13 ms·

Sexism at Uber from Female Management

• tomp 10y ago
  So... Tina's an asshole/jerk/bitch, but where's the sexism?! (I'm not disputing sexism in Susan Fowler's case.)
  • MBCook 10y ago
    The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.
    • stagbeetle 10y ago
      We can't make that judgement without more info.
    • caminante 10y ago
      I'm struggling to understand how that's sexism. Can you explain your criteria for sexism? (I'm asking in good faith.)
      • MBCook 10y ago
        It was a comment based on her appearance (and assumedly how 'sexy' she was dressing). That's the reason. If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. On the scale of sexism this isn't as bad as the other things reported about Uber (she wasn't propositioned for example), but I believe you could argue it as sexism (IANAL, you'd need to one tell you for sure).
        • caminante 10y ago
          Thanks for sharing your perspective. Your comment has broadened my perception of sexism beyond "Can this person win in court?" > If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. Yet, this isn't what happened! ;-) According to the author's own words. Manager in a 1:1 a) asked if the author noticed the lack of eye contact with the other manager b) tentatively asked if the author thought it was because of the tank top and c) suggested the author wears long sleeves. The author's convinced the tank top isn't an issue because she gets ice cream with the subordinates. To me, the author's drawing wild conclusions. Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe.
          • catshirt 10y ago
            > Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. then they either have an unclear dress code which they enforce in an unprofessional and inconsistent manner, or two sexist managers. > I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe. dress in whatever makes you most comfortable (and abides by your company's dress code). if someone has something to say, they're kind of a dick. if someone has something to say they wouldn't say to the other gender, they're a sexist kind of a dick.
      • neutronicus 10y ago
        "Tina" is preying on the author's nascent anxieties about how her male co-workers perceive her body, clothing choices, etc. It's a form of harassment that's pretty obviously tailored to the author's gender (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). The modern use of the word "sexism" includes gender-tailored harassment. It's a broader term nowadays than just "holding a belief that women are worse at X".
        • caminante 10y ago
          I also don't think sexism is limited to gender1 < gender2. That said, I think you're argument's too broad. If you want to call it harrassment, call it harrassment, but I don't get sexism. > (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). How many guys wear tank tops at work? Some do. In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? I think that's what you're saying. If so, that's a slippery slope as it would lead to ALL dress codes being discriminatory.
          • catshirt 10y ago
            > In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? no... the exact opposite. it's sexist because, presumably, the manager would not try to reprimand and/or embarrass a male for a tank top. to neutronicus' broader point though, i can't imagine anyone ever making these remarks to a male at all. because there are double standards when it comes to dress and skin. not trying to get political... like, there's no social expectation for men to hide their breasts at the beach. "gender-tailored" is apt. it wouldn't even cross someones mind to say this stuff to a guy.
      • randycupertino 10y ago
        I'm curious about this, too. If a guy wore a tanktop like this http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/2014-New-summer-Men-Modal-sexy-racerback-tank-top-male-regata-masculina-undershirt-loose-t-shirt.jpg http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/201.... It would be equally non-work appropriate. The office should have just implemented a dress code for everyone.
      • stale2002 10y ago
        I, as a man, have literally never had my boss give me feedback on the clothes that I am wearing. That has never happened.
    • adrr 10y ago
      It would be sexism if it was directed only at women which is not specified in the blog post. If you're meeting with another manager for a transfer, its probably a good idea not to wear a tank top both sexes included.
      • MBCook 10y ago
        > It would be sexism if it was directed only at women [...] So if a manager has a department composed of 100% of one gender they can't make sexist comments about their employees' clothes because there isn't someone of the opposite gender to see if it's 'sexist'? It sounds a lot like things I've heard used as examples of sexism in lawsuits against companies before, so I'm willing to believe that it is sexist (sounds like it fits in my mind) and I believe it's what the writer was referring to in the title (whether others think it is sexism).
  • SolarNet 10y ago
    The manager wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts, so that's the most obvious one. It was also obviously the last straw. Often in stories like these the last straw seems pretty stupid compared to a larger problem. People have a breaking point but it's often a small thing that puts them over it, the straw that broke the camels back. Although the story doesn't spell out the gender of everyone on the team - the statistics of 11 engineers implies she could be the only female - only controlling her work behavior (where and when she can work), but not her coworkers (that they can work from home), if all her coworkers are male, is pretty sexist. And it may be indicative a deeper - and more pervasive - problem of sexism (for example, she was regularly managed differently because she was female, which sounds like the case) that was the main problem for her.
    • caminante 10y ago
      I'm not following at all. Where does it say the manager "wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts?" Even if so, how's that sexist? To say that something's sexist because a man gets different advice than a woman with no context is unacceptable criteria for sexism. Re: WFH, she's a junior employee (graduated in 2015) whose boss told her to "be at [her] desk to 'ensure that [she's] collaborating with the team and getting the support [she] need[s]." She's complaining about getting reprimanded for "working from home for one hour in the morning." That sounds like she was expected to be in the office and didn't clear ahead with her manager. Why was she WFH for just one hour? How's the reprimand sexism? Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism.
      • user5994461 10y ago
        > Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism. Agree. It's "just" a common case of "bad" management.
        • SolarNet 10y ago
          I think there is a deeper problem here with HR. Uber didn't care enough to figure out whether it was sexist or not (or even care enough to do anything about it at all). That means Uber is sexist simply by not caring enough to check (regardless of whether this was or wasn't sexism). * As always a lot of caveats apply: If sexism is defined as legally culpable discrimination of a protected class (rather than looser social definitions, or even broader sociology definitions). If we take her statements at face value.
• oculusthrift 10y ago
  It really is insane to think this type of stuff could go on for so long at such a prominent company. It's amazing that it didn't come out sooner.
  • MBCook 10y ago
    Money hides all sorts of problems. Nothing would have ever happened to Madoff if the economy didn't tank and thus break his pyramid scheme. A company can be incredibly dysfunctional and if they're in a lucrative enough market they can still be 'successful'.
• pascalxus 10y ago
  Is Uber the next Amazon?
  • JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
    Enron?
  • RickS 10y ago
    Amazon has some notoriously harsh environments, but my understanding is they're harsh due to (perhaps unreasonable) work rigor, rather than issues with sexual harassment by management, yes?
  • madenine 10y ago
    In the sense that there's a big, public, blowup about their culture? I think we're there.
• omouse 10y ago
  Surprise surprise, managers behave badly and it doesn't matter what their background is. Usually engineers have to go through rigorous interviews; maybe it's time that was stepped up for managers with better behavioural questions.
  • whatever_dude 10y ago
    Unfortunately managers also tend to be a product of their environment. I've seen female managers/leads take extremely male-centric sexist positions on issues just because it's the way they've learned. In other words, they had become "one of the boys" and were expecting other women under them to do the same. I've come to assume it's especially true of Women on their 40s or so who have been in the tech industry for a while; a generational problem if you will.
    • endymi0n 10y ago
      This. If you look how Uber HR "handled" all these problems by completely ignoring them, it's a large part of the problem.
      • apercu 10y ago
        HR only exists to keep the company free from liability.
        • lafar6502 10y ago
          so this time they failed - is throwing mud on the Internet the only way of settling this? Or just most convenient and with best chance of payout? Something smells fishy here - many many people see the big pile of money at Uber and get some ideas
          • arcticbull 10y ago
            What money? They've got a -140% profit margin. Any money is already pre-committed to be paid out to the people using the system.
• redsummer 10y ago
  Some people seem obsessed with tank tops.
• puppetmaster5 10y ago
  Was the Susan Fowler's 'sex abuser' white?
  • sargun 10y ago
    Yes.
    • jokipokito 10y ago
      .
      • purple-again 10y ago
        There IS something inherent about culture that leads to a greater incident rate of sexual harrasment. Most likely these are not racial Indians born and raised in US culture, who I would expect to have a sexual misconduct % no different from their white or black peers, but immigrants from India where there are higher incidents of sexual misconduct then Western nations at the moment.
      • stevienyx 10y ago
        what are you implying?
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    • sargun 10y ago
      Parent edited their post. It was "was the abuser white?"
  • purple-again 10y ago
    Does it matter? There is nothing inherent about race or skin tone that leads to abusive behavior.
• gens 10y ago
  Seems to me that your manager is more an asshole and/or idiot then sexist.
• hellcow 10y ago
  Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see anything that the manager is doing wrong. We can debate whether the manager is effective at her job, but it seems clear to me this is not an example of sexism. The only citation I can find relevant to the claim of sexism is that she was asked not to wear a tank-top to work. It may very well be that a tank-top is inappropriate attire at Uber's workplace. At IBM and many other companies, it certainly would be inappropriate, and it doesn't sound out of place at all for a manager to ask an employee to wear more professional clothing. The employee writing this is openly hostile to HR about her manager and for reasons I can't understand. "All of the insolence and harassment I face has damaged my views of Uber and made it really difficult to continue working here." Because she was asked to work at her desk and not wear a tank-top?
  • RickS 10y ago
    >it seems clear to me this is not an example of sexism. >she was asked not to wear a tank-top to work She was not "asked not to wear a tank top to work". Her manager directly linked her (sane) clothing choices to the implication of promiscuity and its impact on her career, with an anecdote about one of her previous coworkers social habits and underwear. That's inexcusable. The employee's email is not "openly hostile to HR". She is descriptive of a hostile situation, and upfront about its impact. There's perhaps some subjectivity here, but I don't think it's nearly the same thing. Your comment seems to do some gymnastics to trivialize a story full of conduct that, if true, is unambiguously improper.
    • tomp 10y ago
      "Don't wear revealing/sexy clothing" seems to be a common requirement at many jobs, and not sexist at all - though clearly it would be tailored specifically to the (inappropriate) clothes an individual is wearing.
      • cholantesh 10y ago
        I work in the financial sector. In the summer months especially, it is common to see women dressed in sleeveless tops. I would argue that sexualizing one's peers is much more unprofessional than dressing for comfort.
• thehardsphere 10y ago
  Is this what happens when a company gets too large too fast? I've only worked at small companies that would not be able to afford the waste generated by a manager like this Tina character. (Who has time for 6 hours of meetings?) I mean, I can imagine that characters like Tina existing in the world, hiring them, promoting them to management, and then learning that they have problems like this. It's hard to screen for these sorts of personalities a priori, and it can be difficult to fire them quickly also once that problems start manifesting. That could happen anywhere. What's particularly odd about these stories coming out from Uber is that there are so many of them in a single company. I'm not sure culture itself explains it. Even if you assume that "Uber has an evil culture", you would think that they would still be incentivized to keep turnover caused by bad management down.
  • karlkatzke 10y ago
    > What's particularly odd about these stories coming out from Uber is that there are so many of them in a single company. No, it's not. When toxic ideas are given a place at a company, only people who are toxic will embrace the toxic ideas enough to survive as managers. The non-toxic people either knuckle under, but don't fully "live the values" of the company, which shows. Or, they leave or are "managed out" of the organization. Toxic management seems to happen when a company's management lives in an echo chamber made up of only themselves, and more than one member of that group has a personality disorder. I had a similar experience with, sadly, a company with whom Y-Combinator leaders are still involved. The words "If you don't want to work in the way we want to work, you should just leave right this minute in good grace or you'll lose the fight and you'll be unemployable" (said in a meeting, by a C-level leader, in answer to an innocuous and helpful question) still echo in my mind.
    • TallGuyShort 10y ago
      Plus, problems like this are known by many but talked about by few. One person goes public, and that triggers years of similar experiences that have been built up suddenly flooding out.
  • kafkaesq 10y ago
• brilliantcode 10y ago
  Usually toxic work environments are a symptom of an underlying issue-they resemble the people who created it. Even if they are nice, grossly overlooking toxic individuals might be part of a results over process type of mentality. Another possibility is Uber is fucked and people are kicking the can down the road based on chauvinism. Reading her nightmare reminds me of this quote from The Sopranos. "Money flows uphill, shit flows downhill." - Tony Soprano We all know how DiMeo crime fmaily met it's fate. While great at navigating diplomacy and making a thriving organization, Tony's downfall was not realizing eventually the shit no longer has any room to flow downwards and the leader finds themselves neck deep in it before it's too late.
  • RickS 10y ago
    During my exit from a previous employer over a CEO whose sexual misconduct makes Uber look like the ACLU, one of our investors gave me the advice that "the CEO sets the culture". The context there was that if the CEO and I didn't see eye to eye on something, that was never going to change while this person was CEO. In the time since, I've found that advice to be so reliably true that it's one of the core things I use when deciding employers. A kind, pragmatic, ego-free CEO is mandatory for a culture that values the same. Likewise, the personality flaws in a CEO will propagate downward through the staff because everyone looks up to the CEO to signal what does and doesn't fly. Anecdotally, I expect that Uber will not change while Travis is employed there, and as long as he makes more money than the lawsuits cost, (most of) his investors will find that perfectly agreeable.
    • brilliantcode 10y ago
      Literally, the age old wisdom holds true: "The fish rots from the head down".
      • ryandrake 10y ago
        Or "The culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behavior the leader is willing to tolerate.”
    • 10y ago
• Arizhel 10y ago
  >During that same meeting, we gave “anonymous feedback” on Post-it notes. She read off each Post-it and addressed each person that wrote the “anonymous feedback” if she knew who it was. She has done this multiple times, and each time it makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. The “anonymous” part of the feedback must be lost on her. This sorta happened to me once in high school, in 10th grade English class. Our teacher (a highly religious female), near the end of the school year, had us write down our comments and criticisms anonymously. One big complaint a bunch of people had was how she talked a lot about her religion and church experiences in class. Being a public school, even though it was close to the Bible Belt, it was inappropriate and a lot of students were uncomfortable with this, and apparently commented about it (I was one of them). So she addressed this in the next class, defending herself and also commenting that she knew who many of the commenters were by their handwriting. So much for anonymity. I believe some people complained to the administration, because she wasn't there the next year. It's really strange how people in a position of power will solicit "anonymous" feedback, and then when they don't like the criticism will figure out how to identify the complainers and use that against them. Anyway, the problem I have with this "sexism" claim here is that this anecdote doesn't seem to paint Uber itself in a bad light at all, and doesn't even have any complaints about bad behavior by any men (did I miss something?). It just complains about a single female boss. She sounds like a horrible boss, to be sure, but a crappy female boss telling you to not wear a tank top isn't really what I think of when I hear about a company that has a "culture of sexism". All the complaints this woman has are about this one boss, that's it, and also probably HR's refusal to do anything about it. Honestly, this doesn't surprise me at all about the boss, and I don't think it's indicative of a major "sexism" problem within Uber, just another data point showing how crappy their management and especially HR are, but that's not a problem unique to Uber at all. Personally, I'll bet that the female boss isn't as pretty as this woman, or somehow views her as a threat. I've heard tons of stories about women in the workplace attacking other women, and many of these I heard from my now ex-wife (who I'm on good terms with). She has a bunch of stories about being singled out for abuse not from men, but other women, probably because she was prettier than them and didn't play their stupid social games. She had coworkers literally verbally attack her (screaming at her even), and even though she didn't do anything to instigate this or escalate or even respond, she'd get called into HR and treated as though she had started the problem somehow. (Other coworkers would then testify in her defense that the other woman was nuts, and then HR would then just tell her to "try to get along" and that "Julie is a little touchy" or some BS like that, instead of actually dealing with the toxic employee.) Strangely, she has no stories of abuse from men in the civilian workplace, but she was in the Air Force for a little while and had a few problems there, including an attempted rape (by someone she thought was a friend) wherein she stabbed the guy in the abdomen with her keys, but overall got along just fine with both men and women and got a bunch of commendations. But when she moved to the civilian world, she had no end of trouble with female coworkers and useless women in HR.
• burrows 10y ago
  >> I know this is completely untrue because I wear this tank top almost every day and am close with him and members of his team (we eat lunch together and even go on the occasional run for ice cream). You wear the same shirt everyday?
  • misingnoglic 10y ago
    Is this what you got from the article??
    • stagbeetle 10y ago
      Different viewpoints are always encouraged, lest the conversation becomes a resonance chamber.
• thewhitetulip 10y ago
  While reading the account, it seems the Manager is from India perhaps? Edit: I am an Indian and it is a big deal in India to wear "revealing clothes", albeit I have no idea what a tank top is neither do I care Just FYI do you don't assume that I am a sexist and downvote me.
  • juandazapata 10y ago
    Which racist thought made you reach that conclusion?
    • thewhitetulip 10y ago
      I am an Indian and I hear these things daily, "you are wearing a top which discloses too much of your body" blah blah bullshit even in the 2017. Note: I don't understand HN's algorithm, apparently, I can downvote every comment except yours :D
      • vertex-four 10y ago
        Unfortunately, it's still not unheard of in many countries. Usually the people thinking it keep it to themselves and try to avoid conflict in the workplace, mind. And most people don't think it at all - it's only when you have toxic workplace culture that this sort of thing happens.
      • morganvachon 10y ago
        > Note: I don't understand HN's algorithm, apparently, I can downvote every comment except yours :D You can't downvote a reply to your own comment. This encourages discussion; instead of downvoting, post a rebuttal.
      • vthallam 10y ago
        I am an Indian too, the only place i think Indians hear that is at HOME. Never I have heard a Indian manager suggest people on how to dress in US.
• siculars 10y ago
  Why aren't managers graded on retention? If you lose too many people you're penalized or fired.
  • JustSomeNobody 10y ago
    Why aren't managers graded?
  • hluska 10y ago
    Or, grade managers on how far their direct reports advance in the company??
  • techthroway443 10y ago
    Perhaps because it's a poor indicator of performance. There's a lot more factors at play when people quit than just "i hate my boss"
    • rco8786 10y ago
      That's a pretty huge factor though. It's definitely something that should be taken into account.
    • throwaway729 10y ago
      That's what exit interviews and a healthy culture are for.
  • el_benhameen 10y ago
    In the Susan Fowler case, at least, her manager changed a good review to a poor one to avoid losing her to another team. So I'm not sure that a blanket "if you lose too many people" policy is necessarily a good thing.
  • lvspiff 10y ago
    Because retention can be too subjective. If you lose a lot of bad people then retention is not a bad thing. If you start to lose good people then what was the common reason? Not willing to pay? Company culture? Team culture? Company I work for retention can be factored in but the ability to rate your boss is given each year and if that comes back negative along with poor retention than that is reason for further action.
• cromulent 10y ago
  All this reminds me of the Australian Army's response to this kind of thing. "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." Not sure if it worked but it was a compelling talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U
• imaginenore 10y ago
  None of what she described is sexism. Even the tank top thing, maybe barely. Her manager made a good point - maybe her career isn't progressing as fast, because she dresses very casually, and people don't take her as seriously. I don't think I've ever seen a girl in tech wear a tank top (not that I would mind, just pointing it out).
  • adrienne 10y ago
    You probably have never seen a girl working in tech, period, given employment law. The women working in tech are generally over 18.
  • zepto 10y ago
    Yeah - males have to wear a coat and tie in order to be taken seriously in tech companies - why should it be different with women? Oh wait...
    • imaginenore 10y ago
      Are you saying it's not true for the males? In most big corporations you're required to ear a shirt and formal pants. Some require ties.
      • zepto 10y ago
        I don't know if it's true at Uber, but uber is not a typical big corporations and it's often not true at startups. My point is that it can certainly be sexism depending on the company in question.
• qaq 10y ago
  This particular situation would be tough at any company as they would be reluctant to let "Tina" go as it would scew their numbers even worse given the ratio of female/male eng. in management roles. Also a person with that type of attitude is very likely to retaliate against the company.
• armandososa 10y ago
  How do you know (asking seriously, since I work alone 99% of the time) when somebody is sexist (or any other ist) or if he/she is just a generally unpleasant person? Also, I got to say that if I'm in the same room with a woman who has a very visible cleavage I will look into the ceiling to avoid even the vague notion that I'm looking into their breasts.
  • stagbeetle 10y ago
    > How do you know (asking seriously, since I work alone 99% of the time) when somebody is sexist (or any other ist) or if he/she is just a generally unpleasant person? Neither is mutually exclusive or objective. Someone can be sexist and be a pleasant person and someone can be an unpleasant person, but not sexist. Similarly, someone can be unpleasant and racist to one person, but be pleasant and not racist to another. There's not solid way to determine these things. If you're not in a position where you're being scrupulously watched over for signs of being an ist, then just try to be a good person instead of being not a sexist, or not a racist. > Also, I got to say that if I'm in the same room with a woman who has a very visible cleavage I will look into the ceiling to avoid even the vague notion that I'm looking into their breasts. That sounds more like social anxiety/ conditioning.
  • Neliquat 10y ago
    I find looking in the eyes to work better. Cmon man, this is not high school.
  • neutronicus 10y ago
    Sometimes, it's not too important to use the right synonym for "asshole". If, for whatever reason, you think that an equal-opportunity asshole is imprecisely labeled a sexist, well ... is that worth arguing over?
• SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
  So she is working at infosec for uber and wears defcon tank tops.... skiddie spotted.
• jedberg 10y ago
  Protip for all the younger workers out there: HR is not there to protect you or help you. They are there to protect the company. Sometimes protecting the company happens to mean helping you, and sometimes the HR people are good people who look for solutions that makes everyone happy. But don't count on it.
  • mi100hael 10y ago
    That's not wrong, but it seems like in these recent cases, HR has done a terrible job protecting Uber from liability and lawsuits.
    • vkou 10y ago
      It has, however, done a great job of protecting its managers (At the expense of the company.) That's what happens when you let the clowns run the asylum.
      • gotofritz 10y ago
        Hey, those clowns built that asylum!
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
  • deleted 10y ago
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• crazy1van 10y ago
  Regarding the tank top comments, this is why companies have company policies regarding things like dress code. It's different to have a policy that applies to everyone (eg, no sleeveless tops) vs selectively admonishing one person's clothes.
• dustinmoris 10y ago
  If I'd be an engineer or manager at Uber now I'd quit before this whole thing blows up in their face. If you leave now then you can credibly distant yourself from this shit show, but afterwards it will be much more difficult. If you've got Uber on your CV I would not hire you, no matter how talented you are. No talent is worth the risk of poisoning the team and potentially driving out my other talents.
  • xbeta 10y ago
    > If you've got Uber on your CV I would not hire you, no matter how talented you are. No talent is worth the risk of poisoning the team and potentially driving out my other talents. Or perhaps 90% of the Uber folks just simply force to stay because they are bound by immigration, etc. I don't think "will never hire X from Y because of poisoning Z" will always stand. I have heard that from many individual said similar comments such as "will not hire from Amazon, will not hire from FB, will not hire from MSFT", but as the company grows, you don't even got that choice. Because recruiters will find them and will get them in. Can you say that to every hire you made in a company with the size of 10000+ ?
• safeandsound 10y ago
  The anonymous thing is really messed up. The manager sounds super unprofessional and shouldn't be a manager.
• nanodano 10y ago
  All of those things she lists are not really sexism. The only one that even comes close is the lady telling her not to wear a tank top. Honestly, I agree too. I think tank tops are not appropriate office attire. This girl just needs to grow up and learn that her appearance does matter. I feel like her manager was actually giving her some good life advice and being real with her.
  • rebelidealist 10y ago
    Forcing her to work only on her desk is pretty oppressive.
  • stephancoral 10y ago
    > I think tank tops are not appropriate office attire. If she's not customer facing, who gives a shit? Some of the worst, toxic behavior in companies is committed by men in suits
  • watwut 10y ago
    Comes from culture which celebrates dudes who refused ties and oftentimes is proud of not trusting people in business wear (e.g. tie). I mean it seriously, if everyone wears business, then it is what it is. If you wear flip flops and metal t-shit, thensuring female street wear should be fine too. Besides that, tech culture seems to be all proud about rejecting attire formalities and about business being stupid for insisting on them.
• user5994461 10y ago
  > In my time there, I saw malicious fights for power, interns repeatedly putting in over 100 hours a week but only getting paid for 40 Let's repeat one more time, don't do 100 hours week, you'll never get paid for it.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    Agreed. Unless you have significant ownership stakes in the company, killing yourself with overtime is never rewarded. It just becomes the normal, and when you finally do cut back, everyone seems disappointed.
  • ndirish1842 10y ago
    While I don't doubt the rest of the article, I will say as a former Uber intern (this past summer) the vast majority of us were not overworked. I (and most of my fellow Uber interns) worked between 40-50 hours a week, and we were paid hourly (with overtime being paid at 1.5x base pay).
    • user5994461 10y ago
      50 hours => 10 hours of overtime Or 15 if you're in one of the lazy European countries, like France.
• edblarney 10y ago
  These are possibly fair gripes, but they're not at all uncommon in the rest of the world, even outside of tech. 'My manager doesn't respect me'. Well ... my bet is that 20% of the entire world feels this way. 'Banned from other offices'? Most companies have many offices and they usually expect people to work primarily from their own workspace. I worked in a fortune 50 with many offices and I was not allowed to work remotely or from some other building, unless meetings etc. That said, maybe the rule is applied unfairly? But it's conceivably entirely within the managers authority to do that. As for the 'tank top' ... that one's tricky. But no female in my F50 work experience ever wore a tank top. There was no dress code, they just didn't do it. There are many places wherein it definitely would not be allowed. That's a tricky one ... I think it would have mostly to do with what was 'the norm' a the company, and what role is being played, in what context. But yeah, it's tricky.
• socrates1998 10y ago
  Why do talented, or at least competent, software engineers stick around when they are treated like this? I left jobs for a lot less than what this person went through. I hope she gets a better job soon and I am glad all these stories are coming out now.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    After a while, it beats you down, and you feel so bad that you can't leave. You kinda feel you aren't deserving of working in a respectful environment. This is aside from other things like not feeling like you can get another job, or having bills/bonuses that you'd have to repay, etc.
    • MBCook 10y ago
      It can also feel normal. Based on what you've been exposed to you might not realize how bad it is or that you're not supposed to behave that way. Young people who started careers at Uber may not even realize how odd this is compared to a normal or 'good' company.
• m3rc 10y ago
  Uh, you can still be sexist and also be a jerk... are you asking if people can only be one? And FFS, just look at women in their goddamn eyes, like a normal person. Not being sexist is like the easiest thing in the world, just don't be weird.
  • tetromino_ 10y ago
    > just look at women in their goddamn eyes, like a normal person s/normal person/socially well-adjusted American/ A big fraction of the world's population is strongly conditioned against looking in someone's eyes outside e.g. intimate or family settings.
    • armandososa 10y ago
      In my culture, a deep stare in the eyes means defiance.
  • armandososa 10y ago
    Do you honestly think that's what I'm asking or just want to be confrontational? (I re-read my question and I don't believe that's what I'm saying, but I'm not a native english speaker). To clear my question: If I'm being really mean to you how can you confidently say that it is because I have bias against your gender or your race and not because a) I'm mean to everybody or b) I don't like you in particular (which is the case so far). Same case: If somebody hates my guts is it because a Mexican dude or is it because I'm like, insufferable? I guess that if he says "Go back to Mexico, you beaner" the answer is clear, but if you instead downvote everything I post… how could I tell if it's either or both?
    • itsdrewmiller 10y ago
      The general gist of the responses is it doesn't matter that much - if someone is being terrible, outside of a specific legal context that should be enough to determine how you react to their behavior. If you are asking about that specific legal context, it would be good to clarify that. In either case though it will probably sound like you are trying to discount the complaints of the author.
• l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
  It's a shame that this happens regardless of your gender. I've been in similar situations & was able to detect that it was going to get worse. But, I stood up to the bullies even risking my employment. This is what everybody should do. Stand up and tell that person you won't accept being treated poorly. Stop cowering in fear.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• Marconium 10y ago
  Let's face it, some clothes that women wear are distracting for men, including a tank top. It is an animal instinct to look at beautiful women and be attracted to them. It is like putting a chocolate infront of you and saying you cannot eat it. Of course, you will resist but it will make focusing harder for you.
  • raarts 10y ago
    A tank top doesn't make a woman beautiful. It makes some women more attractive yes. If you are too distracted by it, it's you who are to blame for lack of self control. Find ways around that, it's called character building you'll find it useful in life in general.
    • Marconium 10y ago
      Well, good for you if you are perfect and there is nothing that distracts you but willpower is a limited resource and self-control consumes that resource. Try it yourself and put something that attracts you in front of you and start working. It will lower your productivity.
      • js8 10y ago
        > Try it yourself and put something that attracts you in front of you and start working. Easy solution. Turn 180 degrees. Ask the coworker you are now facing to change the desk with you. Problem solved.
      • raarts 10y ago
        Self control can be practiced. Do not blame her for waring a tank top. It's better to try to grow as a person and not remove everything that challenges your personality from your surroundings. Also she has freedom too. A tank top is not out of the ordinary.
        • Marconium 10y ago
          If I stop wash and I will smell bad. Should I ask my colleagues to develop self-control and just ignore my smell? If something is distracting for people around you, it is very selfish to ask them to change. By distracting things I mean things that are rooted in our biology. Not things that are opinion based.
• emanrocks89 10y ago
  Definitely not defending Uber here - but does anyone else notice that the people who are complaining are usually the people who don't come from traditional computer science backgrounds? Susan has a Physics degree, and this individual has a psychology degree with a bootcamp past. My experience with bootcamps graduates aren't that great, so maybe there's a chance the managers aren't happy with their performance, hence the behavior.
  • xiaq 10y ago
    But the recruitment bar for everyone is roughly the same, no? If non-CS graduates generally are worse (which might be true), only the best of them get hired. This only makes sense if interviewers prefer non-CS graduates.
    • emanrocks89 10y ago
      Yes, the hiring bar is the same. But as many of us know, the coding interview can be passed with practice so bad engineers are practically indistinguishable from good engineers with extensive amount of practice. The real issues come from when these bootcamp grads are in the workforce when the problems aren't so black and white.
• OJFord 10y ago
  That's an appalling email. Even if the author has been wronged, I wouldn't expect any good to come out of something like that...