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Canadians Adopted Refugee Families for a Year, Then Came ‘Month 13’

151 points by irfansharif 10y ago

mkaziz 10y ago
Wow. I am beyond impressed. I am from a Muslim country and I have heard more than one person say that we may have Islam on our faces, but Westerners have Islam in their hearts. I can't even imagine the effort the Canadian sponsors put into resettling these families. There is a very direct analogy to this in the early history of Islam: http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/brotherhood-established-between-migrants-and-ansar http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/brotherhood-establis... where the Muslims who fled persecution in Mecca were set up with sponsor families in Medina who helped them adapt and stand on their feet. To see that same behaviour in our purportedly selfish day and age warms me to a whole another level.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  I think it may help that Canada is so young. Nobody can pretend to have a claim to this land above anyone else (except for the aboriginals, who we continue to fail.) I'm as Canadian by way of British colonization as it comes and I grew up hearing stories about how my ancestors immigrated here due to tough times at home through the 1800s. We are all immigrants.
  - adventured 10y ago
    I have to be more than a little bit skeptical with that premise. There are 600+ million hispanics in North and South America, Canada has managed to allow a whopping ~400,000 of them in, representing a minuscule 1.2% of the country. The US is over 20% hispanic and about 16% black; Canada is 2.9% black. It sure looks like someone has a claim to the land. Canada's merit based immigration system was designed to intentionally keep poor immigrants out (ie the majority of the population of Latin America).
    - mythrwy 10y ago
      Not disagreeing with your overall claim but it's worth pointing out that not all Hispanics in the US are descendants of immigrants (into the US). New Mexico for instance still has families with large tracts of land granted by the Spanish Crown before the US even existed.
      - adventured 10y ago
        That's definitely understood. It's a small percentage of the number however. The US was about 81% white in 1980 and 6.4% hispanic. It's now ~63% white, with the hispanic percentage having more than tripled (~14 million to ~70 million in raw numbers (not implying all is first gen immigration obviously); an increase equal to 160% the entire population of Canada). The extreme bulk of that demographic shift is derived from relatively recent immigration (last 40 years), overwhelmingly from Latin America (the remainder mostly from Asia), and overwhelmingly relatively poor immigrants that would be mostly barred from Canada under their merit system (which is why they have so few hispanics, why they didn't participate in the hispanic population boom the US has seen, and also why that's not going to change any time soon). I'm pro immigration, and it's kind of obnoxious to watch Canadians try to stand on a soapbox while ignoring the facts.
        castle-bravo 10y ago
        Canada does allow a limited number of refugees to enter, but for the most part our immigration system isn't altruistic. We don't allow people to enter and stay on the basis of their need to live here, but on our need for their skills. We have to have an expectation that immigrants will earn a reasonable income, or they will become a burden on our already strained social services. If they are unskilled (i.e. poor) or their skills are not in demand in Canada, then we can't afford to allow them to stay here in poverty.
    - white-flame 10y ago
      The parent was talking about how recently the Canadian (vs pre-Canadian, for lack of a better distinction terminology) population has moved there, which isn't long enough to "feel" like ancestral connections claiming the land as theirs by family roots and birthright. A side effect is that settlements, cities, and expansion are quite new, globally-speaking, so there's not a lot of related deep physical history there either. All of those are orthogonal to the demographics. Where demographics come into play is that, in my experience, the issues of First Nations people are more a part of common Canadian politics than Native American issues are in the USA. That focus likely also plays against a sense of other Canadians feeling too rooted there.
frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
Great article. I wonder if something like this could be used in the US to help bridge the partisan divide on immigration. A deal where we reduce immigration but ask people to sponsor as some sort of civic duty. I think it might reduce anti-immigrant sentiment if Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants face. I also think a lot of the Trump voterbase feels that their culture is being wiped out by immigrants, a sponsor program may give them some feeling of control back.
- zxcvvcxz 10y ago
  > A deal where we reduce immigration but ask people to sponsor as some sort of civic duty. How about you can have all the immigration you want if you sponsor it? > I think it might reduce anti-immigrant sentiment if Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants face. I think it might reduce the pro-immigrant sentiment if (certain) Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants bring.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > How about you can have all the immigration you want if you sponsor it? Pretty much all immigrant visa categories (and certainly the vast majority of actual visas granted) are sponsored, either employer or family, so, sure, just uncap all those categories and be done?
    - mkaziz 10y ago
      ^Yep. When I was sponsored, the US government basically told us that if we try and claim any public benefits for the next 5 years, they'd come after my sponsor for reimbursement. Sponsor had to show adequate financial resources to sponsor our family. This probably does not apply for refugees, but definitely does for family-based sponsorships.
      - verelo 10y ago
        Canada does the same thing. I'm a spousal sponsored immigrant and if I were to claim anything as such my partner is actually the one the govnernemnt holds responsible for funding it [from australia, so hardly the same category as a refugee]
xupybd 10y ago
One thing really stands out here: "with enough support, poor Muslims from rural Syria could adapt, belong and eventually prosper and contribute in Canada" I'm fearful of allowing huge numbers of refuges into another country as the number of social problems could overwhelm the host country. But absolutely with enough support this could work. Not talking financial support, but as this article mentions people taking time to help these people adjust to the new country. I'm surprised in this modern age it happened. Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. It's heart warming to see a counter example.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. You've just identified one of the many things that I believe Canadians see as a value that distinguishes us from our friends to the south. Whether that's fair or not is something else entirely. But I think it's true that, generally speaking, Americans see individualism as one of their defining values, which directly informs a whole host of other derived values (belief in the power of capitalism, distrust of government, etc). My experience (for what it's worth) is that Canadians, on average, may value those things, but I don't believe they are seen as a defining element of the Canadian identity.
  - eigenvector 10y ago
    I wouldn't draw such a conclusion just from this article. One of the things it highlighted, and that I feel as well as a Canadian, is that to a certain extent the sponsors acted in ways that benefited themselves over the refugees. Like the lady who wouldn't show them how to use the bus, because she's wealthy and doesn't ride buses. Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. People are people. I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. In fact our own government put the brakes on the sponsorship program early this year.
leereeves 10y ago
> There is a very direct analogy to this in the early history of Islam: where the Muslims who fled persecution in Mecca were set up with sponsor families in Medina Then the sponsor families were conquered, along with the rest of Medina...
- mkaziz 10y ago
  No they weren't? There was no conquest on Medina. I have no idea what you're trying to say.
  - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
    I think they are trying to parody the fears of some citizens of host nations who fear problems from accepting refugees?
    - mkaziz 10y ago
      Oh. That went completely over my head. Thank you!
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - leereeves 10y ago
    I've heard various stories. The claim that the people and rulers of Medina voluntarily submitted to Muhammad seems unbelievable to me, given Islam's history of "coerced" conversions, but what's beyond dispute is that Muhammad became the ruler of Medina. Whether that was completely voluntary...well, history is written by the victors.
    - mkaziz 10y ago
      ... you can say that about any historical event ever and massage it to fit your narrative. The commandment for Muslims to fight wasn't sent down till a year or two after the emigration, so they were quite literally not allowed to fight or "subdue" or "coerce" anyone. There's a /tonne/ of evidence that the emigration was peaceful (though there were certainly subgroups opposed to it politically and ideologically). It is quite literally one of the least contentious pieces of Islamic history.
mjevans 10y ago
An enlightening read. I would like to offer my own definition for success. Failure is easy to define, deviation from expected outcomes, suffering, etc. Success is not the absence of failure. In this case success is a bright future with many options for the children. Success is integrating the children in to the culture of the new host country; this does not require forsaking their heritage, but it may mean becoming more or slightly different than it.
mjevans 10y ago
This method of immigration sounds a lot like what I imagine a 'halfway house' experience might be like. Only the only thing 'done wrong' was being born in to a bad situation. A program that graduates through a series of steps and isn't chronologically based might be a better guide. Though there are two sets of complications which also need to be examined. Counseling / emotional support, and providing empowerment to the adults. The question of how to humanely handle the divide of family between a country that has a very low typical standard of living and one which is has both a higher typical standard of living and a higher /cost of survival/ is a difficult one; more difficult than I feel can be tackled even in a long comment. I'm not sure there is an easy answer for it. An easier answer for empowerment is a good social safety net. Language classes for foreigners (general education), as well as skill assessment and training for possible jobs. These should be part of the standard social safety net of all societies, and lead directly in to targeted job placement (as a replacement for 'welfare' when a worker is not disabled or otherwise unfit).
ColanR 10y ago
It's great that this worked out. The article reminds me of something else that was on HN a while ago, and the discussion pointed out that the problem lies, at least in part, with refugees that aren't willing to integrate with the host culture. In this case, it appears they were willing.
filleokus 10y ago
Compared to the Swedish model where the government handles the whole process, I find the Canadian one really interesting. Many of the success stories I've read in Swedish media is from more rural places, small villages with ≈ 100 inhabitants, where the community have stepped in and tried to help in the ways they can. And on the other hand, the worst stories are from places where essentially no "native" swedes live and the circle of unemployment and low language skills etc is just perpetuated. The swedish response have mostly been plans to place immigrants in more affluent neighbourhoods, which of course have caused NIMBY-outcries. I would be _really_ surprised to see the model mentioned in the article implemented in Sweden, but it would be interesting.
- komali2 10y ago
  Reminds me of how well the German pows in WWII integrated in rural farming communities in the USA, to the extent that they were allowed to.
  - contergan 10y ago
    Oh boy, speaking as someone who unfortunately grew up in a high Muslim immigrant neighborhood, you're in for a ride if you think Muslims will integrate as well as German or other European migrants - or at all. As far as I'm concerned that kind of immigration is pure cancer and has directly led to lowered quality of life for me and many other people here. I can't even think of a single positive aspect of Muslim immigration, especially not in a large scale - maybe you can give me some hints? Why would any sane person welcome more of those Islamic nutters into their community?
    - sctb 10y ago
      You are not welcome to insult entire groups of people on Hacker News. It violates the guidelines by being seriously uncivil and we ban accounts that post like this.
fudged71 10y ago
A few families and church groups in my Canadian network have adopted syrian families. It has been a truly positive experience to hear all the ways people are offering to help (food, shelter, jobs, transportation, socializing, childcare). And of course the handouts of delicious syrian food in return. On a trip to Halifax I bought some chocolates from a syrian business, and they later ended up on the news for their success. This is the Canada that I love. And that positivity and love absolutely trickles down through your network of peers. It's about people helping people. Does anyone else here have stories? I hope one day that America starts a similar program to make amends for the awful effects of Trump's executive orders on immigrants, americans, and travellers stuck in limbo. It occurs to me that many Americans are crowdsourcing for healthcare of their citizens, while Canadians are crowdsourcing to welcome new people to their communities. I don't mean to offend, but it seems like moving up maslow's hierarchy to me.
- throwaway0684 10y ago
  > America starts a similar program to make amends for the awful effects of Trump's executive orders on immigrants, americans, and travellers stuck in limbo. America, as a nation, is under no obligation to 'make amends' for anything -- least of all executive orders which place the interest of American citizens first.
- mpatobin 10y ago
  During the last federal election the refugee crisis was a campaign issue. I gave up social media for a while because the amount of hatred I was seeing towards the refugees was making me feel sick. When I got back on facebook I saw that my small town was planning to start a sponsorship group. I went to see how I could help and we formed a committee to bring seven refugee families to our town. I was able to help out by setting up the website, social media and helping with online donations (the group was mostly an older crowd). To date we've raised over $100k, resettled 5 families and positively changed the lives of everyone involved. All the men are working and half their wives have jobs too. Some of the children are going to school for the first time in their lives and they're learning English quickly. Its incredible to see them playing and laughing after everything they've been through. I recently moved to another city but I feel so lucky to have been a part of something that had such an impact. And I miss the coffee one of the women used to make :-/
Waterluvian 10y ago
Maybe we could borrow the Statue of Liberty for a while. Park it it the St Lawrence.
breitling 10y ago
My family has "adopted" a Syrian family and I'm working with them to help them integrate in Canada (Toronto to be exact). The biggest challenge they face is the language barrier (although they are well educated). They barely speak any English. We don't know how long it will take them to be fluent in English, but they surely will not be employable within 1 year. I met another newly arrived Syrian through them and that gentleman speaks perfect English and is an IT guy. He came here with several certifications (VMWare, PMP, MCSE, MCSD, etc). Settling down will be a relative walk in the park for him. If anyone from Toronto is able to guide an IT guy with those certifications, please let me know.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  As an immigrant to a foreign country where I didn't know the language well (Japan), I can verify that it will almost certainly take more than a year. It took me about 3 years to learn how to learn a language and to build up some fluency. I got married in Japan to a woman who didn't speak English well and we subsequently went to England for 2 years. Despite being immersed in English for the entire 2 years (I spoke to her only in English during that period), and despite studying English very hard every day, she was not able to speak well enough to hold a job. We've come back to Japan now and 2 years later, the language has sunk deeply enough that my wife could certainly hold an English language job (even though she barely spoke English for the 2 years since we got back). Language takes time to absorb. My advice (from experience and also from teaching English as a foreign language for 5 years) is to keep surrounding them with English language culture. One of the biggest things is to simply include them in activities with other Canadians. Things like barbeques, picnics, beach, skiing, sports activities, bar, restaurant, movies, whatever. Organise events with lots of people and keep introducing them. For the entire year they will probably find it uncomfortable and tiring. They may not say much. They may not understand very much of what is going on, but it is a lifeline. Also, a few tricks as an immigrant: you need to be super friendly and outgoing. People's natural reaction to seeing strangers is to be suspicious and cautious. I go for walks regularly (like every hour or so -- mainly because I work from home remotely and I need to work out some technical problem in my head). I make a point of smiling and saying hello to everyone I meet. Now I'm pretty fluent in Japanese, but when I first arrived I had virtually no ability to have a conversation. So I practiced simple exchanges about the weather, etc. I would go down the street, find the nearest lonely retired person (lots of them in rural Japan!) and just say, "It's hot today, isn't it". Then I'd let them rattle on and I'd smile. Some people didn't care to talk to me, but quite a few enjoyed the 2-3 minute chat every day. Now it's part of my life and I know virtually all of my neighbours. I am part of the community. So to sum up: Help them find opportunities to meet other people. They will find themselves completely inadequate to the task, but encourage them. Encourage them to explore and meet people in the community. Have them use whatever little language they have with people on the street. Help them become a part of the community. Language will come over time as long as they keep studying. The study is important, but it seems to also take time just to sink in, so make sure they don't get discouraged if they don't see any progress.
g123g 10y ago
Keeping all our prejudices aside, it would make logical sense to settle these refugees in Arabic speaking countries. They won't have to struggle with language, customs and other infinite issues that come with being transplanted to a totally alien culture. Being closer to their home countries will also allow them to visit their relatives still in Syria and also for those relatives to visit them.
- azernik 10y ago
  The vast majority are; something like a third of Lebanon's population is now Syrian refugees, and Turkey (non-Arab, but more similar culture) and Jordan have also absorbed incredible numbers. What the West is getting is just the overflow.
  - smnrchrds 10y ago
    You are not exaggerating. Lebonon had a population of about 5 millions and has already absorbed 2.5 million Syrian and Palestinian refugees. It's incredible and it should put the rest of the world to shame.
jameslk 10y ago
This makes a lot of sense and it should really be more common procedure, regardless of whether immigrants are refugees or those just trying to start a new life in a different country. Every country has its own set of cultural norms and these can be thought of as a protocol. When individuals don't perform on the same protocol, you get a tragedy of the commons effect. This is why I think multicultural societies often breed mistrust[0]. That's not to say that multiculturalism is at fault, only that individuals joining a new society may not be aware of the protocol (i.e. individuals can have more than one protocol). An open society should embrace helping newcomers speak this new protocol, as it would benefit their society as a whole for all citizens and soon-to-be-citizens to understand what cultural norms unite that society and move it forward. Instead of isolating immigrants in ghettos and enclaves, it seems it would be beneficial to everyone if these new immigrants are sponsored by others citizens to help them assimilate faster rather than left alienated and neglected. I understand this may not be a natural thing for us, since it seems we have a very tribal instinct. I think teaching integration and embracing/helping immigrants should be something taught at a very early age so its an accepted part of society. 0. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x/abstract;jsessionid=3D8FE906BBB77A4AADC4C5190D705FD6.f04t01 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007....
jamesgaston 10y ago
I'm on the board of a Canadian refugee resettlement group. On Vancouver Island. We just received notification that our sponsored family, who fled Mosul, will be arriving this summer. We're well aware of the 13th month issue but we are working to ensure that they will be on their feet by that time. It's a risky endeavor, we have been well trained to prepare for as many eventualities as we can, and I think we are going into it with open eyes. It just seems the right thing to do and i am pleased Canada allows private sponsors. Of yeah, my mom was a refugee from communist Chinaand her parents were refugees from Russia. I figure i gotta pay it forward.

151 points by irfansharif 10y ago

Wow. I am beyond impressed. I am from a Muslim country and I have heard more than one person say that we may have Islam on our faces, but Westerners have Islam in their hearts. I can't even imagine the effort the Canadian sponsors put into resettling these families. There is a very direct analogy to this in the early history of Islam: http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/brotherhood-established-between-migrants-and-ansar http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/brotherhood-establis... where the Muslims who fled persecution in Mecca were set up with sponsor families in Medina who helped them adapt and stand on their feet. To see that same behaviour in our purportedly selfish day and age warms me to a whole another level.

Waterluvian 10y ago
I think it may help that Canada is so young. Nobody can pretend to have a claim to this land above anyone else (except for the aboriginals, who we continue to fail.) I'm as Canadian by way of British colonization as it comes and I grew up hearing stories about how my ancestors immigrated here due to tough times at home through the 1800s. We are all immigrants.
- adventured 10y ago
  I have to be more than a little bit skeptical with that premise. There are 600+ million hispanics in North and South America, Canada has managed to allow a whopping ~400,000 of them in, representing a minuscule 1.2% of the country. The US is over 20% hispanic and about 16% black; Canada is 2.9% black. It sure looks like someone has a claim to the land. Canada's merit based immigration system was designed to intentionally keep poor immigrants out (ie the majority of the population of Latin America).
  - mythrwy 10y ago
    Not disagreeing with your overall claim but it's worth pointing out that not all Hispanics in the US are descendants of immigrants (into the US). New Mexico for instance still has families with large tracts of land granted by the Spanish Crown before the US even existed.
    - adventured 10y ago
      That's definitely understood. It's a small percentage of the number however. The US was about 81% white in 1980 and 6.4% hispanic. It's now ~63% white, with the hispanic percentage having more than tripled (~14 million to ~70 million in raw numbers (not implying all is first gen immigration obviously); an increase equal to 160% the entire population of Canada). The extreme bulk of that demographic shift is derived from relatively recent immigration (last 40 years), overwhelmingly from Latin America (the remainder mostly from Asia), and overwhelmingly relatively poor immigrants that would be mostly barred from Canada under their merit system (which is why they have so few hispanics, why they didn't participate in the hispanic population boom the US has seen, and also why that's not going to change any time soon). I'm pro immigration, and it's kind of obnoxious to watch Canadians try to stand on a soapbox while ignoring the facts.
      - castle-bravo 10y ago
        Canada does allow a limited number of refugees to enter, but for the most part our immigration system isn't altruistic. We don't allow people to enter and stay on the basis of their need to live here, but on our need for their skills. We have to have an expectation that immigrants will earn a reasonable income, or they will become a burden on our already strained social services. If they are unskilled (i.e. poor) or their skills are not in demand in Canada, then we can't afford to allow them to stay here in poverty.
  - white-flame 10y ago
    The parent was talking about how recently the Canadian (vs pre-Canadian, for lack of a better distinction terminology) population has moved there, which isn't long enough to "feel" like ancestral connections claiming the land as theirs by family roots and birthright. A side effect is that settlements, cities, and expansion are quite new, globally-speaking, so there's not a lot of related deep physical history there either. All of those are orthogonal to the demographics. Where demographics come into play is that, in my experience, the issues of First Nations people are more a part of common Canadian politics than Native American issues are in the USA. That focus likely also plays against a sense of other Canadians feeling too rooted there.

frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago

Great article. I wonder if something like this could be used in the US to help bridge the partisan divide on immigration. A deal where we reduce immigration but ask people to sponsor as some sort of civic duty. I think it might reduce anti-immigrant sentiment if Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants face. I also think a lot of the Trump voterbase feels that their culture is being wiped out by immigrants, a sponsor program may give them some feeling of control back.

zxcvvcxz 10y ago
> A deal where we reduce immigration but ask people to sponsor as some sort of civic duty. How about you can have all the immigration you want if you sponsor it? > I think it might reduce anti-immigrant sentiment if Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants face. I think it might reduce the pro-immigrant sentiment if (certain) Americans were in close contact with the struggles immigrants bring.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > How about you can have all the immigration you want if you sponsor it? Pretty much all immigrant visa categories (and certainly the vast majority of actual visas granted) are sponsored, either employer or family, so, sure, just uncap all those categories and be done?
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    ^Yep. When I was sponsored, the US government basically told us that if we try and claim any public benefits for the next 5 years, they'd come after my sponsor for reimbursement. Sponsor had to show adequate financial resources to sponsor our family. This probably does not apply for refugees, but definitely does for family-based sponsorships.
    - verelo 10y ago
      Canada does the same thing. I'm a spousal sponsored immigrant and if I were to claim anything as such my partner is actually the one the govnernemnt holds responsible for funding it [from australia, so hardly the same category as a refugee]

xupybd 10y ago

One thing really stands out here: "with enough support, poor Muslims from rural Syria could adapt, belong and eventually prosper and contribute in Canada" I'm fearful of allowing huge numbers of refuges into another country as the number of social problems could overwhelm the host country. But absolutely with enough support this could work. Not talking financial support, but as this article mentions people taking time to help these people adjust to the new country. I'm surprised in this modern age it happened. Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. It's heart warming to see a counter example.

zzalpha 10y ago
Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. You've just identified one of the many things that I believe Canadians see as a value that distinguishes us from our friends to the south. Whether that's fair or not is something else entirely. But I think it's true that, generally speaking, Americans see individualism as one of their defining values, which directly informs a whole host of other derived values (belief in the power of capitalism, distrust of government, etc). My experience (for what it's worth) is that Canadians, on average, may value those things, but I don't believe they are seen as a defining element of the Canadian identity.
- eigenvector 10y ago
  I wouldn't draw such a conclusion just from this article. One of the things it highlighted, and that I feel as well as a Canadian, is that to a certain extent the sponsors acted in ways that benefited themselves over the refugees. Like the lady who wouldn't show them how to use the bus, because she's wealthy and doesn't ride buses. Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. People are people. I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. In fact our own government put the brakes on the sponsorship program early this year.

leereeves 10y ago

> There is a very direct analogy to this in the early history of Islam: where the Muslims who fled persecution in Mecca were set up with sponsor families in Medina Then the sponsor families were conquered, along with the rest of Medina...

mkaziz 10y ago
No they weren't? There was no conquest on Medina. I have no idea what you're trying to say.
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago
  I think they are trying to parody the fears of some citizens of host nations who fear problems from accepting refugees?
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    Oh. That went completely over my head. Thank you!
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- leereeves 10y ago
  I've heard various stories. The claim that the people and rulers of Medina voluntarily submitted to Muhammad seems unbelievable to me, given Islam's history of "coerced" conversions, but what's beyond dispute is that Muhammad became the ruler of Medina. Whether that was completely voluntary...well, history is written by the victors.
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    ... you can say that about any historical event ever and massage it to fit your narrative. The commandment for Muslims to fight wasn't sent down till a year or two after the emigration, so they were quite literally not allowed to fight or "subdue" or "coerce" anyone. There's a /tonne/ of evidence that the emigration was peaceful (though there were certainly subgroups opposed to it politically and ideologically). It is quite literally one of the least contentious pieces of Islamic history.

mjevans 10y ago

An enlightening read. I would like to offer my own definition for success. Failure is easy to define, deviation from expected outcomes, suffering, etc. Success is not the absence of failure. In this case success is a bright future with many options for the children. Success is integrating the children in to the culture of the new host country; this does not require forsaking their heritage, but it may mean becoming more or slightly different than it.

mjevans 10y ago

This method of immigration sounds a lot like what I imagine a 'halfway house' experience might be like. Only the only thing 'done wrong' was being born in to a bad situation. A program that graduates through a series of steps and isn't chronologically based might be a better guide. Though there are two sets of complications which also need to be examined. Counseling / emotional support, and providing empowerment to the adults. The question of how to humanely handle the divide of family between a country that has a very low typical standard of living and one which is has both a higher typical standard of living and a higher /cost of survival/ is a difficult one; more difficult than I feel can be tackled even in a long comment. I'm not sure there is an easy answer for it. An easier answer for empowerment is a good social safety net. Language classes for foreigners (general education), as well as skill assessment and training for possible jobs. These should be part of the standard social safety net of all societies, and lead directly in to targeted job placement (as a replacement for 'welfare' when a worker is not disabled or otherwise unfit).

ColanR 10y ago

It's great that this worked out. The article reminds me of something else that was on HN a while ago, and the discussion pointed out that the problem lies, at least in part, with refugees that aren't willing to integrate with the host culture. In this case, it appears they were willing.

filleokus 10y ago

Compared to the Swedish model where the government handles the whole process, I find the Canadian one really interesting. Many of the success stories I've read in Swedish media is from more rural places, small villages with ≈ 100 inhabitants, where the community have stepped in and tried to help in the ways they can. And on the other hand, the worst stories are from places where essentially no "native" swedes live and the circle of unemployment and low language skills etc is just perpetuated. The swedish response have mostly been plans to place immigrants in more affluent neighbourhoods, which of course have caused NIMBY-outcries. I would be _really_ surprised to see the model mentioned in the article implemented in Sweden, but it would be interesting.

komali2 10y ago
Reminds me of how well the German pows in WWII integrated in rural farming communities in the USA, to the extent that they were allowed to.
- contergan 10y ago
  Oh boy, speaking as someone who unfortunately grew up in a high Muslim immigrant neighborhood, you're in for a ride if you think Muslims will integrate as well as German or other European migrants - or at all. As far as I'm concerned that kind of immigration is pure cancer and has directly led to lowered quality of life for me and many other people here. I can't even think of a single positive aspect of Muslim immigration, especially not in a large scale - maybe you can give me some hints? Why would any sane person welcome more of those Islamic nutters into their community?
  - sctb 10y ago
    You are not welcome to insult entire groups of people on Hacker News. It violates the guidelines by being seriously uncivil and we ban accounts that post like this.

fudged71 10y ago

A few families and church groups in my Canadian network have adopted syrian families. It has been a truly positive experience to hear all the ways people are offering to help (food, shelter, jobs, transportation, socializing, childcare). And of course the handouts of delicious syrian food in return. On a trip to Halifax I bought some chocolates from a syrian business, and they later ended up on the news for their success. This is the Canada that I love. And that positivity and love absolutely trickles down through your network of peers. It's about people helping people. Does anyone else here have stories? I hope one day that America starts a similar program to make amends for the awful effects of Trump's executive orders on immigrants, americans, and travellers stuck in limbo. It occurs to me that many Americans are crowdsourcing for healthcare of their citizens, while Canadians are crowdsourcing to welcome new people to their communities. I don't mean to offend, but it seems like moving up maslow's hierarchy to me.

throwaway0684 10y ago
> America starts a similar program to make amends for the awful effects of Trump's executive orders on immigrants, americans, and travellers stuck in limbo. America, as a nation, is under no obligation to 'make amends' for anything -- least of all executive orders which place the interest of American citizens first.
mpatobin 10y ago
During the last federal election the refugee crisis was a campaign issue. I gave up social media for a while because the amount of hatred I was seeing towards the refugees was making me feel sick. When I got back on facebook I saw that my small town was planning to start a sponsorship group. I went to see how I could help and we formed a committee to bring seven refugee families to our town. I was able to help out by setting up the website, social media and helping with online donations (the group was mostly an older crowd). To date we've raised over $100k, resettled 5 families and positively changed the lives of everyone involved. All the men are working and half their wives have jobs too. Some of the children are going to school for the first time in their lives and they're learning English quickly. Its incredible to see them playing and laughing after everything they've been through. I recently moved to another city but I feel so lucky to have been a part of something that had such an impact. And I miss the coffee one of the women used to make :-/

Waterluvian 10y ago

Maybe we could borrow the Statue of Liberty for a while. Park it it the St Lawrence.

breitling 10y ago

My family has "adopted" a Syrian family and I'm working with them to help them integrate in Canada (Toronto to be exact). The biggest challenge they face is the language barrier (although they are well educated). They barely speak any English. We don't know how long it will take them to be fluent in English, but they surely will not be employable within 1 year. I met another newly arrived Syrian through them and that gentleman speaks perfect English and is an IT guy. He came here with several certifications (VMWare, PMP, MCSE, MCSD, etc). Settling down will be a relative walk in the park for him. If anyone from Toronto is able to guide an IT guy with those certifications, please let me know.

mikekchar 10y ago
As an immigrant to a foreign country where I didn't know the language well (Japan), I can verify that it will almost certainly take more than a year. It took me about 3 years to learn how to learn a language and to build up some fluency. I got married in Japan to a woman who didn't speak English well and we subsequently went to England for 2 years. Despite being immersed in English for the entire 2 years (I spoke to her only in English during that period), and despite studying English very hard every day, she was not able to speak well enough to hold a job. We've come back to Japan now and 2 years later, the language has sunk deeply enough that my wife could certainly hold an English language job (even though she barely spoke English for the 2 years since we got back). Language takes time to absorb. My advice (from experience and also from teaching English as a foreign language for 5 years) is to keep surrounding them with English language culture. One of the biggest things is to simply include them in activities with other Canadians. Things like barbeques, picnics, beach, skiing, sports activities, bar, restaurant, movies, whatever. Organise events with lots of people and keep introducing them. For the entire year they will probably find it uncomfortable and tiring. They may not say much. They may not understand very much of what is going on, but it is a lifeline. Also, a few tricks as an immigrant: you need to be super friendly and outgoing. People's natural reaction to seeing strangers is to be suspicious and cautious. I go for walks regularly (like every hour or so -- mainly because I work from home remotely and I need to work out some technical problem in my head). I make a point of smiling and saying hello to everyone I meet. Now I'm pretty fluent in Japanese, but when I first arrived I had virtually no ability to have a conversation. So I practiced simple exchanges about the weather, etc. I would go down the street, find the nearest lonely retired person (lots of them in rural Japan!) and just say, "It's hot today, isn't it". Then I'd let them rattle on and I'd smile. Some people didn't care to talk to me, but quite a few enjoyed the 2-3 minute chat every day. Now it's part of my life and I know virtually all of my neighbours. I am part of the community. So to sum up: Help them find opportunities to meet other people. They will find themselves completely inadequate to the task, but encourage them. Encourage them to explore and meet people in the community. Have them use whatever little language they have with people on the street. Help them become a part of the community. Language will come over time as long as they keep studying. The study is important, but it seems to also take time just to sink in, so make sure they don't get discouraged if they don't see any progress.

g123g 10y ago

Keeping all our prejudices aside, it would make logical sense to settle these refugees in Arabic speaking countries. They won't have to struggle with language, customs and other infinite issues that come with being transplanted to a totally alien culture. Being closer to their home countries will also allow them to visit their relatives still in Syria and also for those relatives to visit them.

azernik 10y ago
The vast majority are; something like a third of Lebanon's population is now Syrian refugees, and Turkey (non-Arab, but more similar culture) and Jordan have also absorbed incredible numbers. What the West is getting is just the overflow.
- smnrchrds 10y ago
  You are not exaggerating. Lebonon had a population of about 5 millions and has already absorbed 2.5 million Syrian and Palestinian refugees. It's incredible and it should put the rest of the world to shame.

jameslk 10y ago

This makes a lot of sense and it should really be more common procedure, regardless of whether immigrants are refugees or those just trying to start a new life in a different country. Every country has its own set of cultural norms and these can be thought of as a protocol. When individuals don't perform on the same protocol, you get a tragedy of the commons effect. This is why I think multicultural societies often breed mistrust[0]. That's not to say that multiculturalism is at fault, only that individuals joining a new society may not be aware of the protocol (i.e. individuals can have more than one protocol). An open society should embrace helping newcomers speak this new protocol, as it would benefit their society as a whole for all citizens and soon-to-be-citizens to understand what cultural norms unite that society and move it forward. Instead of isolating immigrants in ghettos and enclaves, it seems it would be beneficial to everyone if these new immigrants are sponsored by others citizens to help them assimilate faster rather than left alienated and neglected. I understand this may not be a natural thing for us, since it seems we have a very tribal instinct. I think teaching integration and embracing/helping immigrants should be something taught at a very early age so its an accepted part of society. 0. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x/abstract;jsessionid=3D8FE906BBB77A4AADC4C5190D705FD6.f04t01 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007....

jamesgaston 10y ago

I'm on the board of a Canadian refugee resettlement group. On Vancouver Island. We just received notification that our sponsored family, who fled Mosul, will be arriving this summer. We're well aware of the 13th month issue but we are working to ensure that they will be on their feet by that time. It's a risky endeavor, we have been well trained to prepare for as many eventualities as we can, and I think we are going into it with open eyes. It just seems the right thing to do and i am pleased Canada allows private sponsors. Of yeah, my mom was a refugee from communist Chinaand her parents were refugees from Russia. I figure i gotta pay it forward.