29 ms·

Men Without Work

216 points by hunglee2 10y ago

sauronlord 10y ago
This bodes well for Men With Work (or ambition). Also bodes well for pro-UBC arguments. I don't think the early pioneers needed "work" to catch food, build shelter, and grow a harvest.
- mattnewton 10y ago
  The early pioneers were legally allowed to claim land for those activities, often resulting in brutal fighting with the native Americans already there. Do you want "pioneers" fighting off rural/suburban families for their land?
  - sauronlord 10y ago
    I don't want anything. The point is that the pioneers did what they had to do.
    - mattnewton 10y ago
      They did what society sanctioned them doing. Society doesn't sanction those activities anymore and if you don't mind your own buisiness it will lock you up. The times have changed and you need more than just gumption to get the resources you want.
    - lovich 10y ago
      By that argument gangs that take over a territory so they can get the resources they need/want that can't be gotten through a regular job, are the modern day pioneer
rhapsodic 10y ago
I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited flood of low-skilled, poorly-educated immigrants, legal or otherwise, into the US. Yet the Democratic party is staunchly opposed to any measures the might stem this flow. Instead, they lecture and name-call one of their former major constituencies, working-class males, who are the big losers in this equation.
- DenisM 10y ago
  >poorly-educated immigrants If you are alluding to Mexicans, they will just up and go home. They are here to provide for their families, if they can't do that from here they might as well join their loved ones back in the old country. Here's some supporting evidence to my claim: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-...
  - andreasklinger 10y ago
    afair mexican immigration is net negative - correct?
    - Filligree 10y ago
      Has been for a while. It may be more negative now.
- Bahamut 10y ago
  While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. A lot of the disconnect here is lack of empathy on both sides of the fence, but generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others. There is some merit to what social conservatives say in that traditional white male masculinity is changing in American society. Ultimately, I view the changes as a good thing, but for those not exposed to a sphere of influence close to them where other acceptable alternatives are promoted by people they trust, they see a void in their lives that are not adequately filled. This is very much a social problem. I don't know what the solution is - this is merely observations I have had in my interactions on both sides of the fence.
  - andreasklinger 10y ago
    > those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. The difference is the tendency - if this is downward future looks bleak even if "objectively" your life is better than others
fuhrerdubs 10y ago
These articles are junk without also discussing divorce and children being raised by single mothers. Divorce destroys wealth(hurts gdp), and single moms in general produce sub-par results at best. Generally they are slut and thug factories. Try modeling that nerds. America is economically under-performing because of those two reasons. Expect more Trump like politicians in the future if you refuse to admit that women's lib is bad for the economy. Edit: The ideological bias is showing in the downvotes. I thought you guys were all smart, data driven go getters? Use facts to prove me wrong instead of those primitive Trumpian emotions.
- aleeds 10y ago
  Or, amazingly, if we provided resources instead to single moms instead of calling them "sluts" the bad outcomes would go away. Our "grab them by the pussy" president, who you apparently just love, actively hurts women AND men by ignoring the fundamental problem of a people without support. You are the problem and you are pathetic for making it somebody else's fault.
  - qb45 10y ago
    Holding people responsible for their actions is cheaper than bailing them out, both locally (it costs nothing in every single case) and globally (people are more careful to stay out of trouble in the first place if there is no bailout). Socialism is expensive and only in the last century made barely possible at all. Many communities to this day can only afford shaming and there are lots of people raised on the ideals of personal responsibility and staying out of trouble for the good of you and others who would have to support you if shit goes wrong. Suggesting that everybody is to compulsorily pay for bastard children or other avoidable misfortunes is bound to piss them off. That's how your pussy-grabbing politicians rise to power.
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      Interesting theory, however the Trump states are welfare states at the federal level. How should the blue state voters feel about supporting the ignorant and uneducated? Unless personal responsibility in your view only applies to sex? I'll also add the same people who you say are so angry at supporting bastard children seem to take issue with providing universal access to birth control and the choice of abortion when necessary. Doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. > Holding people responsible for their actions is cheaper than bailing them out And Plan B is cheaper than raising a child.
Kenji 10y ago
It's so funny to watch how the Americans blame literally every problem they face on their current president. Before, it was 'Thanks, Obama' and before that 'George Bush is such an idiot!'.
- DenisM 10y ago
  Aw, come on, Kenji, you know better than that. For every president there is a group of people who blame the powers-that-be, and this group is fairly vocal, so you get to hear more from them. But the groups are small, and they are different for different presidents. You can't really say "americans blame yada yada". Besides, the parent post didn't lay blame on Trump, it did the opposite - it said that Trump election is the consequence of immigration policy, not its cause.
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. Please don't post empty nationalistic generalizations. And if you're going to comment on divisive topics, please do so thoughtfully, not rantily, as several of your recent comments have. "Go live in North Korea" and "don't bring your fascism" are examples of what we're trying to avoid. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14017679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14017679 and marked it off-topic.
  - Kenji 10y ago
    You misrepresent me. I did not say "Go live in North Korea". I said "Go live in North Korea if you want there to be no dissenting opinions.", which is a perfectly valid statement. Or are we pretending there's free speech in North Korea in the name of political correctness? However, I do admit that my post about presidents wasn't particularly constructive, yet it was still a fun observation in my eyes.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  That's not exclusive to the US. Every country has citizens that do that. Furthermore - since we have such a well-tuned two party system, there's always about 50% of people that feel at least a little disenfranchised. We've had good presidents on both sides and terrible presidents on both sides. Either way, you can rarely tell until you look back through the prism of history. Our media amplifies the divisiveness because it plays off of psychology and works for them.
jchrisa 10y ago
Worth reminding folks of the unspoken assumption that work is good. We need other avenues of community involvement. Some of the values younger people are turning to today are hopeful. http://www.generation-online.org/p/fp_bifo5.htm http://www.generation-online.org/p/fp_bifo5.htm
- jpt4 10y ago
  It strikes me as counterproductive for the Post-Futurist cause to immediately beneath its statement of values reproduce for comparison the infinitely aesthetically superior Futurist Manifesto: "1. We want to sing of the danger of love, the daily creation of a sweet energy that is never dispersed. 2. The essential elements of our poetry will be irony, tenderness and rebellion." vs. "1. We intend to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and fearlessness. 2. Courage, audacity, and revolt will be essential elements of our poetry." By any measure of thumos [0], they are incomparable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumos
  - stephancoral 10y ago
    It's almost as if aesthetics are secondary to the ideology and viewpoints being described. You realize most of the Futurists were avowed Fasicsts yes?
    - jpt4 10y ago
      The aesthetics of rhetoric is crucial to the ability (and, being an articulation of values instead of a specific programme of behavior, validity) of a manifesto to generate an animating, co-ordinating spirit. If your creedal banner is not kalos, its kagathos is suspect.
- DenisM 10y ago
  Thank you for bringing it up. Along the same lines I highly recommend the seminal work by Bertrand Russel, it dissects the "work is good" mentality in great detail (1932). http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
cubano 10y ago
If we want to see things began to change, we going to have to deal with this “variable.” Perhaps we should rethink our concept of incarcerating everyone found guilty of using currently illegal drugs. Maybe we need to rethink about how long felony convictions stay attached to personal records. When you can’t even rent an apartment in many states because you were a felon, and in some cases simply because you were charged with a felony at some time in the past, is it any wonder that we have large numbers of people not participating in the labor force? With 20 million former felons in America, we have attached a large anchor to our economic growth rate, and we have unfairly burdened these men and women. Three months ago I was stopped in Vegas for jaywalking. I was (illegally) searched after not giving consent. I small amount of meth (which I was successfully using for cognitive enhancement for my job as a web app developer) and did 67 days in jail. I lost everything. All my possessions (I was living at a weekly and they only hold stuff for 30 days). My laptops, phones, clothes, monitor etc etc. I lost my well paying remote job that I had for 2 years and was probably the best job I've ever had. Worse, I lost the respect of my boss whom I enjoyed a fruitful and meaningful professional relationship with. The remote job was not easy to get as I have prior drug possession felonies in Florida. The idea of having to go through all the hoops to find steady work again 1. at my age 2. as a felon and 3. living in a homeless shelter is almost too much to deal with. So I am now homeless and unemployed. I am living at the Catholic Charities shelter on Las Vegas Blvd. I recently got a hold of a laptop and am trying to cobble together my resume and find some remote work as I don't drive (I couldn't afford it anyway). The point? It is going be almost impossible for me to replace the job I had, and in the meantime I'm suffering beyond all reasonable expectation for someone who simply was crossing the empty street with a small of amount of "drugs" on me. Was this the outcome society wants me to have? To wreck what small success I struggled to get over what amounted to an illegal search and seizure (that's my PD talking, not me)? Who was the victim of my "crime"? I have been using drugs for almost 40 years and am very experienced on their use for chronic pain relief and cognitive improvement, and to be honest I need it nowadays to keep my productivity high and to help with everything modern webdevs need to keep up with. So yeah..."Men Without Work" is an ugly issue that keeps free-spirited people like me fucked up for no real reason whatsoever.
- goldenkey 10y ago
fuhrerdubs 10y ago
Women don't like girly men. They want dominant guys who make money. The Democrat party will have to give up on social issues or face a future of being the brown people tranny party.
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  ok at this point i just assume you are trolling for reference for other reader: every other comment by this account - either troll or opinion straight from the 50s in case this is a serious comment: "brown people party" "slugs and thugs" - most issues (as said outsider here) america faces is because you have too many desperate people not because you have too many races. imo healthcare, education and other "social issues" for the general population reduce the amount of desperate people.
  - fuhrerdubs 10y ago
    Not trolling. You can't argue my point on facts, it's that simple. Jobs were taken from Americans and shipped to Mexico and Asia. Americans had all those social things you list when they had their jobs. Your model would mean those things return but with a more heavy handed government approach.
  - jusuchin 10y ago
    The username is quite a sign of his trollingness.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
throw1233212323 10y ago
There's an oft-spoken of solution to this: more education. There's also a hidden requirement of that solution, that is namely that the person wants or is able to be educated. The 'inclusion' narrative is something to be lauded for sure, but people are good at different things -- if someone is just plain not capable of being an engineer or doing whatever other white collar job du jour, what then? What if they can't manage a vocational skill either? What if they can, but don't make the effort? Then what?
- sprash 10y ago
  Also "more education" is not really a final solution. At some point education is only increasing competition among workers without adding any value. As soon as your average plumber has a PhD something went wrong. I already met Ueber drivers with a PhD. We have to face the reality here: Most people simply are not needed anymore. If your wages are not rising according to inflation, the market has spoken and your current profession has an oversupply of workers. It is as simple as that.
tomc1985 10y ago
I don't see his conclusion of "you have to get lots of smart immigrants to fill in"... he spends paragraphs talking about how there is a growing pool of able-bodied, middle-aged citizenry yet he advocates bringing in even more people to maintain GDP. This is a training problem; we have a surplus of workers (and potential workers) with mismatched skills. He should consider retraining willing reentrants before further attempting to crowd a dwindling workforce with outsiders.
- throw1233212323 10y ago
  Just wanted to say +1, and that this stood out to me as well.
- dom0 10y ago
  Sounds like the "Fachkräftemangel" ("skilled worker shortage"), which is pushed into the media regularly by lobbyist groups (via "studies" and "statistics"). The goal is obviously to further reduce wages (even though they are already low here, Germany has some of the lowest unit labour costs on the entire continent) — many call it "cheap skilled worker shortage" now.
  - ferentchak 10y ago
    I like "Cheap Skilled Worker Shortage" as a term. I have found there is also a shortage of "Cheap Premium Quality Steaks" here. For example my desire as a buyer would be to purchase an awesome steak for about a dollar but the failings of our society have again let me down.
    - slavik81 10y ago
      And yet, that's kind of true. There is a scarcity of high quality meat. Many people would be made happier if steak would be no more expensive than carrots. Perhaps one day lab-grown meat will decrease the cost of production and make that a reality.
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
ryanmarsh 10y ago
Is it just me or did this make it off the front page rather quickly?
- throw1233212323 10y ago
  An invisible problem (I say that sadly)
ryanmarsh 10y ago
The thing that worries me most about "Men Without Work" is that's one way civil unrest can break out and war start. If that sounds bizarre then you should come visit me in Texas. I'll show you a land where almost every man has 2+ firearms. Where they overwhelmingly voted Trump, and distrust the government. I'll show you a land where men are more aggressive in general and my county in particular where at one point there were more shooting deaths per violent arrest than anywhere else in the country. I don't want to live here when men reach unemployment rates beyond 25% (as the article and book suggest).
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Are you serious? You're giving them too much credit. They'd be squashed in two seconds if they ever organized. North Korea is a threat. Not some hillbillies in your neck of the woods with a few deer hunting rifles that don't have jobs. A larger threat locally that's been around forever and needs no speculation is inner city youths with no jobs, no education and guns. They started calling Chicago "Chiraq".
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Well, those Texas/southern hillbillies are the ones running the US military. Military workforce by state: http://www.governing.com/gov-data/military-civilian-active-duty-employee-workforce-numbers-by-state.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/military-civilian-active-d...
    - ryanmarsh 10y ago
      Yah, imagine everyone at Fort Hood being ordered to invade Dallas and half the tanks driving off in the night to go protect the neighborhood they grew up in.
      - devonkim 10y ago
        Which is why if such orders were being issued it'd be more like blue state stationed divisions sent to quell uprisings in red state areas and vice versa. This is a huge part of why I think a growing political divide is such a problem - we can be easily persuaded to attack each other when the problem isn't each other but the ones issuing the orders.
gpsx 10y ago
I know people who have been out of work for a long time, and it seems to come to the point where they can no longer keep a job at all. These people essential leave society. And then there are those who subsequently choose to occupy their time with things that are damaging to society, like gangs or other violence. I think there is a potential solution to these problems - workfare. By this I mean the social aid given by the government consists of giving people a job. There is always more work to do. The problem is that there might not be someone willing to pay enough to have it done. This is where the government social program would come in. They basically supplement the income for the person doing the job. The idea being that it is better for the person to work then to just get aid. At the same time, society benefits because that person is being productive. This is counter to one of the big ideas to solve the problem of loss of jobs, universal basic income. It is good that is being studied to determine if it is a good way to move forward. I think there are people who will make the most of that, which is great. I think there are also people who can fall between the cracks. Within a workfare type program, self motivated people can also be addressed. Perhaps some people's job could be working on their own project, such as open source software or even being a musician.
- Nilef 10y ago
  Problem with this is that you then create incentive for businesses to pay less for staff, knowing the government will pick up the tab. Alternatively, the government prescribes the work - But then I suppose you end up with jobs which don't motivate people to get out of bed in the morning and leaves them in the same cycle we're trying to prevent
  - Pharylon 10y ago
    I've always liked this idea, that the government has jobs of last resort that pay minimum wage. There's always something to do, even if it's just picking up litter.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      Quite a few liberal cities are also quite dirty, especially in the poorer areas. I've always wondered why the government-helps-all-of-us types haven't put two and two together here to revitalize neighborhoods, reduce pollution, and give the unemployable opportunities to improve their lives.
77pt77 10y ago
> What I find odd and even more disturbing is that this seems to be a uniquely American trend This is not true. This can be observed in many "western" countries to different degrees.
sgustard 10y ago
This is intriguing. Any further sources for this claim? >The technology that I’ve been looking at lately (and much of it is not public) convinces me that younger generations are going to live a great deal longer than they now dream possible.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  People look at life expectancy numbers, which at rising, and think the limits of aging are increasing, but they're not. More people are living to 80, but 80 year olds aren't living any longer. It's certainly possible science will discover a breakthrough, but there's no trends to suggest it yet.
0x445442 10y ago
Why don't I ever hear about the role inflation plays in these matters. I've yet to hear an explanation I understand that explains the following questions: If productivity is rising why isn't the costs of goods and services falling? If the overall costs of goods and services are falling wouldn't that translate to less labor to maintain current standards of living? If less labor to maintain current standards of living was a reality, why is less labor necessarily a problem? If the goal of productivity and efficiency gains in the labor market is reduced costs in goods and services, why is price deflation of those goods and services a bad thing like we're continually told? What is the real goal of a monetary inflation targets of 2%? Why 2% and not 3%?
- sprash 10y ago
  The target inflation of 2% was established because the measurement error of the value is also about 2%. Hence if you want to avoid deflation, but at the same time minimize inflation your target should be 2%.
  - kristianp 10y ago
    That's interesting. But that also means that the central bankers think a 0% rate of inflation is acceptable, when non-zero inflation is needed to stimulate growth through lending.
- CuriouslyC 10y ago
  The reason inflation is necessary is because our money system is built on debt. If the money supply shrinks, there simply isn't enough money to repay the balance. That means insolvency, which further contracts the money supply. That results in more insolvency, and under the right circumstances you get a chain reaction that completely detonates the economy. That probably would have happened in 2008, but the government stepped in and artificially inflated the money supply to stem the bleeding. Unfortunately, since exponential growth can't continue forever, we're going to be locked into cycles of successively larger financial crises rescued by public debt until the system is so burdened by obligations that it collapses under its own weight.
ptr_void 10y ago
Dr. Tyler Cowen has a related video series about these issues (Complacent class, New era of segregation, Americanized stasis, Missing men, ..): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_AiV0pJcb9Mz1k https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_A...
- 77pt77 10y ago
  You should have linked directly to episode 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWrwCiM4rUM&list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_AiV0pJcb9Mz1k&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWrwCiM4rUM&list=PL-uRhZ_p-B...
nawitus 10y ago
How is Scott Adams a charlatan?
- pizza 10y ago
  http://www.joemygod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/adams3-660x330.jpg http://www.joemygod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/adams3-66... http://68.media.tumblr.com/9a81b7212d3add563b3bed8ea0f65d87/tumblr_inline_o3h2ezDkdj1t63ajm_500.png http://68.media.tumblr.com/9a81b7212d3add563b3bed8ea0f65d87/... https://pics.onsizzle.com/you-retweeted-scott-adams-scott-adams-says-russian-hackers-are-6059474.png https://pics.onsizzle.com/you-retweeted-scott-adams-scott-ad... https://68.media.tumblr.com/1091e75e29ae2864783db266603252a9/tumblr_inline_o8pvb9pdb21t63ajm_500.png https://68.media.tumblr.com/1091e75e29ae2864783db266603252a9... He gives off infowars vibes, imo..
  - legostormtroopr 10y ago
    But how is he a charlatan?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - pizza 10y ago
      Gem from today: "Acting irrational is textbook persuasion. In this context, a mental patient and a Master Persuader look identical to the observer." Looks like he's sponged up just enough game theory to rationalize madman theory. Make what you will of his page on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams post script: the only thing I know is that attempting to show others what you know/opine makes them know what they already know more intensely. Meaning, if my comment does anything but raise an eyebrow, simply wipe the memory of my comment and discard my opinion. The last thing I'd want is people who like Dilbert to adhere to Scott Adams' beliefs for the sake of having to protect their enjoyment of Dilbert, I guess..
  - R_haterade 10y ago
    Your examples look more like you just disagree with him politically...
MaysonL 10y ago
So how about women without work? The participation rate for women is about as far below earlier projections as for men.[0] [0]http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-plunge-in-labor-force-participation-why-were-economists-so-stupid-a-decade-ago http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-plunge-in-labor-for...
deleted 10y ago
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mirimir 10y ago
> As we shall see, a single variable – having a criminal record – is a key missing piece in explaining why work rates and LFPRs have collapsed much more dramatically in America than other affluent Western societies over the past two generations. This single variable also helps explain why the collapse has been so much greater for American men than women and why it has been so much more dramatic for African American men and men with low educational attainment than for other prime-age men in the United States. Although Ctrl-F shows me a few hits for "criminal" here, I see no substantive discussion of what is arguably the article's tl;dr. That is, with admittedly some license taken, it is arguably the bloody War Against Drugs that has been destroying the US economy and culture.
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kevinclancy 10y ago
We can dance if we want to. We can leave young men behind. Because if they can't dance then they're no friends of mine.
bjd2385 10y ago
> I don’t see us turning the workforce situation around unless we somehow manage to transform our negative imagery about immigrants and start to aggressively seek out productive young, educated immigrants from around the world. He lost me primarily at this point. From my perspective this makes no sense at all. I work grueling 12 hour shifts on an assembly line. My fingerprints have worn off some of my fingertips I work so hard; cuts and scrapes all over my hands and arms from handling product and adjusting machines all day. The other day I stood up too soon while ducking under a belt and a sharp edge put a deep gash in my back. Yet, I have a 2 year degree in mathematics and spend every minute not on the job programming, reading and learning. There is no other opportunity in Western NY for anyone with an associates degree. I can't afford to commute an hour to work, and I have a broken down vehicle I can't afford to fix because I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars in student loans back for a worthless degree. I live with my parents, who themselves can't get full time jobs (I surmise age discrimination is the biggest factor) with graduate degrees. America is not what it's made out to be. Neither is this ``education'' that's hyped up in the media and online. While I was growing up my parents couldn't make ends meet while they were both working. Now, as a full time worker, I see that I definitely cannot make enough to live on my own, a single white male. Obviously, then, the answer is to accept more immigrants, so there's more competition for the dwindling number of jobs mentioned in this article (due to technology...). > ... the gains in average education and health of the workforce over the last 50 years are unlikely to be repeated ... Well no-shit sherlock. People are pitched great promises by institutions and universities, only to find out that there's no job for them after 4 years of their lives and $100,000 of debt have been spent. Basically, they bought another (probably more expensive) house when they can barely afford the one they have. Further, there's likely high competition for anything outside of the medical field. And good luck getting a job in IT unless you know someone (c.f. the latest SO survey).
- intended 10y ago
  So one of the explanations I've recently read covered amount of jobs lost to immigrants. And it seems that it's not that high, or even negative. the theory for increasing the work force is that - the new workers don't displace jobs as much as they also create them. So those new workers have to eat, sleep and wear clothes. All of which are needs that have to be met, and so jobs and demand which is also created. Im guessing, The question is which jobs are taken, and at what wage.
khriskooper 10y ago
Surely this is mainly due to more and more women entering the workforce since the 1960s?
bjourne 10y ago
I wonder if anyone has linked the American joblessness with the Japanese Hikikomori? Perhaps there is a relation?
pascalxus 10y ago
I see 2 main causes: 1. As increasing number of women join the workforce, it reduces the # and pay of jobs for men 2. Entitlements from the Gov are preventing men from entering the workforce. I know of able bodied people who just collect payments from Medicare and decide not to work, which actually makes a lot of sense. Which would you rather do? Sit around and do nothing for 800$ a month or work minimum wage for 1300$ a month?
microtherion 10y ago
For a second, I thought we were talking about a commonwealth pop supergroup consisting of members of Men at Work and Men Without Hats…
crestedtazo 10y ago
What kind of employment do you expect to have handed to you with a 2-year mathematics degree? Perhaps if you stayed in school longer or got a degree in something less useless?
- bjd2385 10y ago
  I didn't expect any job to be handed to me, and I wouldn't have if I had been whatever major you seem to believe is more "useful." Actually, I still wouldn't even if I went back for another year and a half to finish a Bachelor's degree. Your reply has achieved little more than strengthen my point. And, at that, in more ways than one.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

216 points by hunglee2 10y ago

This bodes well for Men With Work (or ambition). Also bodes well for pro-UBC arguments. I don't think the early pioneers needed "work" to catch food, build shelter, and grow a harvest.

mattnewton 10y ago
The early pioneers were legally allowed to claim land for those activities, often resulting in brutal fighting with the native Americans already there. Do you want "pioneers" fighting off rural/suburban families for their land?
- sauronlord 10y ago
  I don't want anything. The point is that the pioneers did what they had to do.
  - mattnewton 10y ago
    They did what society sanctioned them doing. Society doesn't sanction those activities anymore and if you don't mind your own buisiness it will lock you up. The times have changed and you need more than just gumption to get the resources you want.
  - lovich 10y ago
    By that argument gangs that take over a territory so they can get the resources they need/want that can't be gotten through a regular job, are the modern day pioneer

rhapsodic 10y ago

I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited flood of low-skilled, poorly-educated immigrants, legal or otherwise, into the US. Yet the Democratic party is staunchly opposed to any measures the might stem this flow. Instead, they lecture and name-call one of their former major constituencies, working-class males, who are the big losers in this equation.

DenisM 10y ago
>poorly-educated immigrants If you are alluding to Mexicans, they will just up and go home. They are here to provide for their families, if they can't do that from here they might as well join their loved ones back in the old country. Here's some supporting evidence to my claim: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-...
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  afair mexican immigration is net negative - correct?
  - Filligree 10y ago
    Has been for a while. It may be more negative now.
Bahamut 10y ago
While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. A lot of the disconnect here is lack of empathy on both sides of the fence, but generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others. There is some merit to what social conservatives say in that traditional white male masculinity is changing in American society. Ultimately, I view the changes as a good thing, but for those not exposed to a sphere of influence close to them where other acceptable alternatives are promoted by people they trust, they see a void in their lives that are not adequately filled. This is very much a social problem. I don't know what the solution is - this is merely observations I have had in my interactions on both sides of the fence.
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  > those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. The difference is the tendency - if this is downward future looks bleak even if "objectively" your life is better than others

fuhrerdubs 10y ago

These articles are junk without also discussing divorce and children being raised by single mothers. Divorce destroys wealth(hurts gdp), and single moms in general produce sub-par results at best. Generally they are slut and thug factories. Try modeling that nerds. America is economically under-performing because of those two reasons. Expect more Trump like politicians in the future if you refuse to admit that women's lib is bad for the economy. Edit: The ideological bias is showing in the downvotes. I thought you guys were all smart, data driven go getters? Use facts to prove me wrong instead of those primitive Trumpian emotions.

aleeds 10y ago
Or, amazingly, if we provided resources instead to single moms instead of calling them "sluts" the bad outcomes would go away. Our "grab them by the pussy" president, who you apparently just love, actively hurts women AND men by ignoring the fundamental problem of a people without support. You are the problem and you are pathetic for making it somebody else's fault.
- qb45 10y ago
  Holding people responsible for their actions is cheaper than bailing them out, both locally (it costs nothing in every single case) and globally (people are more careful to stay out of trouble in the first place if there is no bailout). Socialism is expensive and only in the last century made barely possible at all. Many communities to this day can only afford shaming and there are lots of people raised on the ideals of personal responsibility and staying out of trouble for the good of you and others who would have to support you if shit goes wrong. Suggesting that everybody is to compulsorily pay for bastard children or other avoidable misfortunes is bound to piss them off. That's how your pussy-grabbing politicians rise to power.
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    Interesting theory, however the Trump states are welfare states at the federal level. How should the blue state voters feel about supporting the ignorant and uneducated? Unless personal responsibility in your view only applies to sex? I'll also add the same people who you say are so angry at supporting bastard children seem to take issue with providing universal access to birth control and the choice of abortion when necessary. Doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. > Holding people responsible for their actions is cheaper than bailing them out And Plan B is cheaper than raising a child.

Kenji 10y ago

It's so funny to watch how the Americans blame literally every problem they face on their current president. Before, it was 'Thanks, Obama' and before that 'George Bush is such an idiot!'.

DenisM 10y ago
Aw, come on, Kenji, you know better than that. For every president there is a group of people who blame the powers-that-be, and this group is fairly vocal, so you get to hear more from them. But the groups are small, and they are different for different presidents. You can't really say "americans blame yada yada". Besides, the parent post didn't lay blame on Trump, it did the opposite - it said that Trump election is the consequence of immigration policy, not its cause.
dang 10y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. Please don't post empty nationalistic generalizations. And if you're going to comment on divisive topics, please do so thoughtfully, not rantily, as several of your recent comments have. "Go live in North Korea" and "don't bring your fascism" are examples of what we're trying to avoid. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14017679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14017679 and marked it off-topic.
- Kenji 10y ago
  You misrepresent me. I did not say "Go live in North Korea". I said "Go live in North Korea if you want there to be no dissenting opinions.", which is a perfectly valid statement. Or are we pretending there's free speech in North Korea in the name of political correctness? However, I do admit that my post about presidents wasn't particularly constructive, yet it was still a fun observation in my eyes.
exclusiv 10y ago
That's not exclusive to the US. Every country has citizens that do that. Furthermore - since we have such a well-tuned two party system, there's always about 50% of people that feel at least a little disenfranchised. We've had good presidents on both sides and terrible presidents on both sides. Either way, you can rarely tell until you look back through the prism of history. Our media amplifies the divisiveness because it plays off of psychology and works for them.

jchrisa 10y ago

Worth reminding folks of the unspoken assumption that work is good. We need other avenues of community involvement. Some of the values younger people are turning to today are hopeful. http://www.generation-online.org/p/fp_bifo5.htm http://www.generation-online.org/p/fp_bifo5.htm

jpt4 10y ago
It strikes me as counterproductive for the Post-Futurist cause to immediately beneath its statement of values reproduce for comparison the infinitely aesthetically superior Futurist Manifesto: "1. We want to sing of the danger of love, the daily creation of a sweet energy that is never dispersed. 2. The essential elements of our poetry will be irony, tenderness and rebellion." vs. "1. We intend to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and fearlessness. 2. Courage, audacity, and revolt will be essential elements of our poetry." By any measure of thumos [0], they are incomparable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumos
- stephancoral 10y ago
  It's almost as if aesthetics are secondary to the ideology and viewpoints being described. You realize most of the Futurists were avowed Fasicsts yes?
  - jpt4 10y ago
    The aesthetics of rhetoric is crucial to the ability (and, being an articulation of values instead of a specific programme of behavior, validity) of a manifesto to generate an animating, co-ordinating spirit. If your creedal banner is not kalos, its kagathos is suspect.
DenisM 10y ago
Thank you for bringing it up. Along the same lines I highly recommend the seminal work by Bertrand Russel, it dissects the "work is good" mentality in great detail (1932). http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

cubano 10y ago

If we want to see things began to change, we going to have to deal with this “variable.” Perhaps we should rethink our concept of incarcerating everyone found guilty of using currently illegal drugs. Maybe we need to rethink about how long felony convictions stay attached to personal records. When you can’t even rent an apartment in many states because you were a felon, and in some cases simply because you were charged with a felony at some time in the past, is it any wonder that we have large numbers of people not participating in the labor force? With 20 million former felons in America, we have attached a large anchor to our economic growth rate, and we have unfairly burdened these men and women. Three months ago I was stopped in Vegas for jaywalking. I was (illegally) searched after not giving consent. I small amount of meth (which I was successfully using for cognitive enhancement for my job as a web app developer) and did 67 days in jail. I lost everything. All my possessions (I was living at a weekly and they only hold stuff for 30 days). My laptops, phones, clothes, monitor etc etc. I lost my well paying remote job that I had for 2 years and was probably the best job I've ever had. Worse, I lost the respect of my boss whom I enjoyed a fruitful and meaningful professional relationship with. The remote job was not easy to get as I have prior drug possession felonies in Florida. The idea of having to go through all the hoops to find steady work again 1. at my age 2. as a felon and 3. living in a homeless shelter is almost too much to deal with. So I am now homeless and unemployed. I am living at the Catholic Charities shelter on Las Vegas Blvd. I recently got a hold of a laptop and am trying to cobble together my resume and find some remote work as I don't drive (I couldn't afford it anyway). The point? It is going be almost impossible for me to replace the job I had, and in the meantime I'm suffering beyond all reasonable expectation for someone who simply was crossing the empty street with a small of amount of "drugs" on me. Was this the outcome society wants me to have? To wreck what small success I struggled to get over what amounted to an illegal search and seizure (that's my PD talking, not me)? Who was the victim of my "crime"? I have been using drugs for almost 40 years and am very experienced on their use for chronic pain relief and cognitive improvement, and to be honest I need it nowadays to keep my productivity high and to help with everything modern webdevs need to keep up with. So yeah..."Men Without Work" is an ugly issue that keeps free-spirited people like me fucked up for no real reason whatsoever.

goldenkey 10y ago

fuhrerdubs 10y ago

Women don't like girly men. They want dominant guys who make money. The Democrat party will have to give up on social issues or face a future of being the brown people tranny party.

andreasklinger 10y ago
ok at this point i just assume you are trolling for reference for other reader: every other comment by this account - either troll or opinion straight from the 50s in case this is a serious comment: "brown people party" "slugs and thugs" - most issues (as said outsider here) america faces is because you have too many desperate people not because you have too many races. imo healthcare, education and other "social issues" for the general population reduce the amount of desperate people.
- fuhrerdubs 10y ago
  Not trolling. You can't argue my point on facts, it's that simple. Jobs were taken from Americans and shipped to Mexico and Asia. Americans had all those social things you list when they had their jobs. Your model would mean those things return but with a more heavy handed government approach.
- jusuchin 10y ago
  The username is quite a sign of his trollingness.
deleted 10y ago
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throw1233212323 10y ago

There's an oft-spoken of solution to this: more education. There's also a hidden requirement of that solution, that is namely that the person wants or is able to be educated. The 'inclusion' narrative is something to be lauded for sure, but people are good at different things -- if someone is just plain not capable of being an engineer or doing whatever other white collar job du jour, what then? What if they can't manage a vocational skill either? What if they can, but don't make the effort? Then what?

sprash 10y ago
Also "more education" is not really a final solution. At some point education is only increasing competition among workers without adding any value. As soon as your average plumber has a PhD something went wrong. I already met Ueber drivers with a PhD. We have to face the reality here: Most people simply are not needed anymore. If your wages are not rising according to inflation, the market has spoken and your current profession has an oversupply of workers. It is as simple as that.

tomc1985 10y ago

I don't see his conclusion of "you have to get lots of smart immigrants to fill in"... he spends paragraphs talking about how there is a growing pool of able-bodied, middle-aged citizenry yet he advocates bringing in even more people to maintain GDP. This is a training problem; we have a surplus of workers (and potential workers) with mismatched skills. He should consider retraining willing reentrants before further attempting to crowd a dwindling workforce with outsiders.

throw1233212323 10y ago
Just wanted to say +1, and that this stood out to me as well.
dom0 10y ago
Sounds like the "Fachkräftemangel" ("skilled worker shortage"), which is pushed into the media regularly by lobbyist groups (via "studies" and "statistics"). The goal is obviously to further reduce wages (even though they are already low here, Germany has some of the lowest unit labour costs on the entire continent) — many call it "cheap skilled worker shortage" now.
- ferentchak 10y ago
  I like "Cheap Skilled Worker Shortage" as a term. I have found there is also a shortage of "Cheap Premium Quality Steaks" here. For example my desire as a buyer would be to purchase an awesome steak for about a dollar but the failings of our society have again let me down.
  - slavik81 10y ago
    And yet, that's kind of true. There is a scarcity of high quality meat. Many people would be made happier if steak would be no more expensive than carrots. Perhaps one day lab-grown meat will decrease the cost of production and make that a reality.
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago

ryanmarsh 10y ago

Is it just me or did this make it off the front page rather quickly?

throw1233212323 10y ago
An invisible problem (I say that sadly)

ryanmarsh 10y ago

The thing that worries me most about "Men Without Work" is that's one way civil unrest can break out and war start. If that sounds bizarre then you should come visit me in Texas. I'll show you a land where almost every man has 2+ firearms. Where they overwhelmingly voted Trump, and distrust the government. I'll show you a land where men are more aggressive in general and my county in particular where at one point there were more shooting deaths per violent arrest than anywhere else in the country. I don't want to live here when men reach unemployment rates beyond 25% (as the article and book suggest).

exclusiv 10y ago
Are you serious? You're giving them too much credit. They'd be squashed in two seconds if they ever organized. North Korea is a threat. Not some hillbillies in your neck of the woods with a few deer hunting rifles that don't have jobs. A larger threat locally that's been around forever and needs no speculation is inner city youths with no jobs, no education and guns. They started calling Chicago "Chiraq".
- stale2002 10y ago
  Well, those Texas/southern hillbillies are the ones running the US military. Military workforce by state: http://www.governing.com/gov-data/military-civilian-active-duty-employee-workforce-numbers-by-state.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/military-civilian-active-d...
  - ryanmarsh 10y ago
    Yah, imagine everyone at Fort Hood being ordered to invade Dallas and half the tanks driving off in the night to go protect the neighborhood they grew up in.
    - devonkim 10y ago
      Which is why if such orders were being issued it'd be more like blue state stationed divisions sent to quell uprisings in red state areas and vice versa. This is a huge part of why I think a growing political divide is such a problem - we can be easily persuaded to attack each other when the problem isn't each other but the ones issuing the orders.

gpsx 10y ago

I know people who have been out of work for a long time, and it seems to come to the point where they can no longer keep a job at all. These people essential leave society. And then there are those who subsequently choose to occupy their time with things that are damaging to society, like gangs or other violence. I think there is a potential solution to these problems - workfare. By this I mean the social aid given by the government consists of giving people a job. There is always more work to do. The problem is that there might not be someone willing to pay enough to have it done. This is where the government social program would come in. They basically supplement the income for the person doing the job. The idea being that it is better for the person to work then to just get aid. At the same time, society benefits because that person is being productive. This is counter to one of the big ideas to solve the problem of loss of jobs, universal basic income. It is good that is being studied to determine if it is a good way to move forward. I think there are people who will make the most of that, which is great. I think there are also people who can fall between the cracks. Within a workfare type program, self motivated people can also be addressed. Perhaps some people's job could be working on their own project, such as open source software or even being a musician.

Nilef 10y ago
Problem with this is that you then create incentive for businesses to pay less for staff, knowing the government will pick up the tab. Alternatively, the government prescribes the work - But then I suppose you end up with jobs which don't motivate people to get out of bed in the morning and leaves them in the same cycle we're trying to prevent
- Pharylon 10y ago
  I've always liked this idea, that the government has jobs of last resort that pay minimum wage. There's always something to do, even if it's just picking up litter.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    Quite a few liberal cities are also quite dirty, especially in the poorer areas. I've always wondered why the government-helps-all-of-us types haven't put two and two together here to revitalize neighborhoods, reduce pollution, and give the unemployable opportunities to improve their lives.

77pt77 10y ago

> What I find odd and even more disturbing is that this seems to be a uniquely American trend This is not true. This can be observed in many "western" countries to different degrees.

sgustard 10y ago

This is intriguing. Any further sources for this claim? >The technology that I’ve been looking at lately (and much of it is not public) convinces me that younger generations are going to live a great deal longer than they now dream possible.

erikpukinskis 10y ago
People look at life expectancy numbers, which at rising, and think the limits of aging are increasing, but they're not. More people are living to 80, but 80 year olds aren't living any longer. It's certainly possible science will discover a breakthrough, but there's no trends to suggest it yet.

0x445442 10y ago

Why don't I ever hear about the role inflation plays in these matters. I've yet to hear an explanation I understand that explains the following questions: If productivity is rising why isn't the costs of goods and services falling? If the overall costs of goods and services are falling wouldn't that translate to less labor to maintain current standards of living? If less labor to maintain current standards of living was a reality, why is less labor necessarily a problem? If the goal of productivity and efficiency gains in the labor market is reduced costs in goods and services, why is price deflation of those goods and services a bad thing like we're continually told? What is the real goal of a monetary inflation targets of 2%? Why 2% and not 3%?

sprash 10y ago
The target inflation of 2% was established because the measurement error of the value is also about 2%. Hence if you want to avoid deflation, but at the same time minimize inflation your target should be 2%.
- kristianp 10y ago
  That's interesting. But that also means that the central bankers think a 0% rate of inflation is acceptable, when non-zero inflation is needed to stimulate growth through lending.
CuriouslyC 10y ago
The reason inflation is necessary is because our money system is built on debt. If the money supply shrinks, there simply isn't enough money to repay the balance. That means insolvency, which further contracts the money supply. That results in more insolvency, and under the right circumstances you get a chain reaction that completely detonates the economy. That probably would have happened in 2008, but the government stepped in and artificially inflated the money supply to stem the bleeding. Unfortunately, since exponential growth can't continue forever, we're going to be locked into cycles of successively larger financial crises rescued by public debt until the system is so burdened by obligations that it collapses under its own weight.

ptr_void 10y ago

Dr. Tyler Cowen has a related video series about these issues (Complacent class, New era of segregation, Americanized stasis, Missing men, ..): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_AiV0pJcb9Mz1k https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_A...

77pt77 10y ago
You should have linked directly to episode 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWrwCiM4rUM&list=PL-uRhZ_p-BM4Pei6Xlr_AiV0pJcb9Mz1k&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWrwCiM4rUM&list=PL-uRhZ_p-B...

nawitus 10y ago

How is Scott Adams a charlatan?

pizza 10y ago
http://www.joemygod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/adams3-660x330.jpg http://www.joemygod.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/adams3-66... http://68.media.tumblr.com/9a81b7212d3add563b3bed8ea0f65d87/tumblr_inline_o3h2ezDkdj1t63ajm_500.png http://68.media.tumblr.com/9a81b7212d3add563b3bed8ea0f65d87/... https://pics.onsizzle.com/you-retweeted-scott-adams-scott-adams-says-russian-hackers-are-6059474.png https://pics.onsizzle.com/you-retweeted-scott-adams-scott-ad... https://68.media.tumblr.com/1091e75e29ae2864783db266603252a9/tumblr_inline_o8pvb9pdb21t63ajm_500.png https://68.media.tumblr.com/1091e75e29ae2864783db266603252a9... He gives off infowars vibes, imo..
- legostormtroopr 10y ago
  But how is he a charlatan?
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - pizza 10y ago
    Gem from today: "Acting irrational is textbook persuasion. In this context, a mental patient and a Master Persuader look identical to the observer." Looks like he's sponged up just enough game theory to rationalize madman theory. Make what you will of his page on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams post script: the only thing I know is that attempting to show others what you know/opine makes them know what they already know more intensely. Meaning, if my comment does anything but raise an eyebrow, simply wipe the memory of my comment and discard my opinion. The last thing I'd want is people who like Dilbert to adhere to Scott Adams' beliefs for the sake of having to protect their enjoyment of Dilbert, I guess..
- R_haterade 10y ago
  Your examples look more like you just disagree with him politically...

MaysonL 10y ago

So how about women without work? The participation rate for women is about as far below earlier projections as for men.[0] [0]http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-plunge-in-labor-force-participation-why-were-economists-so-stupid-a-decade-ago http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-plunge-in-labor-for...

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mirimir 10y ago

> As we shall see, a single variable – having a criminal record – is a key missing piece in explaining why work rates and LFPRs have collapsed much more dramatically in America than other affluent Western societies over the past two generations. This single variable also helps explain why the collapse has been so much greater for American men than women and why it has been so much more dramatic for African American men and men with low educational attainment than for other prime-age men in the United States. Although Ctrl-F shows me a few hits for "criminal" here, I see no substantive discussion of what is arguably the article's tl;dr. That is, with admittedly some license taken, it is arguably the bloody War Against Drugs that has been destroying the US economy and culture.

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kevinclancy 10y ago

We can dance if we want to. We can leave young men behind. Because if they can't dance then they're no friends of mine.

bjd2385 10y ago

> I don’t see us turning the workforce situation around unless we somehow manage to transform our negative imagery about immigrants and start to aggressively seek out productive young, educated immigrants from around the world. He lost me primarily at this point. From my perspective this makes no sense at all. I work grueling 12 hour shifts on an assembly line. My fingerprints have worn off some of my fingertips I work so hard; cuts and scrapes all over my hands and arms from handling product and adjusting machines all day. The other day I stood up too soon while ducking under a belt and a sharp edge put a deep gash in my back. Yet, I have a 2 year degree in mathematics and spend every minute not on the job programming, reading and learning. There is no other opportunity in Western NY for anyone with an associates degree. I can't afford to commute an hour to work, and I have a broken down vehicle I can't afford to fix because I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars in student loans back for a worthless degree. I live with my parents, who themselves can't get full time jobs (I surmise age discrimination is the biggest factor) with graduate degrees. America is not what it's made out to be. Neither is this ``education'' that's hyped up in the media and online. While I was growing up my parents couldn't make ends meet while they were both working. Now, as a full time worker, I see that I definitely cannot make enough to live on my own, a single white male. Obviously, then, the answer is to accept more immigrants, so there's more competition for the dwindling number of jobs mentioned in this article (due to technology...). > ... the gains in average education and health of the workforce over the last 50 years are unlikely to be repeated ... Well no-shit sherlock. People are pitched great promises by institutions and universities, only to find out that there's no job for them after 4 years of their lives and $100,000 of debt have been spent. Basically, they bought another (probably more expensive) house when they can barely afford the one they have. Further, there's likely high competition for anything outside of the medical field. And good luck getting a job in IT unless you know someone (c.f. the latest SO survey).

intended 10y ago
So one of the explanations I've recently read covered amount of jobs lost to immigrants. And it seems that it's not that high, or even negative. the theory for increasing the work force is that - the new workers don't displace jobs as much as they also create them. So those new workers have to eat, sleep and wear clothes. All of which are needs that have to be met, and so jobs and demand which is also created. Im guessing, The question is which jobs are taken, and at what wage.

khriskooper 10y ago

Surely this is mainly due to more and more women entering the workforce since the 1960s?

bjourne 10y ago

I wonder if anyone has linked the American joblessness with the Japanese Hikikomori? Perhaps there is a relation?

pascalxus 10y ago

I see 2 main causes: 1. As increasing number of women join the workforce, it reduces the # and pay of jobs for men 2. Entitlements from the Gov are preventing men from entering the workforce. I know of able bodied people who just collect payments from Medicare and decide not to work, which actually makes a lot of sense. Which would you rather do? Sit around and do nothing for 800$ a month or work minimum wage for 1300$ a month?

microtherion 10y ago

For a second, I thought we were talking about a commonwealth pop supergroup consisting of members of Men at Work and Men Without Hats…

crestedtazo 10y ago

What kind of employment do you expect to have handed to you with a 2-year mathematics degree? Perhaps if you stayed in school longer or got a degree in something less useless?

bjd2385 10y ago
I didn't expect any job to be handed to me, and I wouldn't have if I had been whatever major you seem to believe is more "useful." Actually, I still wouldn't even if I went back for another year and a half to finish a Bachelor's degree. Your reply has achieved little more than strengthen my point. And, at that, in more ways than one.
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