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Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant w

by us0r 10y ago

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list. This plus public payroll records (such as http://transparentcalifornia.com/ http://transparentcalifornia.com/) probably took them quite far.

creaghpatr 10y ago
Wouldn't be surprised if this concept spurs its own line of copycat startups i.e. "Uber Greyball for X"
rootsudo 10y ago
Correct, First siz digits are the BIN. This is how you identify a CC and how carders can guess your limits. e.g. some cards are only allowed to customers with certain credit card profiles.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> [credit card BIN numbers] plus public payroll records Do California public records really make available where specific public employees bank?
- gankedfrank 10y ago
  My aunt's boyfriend works for California govt and his home address is on display. You'd be surprised at how incompetent and irresponsible govt can be.
- chickenfries 10y ago
  I think they meant that they could use public payroll records to get the names of city officials.
- freehunter 10y ago
  Anyone who has a California State and Federal Employees Credit Union debit card is probably a good indicator. I saw an Illinois State Police Federal Credit Union branch recently and really thought to myself... that might be giving away a little more information than I'd be comfortable with if I were a cop. I mean, anyone going to that credit union is pretty likely to be, you know, a police officer. So if a criminal was trying to track down a police officer they had beef with, where would they look? Seems pretty obvious. Seems pretty dangerous.
  - corin_ 10y ago
    Police buildings (stations, offices, etc.) where they work every day would probably be more useful than a bank.
gankedfrank 10y ago
I do as well. Uber is a fantastic company and really exemplary in terms of innovation. This is no exception.
- pharrington 10y ago
  Are you saying innovation denotes positive social change?
  - gankedfrank 10y ago
    I don't care about social change. Fortunes are not made and lost on the backs of people's feelings.
frogpelt 10y ago
I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.
- Trombone12 10y ago
  I think developing infrastructure with the express goal of evading law enforcement* _is_ very shady, and then proof that they did just that is indeed proof that Uber is shady. I agree that there are other reasons beyond their dedicated law-avoidance infrastructure to consider Uber a shady company, but this leak alone is certainly enough _proof_ to label them as shady. * even if it is simply by adapting pre existing infrastructure created for a benign purpose
- joe_the_user 10y ago
  Evading the government ability to regulator you through deception is illegal - generally more illegal than whatever it is you're covering up. Government have to work that way. If lying to and evading regulation wasn't illegal, no regulation at all would be possible.
  - vonklaus 10y ago
    I think it's pretty noble, let's not forget that while people seem to detest Uber, the gov't has a much more terrible track record
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected. Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.
  - 10y ago
jfoutz 10y ago
I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want to tell people because i'm building cool stuff, but i can't, at least not until the product is ready. In the latter case, i'd be at least embarrassed, if not ashamed of the tools. But I agree, it's slick. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback when it's not my career at stake. With millions or billions of dollars on the line, my ethics might erode much faster than i want to admit. In that case, I'd hope evil jfoutz (or ethically devoid jfoutz) would build such a sophisticated tool.
- austenallred 10y ago
  I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be
  - avn2109 10y ago
    I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      Exactly, if -for example- a police officer tries to pull me over for a traffic infraction, my speeding off and attempts to make it more difficult to ticket me is only a natural and decent personal impulse!
mindcrime 10y ago
Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. Likewise.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
elmar 10y ago
"Back to the Future" posited flying cars for 2015, Uber had Ghost Cars.

by us0r 10y ago

creaghpatr 10y ago

Wouldn't be surprised if this concept spurs its own line of copycat startups i.e. "Uber Greyball for X"

rootsudo 10y ago

Correct, First siz digits are the BIN. This is how you identify a CC and how carders can guess your limits. e.g. some cards are only allowed to customers with certain credit card profiles.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> [credit card BIN numbers] plus public payroll records Do California public records really make available where specific public employees bank?

gankedfrank 10y ago
My aunt's boyfriend works for California govt and his home address is on display. You'd be surprised at how incompetent and irresponsible govt can be.
chickenfries 10y ago
I think they meant that they could use public payroll records to get the names of city officials.
freehunter 10y ago
Anyone who has a California State and Federal Employees Credit Union debit card is probably a good indicator. I saw an Illinois State Police Federal Credit Union branch recently and really thought to myself... that might be giving away a little more information than I'd be comfortable with if I were a cop. I mean, anyone going to that credit union is pretty likely to be, you know, a police officer. So if a criminal was trying to track down a police officer they had beef with, where would they look? Seems pretty obvious. Seems pretty dangerous.
- corin_ 10y ago
  Police buildings (stations, offices, etc.) where they work every day would probably be more useful than a bank.

gankedfrank 10y ago

I do as well. Uber is a fantastic company and really exemplary in terms of innovation. This is no exception.

pharrington 10y ago
Are you saying innovation denotes positive social change?
- gankedfrank 10y ago
  I don't care about social change. Fortunes are not made and lost on the backs of people's feelings.

frogpelt 10y ago

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

Trombone12 10y ago
I think developing infrastructure with the express goal of evading law enforcement* _is_ very shady, and then proof that they did just that is indeed proof that Uber is shady. I agree that there are other reasons beyond their dedicated law-avoidance infrastructure to consider Uber a shady company, but this leak alone is certainly enough _proof_ to label them as shady. * even if it is simply by adapting pre existing infrastructure created for a benign purpose
joe_the_user 10y ago
Evading the government ability to regulator you through deception is illegal - generally more illegal than whatever it is you're covering up. Government have to work that way. If lying to and evading regulation wasn't illegal, no regulation at all would be possible.
- vonklaus 10y ago
  I think it's pretty noble, let's not forget that while people seem to detest Uber, the gov't has a much more terrible track record
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected. Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.
- 10y ago

jfoutz 10y ago

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want to tell people because i'm building cool stuff, but i can't, at least not until the product is ready. In the latter case, i'd be at least embarrassed, if not ashamed of the tools. But I agree, it's slick. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback when it's not my career at stake. With millions or billions of dollars on the line, my ethics might erode much faster than i want to admit. In that case, I'd hope evil jfoutz (or ethically devoid jfoutz) would build such a sophisticated tool.

austenallred 10y ago
I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be
- avn2109 10y ago
  I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    Exactly, if -for example- a police officer tries to pull me over for a traffic infraction, my speeding off and attempts to make it more difficult to ticket me is only a natural and decent personal impulse!

mindcrime 10y ago

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. Likewise.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

elmar 10y ago

"Back to the Future" posited flying cars for 2015, Uber had Ghost Cars.