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Enforcement of the Immigration Laws to Serve the National Interest [pdf]
- pragone 10y agoIANAL, but this part seems incredibly open-ended - does anyone know if this is standard? Namely, I'm referring to parts 2, 3, 5, and 6, of which 2 and 3 seem to contradict the idea of "innocent until proven guilty", though I don't know how that applies to non-citizens, and 5 and 6 which seem extremely open to interpretation. > Additionally, regardless of the basis of removability, Department personnel should prioritize removable aliens who: (I) have been convicted of any criminal offense; (2) have been charged with any criminal offense that has not been resolved; (3) have committed acts which constitute a chargeable criminal offense; ( 4) have engaged in fraud or willful misrepresentation in connection with any official matter before a governmental agency; (5) have abused any program related to receipt of public benefits; (6) are subject to a final order of removal but have not complied with their legal obligation to depart the United States; or (7) in the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security.
- pharrlax 10y ago(3) is inviting abuse of due process
- matwood 10y agoI believe deportation is a civil offense [1], and is thus not under the same due process constraints of a criminal offense. [1] http://stopdeportationsnow.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-immigration-law-civil-or-criminal.html http://stopdeportationsnow.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-immigrati...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- trome 10y agoIn reading this, I see that there will no longer be any groups that are allowed to remain in the US based on prosecutor discretion (eg: Dreamers, kids/babies who were raised here will be deported), 10,000 more officers will be hired, and they plan to deputize more local police departments to deport people without Customs & Border Protection involvement. About the only major screwup here for effective mass deportations is the Trump administration is hiring too few people to round up these people. Back in the 1940s when we were rounding up Japanese to send to concentration camps, it took way more manpower to effectively round up that population to send them to squalid, disease filled camps we sent them to, and there weren't 6 million to be rounded up either. Hopefully this will get more Americans politically active at the very least, as when the food is rotting in the fields due to a lack of farm hands, that is when we will see something similar to what is happening with Obamacare and Republican voters right now.
- Shihan 10y agoSo, illegals are cheap slaves who work at the farms?
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoPeople who work hard for money are 'slaves' now? No, slaves are people in chains, like the ones we're 'rounding up' to send back.
- Retric 10y agoSlaves have often received pay, it's defined by deminished legal rights not nessisarily income.
- literallycancer 10y ago"Working hard" isn't inherently valuable. I really don't get this protestant obsession. "I know we pay you peanuts, but at least you get to work hard."
- feld 10y agoThey are cheap labor everywhere, the backbone of this country. When Latinos went on strike (illegal and legal) in Wisconsin to send a message to Walker every restaurant in Madison was shutdown and the farmers were panicking because nobody was there to milk the cows, and that's very bad for the cows. The ideal result here would probably be to streamline the path to citizenship, make it significantly cheaper, and get these people paying taxes as soon as possible.
- tempodox 10y ago> Department personnel should prioritize removable aliens who: ... (2) have been charged with any criminal offense that has not been resolved; ... (7) in the judgment of an immigration officer, otheiwise pose a risk to public safety or national security. So, if they accuse you wrongfully, or are just having a bad hair day, you're out. Having the opportunity for arbitrary abuse of power is a magnet for every nobody longing to be somebody. The Department of Humiliation Services will be home to all sorts of creeps.
- Jabbles 10y agoYou missed (3) have committed acts which constitute a chargeable criminal offense So they don't actually have to [wrongfully] accuse you.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- literallycancer 10y ago>(3) have committed acts which constitute a chargeable criminal offense This reads like they need to prove the person committed something, so the accusation will be used more often anyway.
- leereeves 10y agoDoes that mean that a legal resident can be removed merely for being charged with a crime, or does it only apply to illegal residents (who can legally be removed regardless).
- pragone 10y agoIt does state `removable aliens`, which I would assume would not include a legal resident or nonresident alien. I initially read it as applying to all aliens, regardless of status.
- jorgeleo 10y agoLegal residents too, at the discretion of the immigration officer, that is point 7 of that paragraph
- TuringNYC 10y agoI suspect illegal immigration populations will not go down much -- however -- open employers of illegal immigrants (farms, cleaning companies, construction companies) will simply further abuse illegal immigrants and threaten them with deportation for the slightest of slights.
- vaishaksuresh 10y agoand potentially opening up ways to force people into slavery. For all the rounding-up, shouldn't there be punishments for people who employ undocumented immigrants?
- TuringNYC 10y agoTotally agree. A sincere effort to stop illegal immigration would include penalties for the employers as well. Which is why the current EO seems disingenuous and more apt to intimidate+oppress rather than actually address all the root causes of illegal immigration.
- mpweiher 10y agoOh my god. So how about updating those laws? For example, an H1B who is fired has to leave the country by next day. This has always been ridiculous because: impossible. It wasn't enforced, so people could get new jobs or prepare properly for leaving. I also hear from people who have gone through the green card process as adults that it is actually not possible to go through that process while remaining legal. The craziness that is US immigration law (and pretty much anything having to do with damn foreigners) was only kept at bay by discretion, which is now removed. Did I already say "Oh my god"?
- leereeves 10y ago> it is actually not possible to go through [the green card] process while remaining legal. How so?
- mpweiher 10y agoI don't remember the details, but the whole thing is a multi-step process and there were gaps between the steps where you would be illegal, technically. AFAIK, everybody involved knew it was a bug in the system and therefore ignored those technicalities. Well...
- tacostakohashi 10y agoNot true - there is in fact a 60 day grace period for people in H1-B status, which can be used to find a new job, or between jobs. https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2016-27540/p-217 https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2016-27540/p-217
- mpweiher 10y agoYes. From the directive that's being talked about: "all existing conflicting directives, memoranda, or field guidance regarding the enforcement of our immigration laws and priorities for removal are hereby immediately rescinded" To me, what you referred to is exactly one of those "conflicting directives" that has now been rescinded, but I most certainly could be completely wrong about that.
- megous 10y agoI believe a lot of people could still benefit from reading about Broken Window fallacy, etc. It is still relevant 167 years later. Hint, it applies to labor too. http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html
- alphabettsy 10y agoYou should research the results of the theory in practice..
- megous 10y agoYou can really not, because economy is a complex system where you can never control other factors. At times, you may get actual reduction in some metric (say GDP), at others you may still get an increase in response to some major intervention into economy, because there are other inseparable overriding factors (like being in the middle of some major advance in technology, or business practices - but you can never know, control for that). You can only reason apriori about economic forces/interactions.
- coldcode 10y agoGood luck identifying and transporting 10-20 million people with due process while simultaneously not destroying the businesses that employ them, accidentally deporting citizens, and doing it outside the vision of cameras and youtube who will record thousands of frightened people behind razor wire or packed like sardines in railroad cars. 5-10% of the working population in this country are likely illegals generally working jobs no one else wants for low (and often illegal) pay. Who is going to build a 2000mi wall in Texas in the summer for minimum wage? Certainly no one reading HN.
- Asooka 10y agoBut maybe if we deport all those people, living conditions will finally get so bad that the actual citizens will enforce their constitutional rights and lead a revolution.
- mc32 10y agoThere is no reason we can't institute work visas like other countries do. Regulate it, have it be based on need and expand it to all applicable countries, not just neighbors.
- matwood 10y agoObama deported a lot of people and Trump is further expanding the deportations. The problem here is that we need immigration reform, not that we need to stop deporting people who have over stayed visas etc... Immigrants are self selecting people who want to have a better life. Why the US cannot figure out how to streamline legal immigration has been a failure of the US government for many years. Instead of 10k more officers to implement deportations, a better use of money would have been to use those people to improve/speed up the immigration process.
- thraway2016 10y ago> Immigrants are self selecting people who want to have a better life. Being a developer/scientist/entrepreneur whose primary exposure to immigrants is of high-IQ, high-agency, personable people similar to ourselves, it's easy to allow anecdote to obscure the facts. The facts are that immigrants - both legal and illegal - are far more likely than natives to parasitize the social services of their host country: http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-welfare-illegals-f1.png http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-welfare-illegals... http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-welfare-illegals-f2.png http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/camarota-welfare-illegals...
- matwood 10y agoThe problem is that study in particular is very poorly done. I'll be charitable and say they did not do it on purpose: https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfare-use https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exagger... The interesting question is not whether poor people use more welfare than rich people but whether poor immigrants are more likely to use more welfare than poor natives. Our research found that poor immigrants are less likely to use welfare than poor natives. The CIS report isn’t very useful because it doesn’t correct for this.
- yummyfajitas 10y agoThat would be an interesting question if we were answering the purely academic question of "who's a better human being, immigrants or natives?" I fully agree that on average, the American underclass is terrible and most immigrants are better people. As evidence of this, witness all the left wing types who seem to believe that the American underclass would rather sit around on welfare than do the work that illegal immigrants will no longer be doing. But that's not the question we're asking. The question we're asking is whether a new immigrant - a person we have the choice of accepting or rejecting - will be a benefit to society or a parasite upon it? Many natives suck, but we're stuck with them. Does that mean we are forever obligated to import more people who suck only slightly less? (For the record, I think the best solution is to end the welfare state and open our borders. I'm just arguing with bad reasoning.)
- mabbo 10y agoFor someone with Trump's wealth, a doubling of all food prices won't mean much, but for the rest of the country that's going to have an enormous economic impact. I get that these farm workers are technically breaking the law, but they're laws that have been knowingly not enforced for decades. I honestly think the economic shock of this is going to cause another recession.
- dukeluke 10y agoI think you're ignoring the effect this will have on lower class wages. Millions of people will replace those jobs taken by illegal immigrants, most of whom were working below minimum wage. That will tighten the labor pool of lower class jobs, and may lead to wage increases for the poorest in the country.
- megous 10y agoBy the same logic you may try to destroy some capital (machines in factories, etc.). That would also place increased demand on labor. The point is that reduction of capital or labor (in this case) does not cause increase in prosperity overall. It does not add anything to the economy, it just takes away. Even in recession, if you're getting poorer, it does not make sense to create pressures for general price increases by taking away stuff or people from the economy. It just makes your slide into poverty faster.
- dukeluke 10y agoYour argument would be true if the lower and middle classes were benefiting from the growth of the economy, but it hasn't much at all.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoLots of speculation about food prices etc. America has enough food to feed the world; Iowa grows enough to feed 2 United States. We'll not suffer. That said, if we're going to have a roundup I hope it targets the biggest illegal alien demographic - middle European males overstaying their school visa. Just to be fair, you know, the white males that are the bulk of the problem should not be overlooked.
- dukeluke 10y agoDo you have a source for your claim? I thought most illegal immigrants were from Latin America.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoStudent visas have a special dispensation - they're not listed as 'unlawful presence' until the student files for a change in status. This helps make the immigration issue appear to be mostly laborers.
- literallycancer 10y agoAnd people are working after their studies? Why don't you link some statistics?
- wiredfool 10y agoIowa can feed the country, so long as you're fine with eating field corn and unprocessed soy, with a little pork on the side.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoIowa produces half the nation's pork. Billions of kilos. And corn is used in endless food products, like it or not.
- wiredfool 10y ago
- andyjohnson0 10y agoNice catch-all in the fifth paragraph: "Additionally, regardless of the basis of removability, Department personnel should prioritize removable aliens who: [...] or (7) in the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security."
- ranko 10y ago"Public safety" is surely too important to be left to the judgment of an individual. Why not create a Committee of Public Safety (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety) to make these determinations? What could possibly go wrong?