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Can sleep deprivation cure depression?
- baus 10y agoJet lag was a major contributing factor to a bipolar episode I had in Brazil late last year (1), but I will admit to being skeptical of the advice to avoid sleep. As much as I love to travel, at this point I have to cognizant of how it affects my mental health https://crisisofthemind.com/fallout-from-an-international-bipolar-episode-f9e1d9358308 https://crisisofthemind.com/fallout-from-an-international-bi...
- adamnemecek 10y agoI'm hoping that society will adjust to recognize this because it feels like in certain circles, saying that you need to sleep seems to be seen a weakness.
- mtdewcmu 10y agoI think that's part of a near-universal fallacy that conflates good health with strength of character. In the situation you described, having the ability to shrug off lack of sleep is a source of pride, as if it was entirely about willpower; in fact it is more likely related to health.
- maxerickson 10y agoThere is even a genetic component to it, at least for a small portion of people. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-sleep-less/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-...
- tabeth 10y agoI wonder how much coffee plays into this. I've yet to meet someone who sleeps consistently more than 8 hours per night who feels the need to drink coffee. edit: 8 quality hours of sleep, e.g. you wake up and you're not tired.
- colmvp 10y agoOn the flipside, it's kind of crazy that there are people who are able to function consistently with very little sleep. A friend of mine says that if she gets eight hours of sleep, she feels incredibly groggy. But five hours? Perfect. She's been like that her entire life. I was astounded. She directed me to Ying-Hui Fu's study of DEC2.
- roywiggins 10y agoI'm one of those people. When I'm in the habit of drinking coffee, regardless of how much sleep I get, if I miss my scheduled caffeine I get withdrawal symptoms- sick to my stomach, headaches. I'm currently most of the way through slowly on my caffeine intake, though, and it's been going well- it's just abrupt withdrawal that causes problems.
- brianwawok 10y agoHi. I sleep 8.5h a night and I need coffee. Nice to meet you.
- Bluestrike2 10y agoIt depends on how much more than 8 hours we're talking about. Consistently oversleeping, especially 10+ hours a night, can be indicative of some potentially serious problems that either already exist or may in the future. Rather than making someone feel well-rested, it often has the opposite effect: confusion, lack of energy, sluggishness, etc. due to a poorer quality of sleep in general. I'd imagine that self-medicating with lots of caffeine is a pretty natural response for most people in that situation even though it doesn't actually solve the problem.
- ChrisClark 10y ago> quality hours Yeah, that's the important part. I can sleep 10 hours and seem to get nothing out of it and still need coffee. And the coffee may be part of why I'm also not sleeping well. Not a good loop to be in.
- rubicon33 10y agohuh? I sleep 8 hours a night and I definitely "need" coffee. It's a chemical thing at this point.
- roywiggins 10y agoI wonder what damage our twice yearly clock changes do. An hour doesn't seem like much but, giving an entire population a little bit of jet lag simultaneously has to be bad for us, right?
- busyant 10y agoI've tested myself for the past 10 years and it seems as though I get sick (cold/flu-like) more frequently when we lose an hour. It's anecdata and small sample size and other possible confounding variables, but I think there is a kernel of truth in there.
- Thrillington 10y agoI know you acknowledged that's anactodal, but we lose an hour at the end of flu season. You're more likely to be sick during this time of the year. The clock change has nothing to do with it.
- transcranial 10y agoThere are definitely measurable population-level effects, like increased traffic accidents [1] and heart attacks [2]. And given that its purported benefits are completely unsubstantiated, it's amazing that DST still exists. [1] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20140100 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20140100 [2] http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc0807104 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc0807104
- weaksauce 10y agoI wish we would all go on DST and be done with it forever. The extra hour of usable daylight after work is a net win for societies mental health. We have farming machines that do the heavy lifting and are mostly automated now anyway. Unlike when it was enacted, there simply are much fewer farmers.
- joecool1029 10y ago
- 3pt14159 10y agoMy father, brother and I all only need about 5 or 6 hours of sleep. We all just wake up, no matter when we go to bed or how light or dark the room is at night or in the morning. I strongly suspect we have that gene that lets you sleep less, but NYT is indicating that they think I'm depressed based on the embedded interactive. I don't feel depressed. Short of a genomic test, how can one differentiate?
- chrisper 10y agoIf you go to bed always at the same time and always wake up at the same time ( = having a proper sleeping schedule) and do not feel tired, irritated, etc., then you are fine. A lot of people do not realize how important a good sleeping schedule is for both physical and mental health. I go to bed roughly at the same time every day and get up at the same time every day as well and it really helps me with a lot of things.
- lj3 10y agoWhy is there a comment like this on every single HN post lately? Yes, you fall outside of the fat part of the bell curve. Congrats. What's your point? A single outlier does not disprove the post. edited to add: fat part of the bell curve, since being outside of the bell curve entirely is not what I meant.
- Y_Y 10y ago> fall outside of the bell curve You know that Gaussian distributions specifically include outliers.
- omginternets 10y agoYou know it's just an expression right? If we change it to "fall outside of 2-sigma", will you allow us to return to the actual point, or will you continue with your passive-agressive hair-splitting?
- Y_Y 10y ago
- update 10y ago> Tübingen who was hospitalized for depression and claimed that she normally kept her symptoms in check by taking all-night bike rides. He subsequently demonstrated in a group of depressed patients that a night of complete sleep deprivation produced an immediate, significant improvement in mood in about 60 percent of the group. I thought this bit was neat. I'd heard that sleep deprivation can bring on a feeling of euphoria, and anecdotally, it has worked for me
- rangibaby 10y agoThat sounds like bipolar to me
- SCHiM 10y agoI've noticed this too, I don't think this is specific for people with a depression though. If I have about 4/5 hours of sleep I will be less smart the next day, but engaging with others or completing tasks despite the tiredness results in a huge boost to mood and a feeling of exhilaration and happiness. That is not to say you don't feel tired, especially when the work has not yet been completed, and the day is just starting. YMMV, N=1 and all that...
- sandworm101 10y agoMood yes. Ask the kids who rave all night. But cognition? Im not convinced. I find my memory and problem solving abilities really drop after 30+ hours without sleep. Maybe it is a good tool for the depressed, but i would not suggest it to those looking to boost otherwise healthy/normal minds.
- Ambroos 10y agoI sometimes go a whole night without sleep when I'm nervous about something important. I function much better on no sleep than on less than 5 hours of sleep (for one night only that is). What I've noticed is that without sleep, some of my abilities are stronger, but everything memory-related is much weaker. I notice everything extremely fast, think quickly and react much faster than normally. My focus is pretty crazy. But, I can't remember some things I know, and detailed memories of that day after a sleepless night are usually gone by the next day. I think it might be some sort of survival mode.
- failrate 10y agoMy experience is that sleep deprivation leads me into a manic episode, but any benefits are outweighed by the inevitable crash. My depression is generally treated effectively by a rigid sleep schedule and lots of sunlight.
- ryanmarsh 10y agoQue: people who deprive themselves of sleep and then fall into depression because that's what happens when you don't get enough sleep over a long enough period
- always_good 10y ago> Que It's 'cue'. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cue http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cue
- dominotw 10y agoI know the answer without even reading the article. NO.
- bbcbasic 10y agoHail Betteridge
- mwpmaybe 10y agoAs an interesting anecdatum, I've noticed that when I binge-sleep, i.e. for more than 8.5 hours, I feel depressed.
- LordHumungous 10y agoYeah that happens to me too. It's almost like a sleep hangover. Very weird.
- emersonrsantos 10y agoThis is very interesting. I hope to see treatments that not only uses melatonin and environmental light, but one that also modifies artificial light (indoor/computer/phone/TV/etc...) to optimize wellness. Kind of a F.lux of Things.
- krrrh 10y agoOne option is wearing blue-blocking sunglasses in the evening. It's cheap, and I know a couple of people who do it and believe it has helped with sleep.
- palavsen 10y agoMy experience is sleep deprivation increases depression
- khedoros1 10y agoMe too. I tend to be more depressed when I don't sleep as well, although this could be correlation rather than causation.
- zippergz 10y agoFor me as well. Sometimes I go through periods where I stay up too late, and I almost always end up feeling depressed after a few days of it.
- aethos 10y agoI think it's a matter of degree. If you usually sleep 7 hours a night, and you're only getting 4, then you will feel tired grumpy and sad. But if you stay up all night, you may start to feel euphoric and energetic. Of course, you'll need a good long sleep the next day or so.
- lazyasciiart 10y agoAccording to the article, this is the case for slightly over 50% of people. Hardly good enough odds to suggest that someone who doesn't experience this is just 'doing it wrong'.
- ad 10y agoSeems like the "cure" comes when you get the sleep deprivation from waking up early, not staying up late. Well it's a little more complicated since they start with a day of total deprivation, but the days after are focused on waking up early. Something I might try.
- homakov 10y agoCount me in. 1 month of insomnia and I'm googline for a safe way to go to heaven.
- stretchwithme 10y agoI don't know about sleep and depression. My Mom was bipolar and the topic never came up, other than her being up to all hours when she was manic. But I recently read an interesting article about vitamin D and that lead me to supplement magnesium and vitamins D, A and K. I only do it once every three days to be conservative. http://www.precisionnutrition.com/stop-vitamin-d And I've found I'm much more decisive and likely to take action. In fact, last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise. Instead of getting to the office after 10, I now get in by 8 most days. I keep to it on weekends too and go to a coffee shop. I also recently changed my evening routine during the week, cutting out TV and stopped eating chips after dinner. For the morning and the evening changes, I devised a routine of things I do that make doing the hard parts easier. In the morning, I turn the light on, use the restroom, drink some water, set a timer for ten minutes, relax until it goes off, exercise, shower, dress and get out the door. I try to stick to this every day.
- pbhjpbhj 10y agoDo you mind me asking what age you are? >last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise // Where do you live that gets light on December mornings?
- kamaln7 10y agoI recently bought a Philips HF3520. I've read great things about it but unfortunately I'm too heavy of a sleeper that it doesn't work for me. Give it a shot, it's definitely worth it in the long run if it works for you.
- nlh 10y agoThe section in the article on jet lag mitigation was extremely confusing -- the author wrote of evening light and morning light but was unclear which time zone he was referring to. Can someone explain a bit more clearly? If someone is traveling from SF to Europe or SF to Asia, when should melatonin and light be used optimally?
- surfmike 10y agoNot sure what is optimal, but I find melatonin 30min before the normal bedtime in a new country helps a lot (3mg day one, 1-2mg days two and three; 3 days total).
- krrrh 10y agoInteresting point here, if you search old HN discussions you can find a reference, but 200-250ug is the effective dose for melatonin, and larger amounts have a slightly decreased effect. I know it's never sold this way, but it's something you might want to experiment with (quartering 1mg pills or taking a few drops of a 10mg/ml liquid works well here).
- appleiigs 10y agoI don't know what the author is saying. His example of NYC to Rome is flying east and he recommends darkness in the morning. But then 2 paragraphs later, he says "Travel east and you’ll need morning light". I find the entire article hard to read, but I am pre-coffee right now. I find that I can go one night with minimal sleep and function just fine during the next day. So if I was going from NYC to Rome, I'd lift the shades in the early morning in Rome to make sure I'm super tired by the evening and go to bed at the correct time.
- valuearb 10y agoI thought this was interesting until I saw the author was a psychiatrist, and psychiatry has zero scientific validity. And his article is just referencing a bunch of tiny sample size studies of dubious merit.
- jakewins 10y agoPsychiatrists hold a medical doctorate, so unless you are claiming that medical science has no scientific validity I believe you are thinking of Psychology, which is an entirely different field.
- anigbrowl 10y agoPsychiatry does have some validity, but clinically and scientifically it's a disaster, basically just stamp collecting and black box experiments. If psychiatry took its own project truly seriously then it would merge with neurology but frankly I think most psychiatrists find neurology too intimidating and son't want to give up their existing social benefits so it's not happening.
- fjdlwlv 10y agoI studied chemistry in college. That doesn't mean computer programming is a chemical discipline. Psychiatrists go to medical school so they can prescribe medicine without killing a patient, not because medical school has a scientifically rigorous psychiatry curriculum. Remember that homosexuality was a psychiatric disease until recently.
- jakewins 10y agoSo, this may simply be because this differs between countries - I live in the US. Here, you do not study psychiatry in med school, it's something you study after you complete regular medical school. The rough path looks like: - 4 years of undergrad, ideally with one major in Biology - MCAT - 4 years of general medical school - 4 years of specialized psychiatry residency, usually at university hospital Meaning, here in the US it's a medical discipline, but this may not be the case where you live. You're absolutely right that there is a horrific history to the field of psychiatry - homosexuality indeed wasn't unlisted until a little over 40 years ago. However, this is rapidly changing with the advent of tools like PCR and Western Blotting, which allows psychiatry to research mental disease on the level of individual gene expression and proteins.
- benevol 10y agoIf you suffer from depression, you should thoroughly research LSD and then make your fully informed personal decision. On the negative side, this substance may become one of the reasons the pharmaceutical industry will lose recurrent revenues from disappearing dependency on expensive anti-depressants.
- anigbrowl 10y agoLSD is not an automatic cure for depression, and definitely not a permanent one. That said it's had by far the best impact on mine.
- krrrh 10y agoThe research on Ketamine as a one-shot cure is very promising too. Microdosing of LSD or psilocybin also has some interesting anecdsta behind it. There is definitely a lot of research to be done on these and other psychotropics like Ayahuasca/DMT, and MDMA. Organizations like MAPS are starting to get this work done.
- kolinko 10y agoLSD can help breaking bad patterns, but if someone has messed up eurotransmitter genetics, after two weeks they will return to the baseline :( If you read reports of people after psychodelics, for many of them, after two weeks the symptoms return. But yehah, people should research it more, and try it. Same with MDMA for fighting with traumas and anxiety.
- reddytowns 10y agoAlso, on the negative side, it can make you believe extraordinary claims without a corresponding amount of evidence. You sound like someone I know who is an acid head. He also has some far out there beliefs that he has no evidence to back up with, acid is a cure all among them, although his life is very messed up. I've never tried it , personally, but I think a lot of people that take it end up believing something or some things that do not follow. This can end up great for a person if it involves their own success and it gives them the drive to pursue it where others would give up (this is what I believe happened to Steve Jobs). But it can also have profound negative effects. The guy I knew used to be a good friend, have a good job, and on a great track , but now he's running around trying to cajole money from people and systematically lies about his problems.
- nabla9 10y agoInpatient wake therapy has been used to treat hospitalized patients to jumpstart the antidepressant. Relapse happens soon after the treatment ends.
- anigbrowl 10y agoI'm sure it works great for some people and very poorly for others. I am disappointed by this headline though. While the story is interesting, 'can X CURE depression?!'is basically clickbaity bullshit, and if the NYT is serious about the value of journalism it should abandon clickbaiting as a strategy, for two reasons. One, it's because of shullshit headlines like this that people in general distrust the media in general. Two, people who suffer from depression are really suffering, and exploiting that (and the suffering of their caregivers) for an eye-grabbing headline that's basically bullshit is an unethical exploitation of their medical condition for profit.
- tovacinni 10y agoI don't know why this makes you so mad, but the title definitely helped me be interested in the article and I ended up learning a few things about myself through the article.
- kolinko 10y agoThe article's title (not the HN title) says: "the sleep schedule is making you sick". That is blatantly untrue. For a large part of the population it is not, and even the content of the article acknowledges that.
- marojejian 10y agoYes, since this isn't the headline of the actual piece, shouldn't this be flagged?
- grzm 10y agoIn general, I'd say no. Make a note of the actual title, and contact a mod to update it (via the Contact link in the footer).
- lormayna 10y agoFor my experience sleep deprivation increase aggressivity and nervousness.
- psyc 10y agoSeems like curing pain in your foot by hitting your thumb with a hammer.
- always_good 10y agoTo chime in among the other comments, most of which don't address the article either: I was a night owl + stimulant fiend until I started working out in the morning. Decided to pull the trigger on a daily 9am Crossfit habit. Now I'm too tired to stay awake past 11pm or so.
- make3 10y agoThinking of the recent reproducibility crisis in psychology, I'm wondering how you can prove this without the placebo effect. How does someone try not sleeping without knowing if they are not sleeping? Or do you compare with people doing something else that is known to be useless? like a sugar pill. Thinking about how different colors of placebo in antidepressants have more or less intense effects, I wonder if the fact that using a placebo so different from the actual thing makes it pointless.
- pharrington 10y agoObviously the proper starting point isn't comparing to placebo; it's gathering enough data to develop baseline expected rates of change before altering the variable you're testing.
- valuearb 10y agoJust accept that psychiatry and most psychology has no basis in science.
- Broken_Hippo 10y agoI think it is quite impossible for folks to sleep-but-not sleeping. It is kind of like testing LSD against a placebo - it is rather obvious after some time has passed which has the real thing and which doesn't. It is still quite obvious that it works. In this case, it'll be somewhat obvious who slept and who did not. There simply isn't a way to fake that. But we can compare the results of different types of sleep.
- demonshalo 10y agoweed cures my depression. so why deprive myself of something I enjoy doing?
- ringe 10y agoNo.
- clbrook 10y agoI'm not an expert in either of these areas (VR or depression), but after reading this I began to wonder if virtual reality could somehow provide a solution or at least mitigate the effects of a jet lagged traveler and/or a person suffering from depression by 'normalizing' their circadian rhythm.
- JasonSage 10y ago> Most people’s natural cycle is somewhat longer than the 24-hour solar day, which means that, left to our own devices, we would get quickly get out of sync with the external world. I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep. A little while ago, I made a commitment to myself to sleep when I was tired and to get up when I was rested. I eased into a schedule where every day I got up and went to bed about an hour later every day. This has been my schedule for the past 9 months or so. I sleep 8 to 10 hours per night. Every night I go to bed about an hour later than the night before. My schedule rotates about 6-8 hours per week, and about 12-14 hours every two weeks, meaning I do a complete rotation about once a month. During this time I've been vastly more productive and happy, I've had many fewer emotional swings toward anger or sadness, and I'm much more calm and less anxious in general. My sleep schedule is easy to adhere to and self-corrects if I ever need to be up early/late or at a certain time. I even have an easier time making scheduled meeting times because I'm rested enough to be able to get up early when I need to. Interestingly, I'm consistently well-rested and alert with my schedule despite having zero dependence on the natural sunlight cycle. I think this is because sunlight has a much smaller effect on me in the morning than computer light does in the evening.
- Judgmentality 10y agoWith your sleep schedule constantly shifting, how do you manage day-to-day activities? You must have a job with very flexible hours for that to work. But even things like going to the store and seeing a doctor must be slightly more difficult if you might be asleep from morning to afternoon. With 9 months of data, how consistently do you shift your schedule by 1 hour each day? I'd imagine there are fluctuations, but I guess if it's reliable you could schedule things on certain days.
- egillie 10y agoThe ideal would be to work someplace like this http://www.space.com/17815-mars-rover-jet-lag.html http://www.space.com/17815-mars-rover-jet-lag.html with a 24 hours + 40 minute "day"
- iharhajster 10y agoMy anxiety and depression kicked in in 2006, after several triggers coincided. Some that I remember now are: dissapointment in my "friends", my inability to digest some college courses that had been way above my level of comprehension, falling in love with person A, while person B had fallen in love with me, alcohol overdose habit, stopping going to Sunday sermons after being dissapointed with local priest, pressure from my enviornment and myself to be best at everything I do, and so on. After that day X, I spent a whole week in bed, and started to behave strange. So that left my parents no other option, but to eventually take me to psychiatrist. When she put me on antidepressants, I started to act even worse. I wrote and drew on blackboards at college breaks, once asked a profssor in the middle of his lecture " what is time?", I wrote in my sister's chat while she was afk and talked nonsence to she's friends, I started to have all sorts of crazy ideas and I wrote on all walls and furniture in my room. I can't really know exacly what happened, but my brain started a roller coaster ride between being uterlly depressed to extreme overthinking and I had a thought that I somehow controlled the reality by changing the mood I was in. At the same time all inhibitors were gone. A part of the feeling I had I can relate to a movie "A beautiful mind". That part of it that scares the uninformed viewer. So after regulating my treatment, my state become good enough for my parents to send me to the psychologist. Too bad she passed a few years latter. RIP. I mean she was top class. I had about 7-8 90-minutes sessions until my state became a-well-functioning-member-of-society again. My family's support was unprecendented. After a few more months I satrted team gaming heavily. After a year more my psychiatrist removed my therapy alltogether. After 1 more year I returned to church (other one) to youth choir and never had this thing again. The main thing that kept me alive and sane through my darkest hours was thought that I was once happy, and if God existed, he would not let me perish. This was just a hell one has to go through to get to heaven. Sorry for being a little off topic, I just wanted to share what had helped me. Oh, one thing, if you are diagnosed with anxiety and depression, hang in there and talk to somebody. It's not permanent. It passes. I wish you the best. ih
- peterburkimsher 10y agoSleep deprivation amplifies my emotions. The highs become higher, and the lows are lower. Like an op-amp. Prayer and music helps to cope with the lows. Like a diode. Sleeping less to wake up early and pray before work has had a huge emotional benefit. It's like an half-wave rectifier.
- 392c91e8165b 10y agoSleep deprivation would be a bad idea for me because sleep helps the immune system, and my immune system needs all the help it can get (because of my chronic infectious disease). I have found however that _listening to music_ during sleep will prevent my sleeping a lot from having a depressant effect on my mood. I recommend avoiding music contain exciting or bracing passages; you don't want your sympathetic nervous system to become active during sleep. If I learn something that I want to retain, then I don't listen to music that night, because the same process (REM sleep?) that tends to depress the mood also helps with the consolidation of new learnings and new skills.
- iharhajster 10y agoAbout jet lag and so forth, why not try forget about DST and time zones and use UTC? There are already people working night shifts and feeding babies :), everywhere, so we can assume, the number on our watch doesn't correlate to a certain mood-I-must-be-in-at-this-hour. After all, if we ever leave for another planet, having single clock for single planet sure shall make communication easier than having time zones. Somebody always has eye bags.
- nkkollaw 10y agoMy GF has major depression, and slept 3-4 hours/night for months before she started taking sleeping pills. Didn't seem to help with her depression in the slightest.
- imissmyjuno 10y agoI always get euphoric during sleep deprivation as well, however even if it is a "cure" it is not sustainable. I believe this effect during sleep deprivation is due to dopaminergic supersensitivity.
- WastedSanity 10y agoI think it does help, but it can also be really detrimental as well.
- majorarcher 10y agoToo much sleep can also cause depression. I would know I sometimes sleep during the day and when i wake up i get upset that i did accomplish the things i wanted to do during the day.
- safeandsound 10y agoThe New York to Italy example in the article is a bit confusing to me. Seems that there's about 6 hours difference between Milan and New York, and the flight itself is 8~9 hours. Leaving New York at 6PM, arrives Milan at 3AM EST, 9AM Milan time. "Instead of shifting you earlier to Italian time, it makes you feel it’s even later — that the night is over and it’s already morning." Does the body choose to this because shifting to "already morning" is smaller difference(6 hours) than "still not night time" (18 hours)?
- verulito 10y agoDepression is a symptom of sleep apnea, which is essentially sleep deprivation. In fact, the disease was only uncovered because psychiatrists at Stanford were noticing that all their depression patients were complaining about their sleep.