19 ms·

Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

412 points by M_Grey 10y ago

meowface 10y ago
In many cases, though, cannabis and CBD oil aren't nearly as effective as opioids for relief from severe pain, right? How often is this a viable alternative for patients? This study only looked at 250 people who already have medical cannabis prescriptions for pain, so this shouldn't be extrapolated too heavily.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  It may not be as simple as all or nothing you know. It could be adjunct therapy for people who would normally reach for another pill. Truthfully though, I also wonder which pain cannabis is most effective for, compared to opiates. The truth seems to be that opiates are broadly ineffective at the relief of severe pain in many people too, but they're also toxic. It may be that this is better if only because of the lack of toxicity.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Opioids reduce, but don't block extreme pain so much as make you not care about it. They work really well for short term, less extreme pain, but they become less effective over time and they side effects are nasty. So my guess is people with long term pain are probably better off with canibis long term even if Opiods work really well for post operation pain for example.
    - amalag 10y ago
      Would be great if opiods never left the hospital.
      - adanto6840 10y ago
        There would probably be a lot of people that legitimately would never be able to leave the hospital -- there really are people out there with legitimate chronic pain. I say this after having had a C6-C7 spine fusion surgery -- prior to that, the pain was incredible. And two or three years ago I couldn't have even imagined what that kind of pain felt like, until I was actually suffering it. Luckily surgery was incredibly effective, and I hated having to take pain pills (made it difficult to work), but the pre-op alternative (living with constant pain) wasn't very great. I certainly didn't want to sit in a hospital just to be able to move around a bit -- and I couldn't have immediate surgery, though I did have surgery as soon as I was allowed to (primarily due to insurance). I'm sure there are people out there with far worse pain, and in many cases likely untreatable causes. Putting all of those people in the hospital certainly isn't going to help with insurance prices, nor is it a particularly humane way to treat people in the general sense.
      - emcq 10y ago
        I was on opiods for a month. At the time it was prohibitive to get out of bed, let alone go to the hospital. I dont remember it much but sleeping on my own bed beats the heck out of the hospital.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        People in long term pain need better access to specialist pain management clinics with the full range of interventions - exercise, alternative prescribing, etc. But even with Opioids Aware prescribing, and even if cannabis is legalised, some people will still need opioids. http://www.fpm.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware http://www.fpm.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware
- antisthenes 10y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503660/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503660/ A few queries resulted in this, which is pretty informative as far as cannabioid treatments go. You're right, the benefits and potency aren't very clear cut, but, unlike opioids, THC-based treatments can produce desirable side benefits, which result in overall better outcomes (if we treat patient satisfaction as a major factor)
- taneq 10y ago
  If even 250 people are taking cannabis (not physically addictive, limited health impact, no tolerance buildup) over opiates (highly addictive, rapid tolerance buildup, very risky) then that's a good thing, right?
  - ehnto 10y ago
    The lack of side effects should be a key part of the decision. Effectiveness of pain relief is in my perhaps inempathetic opinion less important. People can handle some pain, and that is fine. 100% pain relief through opiates vs 50% pain relief through less detrimental means is probably worth it.
    - ryanlol 10y ago
      But surely most opioid pain treatments will have less side effects than pot? Although, I suppose the side effects of pot are considered desirable by many.
      - PeterisP 10y ago
        No, most opioid pain treatments have far more severe side effects than pot, and they tend to have a high risk of serious addiction that limits their dosage.
        ryanlol 10y ago
        >most opioid pain treatments have far more severe side effects than pot What are those? Beyond the physical addiction, which shouldn't be much of an issue with proper dosage.
        PeterisP 10y ago
        First, physical addiction is an issue, since the "proper dosage" to mitigate a particular patient's pain can easily be higher (or more frequent) than the "proper dosage" to avoid addiction; so on one hand some patients have to suffer without being able to increase the dose, and on the other hand the statistics show that even if in theory it "shouldn't be much of an issue", in practice addiction does happen. But for the pure side effects, the most common issues are constipation and nausea. Then there's sedation (which may be comparable to effects of pot), and of course the suppressed breathing which makes accidental overdoses potentially deadly, unlike pot. Especially for chronic pain management, the long term effects add up, then you also risk liver damage, etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18443635 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18443635 is a good place to start if you're interested in details.
- deelowe 10y ago
  Treating chronic pain has less to do with pain relief and more to do with mental health. Sometimes people just want to forget or feel different for a while. Also, opiates suck!
  - sergers 10y ago
    I see it as more of a therapeutic effect that relieves the pain/symptoms till there not noticeable and doesn't limit you Combine this with other therapy methods and you have rid yourself of pain, or at least rid yourself of the holds it has it over you.
  - millstone 10y ago
    Where'd you get this idea? Any citations? Your comment reads condescending to me: "my pain is all in my head." But it's not, and treating my mental heath is treating the symptoms and not the cause. The best thing for my mental health would be an end to my physical pain.
    - lukewink 10y ago
      That's the thing though... with chronic pain there is no end to the physical pain, and this fact alone can be mentally taxing. Sometimes taking your mind off your situation is more effective than painkillers. Chronic pain is a life long mental _and_ physical battle.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      You've said that your mental health is suffering because of the pain you're in. People offering mental health treatment are not saying the pain is "all in your head"[1]. They're saying you deserve treatment for all your problems, not just a focus on one specific pain problem. We've known for sometime that treatment for mental illness is more effective if it looks at more than the patient's mental illness - if it looks at all the biological, psychological, and social factors. This concept is moving into physical health treatment, especially for long term pain. And it seems that mental health treatment can reduce the amount of pain that people feel. [1] I'm not sure if you realise just how dismissive this sounds. Mental illness is debilitating and one of the top ten causes of years lost to disability. Those people aren't "making it up", which is the implication many will draw from your "all in my head" comment.
- conistonwater 10y ago
  I think the authors say that the pain relief itself is only part of it: > Lucas suggests the main reasons for the switch to cannabis from prescribed meds is due to reduced side effects, better symptom management and a feeling that cannabis is safer than prescription drugs. Also, looking at http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/understanding-pain-management-chronic-pain http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/understanding-pai..., it seems like chronic pain doesn't necessarily (?) mean severe pain, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
  - brokenmasonjars 10y ago
    I don't really have any authority to really add anything but I will say my understanding of chronic is long lasting. Doesn't necessarily have to be severe pain, just long lasting. I have some chronic pains from a bad fall a few years ago. Unfortunately PA is moving like a turtle in it's medical marijuana roll out. When I think of cannabis, I view it as safer. You don't hear about overdoes like you do with opioids. Add in a few famous celebrity deaths like Prince you quickly get a public image that views opioids with suspicion. In my opinion rightly so. Hopefully medical marijuana can be more accessible to more people sooner.
- WalterSear 10y ago
  I was diagnosed with chronic pain syndrome, and when given the opportunity, had my doctor switch my prescription from opioids to cannabis. I don't think that one can appreciate how effective it is for chronic pain, until you've had to use it for that.
  - poohbs 10y ago
    similarly, those who have only had opioids for acute pain (injuries, post-op, and such) have a hard time appreciating just how much baggage comes with these drugs when they are taken indefinitely.
    - WalterSear 10y ago
      Yes, the side effects of the opioids were as much of a reason for me to want to switch, if not more so.
    - PastaMonster 10y ago
      Well, they lose effectiveness. The body adjusts to the constant input. Which is what addiction is. What many people don't understand is that addiction isn't drug abuse. We should fight to remove the negativity the word addiction have. Very annoying that the body do this. If you could figure out a drug that prevents this you could make billions! For example and something everyone can try: My body is addicted to coffee. If I don't take it for a few days I'll become very tired, headaches, etc. It's lasts for about two weeks. While addicted I don't abuse it. I've even switched to tea a few times.
  - seattle_spring 10y ago
    Could you recommend what products specifically help you the most? I've had chronic neck and back pain for years. Smoking marijuana actually tends to make it worse, but I haven't experimented with specific strains, ingestion methods, etc.
    - WalterSear 10y ago
      It's important to note that, unlike opioids, cannabis doesn't make the sensation of pain less strong, it makes it less urgent. This means that if you won't necessarily feel a direct effect on the pain, but that its subsequent effects aren't as strong - the pain is not as exhausting, distracting, or debilitating. In fact, the initial 'come-on' of cannabis tends to make me more aware of my pain for a few seconds. Moreover, my pain is neuropathic, rather than physiological in nature, and so what works for me, may not work for other forms of pain. That said, I had the best effect managing pain with high CBD low THC strains - meaning strains with over 7% CBD and one percent or less THC. For me, the pain relief is so profound and quick acting that I can pinpoint the second it starts to have an effect, and it has the added benefit of leaving me sober enough that I can go about my business. Unfortunately, while I found CBD strains most effective for pain, I personally have not been able to tolerate them - they cause me memory problems that I have not found any mention of in the literature, not anyone else who experiences them. So, what do I use, when I need to keep the pain at bay? Usually I reach for a concentrate of a indica-dominant hybrid, or an pure indica. I stay way from Sour Diesels, and the like, as they don't agree with me, but these things tend to be individual in nature. Sorry not to be much more help: all I can really recommend is low THC/high CBD strains, and smoking/vaping concentrates or hashish rather than eating, at least until you find something that works for you.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  > , cannabis and CBD oil aren't nearly as effective as opioids for relief from severe pain, right? Taking opioids for pain relief is a dangerous route as doctors are now more likely to cut your Rx off if they suspect abuse. IF you are addicted and/or still have significant pain, you may have to resort to street drugs with unknown potency and purity. I'd rather go with the medication that won't lead down a life-threatening path. If the treatment is worse then the symptoms, it's not really worth it.
- thescriptkiddie 10y ago
  Opioids are dramatically more effective than cannabis at relieving acute pain. Arguably, so are ibuprofen and acetaminophen. What cannabis is useful for is chronic pain, especially pain of inflammation. The use of opiods to treat chronic pain is problematic for many reasons, addiction being a big one, but there are also significant side effects. Cannabis is much safer to use long term.
- jessep 10y ago
  I wrote my story as a root comment, but I get kidney stones, which are among the most intensely painful things humans experience. I have found getting really high more effective than opioids. I haven't yet used cannabis during the peak pain, because I haven't had kidney stones again since I first tried cannabis instead of opioids, but next time I'm going to.
- sehugg 10y ago
  MS sufferers take it for muscle spasms and neuropathy. Opioids have problems like tolerance and stomach irritation that cannabis does not, and since MS is usually a lifelong affliction this can be bad over the long term.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    I was going to comment something similar. I'll add this, however. Some MS patients also suffer with muscle spasticity - basically a muscle that stays contracted. This can be painful and limit mobility: At best it is uncomfortable. Normal treatment includes things like Valium. In tests with cannabis, patients reported improvements with both mobility and the amount of pain/discomfort. However, when researchers measured the spasticity there was no clinical improvement. Both were true - it seems sometimes all folks need to do is not be so bothered by their daily pains.
chejazi 10y ago
The timing of this is interesting. A few days ago, the White House press sec claimed cannabis is a gateway to opioid use: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/24/sean-spicer-seemed-to-tie-marijuana-use-to-opioids-the-evidence-isnt-on-his-side/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/2...
- verelo 10y ago
  Reminds me of when Stephen Harper claimed Marijuana was worse than tobacco and the rather hilarious reaction by Canadians that followed his statement: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-pot-marijuana-1.3255727 http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-pot-marijuana... From the comments "hey Steve...smoke a blunt or two and mellow out." is the kind of sentiment that I heard a lot of in Toronto.
  - fencepost 10y ago
    From his standpoint pot is much worse than tobacco - pot doesn't have well-funded lobbyists, campaign contributors, etc.
    - pmoriarty 10y ago
      I'm kind of surprised that the alcohol and tobacco industries don't lobby for legalization. They could potentially diversify in to marijuana manufacture and sale, and leverage their brands and experience in selling other recreational drugs. The pharmaceutical industry could similarly profit from manufacturing and selling medical marijuana.
      - zensavona 10y ago
        The problem from the pharma companies point of view is that they have patents on a lot of their drugs, granting exclusivity on production. Marijuana is a plant which anyone can grow (and thus compete with them).
        10y ago
Grexar 10y ago
The original article and this post have a very poor headline. The study covered pain relievers, anti-depressants, and sedatives. The people were not just suffering from pain. Some had mental health issues. Some has gastrointestinal issues. I suspect the reason why cannabis was so popular is because it helps with a lot of conditions instead of just one. Also, cannabis has a much milder effect than prescription drugs and fewer negative side effects. It's not much of a stretch to imagine someone using it in place of a prescription drug when their symptoms are not as strong. A "friend of mine" who suffers in excruciating pain for days from the occasional kidney stone smokes weed and takes ibuprofen rather than go through bottles of prescription pain killers. They have tremendously negative side effects if taken over a long period of time that he would rather not experience on top of the pain. After seeing his sister get addicted to them after having surgery, he doesn't want to risk them destroying his life.
sergers 10y ago
My mom has benefited from cannabis to help treat chrohns. While nothing has cured, it's been the most effective with no known side effects. Plus it's cheaper than the meds she has been buying for years (spending out of pocket upwards $10k a year with $500 a pill just for flare ups even with medicare in Canada). She has been in hell for 30 years. They wanted to remove her small intestine ~20 years ago and she didn't want to make that sacrifice and lived with the pain. Nothing honestly helped long term till I convinced her to try cannabis 3 years ago that so far has been more effective. She is now on low daily dose with no flare-ups in atleast a year. From personal experience as a 15 year recreational user and 10 years actual therapy/medicinal use:For chronic pain and intestinal issues it works wonders, but it's not any immediate relief with severe pain. That may change with higher concentrations and improvements in delivery methods.
- nitemice 10y ago
  According to work done by the Johns Hopkins group, smoking or vaporising can provide pretty quick relief, whereas ingestion is good for chronic pain. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/what-do-we-know-about-the-effects-of-medical-marijuana/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/what-do-we-know-abou...
  - sergers 10y ago
    Yea maybe I haven't had strong enough. I tried to treat a toothache and another time arm injury by vaping CBD oil at 25mg/ml. 5 ml later(tank capacity), it didn't do too much relief. I think if I had strong enough (500mg-1000mg CBD) I think it could potentially provide larger relief. I think my tolerance has been raised due to years of recreational use vs therapeutic/real medicine use
    - jessep 10y ago
      I know people say CBD is good for pain, but in my experience the high is actually part of what helps. I personally like good old OG Kush for pain.
trub 10y ago
I got hit by a car on a bicycle. Instead of taking pain mess, I used edibles and marijuana for 2 weeks. It was just as effective, if not more because I was functional.
beambot 10y ago
Surprising that big pharma is an opponent to a readily-available natural substance outside the purview of patent protections. Quick, better enforce the federal ban. </s>
- aphextron 10y ago
  >Quick, better enforce the federal ban. Fortunately, things have progressed so far at the state level that it would be impossible for the feds to shut it down now.
- PastaMonster 10y ago
  Been asking myself why drugs that make you feel good is banned like cannabis, mushrooms, LSD, etc. Government got anything against people feeling good? Conspiracy?
  - prodmerc 10y ago
    Something about people not getting addicted and ruining their lives. But then you see alcoholics, smokers with cancer, morbidly obese from food, stabbings... basically, follow the money to see why anything is banned, ever.
    - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
      Because opiates are well known to have no addictive properties whatsoever.
  - kbart 10y ago
    Independent thinkers, open-minded people were always enemy of the state. Alcohol hampers your thought process and numbs you, but you can still labor the next day. Cannabis, mushrooms, LSD, on the other hand, broadens one's perspective and leads to more why? questions asked. See where it goes?
millstone 10y ago
Naive questions about this: 1. How many hours does MMJ control pain? 2. Does taking MMJ for chronic pain make you high all the time? 3. In California, most MMJ dispensaries are oriented towards recreational users. How do you go about this from a legitimately medical path, i.e. finding a doctor able and willing to provide sound medical advice, instead of just collecting the fee for a green card?
- sergers 10y ago
  With having alot of first hand and 2nd hand knowledge, I am very surprised by questions like these that show how much of the knowledge about this wonder drug have been suppressed and or generally just not known. 1)varies on so many factors to get into. -Tolerance,strength,variety,form, and how it's taken. What you eat before consumption can affect. 2)no. Lookup THC vs CBD, for pain relief it's more CBD which doesn't make you high at all. Some studies have shown full spectrum/mix of the 2 in concentrates may provide better results. 3)find a naturopath, or just go in and ask the dispensaries. Many dispensary workers are actually very knowledgeable. Not sure about Cali, but alot of dispensaries here are very knowledgeable and cater alot to medical use rather than recreational, even though their key market is recreational. Try finding a local compassion club, healing centers etc for support/seminars or information. Recent article on CBD: http://hightimes.com/medicinal/cbd-the-cinderella-molecule/ http://hightimes.com/medicinal/cbd-the-cinderella-molecule/
  - driverdan 10y ago
    I downvoted you for two reasons. Cannabis is not a wonder drug. It treats a few things effectively, like many other drugs. Just because it has been suppressed doesn't mean you should use hyperbole. Second, naturopaths are quacks. They do not have proper medical training and often recommend nonsense like homeopathy. They are the opposite of what the OP was asking for.
    - sergers 10y ago
      maybe from your experience. Cannabis has not been fully explored since its supression by pharma/govt. there are many areas which they are discovering it treats effectively, more than a few already known and more being discovered. i have seen a naturopath who also has a doctorate in science based medicine, and is not some hack pitching homeopathy. not all are quacks and not all dont have medical training , i downvoted you for this reason, doesnt mean you should use a hyperbole.. :) who do you recommend to see? you provided no information relevant to what OP was asking. should they go see a medical doctor who in general (not all) dont believe the effectiveness just due to the stigma of marijuana? or would you recommend a naturopath who may (not all) who has hands on experience advising and dealing with patients who have tried marijuana to help with various ailments.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jessep 10y ago
I get kidney stones pretty often (6 times in the last 8 years). I vomit from the pain, convulse on the floor, lose all sense of self as I just struggle to survive the sensation. It is intense. Usually I have to go to the emergency room for IV opioids. Then they give you some to take home after you pass the peak of the pain. Last time it happened to me, I went home at around 6pm after going into the hospital that morning. At 3am, the pain was again intolerable. I had already taken the maximum dosage of the opioids. I knew taking more was dangerous, and was keenly afraid of getting addicted. But the pain was too much, so I went to get the bottle of pills. As I stood up to go get the pills, it occurred to me that people say weed is good for pain and that I should try it before taking more opioids. I had weed (in cali, have a "medical" card) so I took some out and smoked. I cannot describe to you how much more effective it was than the opioids. The pain wasn't gone, but it was just an interesting sensation now. Genuinely didn't bother me. I did yoga. I read. I enjoyed the night. And I was flabbergasted that no one I touched in the medical establishment had ever recommended it. It feels like a genuinely corrupt world where something so clearly damaging to people and society is recommended before something relatively harmless and widely available. I am still in awe of how effectively it handled my pain.
- andrei_says_ 10y ago
  Know that there are whole lineages of yoga associated with the use of this power plant. I recommend exploring the combination while remaining open to being led (as in moves and timing) by the plant and by the enhanced awareness of what needs attention/release in the body. It may be helpful to commit the mind prior to the session and create a distraction- and thinking- free environment.
- egloo 10y ago
  Have you tried chanca piedra? It's an herb, but has been run through medical trials in Germany with great success. I use it and it seems to have lessened my kidney stone issues.
  - jessep 10y ago
    No, thanks for the rec!
randomdrake 10y ago
For folks looking for more information regarding published studies on the topic, we supply an index of over 800 cannabis studies organized by almost 170 conditions, and summarized with a weighted average by our contributing PhD: https://www.cannabisreports.com/cannabis-studies https://www.cannabisreports.com/cannabis-studies This includes a section for studies on cannabis and opioid addictions.
- criddell 10y ago
  Maybe you can shed some light: there are lots of different kinds of pain, right? Is cannabis most effective for any particular type? Is it probably the wrong choice for any particular type?
  - randomdrake 10y ago
    > there are lots of different kinds of pain, right? Yes, we have 7 or 8 different types of categorical pains listed for this reason. > Is cannabis most effective for any particular type? To my knowledge, there is not a specific type of pain that cannabis has been shown to be "most effective" for. Cannabis acts on important receptors as an agonist or antagonist throughout our bodies. > Is it probably the wrong choice for any particular type? There is no evidence, that I'm aware of, that would indicate cannabis would exacerbate or otherwise extend pain for any type of treatment. On the contrary, we discovered our endocannabinoid system[1], which is a strong regulator of pain and discomfort signals, through research and treatment with cannabis. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system
- dekhn 10y ago
  That's.... fantastic. Coming from a PhD who understands how hard it is to organize and evaluate research, I appreciate that you organized and evaluated the research.
accountface 10y ago
"want to smoke weed and feel good or do you want to take some pills and have a hard time taking a shit" gee i don't know, doc
DaveSapien 10y ago
I can second this. I suffer badly enough to use strong opioids daily. Up side of them is I can code pretty well on it. I prefer weed for a better sense of self, but find it hard to code(impossible).
- 3131s 10y ago
  As a few others have mentioned, try a CBD concentrate. CBD is another cannabinoid in marijuana, but it doesn't make you high and it seems to be primarily responsible for the pain-relieving effects of marijuana.
jpha9 10y ago
It certainly has had a huge benefit in managing symptoms of PTSD it would seem. As an example, this site is from Veteran's Affairs Canada and shows how they will pay for medical cannabis. http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/help/faq/cannabis-medical-purposes http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/help/faq/cannabis-medical-purp...
alpb 10y ago
Related: a Last Week Tonight piece on Opioids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdPrQFjo2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdPrQFjo2o
recentdarkness 10y ago
I can't help myself but wonder if some of those patients actually went to one of those doctors because they can prescribe MMJ In that case the study would be a bit biased towards MMJ, wouldn't it?
agumonkey 10y ago
I skimmed the paper, I can't see what mode of intake they suggest. I suppose users were smoking joints. Wouldn't vaporised THC inhalation be even more effective and less damaging for health ?
- dekhn 10y ago
  The negative health effects of smoking cannabis are relatively low. See the recent NSF report; there is definitely a problem with chronic respiratory issues for extremely heavy smokers, but no risk for cancer except for a type of prostate cancer which is easily treated.
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    I planned to use it for therapeutic purposes or soft health improver. So no heavy usage and possibly zero smoke/combustion.
    - dekhn 10y ago
      That's fine. Depending on what's available, I suggest getting a vape pen and using concentrates. With the heat dialed low, it's just steam.
  - johnward 10y ago
    My assumption that burning and inhaling anything would be dangerous has been proven wrong a few times on HN. Users have posted studies that show no real negative effects of smoking cannabis.
    - antoniuschan99 10y ago
      I disagree with this though. I've been smoking and vaping for years and every time my throat feels weird. I've been making these oils that is just Hemp or Coconut Oil with the flower infused in it. It lasts a lot longer, but takes much longer to start. Around 2 hours whereas smoking is right away.
righteousmob 10y ago
And fundamentalists Christians would rather let God heal their children than consult medical professionals. Let's not elevate the desires of the non-professional to equal the guidance of medical professionals, no matter how wishful we are to do so.
- prodmerc 10y ago
  And they should be free to do so. Fewer dumb people in the world. You want to pop your heroin, you're free to listen to the pros. Others think cannabis works better for them? Let them have it.
  - driverdan 10y ago
    > And they should be free to do so. For themselves sure. For their children, no.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  The bigger issue with this statement is effectiveness. It seems that we can't find evidence for the prayer healing. I've caught wind that prayer can sometimes help the individual alongside modern medicine (the same goes for positive thinking). I also assume these folks had a religious leaning before they got sick. On the other hand, we've actually studied some of the effects of "recreational drugs" on pain and mental health. It has been difficult considering the laws of the land, so we've not done as much as we could have.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  If a patient feels that their pain management needs are being met better by a medication that is also safer than the alternative, why would a medical professional second guess that?
benevol 10y ago
There are also other substances (such as psilocybin and LSD) which have the potential to massively reduce the cashflow of big pharma (specifically: in the case of anti-depressants). And now you understand the importance of the War on Drugs for billionaires in our society. It seems people are slowly beginning to understand to what degree our society and its systems are corrupted by "economic forces" and not built with the interest of the citizens' wellbeing at heart.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I see people say this, and I disagree. And just for clarity, I'm definitely pro-drug legalisation - even of drugs I never want to be in the same room with. I think drug companies are precisely the sort of place to produce medical-grade LSD (and other therapudic "recreational" drugs) that has predictable dosages. Same goes for cannabinoids in pill form - especially the sorts meant for folks that would rather skip the high. Someone will need to supply mental health & addiction centers with this. And I think the sale of which will be basically on-par with at least generic anti-depressants. It won't replace anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds, however. While some folks find improvements in such treatments, it can also make the symptoms worse. It isn't a cure-all, but rather an important alternative and/or addition to current drug treatments. Of course, this is all assuming folks have a clinical setting and that "big pharma" enters this section of the market. This isn't saying that the war on drugs isn't something about money, but I highly doubt it is big pharma. In fact, considering some of the horror stories about medical treatment in prisons, it might actually be a positive for them even if they don't enter the market as those folks would theoretically get "normal" medical treatment. In contrast, private and public prisons have a huge network of suppliers. Companies and the government hire inmates to do work at very low labor costs. These folks have much more to lose from the end of the drug war.
  - awestroke 10y ago
    LSD cannot be patented, so Big Pharma cannot make money on it - they'd have to compete on price, which would lead to really slim margins. If LSD is kept illegal, they can sell patented "alternatives" at huge margins.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
okonomiyaki3000 10y ago
Maybe these patients aren't aware of the risks. Maybe they don't know it can KILL!!! http://hightimes.com/news/chelsea-clinton-suggests-marijuana-is-killing-people/ http://hightimes.com/news/chelsea-clinton-suggests-marijuana...
- dutchbrit 10y ago
  This is hardly proof that it kills. And mixing particular drugs with particular other drugs can always cause issues. This doesn't make marijuana a 'killer'.
  - tomjakubowski 10y ago
    GP linked to a story in High Times. I think they agree with you and the post is sarcastic.
nthcolumn 10y ago
They are making it 'more' illegal in the UK. You are drug tested if you are pulled over by their pigs and their companies do urine tests on every single employee regardless of role and fired. Unless you are an exec I bet and for something you could have done legally over a month ago stateside. My niece has Crohn's. From a lovely vibrant kid she has managed this pain with a smile and nearly died once or twice. She is ill again now. How many of those cunts snort coke before their big hypocritical speeches?
- DanBC 10y ago
  >> their companies do urine tests on every single employee regardless of role and fired. https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testing https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testi... > 2. Drug testing > Employers have to have consent if they want to test for drugs. Usually this is when they have a full contractual health and safety policy, which should be in the contract or staff handbook. > Employers should: > limit testing to employees that need to be tested > ensure the tests are random > *not single out particular employees for testing unless this is justified by the nature of their jobs > Workers can’t be made to take a drugs test but if they refuse when the employer has good grounds for testing, they may face disciplinary action. https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/health-and-safety/drugs-and-alcohol/guides-and-reports-reps/drug-testing-workplace https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/health-and-safety/dr... > Despite claims from drugs-testing companies, there is no real evidence that drug-testing is becoming common-place in British workplaces. It is mainly used, often with union agreement, in safety critical areas such as transport and energy generation or after an incident. There is also increased usage in the construction industry. However generally where wide-scale drug testing has been considered it has been rejected either because of cost, union objections, or doubts over the effectiveness.
  - nthcolumn 10y ago
    Everyone (allegedly) got tested. My buddy got fired. He worked on an IT helpdesk. It is in the small print of his contract. Yes it is construction. UK gov is a ministry of information thing. It says a lot of things that companies here just ignore because they can. Wrongful dismissal laws here were neutered by the tories. More friends tell me it is happening in their companies too. I would show the contract /say more but I do not want to identify myself. But thanks for the downvotes I hope the view is nice from that gilded tower.
Taylor_OD 10y ago
I've got serious neck and shoulder pain from wrestling in high school and college. Currently don't have the time to get proper treatment. Doctors have tried to prescribe opioids and even tranquilizers for the pain to help me sleep but I'm terrified, with good cause, of becoming addicted. I took a run of percocet in high school for my wisdom teeth and enjoyed them too much to ever have that be a regular part of my life. No mater what the pain is like I don't think I'll be able to feel comfortable taking any opioids.
- zephyrthenoble 10y ago
  I used to have chronic neck pain, and didn't think that it would ever get better. I was eventually convinced to go to physical therapy at a location near my job. It took several months of me going in for half an hour, twice a week, but my pain started to subside. I now only occasionally get pain when I have very poor posture. Give PT a try. It really doesn't take very long and is very effective.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    ^This!!! So much this. I had a similar issue years ago, and beyond the help of the therapy itself, she also pointed out all of things I was doing day in, day out, that caused my problem in the first place. She taught me to moderate the intensity of my typing, to take breaks, good posture, stretches, all of that. It's valuable stuff to learn, plus the therapy itself.
- dandersh 10y ago
  Someone mentioned physical therapy, which is a good idea. Another one might be going to a chiropractor (if it is an alignment issue). Given your aversion to taking opioids I would suggest trying to determine the exact nature of the pain (muscular, alignment, etc.) and attempt a suitable non-medicinal treatment (PT, chiropractor, yoga, etc.) As someone who occasionally gets mild and (easily treatable) shoulder/neck pain I hope you get better, it's not something that is easy to deal with.
  - 10y ago
codr4life 10y ago
I have a broken spine from a 10 yo climbing accident, with a smashed vertibrae and splinters sticking into the spinal column. I was prescribed Oxy after surgery, spent a month on them and then went through hell and back to get off the shit. I swore to never, ever touch anything from Big Pharma again. Since then, I've been happily puffing my pain away when needed. The whole 'illegalize to protect the people' is so obviously a scam. It's a sacred, healing plant.
notadoc 10y ago
I suppose the more important question is, does it really matter? Use what works for the individual patient, every patient is different.
SomeHacker44 10y ago
I was 8 hours from heading to the airport for a family trip to Amsterdam last summer when I burned the heck out of the fingers of my right (dominant) hand. It was probably the most pain I had ever been in, even including a compound fracture of the clavicle that involved 8 screws and a metal bar to repair. The latter caused me to get addicted (unknowningly) to opioids (hydrocodone) which led to a miserable week of withdrawl symptoms. I didn't take any opioids a year later after the surgery to remove all that hardware. I told the doctors at the hospital I didn't want to get addicted again, so they gave me Tramadol. I made it to Amsterdam and, that night, I finally gave in and took one of the Tramadols. It put me through a loop and wringer, but took away the pain and let me sleep through the night mostly. The next day, my wife came back to our place with a "space muffin", or pot-laced chocolate brownie thing. I had never had any edibles before. That night, I figured, what the heck, they're always talking about medical uses so I ate it. I have never been so surprised at something anecdotal in my life. The pain was gone just as well as the night before with Tramadol. Furthermore, although the edible definitely was psychoactive, I was much more functional and less out of it than the single Tramadol I took, and felt much better the next day - not hung over. I became a strong medical marijuana advocate that night. Damn shame we don't have this available in my home state in the USA. Damn shame we have a moron of a President who loves states rights except when he doesn't (most of the time?). Damn shame we have a war on drugs. <sigh>
carreina1 10y ago
I want to openly thank Binary H. for his service… he helped me from infidelity and lies of my cheating husband. he was able to hack his cell phone so i listen to every call he makes or receives, hacked his whatapps, email and Facebook, without him finding out,it really helped my lawyer during my divorce i have been scammed so many times but Binary H. is the best hacker i have met,he helped me regain my freedom…i know there are lots of people out there looking for proof and evidences about one thing or the other. Be open and confide in him so he can be at the best of his service to you. Do contact him via email Binaryhacker016@gmail.com …. Tell him carreina referred you for swift response....
carreina1 10y ago
I want to openly thank Binary H. for his service… he helped me from infidelity and lies of my cheating husband. he was able to hack his cell phone so i listen to every call he makes or receives, hacked his whatapps, email and Facebook, without him finding out,it really helped my lawyer during my divorce i have been scammed so many times but Binary H. is the best hacker i have met,he helped me regain my freedom…i know there are lots of people out there looking for proof and evidences about one thing or the other. Be open and confide in him so he can be at the best of his service to you. Do contact him via email Binaryhacker016@gmail.com …. Tell him carreina referred you for swift response....

412 points by M_Grey 10y ago

In many cases, though, cannabis and CBD oil aren't nearly as effective as opioids for relief from severe pain, right? How often is this a viable alternative for patients? This study only looked at 250 people who already have medical cannabis prescriptions for pain, so this shouldn't be extrapolated too heavily.

M_Grey 10y ago
It may not be as simple as all or nothing you know. It could be adjunct therapy for people who would normally reach for another pill. Truthfully though, I also wonder which pain cannabis is most effective for, compared to opiates. The truth seems to be that opiates are broadly ineffective at the relief of severe pain in many people too, but they're also toxic. It may be that this is better if only because of the lack of toxicity.
- Retric 10y ago
  Opioids reduce, but don't block extreme pain so much as make you not care about it. They work really well for short term, less extreme pain, but they become less effective over time and they side effects are nasty. So my guess is people with long term pain are probably better off with canibis long term even if Opiods work really well for post operation pain for example.
  - amalag 10y ago
    Would be great if opiods never left the hospital.
    - adanto6840 10y ago
      There would probably be a lot of people that legitimately would never be able to leave the hospital -- there really are people out there with legitimate chronic pain. I say this after having had a C6-C7 spine fusion surgery -- prior to that, the pain was incredible. And two or three years ago I couldn't have even imagined what that kind of pain felt like, until I was actually suffering it. Luckily surgery was incredibly effective, and I hated having to take pain pills (made it difficult to work), but the pre-op alternative (living with constant pain) wasn't very great. I certainly didn't want to sit in a hospital just to be able to move around a bit -- and I couldn't have immediate surgery, though I did have surgery as soon as I was allowed to (primarily due to insurance). I'm sure there are people out there with far worse pain, and in many cases likely untreatable causes. Putting all of those people in the hospital certainly isn't going to help with insurance prices, nor is it a particularly humane way to treat people in the general sense.
    - emcq 10y ago
      I was on opiods for a month. At the time it was prohibitive to get out of bed, let alone go to the hospital. I dont remember it much but sleeping on my own bed beats the heck out of the hospital.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      People in long term pain need better access to specialist pain management clinics with the full range of interventions - exercise, alternative prescribing, etc. But even with Opioids Aware prescribing, and even if cannabis is legalised, some people will still need opioids. http://www.fpm.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware http://www.fpm.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware
antisthenes 10y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503660/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503660/ A few queries resulted in this, which is pretty informative as far as cannabioid treatments go. You're right, the benefits and potency aren't very clear cut, but, unlike opioids, THC-based treatments can produce desirable side benefits, which result in overall better outcomes (if we treat patient satisfaction as a major factor)
taneq 10y ago
If even 250 people are taking cannabis (not physically addictive, limited health impact, no tolerance buildup) over opiates (highly addictive, rapid tolerance buildup, very risky) then that's a good thing, right?
- ehnto 10y ago
  The lack of side effects should be a key part of the decision. Effectiveness of pain relief is in my perhaps inempathetic opinion less important. People can handle some pain, and that is fine. 100% pain relief through opiates vs 50% pain relief through less detrimental means is probably worth it.
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    But surely most opioid pain treatments will have less side effects than pot? Although, I suppose the side effects of pot are considered desirable by many.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      No, most opioid pain treatments have far more severe side effects than pot, and they tend to have a high risk of serious addiction that limits their dosage.
      - ryanlol 10y ago
        >most opioid pain treatments have far more severe side effects than pot What are those? Beyond the physical addiction, which shouldn't be much of an issue with proper dosage.
        PeterisP 10y ago
        First, physical addiction is an issue, since the "proper dosage" to mitigate a particular patient's pain can easily be higher (or more frequent) than the "proper dosage" to avoid addiction; so on one hand some patients have to suffer without being able to increase the dose, and on the other hand the statistics show that even if in theory it "shouldn't be much of an issue", in practice addiction does happen. But for the pure side effects, the most common issues are constipation and nausea. Then there's sedation (which may be comparable to effects of pot), and of course the suppressed breathing which makes accidental overdoses potentially deadly, unlike pot. Especially for chronic pain management, the long term effects add up, then you also risk liver damage, etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18443635 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18443635 is a good place to start if you're interested in details.
deelowe 10y ago
Treating chronic pain has less to do with pain relief and more to do with mental health. Sometimes people just want to forget or feel different for a while. Also, opiates suck!
- sergers 10y ago
  I see it as more of a therapeutic effect that relieves the pain/symptoms till there not noticeable and doesn't limit you Combine this with other therapy methods and you have rid yourself of pain, or at least rid yourself of the holds it has it over you.
- millstone 10y ago
  Where'd you get this idea? Any citations? Your comment reads condescending to me: "my pain is all in my head." But it's not, and treating my mental heath is treating the symptoms and not the cause. The best thing for my mental health would be an end to my physical pain.
  - lukewink 10y ago
    That's the thing though... with chronic pain there is no end to the physical pain, and this fact alone can be mentally taxing. Sometimes taking your mind off your situation is more effective than painkillers. Chronic pain is a life long mental _and_ physical battle.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    You've said that your mental health is suffering because of the pain you're in. People offering mental health treatment are not saying the pain is "all in your head"[1]. They're saying you deserve treatment for all your problems, not just a focus on one specific pain problem. We've known for sometime that treatment for mental illness is more effective if it looks at more than the patient's mental illness - if it looks at all the biological, psychological, and social factors. This concept is moving into physical health treatment, especially for long term pain. And it seems that mental health treatment can reduce the amount of pain that people feel. [1] I'm not sure if you realise just how dismissive this sounds. Mental illness is debilitating and one of the top ten causes of years lost to disability. Those people aren't "making it up", which is the implication many will draw from your "all in my head" comment.
conistonwater 10y ago
I think the authors say that the pain relief itself is only part of it: > Lucas suggests the main reasons for the switch to cannabis from prescribed meds is due to reduced side effects, better symptom management and a feeling that cannabis is safer than prescription drugs. Also, looking at http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/understanding-pain-management-chronic-pain http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/understanding-pai..., it seems like chronic pain doesn't necessarily (?) mean severe pain, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
- brokenmasonjars 10y ago
  I don't really have any authority to really add anything but I will say my understanding of chronic is long lasting. Doesn't necessarily have to be severe pain, just long lasting. I have some chronic pains from a bad fall a few years ago. Unfortunately PA is moving like a turtle in it's medical marijuana roll out. When I think of cannabis, I view it as safer. You don't hear about overdoes like you do with opioids. Add in a few famous celebrity deaths like Prince you quickly get a public image that views opioids with suspicion. In my opinion rightly so. Hopefully medical marijuana can be more accessible to more people sooner.
WalterSear 10y ago
I was diagnosed with chronic pain syndrome, and when given the opportunity, had my doctor switch my prescription from opioids to cannabis. I don't think that one can appreciate how effective it is for chronic pain, until you've had to use it for that.
- poohbs 10y ago
  similarly, those who have only had opioids for acute pain (injuries, post-op, and such) have a hard time appreciating just how much baggage comes with these drugs when they are taken indefinitely.
  - WalterSear 10y ago
    Yes, the side effects of the opioids were as much of a reason for me to want to switch, if not more so.
  - PastaMonster 10y ago
    Well, they lose effectiveness. The body adjusts to the constant input. Which is what addiction is. What many people don't understand is that addiction isn't drug abuse. We should fight to remove the negativity the word addiction have. Very annoying that the body do this. If you could figure out a drug that prevents this you could make billions! For example and something everyone can try: My body is addicted to coffee. If I don't take it for a few days I'll become very tired, headaches, etc. It's lasts for about two weeks. While addicted I don't abuse it. I've even switched to tea a few times.
- seattle_spring 10y ago
  Could you recommend what products specifically help you the most? I've had chronic neck and back pain for years. Smoking marijuana actually tends to make it worse, but I haven't experimented with specific strains, ingestion methods, etc.
  - WalterSear 10y ago
    It's important to note that, unlike opioids, cannabis doesn't make the sensation of pain less strong, it makes it less urgent. This means that if you won't necessarily feel a direct effect on the pain, but that its subsequent effects aren't as strong - the pain is not as exhausting, distracting, or debilitating. In fact, the initial 'come-on' of cannabis tends to make me more aware of my pain for a few seconds. Moreover, my pain is neuropathic, rather than physiological in nature, and so what works for me, may not work for other forms of pain. That said, I had the best effect managing pain with high CBD low THC strains - meaning strains with over 7% CBD and one percent or less THC. For me, the pain relief is so profound and quick acting that I can pinpoint the second it starts to have an effect, and it has the added benefit of leaving me sober enough that I can go about my business. Unfortunately, while I found CBD strains most effective for pain, I personally have not been able to tolerate them - they cause me memory problems that I have not found any mention of in the literature, not anyone else who experiences them. So, what do I use, when I need to keep the pain at bay? Usually I reach for a concentrate of a indica-dominant hybrid, or an pure indica. I stay way from Sour Diesels, and the like, as they don't agree with me, but these things tend to be individual in nature. Sorry not to be much more help: all I can really recommend is low THC/high CBD strains, and smoking/vaping concentrates or hashish rather than eating, at least until you find something that works for you.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
> , cannabis and CBD oil aren't nearly as effective as opioids for relief from severe pain, right? Taking opioids for pain relief is a dangerous route as doctors are now more likely to cut your Rx off if they suspect abuse. IF you are addicted and/or still have significant pain, you may have to resort to street drugs with unknown potency and purity. I'd rather go with the medication that won't lead down a life-threatening path. If the treatment is worse then the symptoms, it's not really worth it.
thescriptkiddie 10y ago
Opioids are dramatically more effective than cannabis at relieving acute pain. Arguably, so are ibuprofen and acetaminophen. What cannabis is useful for is chronic pain, especially pain of inflammation. The use of opiods to treat chronic pain is problematic for many reasons, addiction being a big one, but there are also significant side effects. Cannabis is much safer to use long term.
jessep 10y ago
I wrote my story as a root comment, but I get kidney stones, which are among the most intensely painful things humans experience. I have found getting really high more effective than opioids. I haven't yet used cannabis during the peak pain, because I haven't had kidney stones again since I first tried cannabis instead of opioids, but next time I'm going to.
sehugg 10y ago
MS sufferers take it for muscle spasms and neuropathy. Opioids have problems like tolerance and stomach irritation that cannabis does not, and since MS is usually a lifelong affliction this can be bad over the long term.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I was going to comment something similar. I'll add this, however. Some MS patients also suffer with muscle spasticity - basically a muscle that stays contracted. This can be painful and limit mobility: At best it is uncomfortable. Normal treatment includes things like Valium. In tests with cannabis, patients reported improvements with both mobility and the amount of pain/discomfort. However, when researchers measured the spasticity there was no clinical improvement. Both were true - it seems sometimes all folks need to do is not be so bothered by their daily pains.

chejazi 10y ago

The timing of this is interesting. A few days ago, the White House press sec claimed cannabis is a gateway to opioid use: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/24/sean-spicer-seemed-to-tie-marijuana-use-to-opioids-the-evidence-isnt-on-his-side/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/2...

verelo 10y ago
Reminds me of when Stephen Harper claimed Marijuana was worse than tobacco and the rather hilarious reaction by Canadians that followed his statement: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-pot-marijuana-1.3255727 http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-pot-marijuana... From the comments "hey Steve...smoke a blunt or two and mellow out." is the kind of sentiment that I heard a lot of in Toronto.
- fencepost 10y ago
  From his standpoint pot is much worse than tobacco - pot doesn't have well-funded lobbyists, campaign contributors, etc.
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    I'm kind of surprised that the alcohol and tobacco industries don't lobby for legalization. They could potentially diversify in to marijuana manufacture and sale, and leverage their brands and experience in selling other recreational drugs. The pharmaceutical industry could similarly profit from manufacturing and selling medical marijuana.
    - zensavona 10y ago
      The problem from the pharma companies point of view is that they have patents on a lot of their drugs, granting exclusivity on production. Marijuana is a plant which anyone can grow (and thus compete with them).
      - 10y ago

Grexar 10y ago

The original article and this post have a very poor headline. The study covered pain relievers, anti-depressants, and sedatives. The people were not just suffering from pain. Some had mental health issues. Some has gastrointestinal issues. I suspect the reason why cannabis was so popular is because it helps with a lot of conditions instead of just one. Also, cannabis has a much milder effect than prescription drugs and fewer negative side effects. It's not much of a stretch to imagine someone using it in place of a prescription drug when their symptoms are not as strong. A "friend of mine" who suffers in excruciating pain for days from the occasional kidney stone smokes weed and takes ibuprofen rather than go through bottles of prescription pain killers. They have tremendously negative side effects if taken over a long period of time that he would rather not experience on top of the pain. After seeing his sister get addicted to them after having surgery, he doesn't want to risk them destroying his life.

sergers 10y ago

My mom has benefited from cannabis to help treat chrohns. While nothing has cured, it's been the most effective with no known side effects. Plus it's cheaper than the meds she has been buying for years (spending out of pocket upwards $10k a year with $500 a pill just for flare ups even with medicare in Canada). She has been in hell for 30 years. They wanted to remove her small intestine ~20 years ago and she didn't want to make that sacrifice and lived with the pain. Nothing honestly helped long term till I convinced her to try cannabis 3 years ago that so far has been more effective. She is now on low daily dose with no flare-ups in atleast a year. From personal experience as a 15 year recreational user and 10 years actual therapy/medicinal use:For chronic pain and intestinal issues it works wonders, but it's not any immediate relief with severe pain. That may change with higher concentrations and improvements in delivery methods.

nitemice 10y ago
According to work done by the Johns Hopkins group, smoking or vaporising can provide pretty quick relief, whereas ingestion is good for chronic pain. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/what-do-we-know-about-the-effects-of-medical-marijuana/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/what-do-we-know-abou...
- sergers 10y ago
  Yea maybe I haven't had strong enough. I tried to treat a toothache and another time arm injury by vaping CBD oil at 25mg/ml. 5 ml later(tank capacity), it didn't do too much relief. I think if I had strong enough (500mg-1000mg CBD) I think it could potentially provide larger relief. I think my tolerance has been raised due to years of recreational use vs therapeutic/real medicine use
  - jessep 10y ago
    I know people say CBD is good for pain, but in my experience the high is actually part of what helps. I personally like good old OG Kush for pain.

trub 10y ago

I got hit by a car on a bicycle. Instead of taking pain mess, I used edibles and marijuana for 2 weeks. It was just as effective, if not more because I was functional.

beambot 10y ago

Surprising that big pharma is an opponent to a readily-available natural substance outside the purview of patent protections. Quick, better enforce the federal ban. </s>

aphextron 10y ago
>Quick, better enforce the federal ban. Fortunately, things have progressed so far at the state level that it would be impossible for the feds to shut it down now.
PastaMonster 10y ago
Been asking myself why drugs that make you feel good is banned like cannabis, mushrooms, LSD, etc. Government got anything against people feeling good? Conspiracy?
- prodmerc 10y ago
  Something about people not getting addicted and ruining their lives. But then you see alcoholics, smokers with cancer, morbidly obese from food, stabbings... basically, follow the money to see why anything is banned, ever.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    Because opiates are well known to have no addictive properties whatsoever.
- kbart 10y ago
  Independent thinkers, open-minded people were always enemy of the state. Alcohol hampers your thought process and numbs you, but you can still labor the next day. Cannabis, mushrooms, LSD, on the other hand, broadens one's perspective and leads to more why? questions asked. See where it goes?

millstone 10y ago

Naive questions about this: 1. How many hours does MMJ control pain? 2. Does taking MMJ for chronic pain make you high all the time? 3. In California, most MMJ dispensaries are oriented towards recreational users. How do you go about this from a legitimately medical path, i.e. finding a doctor able and willing to provide sound medical advice, instead of just collecting the fee for a green card?

sergers 10y ago
With having alot of first hand and 2nd hand knowledge, I am very surprised by questions like these that show how much of the knowledge about this wonder drug have been suppressed and or generally just not known. 1)varies on so many factors to get into. -Tolerance,strength,variety,form, and how it's taken. What you eat before consumption can affect. 2)no. Lookup THC vs CBD, for pain relief it's more CBD which doesn't make you high at all. Some studies have shown full spectrum/mix of the 2 in concentrates may provide better results. 3)find a naturopath, or just go in and ask the dispensaries. Many dispensary workers are actually very knowledgeable. Not sure about Cali, but alot of dispensaries here are very knowledgeable and cater alot to medical use rather than recreational, even though their key market is recreational. Try finding a local compassion club, healing centers etc for support/seminars or information. Recent article on CBD: http://hightimes.com/medicinal/cbd-the-cinderella-molecule/ http://hightimes.com/medicinal/cbd-the-cinderella-molecule/
- driverdan 10y ago
  I downvoted you for two reasons. Cannabis is not a wonder drug. It treats a few things effectively, like many other drugs. Just because it has been suppressed doesn't mean you should use hyperbole. Second, naturopaths are quacks. They do not have proper medical training and often recommend nonsense like homeopathy. They are the opposite of what the OP was asking for.
  - sergers 10y ago
    maybe from your experience. Cannabis has not been fully explored since its supression by pharma/govt. there are many areas which they are discovering it treats effectively, more than a few already known and more being discovered. i have seen a naturopath who also has a doctorate in science based medicine, and is not some hack pitching homeopathy. not all are quacks and not all dont have medical training , i downvoted you for this reason, doesnt mean you should use a hyperbole.. :) who do you recommend to see? you provided no information relevant to what OP was asking. should they go see a medical doctor who in general (not all) dont believe the effectiveness just due to the stigma of marijuana? or would you recommend a naturopath who may (not all) who has hands on experience advising and dealing with patients who have tried marijuana to help with various ailments.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jessep 10y ago

I get kidney stones pretty often (6 times in the last 8 years). I vomit from the pain, convulse on the floor, lose all sense of self as I just struggle to survive the sensation. It is intense. Usually I have to go to the emergency room for IV opioids. Then they give you some to take home after you pass the peak of the pain. Last time it happened to me, I went home at around 6pm after going into the hospital that morning. At 3am, the pain was again intolerable. I had already taken the maximum dosage of the opioids. I knew taking more was dangerous, and was keenly afraid of getting addicted. But the pain was too much, so I went to get the bottle of pills. As I stood up to go get the pills, it occurred to me that people say weed is good for pain and that I should try it before taking more opioids. I had weed (in cali, have a "medical" card) so I took some out and smoked. I cannot describe to you how much more effective it was than the opioids. The pain wasn't gone, but it was just an interesting sensation now. Genuinely didn't bother me. I did yoga. I read. I enjoyed the night. And I was flabbergasted that no one I touched in the medical establishment had ever recommended it. It feels like a genuinely corrupt world where something so clearly damaging to people and society is recommended before something relatively harmless and widely available. I am still in awe of how effectively it handled my pain.

andrei_says_ 10y ago
Know that there are whole lineages of yoga associated with the use of this power plant. I recommend exploring the combination while remaining open to being led (as in moves and timing) by the plant and by the enhanced awareness of what needs attention/release in the body. It may be helpful to commit the mind prior to the session and create a distraction- and thinking- free environment.
egloo 10y ago
Have you tried chanca piedra? It's an herb, but has been run through medical trials in Germany with great success. I use it and it seems to have lessened my kidney stone issues.
- jessep 10y ago
  No, thanks for the rec!

randomdrake 10y ago

For folks looking for more information regarding published studies on the topic, we supply an index of over 800 cannabis studies organized by almost 170 conditions, and summarized with a weighted average by our contributing PhD: https://www.cannabisreports.com/cannabis-studies https://www.cannabisreports.com/cannabis-studies This includes a section for studies on cannabis and opioid addictions.

criddell 10y ago
Maybe you can shed some light: there are lots of different kinds of pain, right? Is cannabis most effective for any particular type? Is it probably the wrong choice for any particular type?
- randomdrake 10y ago
  > there are lots of different kinds of pain, right? Yes, we have 7 or 8 different types of categorical pains listed for this reason. > Is cannabis most effective for any particular type? To my knowledge, there is not a specific type of pain that cannabis has been shown to be "most effective" for. Cannabis acts on important receptors as an agonist or antagonist throughout our bodies. > Is it probably the wrong choice for any particular type? There is no evidence, that I'm aware of, that would indicate cannabis would exacerbate or otherwise extend pain for any type of treatment. On the contrary, we discovered our endocannabinoid system[1], which is a strong regulator of pain and discomfort signals, through research and treatment with cannabis. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system
dekhn 10y ago
That's.... fantastic. Coming from a PhD who understands how hard it is to organize and evaluate research, I appreciate that you organized and evaluated the research.

accountface 10y ago

"want to smoke weed and feel good or do you want to take some pills and have a hard time taking a shit" gee i don't know, doc

DaveSapien 10y ago

I can second this. I suffer badly enough to use strong opioids daily. Up side of them is I can code pretty well on it. I prefer weed for a better sense of self, but find it hard to code(impossible).

3131s 10y ago
As a few others have mentioned, try a CBD concentrate. CBD is another cannabinoid in marijuana, but it doesn't make you high and it seems to be primarily responsible for the pain-relieving effects of marijuana.

jpha9 10y ago

It certainly has had a huge benefit in managing symptoms of PTSD it would seem. As an example, this site is from Veteran's Affairs Canada and shows how they will pay for medical cannabis. http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/help/faq/cannabis-medical-purposes http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/help/faq/cannabis-medical-purp...

alpb 10y ago

Related: a Last Week Tonight piece on Opioids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdPrQFjo2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdPrQFjo2o

recentdarkness 10y ago

I can't help myself but wonder if some of those patients actually went to one of those doctors because they can prescribe MMJ In that case the study would be a bit biased towards MMJ, wouldn't it?

agumonkey 10y ago

I skimmed the paper, I can't see what mode of intake they suggest. I suppose users were smoking joints. Wouldn't vaporised THC inhalation be even more effective and less damaging for health ?

dekhn 10y ago
The negative health effects of smoking cannabis are relatively low. See the recent NSF report; there is definitely a problem with chronic respiratory issues for extremely heavy smokers, but no risk for cancer except for a type of prostate cancer which is easily treated.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I planned to use it for therapeutic purposes or soft health improver. So no heavy usage and possibly zero smoke/combustion.
  - dekhn 10y ago
    That's fine. Depending on what's available, I suggest getting a vape pen and using concentrates. With the heat dialed low, it's just steam.
- johnward 10y ago
  My assumption that burning and inhaling anything would be dangerous has been proven wrong a few times on HN. Users have posted studies that show no real negative effects of smoking cannabis.
  - antoniuschan99 10y ago
    I disagree with this though. I've been smoking and vaping for years and every time my throat feels weird. I've been making these oils that is just Hemp or Coconut Oil with the flower infused in it. It lasts a lot longer, but takes much longer to start. Around 2 hours whereas smoking is right away.

righteousmob 10y ago

And fundamentalists Christians would rather let God heal their children than consult medical professionals. Let's not elevate the desires of the non-professional to equal the guidance of medical professionals, no matter how wishful we are to do so.

prodmerc 10y ago
And they should be free to do so. Fewer dumb people in the world. You want to pop your heroin, you're free to listen to the pros. Others think cannabis works better for them? Let them have it.
- driverdan 10y ago
  > And they should be free to do so. For themselves sure. For their children, no.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
The bigger issue with this statement is effectiveness. It seems that we can't find evidence for the prayer healing. I've caught wind that prayer can sometimes help the individual alongside modern medicine (the same goes for positive thinking). I also assume these folks had a religious leaning before they got sick. On the other hand, we've actually studied some of the effects of "recreational drugs" on pain and mental health. It has been difficult considering the laws of the land, so we've not done as much as we could have.
TheCoelacanth 10y ago
If a patient feels that their pain management needs are being met better by a medication that is also safer than the alternative, why would a medical professional second guess that?

benevol 10y ago

There are also other substances (such as psilocybin and LSD) which have the potential to massively reduce the cashflow of big pharma (specifically: in the case of anti-depressants). And now you understand the importance of the War on Drugs for billionaires in our society. It seems people are slowly beginning to understand to what degree our society and its systems are corrupted by "economic forces" and not built with the interest of the citizens' wellbeing at heart.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago
I see people say this, and I disagree. And just for clarity, I'm definitely pro-drug legalisation - even of drugs I never want to be in the same room with. I think drug companies are precisely the sort of place to produce medical-grade LSD (and other therapudic "recreational" drugs) that has predictable dosages. Same goes for cannabinoids in pill form - especially the sorts meant for folks that would rather skip the high. Someone will need to supply mental health & addiction centers with this. And I think the sale of which will be basically on-par with at least generic anti-depressants. It won't replace anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds, however. While some folks find improvements in such treatments, it can also make the symptoms worse. It isn't a cure-all, but rather an important alternative and/or addition to current drug treatments. Of course, this is all assuming folks have a clinical setting and that "big pharma" enters this section of the market. This isn't saying that the war on drugs isn't something about money, but I highly doubt it is big pharma. In fact, considering some of the horror stories about medical treatment in prisons, it might actually be a positive for them even if they don't enter the market as those folks would theoretically get "normal" medical treatment. In contrast, private and public prisons have a huge network of suppliers. Companies and the government hire inmates to do work at very low labor costs. These folks have much more to lose from the end of the drug war.
- awestroke 10y ago
  LSD cannot be patented, so Big Pharma cannot make money on it - they'd have to compete on price, which would lead to really slim margins. If LSD is kept illegal, they can sell patented "alternatives" at huge margins.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

okonomiyaki3000 10y ago

Maybe these patients aren't aware of the risks. Maybe they don't know it can KILL!!! http://hightimes.com/news/chelsea-clinton-suggests-marijuana-is-killing-people/ http://hightimes.com/news/chelsea-clinton-suggests-marijuana...

dutchbrit 10y ago
This is hardly proof that it kills. And mixing particular drugs with particular other drugs can always cause issues. This doesn't make marijuana a 'killer'.
- tomjakubowski 10y ago
  GP linked to a story in High Times. I think they agree with you and the post is sarcastic.

nthcolumn 10y ago

They are making it 'more' illegal in the UK. You are drug tested if you are pulled over by their pigs and their companies do urine tests on every single employee regardless of role and fired. Unless you are an exec I bet and for something you could have done legally over a month ago stateside. My niece has Crohn's. From a lovely vibrant kid she has managed this pain with a smile and nearly died once or twice. She is ill again now. How many of those cunts snort coke before their big hypocritical speeches?

DanBC 10y ago
>> their companies do urine tests on every single employee regardless of role and fired. https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testing https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testi... > 2. Drug testing > Employers have to have consent if they want to test for drugs. Usually this is when they have a full contractual health and safety policy, which should be in the contract or staff handbook. > Employers should: > limit testing to employees that need to be tested > ensure the tests are random > *not single out particular employees for testing unless this is justified by the nature of their jobs > Workers can’t be made to take a drugs test but if they refuse when the employer has good grounds for testing, they may face disciplinary action. https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/health-and-safety/drugs-and-alcohol/guides-and-reports-reps/drug-testing-workplace https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/health-and-safety/dr... > Despite claims from drugs-testing companies, there is no real evidence that drug-testing is becoming common-place in British workplaces. It is mainly used, often with union agreement, in safety critical areas such as transport and energy generation or after an incident. There is also increased usage in the construction industry. However generally where wide-scale drug testing has been considered it has been rejected either because of cost, union objections, or doubts over the effectiveness.
- nthcolumn 10y ago
  Everyone (allegedly) got tested. My buddy got fired. He worked on an IT helpdesk. It is in the small print of his contract. Yes it is construction. UK gov is a ministry of information thing. It says a lot of things that companies here just ignore because they can. Wrongful dismissal laws here were neutered by the tories. More friends tell me it is happening in their companies too. I would show the contract /say more but I do not want to identify myself. But thanks for the downvotes I hope the view is nice from that gilded tower.

Taylor_OD 10y ago

I've got serious neck and shoulder pain from wrestling in high school and college. Currently don't have the time to get proper treatment. Doctors have tried to prescribe opioids and even tranquilizers for the pain to help me sleep but I'm terrified, with good cause, of becoming addicted. I took a run of percocet in high school for my wisdom teeth and enjoyed them too much to ever have that be a regular part of my life. No mater what the pain is like I don't think I'll be able to feel comfortable taking any opioids.

zephyrthenoble 10y ago
I used to have chronic neck pain, and didn't think that it would ever get better. I was eventually convinced to go to physical therapy at a location near my job. It took several months of me going in for half an hour, twice a week, but my pain started to subside. I now only occasionally get pain when I have very poor posture. Give PT a try. It really doesn't take very long and is very effective.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  ^This!!! So much this. I had a similar issue years ago, and beyond the help of the therapy itself, she also pointed out all of things I was doing day in, day out, that caused my problem in the first place. She taught me to moderate the intensity of my typing, to take breaks, good posture, stretches, all of that. It's valuable stuff to learn, plus the therapy itself.
dandersh 10y ago
Someone mentioned physical therapy, which is a good idea. Another one might be going to a chiropractor (if it is an alignment issue). Given your aversion to taking opioids I would suggest trying to determine the exact nature of the pain (muscular, alignment, etc.) and attempt a suitable non-medicinal treatment (PT, chiropractor, yoga, etc.) As someone who occasionally gets mild and (easily treatable) shoulder/neck pain I hope you get better, it's not something that is easy to deal with.
- 10y ago

codr4life 10y ago

I have a broken spine from a 10 yo climbing accident, with a smashed vertibrae and splinters sticking into the spinal column. I was prescribed Oxy after surgery, spent a month on them and then went through hell and back to get off the shit. I swore to never, ever touch anything from Big Pharma again. Since then, I've been happily puffing my pain away when needed. The whole 'illegalize to protect the people' is so obviously a scam. It's a sacred, healing plant.

notadoc 10y ago

I suppose the more important question is, does it really matter? Use what works for the individual patient, every patient is different.

SomeHacker44 10y ago

I was 8 hours from heading to the airport for a family trip to Amsterdam last summer when I burned the heck out of the fingers of my right (dominant) hand. It was probably the most pain I had ever been in, even including a compound fracture of the clavicle that involved 8 screws and a metal bar to repair. The latter caused me to get addicted (unknowningly) to opioids (hydrocodone) which led to a miserable week of withdrawl symptoms. I didn't take any opioids a year later after the surgery to remove all that hardware. I told the doctors at the hospital I didn't want to get addicted again, so they gave me Tramadol. I made it to Amsterdam and, that night, I finally gave in and took one of the Tramadols. It put me through a loop and wringer, but took away the pain and let me sleep through the night mostly. The next day, my wife came back to our place with a "space muffin", or pot-laced chocolate brownie thing. I had never had any edibles before. That night, I figured, what the heck, they're always talking about medical uses so I ate it. I have never been so surprised at something anecdotal in my life. The pain was gone just as well as the night before with Tramadol. Furthermore, although the edible definitely was psychoactive, I was much more functional and less out of it than the single Tramadol I took, and felt much better the next day - not hung over. I became a strong medical marijuana advocate that night. Damn shame we don't have this available in my home state in the USA. Damn shame we have a moron of a President who loves states rights except when he doesn't (most of the time?). Damn shame we have a war on drugs. <sigh>

carreina1 10y ago

I want to openly thank Binary H. for his service… he helped me from infidelity and lies of my cheating husband. he was able to hack his cell phone so i listen to every call he makes or receives, hacked his whatapps, email and Facebook, without him finding out,it really helped my lawyer during my divorce i have been scammed so many times but Binary H. is the best hacker i have met,he helped me regain my freedom…i know there are lots of people out there looking for proof and evidences about one thing or the other. Be open and confide in him so he can be at the best of his service to you. Do contact him via email Binaryhacker016@gmail.com …. Tell him carreina referred you for swift response....

carreina1 10y ago