Red China, which is now colonising us.
jostmey 10y ago
There's something special when a certain density of talented people live together. Moving toward an isolated environment is never a good idea. I'm sure the title is a little misleading. Disclaimer: I have nothing against New Zealand and I am no fan of San Francisco
- sbardle 10y ago
  Moving towards an isolated environment is pretty much what pioneers do. If they succeed, people will follow and new networks develop.
milesrout 10y ago
Yuck. This whole thing is a massive failure, and will always be a massive failure. New Zealand does not need to 'court tech talent'. New Zealand has a net exodus of trained IT professionals, and the reason for that is low wages. That's the simple reality. So what do companies that are starved for people do? They don't raise their wages, as the market would dictate. They make plenty of money, they COULD raise them. No, instead they just lobby the Government to put software engineering on the rubbish that is the 'skills shortage list', the biggest scam around. Then the Government makes it almost trivial for people to immigrate here if they can claim to be a software engineer, and suddenly there's no problem: plenty of supply. The net result is New Zealanders go and work in the U.K. or the U.S., and are then replaced with Indians who come to work here in New Zealand. That's a stupid way of doing things. The skills shortage lists should be abolished and those companies should actually raise their wages if they want to keep graduates and experienced developers in NZ, and attract actual talent (as opposed to poorly paid immigrant workers and people coming in on student visas, getting internships and then getting jobs here). I know that this is HN and I'll almost certainly get banned for saying this, but it's quite right that Peter Thiel's bullshit citizenship has created an uproar in New Zealand. He's someone that has made money, like every other billionaire in existence, through exploiting other people, and then has turned around and used that money to fund meaningless crap startups and is now buying his way into small countries. New Zealand legalised gay marriage well before the US did. We are a very liberal country, both economically and socially - not in the sense that Americans think that word has, but in the actual literal meaning of the word 'liberal' - and we don't appreciate the Government expediting the citizenship application of the sort of person that would donate to Donald Trump. Anyway, the only thing Rod Drury wants is more workers, more labour, less wages, less costs. He's a businessman.
lacampbell 10y ago
A lot of Americans seem to have an idyllic notion of moving to NZ - often for political or LOTR movie reasons. If you're even toying with the idea, do yourself a favour and check out the following: - Salaries - Housing price - Housing quality - expect to pay top dollar for luxuries like insulation, double-glazed windows, and kitchens built within the last few decades. - The cost of a car, and the size and quality of the roads - The cost of electronic appliances, food, etc Completely unrelated, what's the going salary for an intermediate programmer/analyst in one of those really flat US states full of cornfields?
- debacle 10y ago
  The politics of New Zealand, especially when it comes to land rights + individual freedoms, can be enlightening.
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    How so?
    - bootload 10y ago
      Waitangi. The successful negotiation of land with Māori. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi
      - antome 10y ago
        Kiwi here, what happened is moreso that the British accidentally gave the Maori more rights than they anticipated in the translation, and as the country became more progressive in the 20th century, the govt decided to respect those rights.
- sitharus 10y ago
  Also while the food is high quality don't expect the variety you're used to. Until recently NZ had a pretty bland palette.
rdl 10y ago
If Pacific Fibre had happened in New Zealand, I'd seriously consider living there. Unfortunately it died for a combination of not raising enough money (sigh) and trumped-up US national security concerns (they were planning to use Huawei equipment).
angryteabag 10y ago
As a New Zealander who wants to move to the USA, swap? (jk immigration laws make it impossible)
zoom6628 10y ago
Folks - a kiwi here. There are loads of tech companies in NZ and in the past developers are attracted by the lifestyle. Orion in the health space, Xero SaaS accounting system, Navman, hell even the first GSM controlled Coke vending machine was from NZ. GPS chips for mobiles invented by Radon, and we of course have Tait Electronics in Christchurch who do military comms gear - everybody who wants the best for the most extreme environments buys their gear. Auckland house prices pushed up a load by Chinese families needing somewhere safe to put their cash outside of China. And the only thing they could put into was housing. As to quality of housing its different to Europe because of the cliate duh! Solid stone and brick houses are not suited to temperate climates. And yes they are smaller than American houses because NZers dont live inside all year round. If its cold or wet, then just tough up, wear more clothes, and get on with your ife instead of hiding in your concrete bunker with the central heating on (you wont find those either). First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-do' prevails.
LouisSayers 10y ago
As a Kiwi, here are my thoughts: Isolation: yes, you are away from the troubles of the world, but it also means you'll be away from your families, you don't get Amazon Prime, and surprisingly you won't have as many Netflix movies to choose from. Don't expect to miss gridlock traffic, or be living in a Hobbit house lol Costs: Don't expect NZ to be super cheap. Housing prices are ridiculous and often won't have much in terms of insulation and heating. Food prices will be fairly normal (although you will have a diverse selection, and it's generally good quality), and you're simply not going to get paid as much as you would in major centres elsewhere in the world. Phone and internet plans are going to be expensive. Also, take into account those flights home you'll be making - they won't come cheap. Entertainment: There will be fun things to do for sure, but don't expect as much as what you might get in other major cities. NZ is however great for sports, and you'll fit right in if you have a sporting hobby or two. People: NZ has a diverse population, and has a unique culture. Don't expect it to be like wherever else you're from. As a kiwi, I love the NZ culture - I love that people will stop and help you out, that police are friendly and non-threatening, and that we have the ability to laugh at ourselves, and not take things so seriously. Just like anywhere however, you do run into dickheads every now and then. All in all, NZ is a "pretty choice" (pretty good) place to live. I imagine it'd be quite a bit of a culture shock for some people though, and it's not all cherries and rainbows. Some people might find it a little boring, others might like the chilled atmosphere and laid-backness.
sbardle 10y ago
I think NZ could become a major tech hub over the next 15 years. The geographical isolation will be alleviated by the internet and the development of faster air travel. For anyone interested in tech, wanting to start up or grow in NZ, check out the Edmund Hilary fellowship.
tjpnz 10y ago
Low pay, corrupt politicians, high crime, polluted lakes and rivers. What's not to like?
zoom6628 10y ago
First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-do' prevails.
grappler 10y ago
For me there is an undeniable appeal to “voting with your feet” after the result of the voting at the ballot box turned out so poorly. I personally likely won't be impacted too badly by Trump and his supporters. I may have economic options here that are as good as or better than my options anywhere else. But I feel a need to put some distance between this country and myself now. It doesn't represent me anymore. I don't belong to it anymore. I'm not ok with the decision it made. I've even felt that it ceased to be a place worth caring about. There are just a couple things that pull me back from this line of thinking: A broader view of history and a broader view of alternative places in the world. History: The last election may be the biggest step backward my country has taken since I was born, but I don't get to pretend that it was so wonderful before that. Yes, we all know this. But I just relearned it even more forcefully in a piece I read a couple weeks ago: http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-to-america/ http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-to-... Places in the world: If I'm going to leave for the reasons above, I need good reasons why another place is better. But every place has its downsides. There probably is a good case to be made in favor of a number of places, but if I'm going to be honest about this, I need to research it and not move reflexively without knowing a lot about the place I'm moving to. And if I do move somewhere, I should do it with some degree of commitment to put some effort into making that place better. Otherwise any anti-immigration sentiments that exist there will probably be right about me. Being able to chose your home, rather than having to stay where you were born, is a valuable thing. But at some point it is good to choose a home and invest in it.

219 points by wallflower 10y ago

"From the Devonport ferry, passengers can get a view of downtown Auckland." ...IF they would just look up from their phones. Humorous photo. Illustrates something though, which is that the more you "court" people from the USA (presumably on the basis that your country is so different from and far from the USA) the more your country starts to resemble the USA.

jankotek 10y ago

Ireland is similar, minus the isolation. In Shannon you can leave a car 100 meters from terminal, and board direct US flight in 30 minutes.

ivm 10y ago
Ireland is under the radar. One more hidden gem is Chile, especially considering land/property prices and freelance-friendly visas.
- GFischer 10y ago
  Salaries in Chile aren't that great though (except for some top-level talent I guess). I've been told about USD 3000/month tops. But it's definitely the best country in South America for IT talent. I live in Uruguay, and Americans think it's great, but it's not (barring an exceptional job offer/salary as usual). Lots of jobs but very low paying (USD 1000/month take home salary for entry level dev, USD 2000 for experienced dev. Gross salary can be almost twice because taxes are very harsh) and extremely expensive on a standard salary. We do have a tremendous amount of immigrants from the poorer Latin American countries, especially Venezuela and Dominican Republic.
  - ivm 10y ago
    Sure and also most of the jobs are in Santiago which is somewhat crowded and polluted. But it's great here if you work remotely due to the time zone close to the US.
  - fernly 10y ago
    In my post-election funk last fall I was researching places to get the hell out to, and discovered Uruguay, as a very attractive possibility for a decent place to live -- provided one had good Spanish. But you say wages are low? How much of a tech industry is there?
EdwardDiego 10y ago
Has the Dublin property bubble burst yet? Our's hasn't :(

nandreev 10y ago

Has anyone here made the move? It would be interesting to hear some real life stories, and post honeymoon-phase pros/cons evaluation of NZ.

bovermyer 10y ago
Not recently, but I made the move in 2000, and ended up returning to the USA in 2004. I'm sure the country has changed in the last decade, but one thing's for sure: saying that the cost of living is cheaper than San Francisco is like saying that Ferrari is cheaper than Pagani. Also, in addition to the relatively high cost of living (housing in particular is terrible, especially in Auckland), the level of bureaucratic nonsense is very high. My parents owned a restaurant and grocery that targeted American expats, and the red tape they had to go through was much higher than just about anywhere in the USA. The tech scene was very young when I lived there, with very little community. I'm curious if that's changed.
pjc50 10y ago
Not me, but I knew someone who moved to Christchurch. He had to delay his interview because the office was demolished by an earthquake. He loves the place, but I think would agree with the "poor housing" comments upthread - inexplicably under-insulated.
- EdwardDiego 10y ago
  Yeah, as a Kiwi, I get very envious of housing quality when I travel to Europe. That said, we are (belatedly) fixing the problems in new builds at least, and there have been attempts to bring our rental stocks up to scratch in terms of insulation, but the issue being our centre-right government really doesn't like rocking the baby boomer boat (who make up the majority of our landlords), and so went for a carrot with no stick solution.
scalatohaskell 10y ago
I have, from EU. I've been living in Auckland for 2 years. Scala dev. I left recently though. I think I may have good perspective, shoot me questions if you want.

humanrebar 10y ago

> For all sorts of reasons, New Zealand suddenly makes sense. The cost of living is less than in San Francisco. Commuting is less wearying. And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world. For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. You especially don't have to go to New Zealand to find a cheaper, commuter-friendly place to work. Nothing against New Zealand. I'm sure it's a great place to live. The writing in the article is just sloppy.

ryandrake 10y ago
But, like Tulsa, I'd be worried about what happens when that tech company, which I moved myself and my family halfway around the world for, goes under and I'm out of work. I'm sure there is more than one tech company in Auckland, but how many? And how many of those will want to hire me? And out of those how many will I want to work for? And out of those, how many will pay enough where it makes sense for me to stay? Those questions have to be raised outside of tech hubs. I used to live in a very low cost of living area in Florida. I'd go back in a heartbeat, but guess what, there was literally one company within a 100 mile (probably 200 mile) radius hiring software people like me. That's too damn risky.
- flexie 10y ago
  Wouldn't most tech guys be able to support a family working for any of the local web developers, app developers or IT departments of non tech companies that you find all over Florida, New Zealand and most of the Western world? In urban areas of Florida and New Zealand you will find these jobs everywhere within a 5 mile radius. Maybe not always so interesting or well paying as some jobs in IT corporations, but good to have as a plan b. $50,000 in Fort Lauderdale is as good as $120,000 in the valley.
  - theparanoid 10y ago
    Working in a software company is qualitatively different than working in an IT department. One of them gets first dibs on dual monitor desktops. The other is cost center.

djoldman 10y ago

What are the internet throughput and latencies for typical setups in residential locations in New Zealand? What about more expensive commercial setups?

HXFIVE 10y ago
75% of the population will have access to fibre at gigabit speeds by 2019 [1]. Coverage will increase to 84% by 2024. Not sure about latencies off the top of my head, but there are several new international cables under construction [2] which will help which accessing sites hosted overseas. [1] https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/ https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/ [2] http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/ http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/
- vbitz 10y ago
  I get 200ms latency to my Linode server in Dallas, Texas testing from the North Island. Australia and South East Asia are between 40 and 100ms normally.
- justinclift 10y ago
  That nice for 2019. How about atm though? :)
  - anentropic 10y ago
    it's fine if you're in an urban area
  - HXFIVE 10y ago
    The rollout started a number of years ago. They're already over 70% of the way towards the 75% target.
jordanthoms 10y ago
If you find somewhere with UFB access (you can check the maps here: http://ufb.org.nz/maps/ http://ufb.org.nz/maps/ ) then you'll be able to get up to 1000mbit down/500mbit up with a choice from 10+ ISPs. UFB is available in most of the main centers now, though there are still frustrating gaps in coverage, and then you'll be on some variant of ADSL. There is talk of upgrading the UFB technology from connections from the current 2.5Gbit GPON to 10G-PON also, so they'll be able to offer even faster connections. Latency and international bandwidth can be bigger issues, US is between 150-250ms, Australia 60-120ms, UK ~300ms. It actually has a pretty significant impact on how 'snappy' browsing feels - Facebook, HN etc feel faster in the US even on a slower connection. Server-grade/Datacenter transit is very expensive here, especially for international bandwidth. Many of the hosting/VPS companies here (like sitehost.co.nz ) have unlimited national bandwidth and then very small international caps.

interfixus 10y ago

Great for the Kiwis. I wish them well. But regrettably, I lack the patience to read past an intro sort of equating the ramifications of Brexit with those of Islamic State. Could journalism please step outside for a minute and perform a reality check?

zimablue 10y ago
Brexit is arguably much more destructive to Britain than Isis to the US. In the absence of major casualties economic impact is relevant. It wiped 10% of the pound's value out and there will be more impact before we're done. The day Isis knocks 10% off the dollar...
- mywittyname 10y ago
  Not even arguably. Hell, Brexit is more destructive to Americans than ISIS is.
bovermyer 10y ago
Take care to not blame all of journalism for one author's missteps.
barrkel 10y ago
Brexit is worse for Britain than IS. IS's ability to project power adds up to a week or two's car accidents. It's insignificant.
pjc50 10y ago
Ramifications are still unclear, but if we end up in the situation where the Home Office decides that 3m Europeans here on Free Movement don't get to stay there will be a huge mess, potentially with blood on the streets. Not to mention that last week senior Conservatives were talking up war with Spain over Gibraltar. Is this meaningless jingo garbage for the press or a likely outcome? Who knows?
- interfixus 10y ago
  Sounds to me like you're saying the UK could end up being held hostage against its scheduled, voluntary, legal exit from a cooperation it joined in 1973 with full assurances that it would always have the option of leaving.

eggie5 10y ago

I'm in that looksee contest the article says got works wide interest but when I look at the online dashboard it says only 556 people are registered and in the running....

random_rr 10y ago
Me too - I stopped participating after they announced a security leak a few weeks ago.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
joenot443 10y ago
Yeah - I'm very curious for where that 48,000 figure comes from.

TheAlchemist 10y ago

That's interesting ! I'm intending to make a move with my family in near future, and we actually went to visit the northern island for 15 days last month. The country is really beautiful, and there are not a lot of people around, so you can't help but feel blessed by the surrounding nature. The people are great, probably the nicest I've ever seen (as a whole). I've noted some cons though (not blocking for us thankfully): - housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage... - housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe) - prices are generally quite high - internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back - outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any interesting opportunities in IT (that's a subjective and based on a very limited evidence from discussions with local / personal observations) - food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time. Would be very happy to hear stories that made the move ! Also very interested to hear about opportunities / work environment there in IT (even better if it's ML related).

bspn 10y ago
I too am considering a move to NZ for family reasons, and visited Auckland last month. It truly is a spectacular city framed by an amazing harbor, but it's not without some faults. My thoughts on the cons you raise based on conversations I had with a few locals: > housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage.. Yes, it really is crazy particularly when you look at prices relative to salaries. As I understand it, the primary driver is everyone wants to live in Auckland as that's where most of the higher paying jobs are located which is driving up prices. Also, given the city is on an isthmus, the main space is really North and South of the city which increases commute times on already clogged highways. > housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe) This is slowly changing as proper insulation becomes a requirement, but compared to Europe and US houses the quality is incredibly poor. > prices are generally quite high For consumer goods, absolutely. Also dining out seemed expensive, but supermarket costs seemed pretty reasonable given the quality of the food. >internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back I was pleasantly surprised by this. I was regularly getting 50-100 down where I stayed, and it appears the government has made ultra-fast broadband a national priority so it should hopefully continue to improve over the next decade. One thing people warned me though is don't expect anything to happen quickly in NZ. >outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any interesting opportunities in IT Have you looked at Christchurch? Apparently the government is incentivizing companies to build there with the goal of making it the high tech capital of the South Island. I believe Vodafone has some pretty impressive plans for the city. >food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time. I believe this is largely driven by income inequality, much like here in the US. While the food really is phenomenal quality, families at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder are often priced out of the market and default to unhealthy options as a matter of necessity. Also, it was explained to me that a lot of Maori and Polynesian recipes are very fatty which is why they tend to be over-represented in obesity statistics. Overall my impression after visiting is that it's a great country, but it's not perfect. Prices are higher (due to it's isolation) and salaries are lower, but people tend to worry less about materialistic things and "getting ahead". There seems to be more of a relaxed mood to everything and as my wife contemplate where we want to raise our kids that is hugely appealing.

zinckiwi 10y ago

I'm an expat kiwi would would have loved to move back from the US over the past few years, but unfortunately it suffers from a similar problem to the San Fran/SV scene here. Most tech employers are in Auckland, and the housing prices are insane. Remote work isn't embraced even a tenth of what it could or should be. I love it there, but for the kind of environment I'd need (affordable family home + strong job propsects) we've just been priced out in our time away.

knz 10y ago
Likewise. It's hard to justify moving back when you look at housing costs (especially if you live somewhere with low cost of living and high wages).
flog 10y ago
Ditto – I think even on a like-for-like comparison housing in SF (I just moved to Alameda) is cheaper than back in Auckland/Wellington. Wages are certainly higher anyhow.
Taniwha 10y ago
Do what I did - move back home somewhere cheap, keep your US job. Living in Dunedin on my silicon valley salary, as I have for the past 15 years or so (I lived in the Bay Area for 20 years), is a good place to be, trading my over-inflated Bay Area house for a good mortgage free one here helps too.

systems 10y ago

New Zealand, Australia and Canada are nowadays the primary destination for skilled worker immigrants They are the future ... Europe and USA will have to rely on in house minds .. which I believe will bring more equilibrium to this world USA, Europe and Japan are not going anywhere I am not predicting their demise .. just that CANZAU will be the beacon

ctvo 10y ago
[Giant Citation Required] Those three countries you grouped together are very different in terms of compensation, quality and volume re: tech companies. Australia leads in all three while quality and volume are an issue in NZ and Canada's compensation vs. the cost of living in its larger cities (Vancouver, Toronto) feels very off.
- systems 10y ago
  from the future but still works :P https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-up-and-coming-startup-center/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-u... or the corresponding hn link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053

nbrempel 10y ago

If you like the sound of NZ but don't want to commit to such a big move, come check out British Columbia. We're like NZ lite. :)

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Not very isolated, only a few hours from Seattle if you live where all the tech jobs are.
harigov 10y ago
I don't think you can say that about weather. If BC is anything like Seattle, it's gloomy for most of the winter.
wired8 10y ago
NZ lite... more like the inverse. Vancouver and specifically BC has a lot of similarities to NZ yes, including the frequent liquid sunshine. Having spent approx half my working life in (Wellington/Vancouver) I'd say Vancouver would be a more natural fit for our US cousins. However that said you can't beat NZ for internal travel, day trips, adventure tourism. Its basically a compact version of British Columbia.
- Taniwha 10y ago
  Remember than NZ is a long thin country that spans very roughly the same distance north-south as the US West Coast (it's just that you grew up with those maps where the Northern Hemisphere is twice the size of the Southern). It also spans roughly the same range of climates - Dunedin where I live is Seattle/VancouverBC sort of climate (and the southern West Coast is very Olympic Peninsular subtropical rain forest). On the other hand Auckland/Northland is Californiaish but with more tropical moisture because we're an island and not a continent

anupshinde 10y ago

New Zealand isn't cheaper. If you compare it to SF and NY, yes it will look cheaper. But otherwise its costlier for some people(immigrants) who wish to come in. Financially, its not important what you earn, its important how much can you keep/save. From a financial perspective - NZ salaries are relatively lower compared to its costs of living. A well paid tech guy from India would save a lot more in SF than they can ever do in NZ. For talented senior developers in India, they lose financially by going to NZ. And lack of (job) options is quite visible. From a non-financial perspective - NZ is one of the best countries to live in. But just that is not going to bring you the top-tech-talent.

besogno 10y ago

It all revolves around jobs in which face-to-face spitting is deemed essential. My own job is about programming. I do that from Southeast Asia nowadays. I wonder why I would ever consider doing that from New Zealand? I would not make one more dollar while I would spend truck loads on things that I do not need, such as taxes and inflated housing cost, and what have you.

EdwardDiego 10y ago
The taxes pay for a healthy society.

Gatsky 10y ago

I love NZ... but I live in Melbourne, Australia and there are tons of kiwis here (including many close friends and colleagues). They come here because salaries are better, adjusted cost of living is less and there are just more opportunities for professionals. Australia isn't perfect but I'm not really sure that NZ is a more attractive destination for tech workers.

EdwardDiego 10y ago
You forgot that a) it's warmer and b) Melbourne has a sweet nightlife - not surprising when it has the same population as our entire country. Yeah, come to New Zealand because you like mountains and temperate rainforests. Not to advance your IT career. I think in 20 years time that may change though - the tyranny of distance applies less to software than other products.

juskrey 10y ago

The truth is that people registered there for a free trip.

lubujackson 10y ago

I know several kiwis and my wife has traveled there extensively. The biggest issues seem to stem from "island culture" which means: - Most things are expensive and lower quality than you are used to. Furniture, housing, food, etc. Simply because of isolation and logistics. - Poor job market, terribly poor for most people. - Which leads to rules making it much harder to move to NZ long term. Unless you meet some high bars (several million dollars in the bank or married to a kiwi, etc.) it is hard to get permanent residence there. On the other hand, it is one of the most beautiful and rugged countries in the world. An unlike Australia, every plant and animal is not actively trying to kill you.

lostlogin 10y ago
> Most things are expensive and lower quality than you are used to With offshore manufactured things, yes. With handmade stuff, which is more expensive, I'd have no doubts rating it very highly.
feelix 10y ago
> every plant and animal is not actively trying to kill you It's the opposite here. There are no harmful animals anywhere. You can go walking through the wilderness bare foot (which I have done many times) without fear
EdwardDiego 10y ago
> Which leads to rules making it much harder to move to NZ long term. Unless you meet some high bars (several million dollars in the bank or married to a kiwi, etc.) it is hard to get permanent residence there. You forgot the 3rd option - be on a skills shortage list. We hire many developers/testers from overseas and they have no issue obtaining PR or citizenship. > Poor job market, terribly poor for most people. Define 'poor' - our unemployment rate is slightly above the US unemployment rate, and in my area (Canterbury, main city Christchurch), unemployment is 3.7%. We do have a "low wage" economy thanks to a neoliberal government crushing the unions in the 90s, but this doesn't really apply to developers.
dvtv75 10y ago
I lived in Dunedin. Items there were charged at rates suitable for wealthy tourists. Pay rates were legal minimums, although the added extras you had to provide for your work were well outside any legal rights employers have. For my last job, I used my PC and other personal equipment just to do my job, while my employer sat back and raked in the cash. (Almost literally, they would pay $6k in wages and $0 for equipment while billing $60+k for a job. One guy I know who took a similar role in the business has had a verbal warning for not doing his job properly, so he's providing his own equipment.) A friend of mine lives in Auckland. A year or so back, he explained that his rent had more than doubled in a single day. (He was on a fixed term lease that expired, he went to renew it, and the rent went up but his income didn't.)

agentile 10y ago

A while back I was going through the immigration process for NZ with an immigration lawyer and had all the points necessary and was moving on to the interview phase. My wife and I ultimately decided to stop as she became pregnant and didn't want to be as far away from family. That and the flight/quarantine times that would be imposed for our dogs. Another big issue was taxes. To my knowledge NZ and USA are two countries that will try to tax you wherever you live until you die unless you renounce citizenship. So dealing with being double taxed on income from NZ and USA was a big deal as well. Whenever I read these articles, it does sound so appealing. My sister has lived there for many years and the quality of life just seems so much better.

anentropic 10y ago
I don't think that's true about NZ tax http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/filing-your-return/overseas/iit-overseas.html http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/filing-your-ret... I have heard that USA does that though
- agentile 10y ago
  Yes, I may have that wrong. At the time I was a contractor so the fear was the following situation per "If you're a New Zealand resident, you're taxed on your worldwide income." If we wanted to eventually become residents of NZ, which we did, and I was obtaining income in the US, NZ and US would both tax me for that income. It seemed, however, less likely that NZ would approve me for immigration if I was not intending to contribute my talents to a company within NZ, so in that case, if I obtained a job in NZ, I would be taxed in NZ, and US would again tax me as well for that income due to US citizenship.
  - EduardoBautista 10y ago
    > NZ and US would both tax me for that income. Declaring your income does not mean that both will tax you.
    - 10y ago

draw_down 10y ago

Isolation sounds good. Super high housing costs relative to wages sounds... familiar, shall I say.

rconti 10y ago

Funny how it goes from appealing to "American Lord of the Rings nerds and Peter Thiel" really quickly. Had our honeymoon in New Zealand and really loved it. Auckland and Wellington are both beautiful, but, frankly, I'd rather be somewhere more relaxed like Nelson. I wish we had spent more time enjoying the south island and less time up north. Not so practical if you're trying to find work, though, I suppose. (I didn't make it to Christchurch). The housing prices really did surprise, though. Granted, most places I looked at housing costs were more "wandering around town, find real estate office, look at what's in the window" so it ended up being expensive places like Auckland, Queenstown, Wanaka, etc, but it was still quite surprising, and left me wondering how anyone could afford it without bringing in money from the outside. Then again, the grass is always greener -- I moved from Seattle to the SF area 15 years ago for the better weather and better traffic (don't laugh!) yet every time I travel, I find myself drawn to living in places like Reykjavik, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Nelson, etc. I'm sure the realities of the climates of these various places would come to me after the novelty wore off. And perhaps I just look fondly upon them because they remind me of "home" -- even though I was so happy to leave it.

Cyph0n 10y ago
My target is to live in Sweden after I finish grad school. I've been looking at ECE positions to gauge the market, and it strangely seems pretty small. The good thing is that Sweden has a special 1 year work visa deal with several countries including Australia, which I am a citizen of. My plan is to use that year to do some direct job hunting and also make sure I like the country!
- wingworks 10y ago
  You'll love it, I was there for a few weeks last year, and loved every minute! (I'm from NZ)
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    That's great to hear; it is an amazing country after all! I always joke with my family that if I could choose my country of origin, it would be Sweden! My parents (originally Tunisian) usually end up nodding in agreement :)

Proven 10y ago

Bullshit. Pay more or lower the criteria without lowering the pay and you'll see. Socialist fools @NYTimes

madengr 10y ago

"ISIS on the other side of the world"; nice. I assume NZ does not have the same immigration policy that is importing ISIS to Europe.

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cylinder 10y ago

I love how these comments always boil down to salary and cost of living arguments. People, (mostly Americans), you're doing it wrong. What kind of fool moves to a remote island in the middle of nowhere and then expects to somehow still earn as much as in the United States? This is not the right reason to expatriate. Go because you love NZ (or X country) not because you want to leave America. Go because you like the lifestyle and traditions the locals live, not because you want to transport your high earning consumer abundance life into a different country. You will be doomed for failure if you do.

mavdi 10y ago
I did that and pretty much earn what I used to earn in London. Perhaps a little more. There are excellent options for talented techies, need a little bit of trust in yourself and you're all set.
wingworks 10y ago
Exactly this! ^
lacampbell 10y ago
I don't think "being able to afford a comfortable house" should be considered some kind of luxury.

gravypod 10y ago

I don't think New Zealand's selling point will ever be isolation. To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bother you. New Zealand is very beautiful and interesting but there are still many laws and many people who want to bother you. Maybe this is "isolation" in a previously unheard of, to me, sense where you just don't want to be a citizen of a major nation or something? I don't know. For what I think of as "isolation" NZ is too draconian. Higher taxes and stricter laws really make it a no go for many people. When 50k USD lands you in the highest tax bracket (30%), when everything tech related is more expensive, and you're a software engineer it's a hard sell. NZ's biggest selling points are low crime, low unemployment, interesting area, and attractive social programs. It's definetly not an isolationist paradise unless you define isolationist as being "not in America, Middle East, or Europe" which this article seems happy to do.

lostlogin 10y ago
Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is. It's low relative to the OECD and, depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is Well if it's so low I wouldn't mind sending you my paypal. You can always send me some supplimental money if you don't think the government is taking enough from you. We can think of it as wealth redistribution to a poor college student. > It's low relative to the OECD If I'm focused on isolating myself from everyone why would I care about what other OECD members are doing? > depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier I don't think someone, who is attempting to isolate themselves from other people, would want to deal with this sort of thinking. If this is how New Zealander's think then they're not going to see many hermits swimming their way over the pond and lining up for land. These processes will undoutably create the need to interact with other people to prevent yourself from being arrested or fined heavily. This is the exact opposite of what someone who would like to isolate themselves from the rest of the world would want.

throwaway729 10y ago

> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. Really only the cost of living. > Commuting is less wearying Not really. There's a near zero percent chance your commute involves anything other than driving. The walkable areas of midwestern cities are certainly cheaper than SF, but they're also not exactly cheap. You're still looking at half a million for a decent house, 200k for a decent condo, and that's on a midwestern salary. Not to mention the weather. And if you're driving, well, driving is driving. > And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world... [can be avoided] Especially if you stay off Facebook. I mean, I guess you can just avoid talking to people altogether, but avoiding Facebook is no way to avoid the nastier parts of American populist politics in the midwest, which is decidedly Trump's America. On my last visit I learned that there are still people who very strongly believe that Obama is a Muslim and Clinton is a witch (literally, as in worships satan. I'm not exaggerating and they weren't being coy with language). And I wasn't even seeking them out, they were just the people I was obligated to spend time with. So no, the midwest isn't some cheaper version of California. There's a reason why people like me leave after a few decades and never look back. The weather sucks, the cities are either unlivable or not appreciably cheaper, and there's a high concentration of extremely unpleasant people.

muninn_ 10y ago
There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and people like Jeff Speck preach the gospel as far as I'm concerned - but I'll take a daily 20 minute drive over an hour hopping on and off trains any day of the week - especially when I can do so from my nice, comfy Lexus or whatever. You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. >And don't get me started on the casual racism/homophobia. The Midwest is Trump's America. In-laws firmly believe Obama is a Muslim and that Hillary Clinton is a witch. I'm not exaggerating for effect, and they're not being coy. Sincerely held beliefs. Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid. My parents don't think Obama is a Muslim , aren't at all racist, and they voted for Trump. I don't think Obama is a Muslim (I voted for him both times) and I don't like Hillary. So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones.

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Glyptodon 10y ago

Sooo in my view this helps prove that there's not so much a developer shortage as a failure in recruitment and hiring practices in the US.

mhoad 10y ago

Some really interesting numbers looking at various cost of living expenses and local purchasing power between say San Francisco and Christchurch here https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=New+Zealand&country2=United+States&city1=Christchurch&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

blanket_the_cat 10y ago

Cool, now you can help develop clever mechanisms to exfiltrate information and wealth from end users and consolidate capital into the hands of those who already possess more than they need, from the picturesque, rolling green hills of sunny New Zealand... Wake me up when the tech scene in Monrovia is booming out of control.

geebee 10y ago

New Zealand does sound pretty incredible. A massive national park, the size of California, with only 5 million people, and very liveable and appealing cities. Here's the thing. Would New Zealand stay that way if it pursued a policy of large scale immigration, they way the US has? The US takes well over a million new immigrants into the country every year. 10 years of our immigration would triple the size of New Zealand. I'm sure they could find takers. Plenty of people would love to move to New Zealand. I do wonder why the US, which takes over a million immigrants a year, takes so much heat for enforcing immigration policy, while New Zealand receives so much praise for being an ideal society. It sounds like New Zealand may use its selectivity to allow in immigrants, but only those likely to contribute significantly to the bottom line. In a way, their exclusivity may actually help them cherry pick the very best. As strategy, I get it. But again, the NYTimes has been immensely critical of deportations in the US. Why do they give NZ a pass on this? And if they're going to praise New Zealand, doesn't that mean they're praising a very limited immigration policy? I mean, how about this last quote: “It’s boom time for the next 10 years,” Mr. Drury said. The more immigrants, the better. “We’ll take a lot. We’ll take hundreds.” Woah, not hundreds?

snowwrestler 10y ago
For decades New Zealand has had trouble attracting immigrants. And they lose a lot of young talented native Kiwi people to places like the U.S., Australia, and Great Britain. There's really no comparison between the US and New Zealand when it comes to immigration. They're opposites. And, let's see how this latest attempt to attract high-skill immigrants goes. It's easy to romanticize New Zealand when you've spent your whole life in big US cities. Moving there is another thing entirely. It is remote and mostly rural. I will not be surprised if most Americans who go there come back within a few years.
qume 10y ago
NZ takes in 50k and have a population of 4mm. So 1 per 80 population. US takes in 1mm per 300mm population, or 1 per 300. NZ takes proportionately much more than the US. A similar calculation can be done for immigrants per area of land.

40_pending 10y ago

How bizarre. I specifically relocated from NZ to the U.S. because of the lack of job opportunities in the Tech industry. I'd been looking for a job for over 9 months in New Zealand. I flew into the U.S. to visit my dad and applied for some jobs and had an offer within two weeks. Not only is the cost of living cheaper here (where I'm located at in the U.S.), but my salary is much better off at about 30,000 higher than what I ever made in NZ. If politics is what's motivating your relocation to a country like New Zealand, let me assure you, local politics are just as silly if not more so over there. Not only that but people are just as obsessed with American politics, and as an American, you will be singled out for these political discussions often. You may even find yourself discriminated against for your origins and nationality as I often did.

lacampbell 10y ago
What was your salary in NZ?
- 40_pending 10y ago
  My last salary was about 70,000 NZD, which is less than $49,000 USD. I now make $87,000 USD (about 124,000 NZD), and I've got a written agreement for a raise to $95,000 in about another six months (135,000 NZD). The most I ever made in NZ was one year where I worked two different contractor jobs at about 60 hours per week and I brought in maybe 80k NZD ($56,000 USD). I now make $31,000 USD more than that at just 40 hours of work per week.
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    Are you a junior dev? Those contracting rates are awful. I'd class 70k as great for a junior, mediocre for intermediate and a joke for a senior. Wonder if they low-balled you for being a foreigner. FWIW as a NZer you hit the nail on the head about the anti-americanism, and simultaneous obsession with american politics.
    - driverdan 10y ago

15charlimit 10y ago

Good luck courting new tech talent when existing tech talent gets hung out to dry at the first hint of pressure. See Kim Dotcom's troubles for reference.

nebabyte 10y ago
Oh not 'actual' techies that envision the world embracing a new information era, we just want the code monkeys that know enough to pursue the profit motive for us and have internalized the idea that such a role is so in-demand that we can thus get them to do cheaply come now
RantyDave 10y ago
Oh, really. Kim Dotcom has managed to avoid extradition for five years, that's hardly being hung out to dry.
EdwardDiego 10y ago
The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very popular with the locals. A different government may have had a stronger spine. You also forgot the part where Kim Dotcom is a convicted fraudster, who was making money through deliberate violation of copyright, is all tech talent like him? Oh, and then there was the time he tried to get involved in NZ politics. That was not superpopular.
- vorg 10y ago
  > a convicted fraudster, who was making money through deliberate violation of copyright Violating copyright is not a crime in NZ, neither is it when former felons do it.
- deleted 10y ago
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- lacampbell 10y ago
  The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very popular with the locals. The NZ government still refuses to let US warships that may be nuclear powered into our ports, and thus has no free trade deal with the worlds largest economy. Instead we have a free trade deal with Red China, which is now colonising us.

jostmey 10y ago

There's something special when a certain density of talented people live together. Moving toward an isolated environment is never a good idea. I'm sure the title is a little misleading. Disclaimer: I have nothing against New Zealand and I am no fan of San Francisco

sbardle 10y ago
Moving towards an isolated environment is pretty much what pioneers do. If they succeed, people will follow and new networks develop.

milesrout 10y ago

Yuck. This whole thing is a massive failure, and will always be a massive failure. New Zealand does not need to 'court tech talent'. New Zealand has a net exodus of trained IT professionals, and the reason for that is low wages. That's the simple reality. So what do companies that are starved for people do? They don't raise their wages, as the market would dictate. They make plenty of money, they COULD raise them. No, instead they just lobby the Government to put software engineering on the rubbish that is the 'skills shortage list', the biggest scam around. Then the Government makes it almost trivial for people to immigrate here if they can claim to be a software engineer, and suddenly there's no problem: plenty of supply. The net result is New Zealanders go and work in the U.K. or the U.S., and are then replaced with Indians who come to work here in New Zealand. That's a stupid way of doing things. The skills shortage lists should be abolished and those companies should actually raise their wages if they want to keep graduates and experienced developers in NZ, and attract actual talent (as opposed to poorly paid immigrant workers and people coming in on student visas, getting internships and then getting jobs here). I know that this is HN and I'll almost certainly get banned for saying this, but it's quite right that Peter Thiel's bullshit citizenship has created an uproar in New Zealand. He's someone that has made money, like every other billionaire in existence, through exploiting other people, and then has turned around and used that money to fund meaningless crap startups and is now buying his way into small countries. New Zealand legalised gay marriage well before the US did. We are a very liberal country, both economically and socially - not in the sense that Americans think that word has, but in the actual literal meaning of the word 'liberal' - and we don't appreciate the Government expediting the citizenship application of the sort of person that would donate to Donald Trump. Anyway, the only thing Rod Drury wants is more workers, more labour, less wages, less costs. He's a businessman.

lacampbell 10y ago

A lot of Americans seem to have an idyllic notion of moving to NZ - often for political or LOTR movie reasons. If you're even toying with the idea, do yourself a favour and check out the following: - Salaries - Housing price - Housing quality - expect to pay top dollar for luxuries like insulation, double-glazed windows, and kitchens built within the last few decades. - The cost of a car, and the size and quality of the roads - The cost of electronic appliances, food, etc Completely unrelated, what's the going salary for an intermediate programmer/analyst in one of those really flat US states full of cornfields?

debacle 10y ago
The politics of New Zealand, especially when it comes to land rights + individual freedoms, can be enlightening.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  How so?
  - bootload 10y ago
    Waitangi. The successful negotiation of land with Māori. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi
    - antome 10y ago
      Kiwi here, what happened is moreso that the British accidentally gave the Maori more rights than they anticipated in the translation, and as the country became more progressive in the 20th century, the govt decided to respect those rights.
sitharus 10y ago
Also while the food is high quality don't expect the variety you're used to. Until recently NZ had a pretty bland palette.

rdl 10y ago

If Pacific Fibre had happened in New Zealand, I'd seriously consider living there. Unfortunately it died for a combination of not raising enough money (sigh) and trumped-up US national security concerns (they were planning to use Huawei equipment).

angryteabag 10y ago

As a New Zealander who wants to move to the USA, swap? (jk immigration laws make it impossible)

zoom6628 10y ago

Folks - a kiwi here. There are loads of tech companies in NZ and in the past developers are attracted by the lifestyle. Orion in the health space, Xero SaaS accounting system, Navman, hell even the first GSM controlled Coke vending machine was from NZ. GPS chips for mobiles invented by Radon, and we of course have Tait Electronics in Christchurch who do military comms gear - everybody who wants the best for the most extreme environments buys their gear. Auckland house prices pushed up a load by Chinese families needing somewhere safe to put their cash outside of China. And the only thing they could put into was housing. As to quality of housing its different to Europe because of the cliate duh! Solid stone and brick houses are not suited to temperate climates. And yes they are smaller than American houses because NZers dont live inside all year round. If its cold or wet, then just tough up, wear more clothes, and get on with your ife instead of hiding in your concrete bunker with the central heating on (you wont find those either). First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-do' prevails.

LouisSayers 10y ago

As a Kiwi, here are my thoughts: Isolation: yes, you are away from the troubles of the world, but it also means you'll be away from your families, you don't get Amazon Prime, and surprisingly you won't have as many Netflix movies to choose from. Don't expect to miss gridlock traffic, or be living in a Hobbit house lol Costs: Don't expect NZ to be super cheap. Housing prices are ridiculous and often won't have much in terms of insulation and heating. Food prices will be fairly normal (although you will have a diverse selection, and it's generally good quality), and you're simply not going to get paid as much as you would in major centres elsewhere in the world. Phone and internet plans are going to be expensive. Also, take into account those flights home you'll be making - they won't come cheap. Entertainment: There will be fun things to do for sure, but don't expect as much as what you might get in other major cities. NZ is however great for sports, and you'll fit right in if you have a sporting hobby or two. People: NZ has a diverse population, and has a unique culture. Don't expect it to be like wherever else you're from. As a kiwi, I love the NZ culture - I love that people will stop and help you out, that police are friendly and non-threatening, and that we have the ability to laugh at ourselves, and not take things so seriously. Just like anywhere however, you do run into dickheads every now and then. All in all, NZ is a "pretty choice" (pretty good) place to live. I imagine it'd be quite a bit of a culture shock for some people though, and it's not all cherries and rainbows. Some people might find it a little boring, others might like the chilled atmosphere and laid-backness.

sbardle 10y ago

I think NZ could become a major tech hub over the next 15 years. The geographical isolation will be alleviated by the internet and the development of faster air travel. For anyone interested in tech, wanting to start up or grow in NZ, check out the Edmund Hilary fellowship.

tjpnz 10y ago

Low pay, corrupt politicians, high crime, polluted lakes and rivers. What's not to like?

zoom6628 10y ago

First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-do' prevails.

grappler 10y ago

For me there is an undeniable appeal to “voting with your feet” after the result of the voting at the ballot box turned out so poorly. I personally likely won't be impacted too badly by Trump and his supporters. I may have economic options here that are as good as or better than my options anywhere else. But I feel a need to put some distance between this country and myself now. It doesn't represent me anymore. I don't belong to it anymore. I'm not ok with the decision it made. I've even felt that it ceased to be a place worth caring about. There are just a couple things that pull me back from this line of thinking: A broader view of history and a broader view of alternative places in the world. History: The last election may be the biggest step backward my country has taken since I was born, but I don't get to pretend that it was so wonderful before that. Yes, we all know this. But I just relearned it even more forcefully in a piece I read a couple weeks ago: http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-to-america/ http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-to-... Places in the world: If I'm going to leave for the reasons above, I need good reasons why another place is better. But every place has its downsides. There probably is a good case to be made in favor of a number of places, but if I'm going to be honest about this, I need to research it and not move reflexively without knowing a lot about the place I'm moving to. And if I do move somewhere, I should do it with some degree of commitment to put some effort into making that place better. Otherwise any anti-immigration sentiments that exist there will probably be right about me. Being able to chose your home, rather than having to stay where you were born, is a valuable thing. But at some point it is good to choose a home and invest in it.