10 ms·

Tesla factory worker calls for a union: “We need to stand up for ourselves”

123 points by pkkim 10y ago

xmonkee 10y ago
Tesla's entire marketing message is about how they are saving the planet. It's really ironic then how many times I've heard about the terrible working conditions at their factories. One cannot really trust a message about saving the planet when you don't care about the people who need the saving.
- eridius 10y ago
  I don't agree with this. I think the two are completely orthogonal. Your argument hinges on the assumption that saving the planet is strictly for the benefit of the humans living on the planet, and that seems wildly arrogant.
  - mhermher 10y ago
    Then who or what is it for? Who cares about the earth if humans don't benefit? It's just a floating rock.
    - eridius 10y ago
      How about all the rest of the incredible amount of life that we share this floating rock with?
      - strgrd 10y ago
        Well, for starters, more than half of that "life" doesn't even have thumbs, so even if that life were sentient beyond eat/fuck/kill, it couldn't pick up rocks or anything. I would say the majority of "life" on this planet is dumpster life, evolutionary mishaps that haven't yet been culled. There are more interesting animals out there, elephants, dolphins, etc., but again, thumbs.
        chillwaves 10y ago
        It's incredible to me how dismissive you are of life itself given what an incredibly, unfathomably tiny percentage of matter can be classified as alive.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - tabeth 10y ago
        I agree, but most people couldn't care less about that. Most people eat meat, use housing that's displaced huge amounts of land that animals use to inhabit, etc.
      - guard-of-terra 10y ago
        Is it still on that floating rock when there's nobody to see it? "If a tree falls in a forest"
    - lutusp 10y ago
      > Then who or what is it for? Who cares about the earth if humans don't benefit? It's just a floating rock. This is not directed at you personally, but the view that humans are all that matters is a kind of species narcissism. In fact, we derive all sorts of benefits from other species, such that if all of them were to disappear, so would we.
      - mhermher 10y ago
        Yes. I mean I am totally a species narcissist I admit. We gain a ton of benefits from other animals, obviously. But if we don't exist, then those animals no longer matter. We wouldn't benefit from them anymore. Anyway, this is getting a bit in the weeds.
  - lazaroclapp 10y ago
    Sure, except that by that metric, Tesla is a wildly inefficient venture. If your objective function is to reduce global warming, without any care about collateral damage to human quality of life, then a bioweapons company is a better choice than an electric cars one. So we have to assume that the objective function for Elon is a bit more complex than that.
- tn13 10y ago
  Makes no sense to me. Are you saying a doctor who smokes is not a good doctor ? American workers should realize that they are competing with Chinese workers who will give life and limb to work in the environment that Tesla is providing them. They should either compete or let the Chinese do the work for 1/10th of the cost instead of whining about not getting diet soda in vending machines.
  - pkkim 10y ago
    And the Chinese worker should feel lucky his job isn't shipped to Vietnam!... And the Vietnamese worker should feel lucky his job isn't shipped to Bangladesh!... And the Bangladeshi adult worker should feel lucky his job isn't given to Bangladeshi 9-year-olds!... Seriously, you are right that if wages go too high and it's convenient for the company, they will take production elsewhere. That's not an argument for workers shutting up and taking scraps; it's an argument for a global minimum wage.
    - tn13 10y ago
      Global minimum wage ? You are probably smoking some hard leftist hippie weed. Of course labor should move to places where people will be happy to take it and thank the employer. Unionisation kills jobs. I can totally see Musk having plan B to move the entire factory to Mexico sooner or later.
    - ryao 10y ago
      Or employ robots.
  - AlexandrB 10y ago
    > American workers should realize that they are competing with Chinese workers who will give life and limb to work in the environment that Tesla is providing them. They are realizing this - which is why they elected Donald Trump and his protectionist rhetoric. > They should either compete or let the Chinese do the work for 1/10th of the cost instead of whining about not getting diet soda in vending machines. "Let them eat cake."
  - chillwaves 10y ago
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  I think all public corporations should _require_ worker democracy. Democracy of our government naturally extends (with no logical inconsistency) to the publically-owned workplace. Unionization is more than a human right. A lot of negativity in here about "getting vending machine options"...how do you think we got the Weekend? By bowing down to slave-efficiency abroad? No. We need to be better than that. All publically traded companies should be unionized mandatorily. Think of it this way: should not a dictatorship be scrapped for a democracy immediately if one can do so? In this same sense, unionization is much more favorable than de facto feudalism. And our current system is feudalism with makeup. Make no mistake about that. Forget about competing with China. We can raise the standard of living here for our workers. Union bosses have a seat at the board room table in Germany, why can't we do that here? Unionization (democracy in the workplace) is not just a right, it's an essential need. And it stems from the capitalistic fallacy: "You (the worker/producer) do not control the wages." And it shows in the devastatingly large surplus value that's caused crash after crash and recession after depression and the crippling wealth gap between rich and poor.
  - hutzlibu 10y ago
    "Union bosses have a seat at the board room table in Germany" From what I heard, they are sitting so often together at the "board room table", that you can't really seperate them from the ordinary bosses ...
    - HeavenBanned 10y ago
      I would say their negotiations [1] have been fruitful. A 4.8% increase is pretty good. Contrast that with scare tactics and an absence of a union at Tesla. I'll take VW's model any day of the week. [1](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-strikes-deal-on-wages-with-german-union-2016-05-20 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-strikes-deal-on-...)
  - theandrewbailey 10y ago
    > All publically traded companies should be unionized mandatorily. I'm not against unions, but I think mandating them is a bad idea. Smells like a recipe for disaster. What if everyone's totally OK with their workplace? Government would be requiring an external (perhaps redundant) bureaucracy (with all its waste and inefficiency), supported from a cut of everyone's paycheck, regardless of whether people wanted it or not.
- mikeash 10y ago
  It would be sensible to sacrifice the well-being of a small group in order to save the whole, if it's necessary to do so. I don't think your inference makes any sense. Poor working conditions for one factory and saving the planet as a whole are different concerns. That said, I would certainly like to see them improve in this area. I'm a big fan of Tesla, but they are not without their flaws, and working conditions appear to be one of them. They should do better. Not because it somehow conflicts with their mission, but just because it's the right thing to do.
  - yarou 10y ago
    > Poor working conditions for one factory and saving the planet as a whole are different concerns. I think that's contradictory. If you are setting out to save the world, but you can't improve factory conditions for your own workers, how have you shown the capability to save the world? I'm reminded of having a strong AI agent that's given the condition "save humanity". That condition can be satisfied by having no humans on the planet to save.
    - Dylan16807 10y ago
      >how have you shown the capability It's irrelevant. Nothing you do for worker satisfaction in one factory demonstrates whether you can or cannot save the world. There is absolutely no contradiction in treating them separately. This doesn't excuse making workers unhappy, but it's really a separate issue.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Let me consider the opposite question: if you are setting out to save the world, and you can improve factory conditions for your own workers, how have you shown the capability to save the world? It's just not relevant. It's a non sequitur. It's "A is bad, B is good, you're doing A, therefore you can't do B."
    - cderwin 10y ago
      It is most certainly not contradictory. For example, one could make the argument that the allied effort against the Nazis in WWII was tantamount to "saving the world", yet the allied forces certainly didn't treat everyone in the most humane way possible -- see Japanese internment in the US, or the presumable "war crimes" that Allied forces committed in WWII. Yet that doesn't mean Allied forces weren't capable of destroying the Axis, which obviously is what happened. A similar argument could be made about the Cold War and McCarthyism. It is simply nonsensical to mistake the goal of "saving the world" with the goal of "don't ever treat anyone slightly questionably ever again".
- kbenson 10y ago
  It's all about where you put the horizon in your short-term thinking. It's sort of like refusing to have your army defend against an invasion because some of your soldiers may die, when you're pretty sure the invaders are going to kill more people than that anyway if not stopped. If Tesla's management really believes they are changing the world and having a non-negligible impact, then they might easily justify to themselves that while they aren't the most benevolent of employers, they make up for it with what they do. The problem is that a) people may not even agree their goal is beneficial, or b) accepting the prior as true may not agree the degree to which their actions are beneficial in the end, or c) accepting both the prior as true may not care because those actions may disproportionately affect the person in question. In any case, I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be.
- trome 10y ago
  Yeah, Tesla is here to make money above all else, and they're gonna do as much time theft as they can, likely putting Amazon, Walmart & McDonalds to shame. Shit must be real bad over there if they are attempting to unionize, if you notice the only places that still have a union in the US in spite of union busting are where the employer has made it an absolute living nightmare to work, hence the union to back the workers up.
  - foota 10y ago
    Yes, public schools are just awful /s
    - trome 10y ago
      You gotta educate 30+ children (some with special needs who likely aren't getting the assistance they are legally entitled to), the school administration, testing & overview policies (which treat teachers as totally incompetent here in the US) and deal with the kids parents to top it off. Each of those factors alone can make for a bad work environment, combined it is a living nightmare. Plus the pay is very low, so its not as though you are able to afford much.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - kevinnk 10y ago
    Few people who would describe working as a teacher, an airline pilot, or a professional athlete as a "living nightmare".
    - trome 10y ago
      Sure, few people may describe those jobs as a living nightmare, but most people have no first hand experience at working any of those jobs. I'd never want to do any of those jobs, all three of them have positively awful working conditions, with the last usually resulting in lifelong mental damage from repeated jarring of the head (in addition to injuries), and most school districts & airlines push their teachers and pilots to the edge of the law, whether it be student load (and putting special needs students in classes with overloaded teachers illegally), or leaning on pilots to fly with the absolute minimum fuel they can get by with, despite regulations.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  A friend working over at spacex told me of the horrors there as well. Despite the love he gets here, Musk appears to be one of those nightmare bosses from the bad old days, the type that has not heard about peopleware and would scoff if he did.
- danielahn 10y ago
  Do you have any 'good' sources on other complaints about working conditions? Honest question, quick google search gives me a number of results but nothing that seems to have meaningful follow-up of any sort.
  - xiphias 10y ago
    I thought of applying to Tesla as a software engineer, but after reading through Glassdoor reviews, I decided it's not worth to destroy my life, even if it's an amazing company in what it will hopefully achieve (and not so amazing in how it treats workers)
pkkim 10y ago
tl;dr Worker at the Tesla plant in Fremont, CA wants a union at the plant. There are a lot of grievances, including: health and safety; questionably legal attempts to stop workers from organizing; low pay; long hours; management that doesn't listen.
tn13 10y ago
Such evil management ? They should move to Mexico from Fremont.
- chefkoch 10y ago
  could you leave stuff like that at reddit?
  - tn13 10y ago
    Are you suggesting that my dissenting opinions are not welcome on HN because you do not agree with them? I am only pointing out that the demands like these make it more attractive for the management to move to countries where they are welcomed!
    - yarrel 10y ago
      You are not only pointing that out. You are defending it in an emotive way. Just sayin'. ;-)
    - esterly 10y ago
      DH4 and above on this outline the more likely to engage (and avoid getting mod'd down) http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html "Counterargument is contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence. When aimed squarely at the original argument, it can be convincing."
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sctb 10y ago
  We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13609988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13609988.
yanilkr 10y ago
Why cant the workers create a forum and a bug tracking system and write their concerns and let everyone up-vote it and get the management to address them. Organizing is so easy and transparent with technology. You do not have to use old-fashioned politically motivated words like "workers union"
- rvail2 10y ago
  "so easy and transparent" Maybe for you, but perhaps not everyone has your experience. Unions have there place, even today.
  - yanilkr 10y ago
    yes exactly. the unions can be on the cloud.
- walshemj 10y ago
  unfortunately this will lead to retaliation against those organising employers are not above hireling shady organisations to break unions - who would have no compunctions in hacking such an online system.
  - tammer 10y ago
    Yes retaliation would be swift here, or the concerns would be bluntly ignored - this is why union organizing is a skilled effort and not something that can be fixed via algorithm.
  - VikingCoder 10y ago
    ...which is why unions depend on customers organizing a boycott.
- VikingCoder 10y ago
  You're assuming management is unaware of the problems, and is of their own intention wanting to fix the problems. That's not necessarily the case. Managers often get bonuses for achieving goals that are only possible by treating workers poorly. Until there is negative reinforcement for that (union walkout), there's not much motivation to change things.
lutusp 10y ago
The workers should feel free to form a union -- this is a fundamental right. The risk is that management will increase the number of robots in an already highly automated factory, eventually replacing all the humans. Then the robots will form a union.
- yarrel 10y ago
  Robot union API would be a great project for a future YC application. ;-)
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    This is so true. You will think that robots do not strike, until this day when you forget to renew your license with robot-maker.
- falcolas 10y ago
  That risk exists irregardless of the formation of a union. Automation of mundane physical tasks is just that much cheaper than manual labor over the long run.
  - WillPostForFood 10y ago
    Risk is a spectrum. The higher the wage the more incentive to automate. It is not always cheaper to automate, but if you push wages above that point... note: irregardless is not a word, it is just regardless
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      That seems like a recipe for progress to me. Encouraging automation is better than denying it exists.
- walshemj 10y ago
  Now imagining bender or data (start treck) as a union activist :-)
synaesthesisx 10y ago
It's likely that their long term vision will entail a fully-automated production line (similar to Amazon's logistics goals). In fact it's necessary to churn out units fast enough to hit their production goals. Their recent acquisitions in the factory automation (Grohmann Engineering, etc) will ultimately help alleviate these workers complaints, but perhaps at the expense of their jobs... That said, there's no excuse for treating employees poorly, even if they're "temporary"...whether it's Tesla, Apple, or Amazon.
- khana 10y ago
  Reach out to the UAW. Ouch. What needs to happen is increase the wages in the interim then seek to fully automate in 5 yrs. And THEN, we're all ready for Model T[erminator]s to start rolling down the line autonomously.
- walshemj 10y ago
  A robot fully capable of replacing a human worker is along way off car plants are always at the cutting edge of automation
  - synaesthesisx 10y ago
    However, if you look at their manufacturing approach at Gigafactory 1 and the incredible amount of automation there (machines building machines) it's clear they're treating the factory as a modular, scaleable product than a traditional manufacturing facility. I suspect they intend to do something similar with the Model III - design a product/production line with automation in mind from the ground-up. The barebones interior of the new vehicle comes to mind...
- omouse 10y ago
  will ultimately help alleviate these workers complaints, but perhaps at the expense of their jobs definitely at the expense of their jobs. capital/owners get to keep all the earnings, the workers get nothing. this is why it's important for workers to be part of co-operatives or to have profit-sharing or more equity or shares.
kneel 10y ago
It's hard to feel passionate about this either way for me. Yes workers should be able to unionize for their own benefit but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. The company is at a crucial moment, they're about to scale up for their first consumer priced car. This is the first time I've ever heard of discontent from Tesla factory workers. It seems very calculated, but at the same time I have no knowledge of working conditions.
- S_A_P 10y ago
  This is my instinct as well. The timing, tone and language of this feels pretty scripted here. I don't care if Tesla unionizes or not, but they may just trade one set of problems for another if they do.
- danielahn 10y ago
  > but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual I don't think you really believe that - if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well?
  - kneel 10y ago
    I actually do believe it and that's why I reserved a model 3. Maybe I just bought into their rhetoric, maybe. But I believe that the company's vision is more directed at sustainable transportation rather than profit. They have worked really hard and brought in a lot of investment working towards an electric car. If Musk was truly profit driven he could have made a lot more money, a lot faster by directing his energy elsewhere.
    - blub 10y ago
      Reserving a model 3 is pretty weak. If you really believe in them you should work 12 hour shifts in one of their factories, making the dream happen and saving the planet.
      - 10y ago
gruglife 10y ago
I took a tour of the tesla factory and our tour guide (who was a factory worker) said all factory workers are free to join the UAW. He said most don't because tesla has better wages and benefits. Guess he was blowing smoke up our asses????
- shepardrtc 10y ago
  Not necessarily. This is just an article by some random person on Medium. It may not be legit.
andrewtbham 10y ago
Seems pointless to me... on their conference calls they say that by 2018 no one will touch the cars... it will all be built by robots. the model 3 is designed with automated general assembly in mind (hence the big open roof).
omouse 10y ago
WOW. I'm impressed! :D
cjensen 10y ago
Part of the complaint remarks that since the Tesla plant is located in an expensive area, the workers need more money. They might want to rethink the wisdom of that comment: that's a great argument to move the plant to Tennessee. Or Nevada.
- redthrowaway 10y ago
  There's a reason all of the Rust Belt manufacturing moved to the South East, and it ain't the weather. Who'd have thought that low taxes and right to work laws would lead to economic expansion, and their opposite would lead to contraction?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- briholt 10y ago
  Last I heard the Reno Gigafactory is still half empty. Tons of land and cheap housing. No income tax.
- droithomme 10y ago
  Absolutely amazing that's what you see. Tesla shareholder, friend? His main complain is mandatory overtime, bad production flow, dangerous working conditions, frequent injuries, and management refuses to listen to feedback. In short, it's a dangerous irresponsible sweatshop from the 19th century. Will moving the plant to Tennessee or Nevada help because you believe there are no federal labor regulations or safety considerations in those states?
  - cjensen 10y ago
    Edited: Removed insufficiently polite comments I live in Fremont. The Tesla plant is our #1 employer and I'd really like to keep it. I'm suggesting that the employee stick to arguments that makes sense to everyone (work causing physical harm) and which are in Tesla's interest to fix. Keep away from arguments which are little more than "you should move away." I remember the GM plant closing. I don't want to see a repeat.
shepardrtc 10y ago
Has anyone actually verified this? Its a random person writing on Medium, and its their only article.
- steego 10y ago
  Are you under the impression Tesla employees would have been blogging on Medium about working conditions before unionizing? I don't see why this wouldn't be an actual Tesla employee (I'm open to theories), and assuming it is because this is the sort of thing an employee would do while consulting with the UAW.
- kesor 10y ago
  How about this being a union rep from another car company who is afraid for his job?
coupdetaco 10y ago
4 of my roommates work at Tesla and they all either underreport their hours by about 20% (work 60/week, report 50) or complain about their direct reports leaning on them to do so. It's really toxic! Tesla should be able to do well without stealing from their imported Canadian interns.
- marricks 10y ago
  Should they? They're trying to disrupt a hundred year old industry which has used that time to gain efficiency and acquire a stable workforce. Not to mention, many car companies _mainly_ build their luxury and more expensive models in the US. Perhaps the calculus is Tesla has to bank on it's next to get motivated workers and push them to make their production goals. I mean, if I didn't have a fun programming career I might be tempted to help them build cars since working with my hands sounds fun, and so does being a part of Tesla. That being said, does it make it fair? Is it exploitation if the claims are true? Course it isn't fair. I think the best case is Tesla makes a boat load of money selling model 3's and is able to invest in paying it's workforce well, which feels like a pretty crumby thing to hope for since I care a lot about workers rights :/
- marricks 10y ago
  Should they? They're trying to disrupt a hundred year old industry which has used that time to gain efficiency and acquire a stable workforce. Not to mention, many car companies _mainly_ build their luxury and more expensive models in the US. They use cheaper labor elsewhere for other models. Perhaps the calculus is Tesla has to bank on it's next to get motivated workers and push them to make their production goals. I mean, if I didn't have a fun programming career I might be tempted to help them build cars since working with my hands sounds fun, and so does being a part of Tesla. That being said, does it make it fair? Is it exploitation if the claims are true? Course it isn't fair. I think the best case is Tesla makes a boat load of money selling model 3's and is able to invest in paying it's workforce well, which feels like a pretty crumby thing to hope for since I care a lot about workers rights :/
leothekim 10y ago
Reading this: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/8/13561146/tesla-acquisition-grohmann-automation-production http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/8/13561146/tesla-acquisition... Makes me wonder where this will lead for the workers.
D-Coder 10y ago
"Recently, every worker was required to sign a confidentiality policy that threatens consequences if we exercise our right to speak out about wages and working conditions." If that's true, it's outrageous.
- pkkim 10y ago
  http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Tesla-employee-speaks-out-about-safety-at-10921154.php http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Tesla-employee-speaks... "Last month, five members of the Assembly wrote a letter to Tesla CEO Elon Musk referring to the confidentiality pledge and expressing concerns that the breadth of the agreement “impermissibly violates protected employee activity under state and federal law, including the right to communicate to each other and the public about wages, working conditions and other issues.” The members asked Tesla to revise the policy."
pkkim 10y ago
Why is this on the third page when there are stories on the second page with fewer points and posted before this one? At least in December 2015, ranking was a function of those two things: https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-hacker-news-ranking-algorithm-works-1d9b0cf2c08d https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-hacker-news-ranking... Update: Page 4 as of a few minutes ago: http://imgur.com/a/M6XuC http://imgur.com/a/M6XuC
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- omouse 10y ago
  Yep, that's what I just noticed too. Interesting how a story about unionization gets pushed down. It will be interesting to see if any tech news sites pick up on this story at all. It seems like anything to do with labour/unions gets ignored.
- granfalloon 10y ago
  Also noticed that and was disappointed. What else goes into the rankings apart from points & time? Edit: Now page 6: http://imgur.com/3CAfOnT http://imgur.com/3CAfOnT. (Look at the points/times of the stories above and below it...)
- Steko 10y ago
  Rankings are also affected by the amount of comments and downvoting but when you see a story that should be on Page 1 on page 7 (at the moment) it seems overwhelmingly likely that it's flag abuse, in this case by the musk worshippers.
omouse 10y ago
very interesting that this story is very popular but doesn't seem to appear on the frontpage of hacker news? can any of the mods address how that works and on which page this story appears?
grzm 10y ago
Title has been editorialized. Actual title: Time for Tesla to Listen
kesor 10y ago
Just to think that only a decade ago, at the same exact plant in Fremont, California there was a different story about a car company. A story how Toyota's culture was the anti-culture for the toxic GM culture and their unions. Well worth to listen a couple of minutes to a short history lesson regarding this place https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/...

123 points by pkkim 10y ago

Tesla's entire marketing message is about how they are saving the planet. It's really ironic then how many times I've heard about the terrible working conditions at their factories. One cannot really trust a message about saving the planet when you don't care about the people who need the saving.

eridius 10y ago
I don't agree with this. I think the two are completely orthogonal. Your argument hinges on the assumption that saving the planet is strictly for the benefit of the humans living on the planet, and that seems wildly arrogant.
- mhermher 10y ago
  Then who or what is it for? Who cares about the earth if humans don't benefit? It's just a floating rock.
  - eridius 10y ago
    How about all the rest of the incredible amount of life that we share this floating rock with?
    - strgrd 10y ago
      Well, for starters, more than half of that "life" doesn't even have thumbs, so even if that life were sentient beyond eat/fuck/kill, it couldn't pick up rocks or anything. I would say the majority of "life" on this planet is dumpster life, evolutionary mishaps that haven't yet been culled. There are more interesting animals out there, elephants, dolphins, etc., but again, thumbs.
      - chillwaves 10y ago
        It's incredible to me how dismissive you are of life itself given what an incredibly, unfathomably tiny percentage of matter can be classified as alive.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - tabeth 10y ago
      I agree, but most people couldn't care less about that. Most people eat meat, use housing that's displaced huge amounts of land that animals use to inhabit, etc.
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      Is it still on that floating rock when there's nobody to see it? "If a tree falls in a forest"
  - lutusp 10y ago
    > Then who or what is it for? Who cares about the earth if humans don't benefit? It's just a floating rock. This is not directed at you personally, but the view that humans are all that matters is a kind of species narcissism. In fact, we derive all sorts of benefits from other species, such that if all of them were to disappear, so would we.
    - mhermher 10y ago
      Yes. I mean I am totally a species narcissist I admit. We gain a ton of benefits from other animals, obviously. But if we don't exist, then those animals no longer matter. We wouldn't benefit from them anymore. Anyway, this is getting a bit in the weeds.
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  Sure, except that by that metric, Tesla is a wildly inefficient venture. If your objective function is to reduce global warming, without any care about collateral damage to human quality of life, then a bioweapons company is a better choice than an electric cars one. So we have to assume that the objective function for Elon is a bit more complex than that.
tn13 10y ago
Makes no sense to me. Are you saying a doctor who smokes is not a good doctor ? American workers should realize that they are competing with Chinese workers who will give life and limb to work in the environment that Tesla is providing them. They should either compete or let the Chinese do the work for 1/10th of the cost instead of whining about not getting diet soda in vending machines.
- pkkim 10y ago
  And the Chinese worker should feel lucky his job isn't shipped to Vietnam!... And the Vietnamese worker should feel lucky his job isn't shipped to Bangladesh!... And the Bangladeshi adult worker should feel lucky his job isn't given to Bangladeshi 9-year-olds!... Seriously, you are right that if wages go too high and it's convenient for the company, they will take production elsewhere. That's not an argument for workers shutting up and taking scraps; it's an argument for a global minimum wage.
  - tn13 10y ago
    Global minimum wage ? You are probably smoking some hard leftist hippie weed. Of course labor should move to places where people will be happy to take it and thank the employer. Unionisation kills jobs. I can totally see Musk having plan B to move the entire factory to Mexico sooner or later.
  - ryao 10y ago
    Or employ robots.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  > American workers should realize that they are competing with Chinese workers who will give life and limb to work in the environment that Tesla is providing them. They are realizing this - which is why they elected Donald Trump and his protectionist rhetoric. > They should either compete or let the Chinese do the work for 1/10th of the cost instead of whining about not getting diet soda in vending machines. "Let them eat cake."
- chillwaves 10y ago
HeavenBanned 10y ago
I think all public corporations should _require_ worker democracy. Democracy of our government naturally extends (with no logical inconsistency) to the publically-owned workplace. Unionization is more than a human right. A lot of negativity in here about "getting vending machine options"...how do you think we got the Weekend? By bowing down to slave-efficiency abroad? No. We need to be better than that. All publically traded companies should be unionized mandatorily. Think of it this way: should not a dictatorship be scrapped for a democracy immediately if one can do so? In this same sense, unionization is much more favorable than de facto feudalism. And our current system is feudalism with makeup. Make no mistake about that. Forget about competing with China. We can raise the standard of living here for our workers. Union bosses have a seat at the board room table in Germany, why can't we do that here? Unionization (democracy in the workplace) is not just a right, it's an essential need. And it stems from the capitalistic fallacy: "You (the worker/producer) do not control the wages." And it shows in the devastatingly large surplus value that's caused crash after crash and recession after depression and the crippling wealth gap between rich and poor.
- hutzlibu 10y ago
  "Union bosses have a seat at the board room table in Germany" From what I heard, they are sitting so often together at the "board room table", that you can't really seperate them from the ordinary bosses ...
  - HeavenBanned 10y ago
    I would say their negotiations [1] have been fruitful. A 4.8% increase is pretty good. Contrast that with scare tactics and an absence of a union at Tesla. I'll take VW's model any day of the week. [1](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-strikes-deal-on-wages-with-german-union-2016-05-20 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-strikes-deal-on-...)
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  > All publically traded companies should be unionized mandatorily. I'm not against unions, but I think mandating them is a bad idea. Smells like a recipe for disaster. What if everyone's totally OK with their workplace? Government would be requiring an external (perhaps redundant) bureaucracy (with all its waste and inefficiency), supported from a cut of everyone's paycheck, regardless of whether people wanted it or not.
mikeash 10y ago
It would be sensible to sacrifice the well-being of a small group in order to save the whole, if it's necessary to do so. I don't think your inference makes any sense. Poor working conditions for one factory and saving the planet as a whole are different concerns. That said, I would certainly like to see them improve in this area. I'm a big fan of Tesla, but they are not without their flaws, and working conditions appear to be one of them. They should do better. Not because it somehow conflicts with their mission, but just because it's the right thing to do.
- yarou 10y ago
  > Poor working conditions for one factory and saving the planet as a whole are different concerns. I think that's contradictory. If you are setting out to save the world, but you can't improve factory conditions for your own workers, how have you shown the capability to save the world? I'm reminded of having a strong AI agent that's given the condition "save humanity". That condition can be satisfied by having no humans on the planet to save.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    >how have you shown the capability It's irrelevant. Nothing you do for worker satisfaction in one factory demonstrates whether you can or cannot save the world. There is absolutely no contradiction in treating them separately. This doesn't excuse making workers unhappy, but it's really a separate issue.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Let me consider the opposite question: if you are setting out to save the world, and you can improve factory conditions for your own workers, how have you shown the capability to save the world? It's just not relevant. It's a non sequitur. It's "A is bad, B is good, you're doing A, therefore you can't do B."
  - cderwin 10y ago
    It is most certainly not contradictory. For example, one could make the argument that the allied effort against the Nazis in WWII was tantamount to "saving the world", yet the allied forces certainly didn't treat everyone in the most humane way possible -- see Japanese internment in the US, or the presumable "war crimes" that Allied forces committed in WWII. Yet that doesn't mean Allied forces weren't capable of destroying the Axis, which obviously is what happened. A similar argument could be made about the Cold War and McCarthyism. It is simply nonsensical to mistake the goal of "saving the world" with the goal of "don't ever treat anyone slightly questionably ever again".
kbenson 10y ago
It's all about where you put the horizon in your short-term thinking. It's sort of like refusing to have your army defend against an invasion because some of your soldiers may die, when you're pretty sure the invaders are going to kill more people than that anyway if not stopped. If Tesla's management really believes they are changing the world and having a non-negligible impact, then they might easily justify to themselves that while they aren't the most benevolent of employers, they make up for it with what they do. The problem is that a) people may not even agree their goal is beneficial, or b) accepting the prior as true may not agree the degree to which their actions are beneficial in the end, or c) accepting both the prior as true may not care because those actions may disproportionately affect the person in question. In any case, I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be.
trome 10y ago
Yeah, Tesla is here to make money above all else, and they're gonna do as much time theft as they can, likely putting Amazon, Walmart & McDonalds to shame. Shit must be real bad over there if they are attempting to unionize, if you notice the only places that still have a union in the US in spite of union busting are where the employer has made it an absolute living nightmare to work, hence the union to back the workers up.
- foota 10y ago
  Yes, public schools are just awful /s
  - trome 10y ago
    You gotta educate 30+ children (some with special needs who likely aren't getting the assistance they are legally entitled to), the school administration, testing & overview policies (which treat teachers as totally incompetent here in the US) and deal with the kids parents to top it off. Each of those factors alone can make for a bad work environment, combined it is a living nightmare. Plus the pay is very low, so its not as though you are able to afford much.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- kevinnk 10y ago
  Few people who would describe working as a teacher, an airline pilot, or a professional athlete as a "living nightmare".
  - trome 10y ago
    Sure, few people may describe those jobs as a living nightmare, but most people have no first hand experience at working any of those jobs. I'd never want to do any of those jobs, all three of them have positively awful working conditions, with the last usually resulting in lifelong mental damage from repeated jarring of the head (in addition to injuries), and most school districts & airlines push their teachers and pilots to the edge of the law, whether it be student load (and putting special needs students in classes with overloaded teachers illegally), or leaning on pilots to fly with the absolute minimum fuel they can get by with, despite regulations.
mixmastamyk 10y ago
A friend working over at spacex told me of the horrors there as well. Despite the love he gets here, Musk appears to be one of those nightmare bosses from the bad old days, the type that has not heard about peopleware and would scoff if he did.
danielahn 10y ago
Do you have any 'good' sources on other complaints about working conditions? Honest question, quick google search gives me a number of results but nothing that seems to have meaningful follow-up of any sort.
- xiphias 10y ago
  I thought of applying to Tesla as a software engineer, but after reading through Glassdoor reviews, I decided it's not worth to destroy my life, even if it's an amazing company in what it will hopefully achieve (and not so amazing in how it treats workers)

pkkim 10y ago

tl;dr Worker at the Tesla plant in Fremont, CA wants a union at the plant. There are a lot of grievances, including: health and safety; questionably legal attempts to stop workers from organizing; low pay; long hours; management that doesn't listen.

tn13 10y ago

Such evil management ? They should move to Mexico from Fremont.

chefkoch 10y ago
could you leave stuff like that at reddit?
- tn13 10y ago
  Are you suggesting that my dissenting opinions are not welcome on HN because you do not agree with them? I am only pointing out that the demands like these make it more attractive for the management to move to countries where they are welcomed!
  - yarrel 10y ago
    You are not only pointing that out. You are defending it in an emotive way. Just sayin'. ;-)
  - esterly 10y ago
    DH4 and above on this outline the more likely to engage (and avoid getting mod'd down) http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html "Counterargument is contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence. When aimed squarely at the original argument, it can be convincing."
deleted 10y ago
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sctb 10y ago
We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13609988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13609988.

yanilkr 10y ago

Why cant the workers create a forum and a bug tracking system and write their concerns and let everyone up-vote it and get the management to address them. Organizing is so easy and transparent with technology. You do not have to use old-fashioned politically motivated words like "workers union"

rvail2 10y ago
"so easy and transparent" Maybe for you, but perhaps not everyone has your experience. Unions have there place, even today.
- yanilkr 10y ago
  yes exactly. the unions can be on the cloud.
walshemj 10y ago
unfortunately this will lead to retaliation against those organising employers are not above hireling shady organisations to break unions - who would have no compunctions in hacking such an online system.
- tammer 10y ago
  Yes retaliation would be swift here, or the concerns would be bluntly ignored - this is why union organizing is a skilled effort and not something that can be fixed via algorithm.
- VikingCoder 10y ago
  ...which is why unions depend on customers organizing a boycott.
VikingCoder 10y ago
You're assuming management is unaware of the problems, and is of their own intention wanting to fix the problems. That's not necessarily the case. Managers often get bonuses for achieving goals that are only possible by treating workers poorly. Until there is negative reinforcement for that (union walkout), there's not much motivation to change things.

lutusp 10y ago

The workers should feel free to form a union -- this is a fundamental right. The risk is that management will increase the number of robots in an already highly automated factory, eventually replacing all the humans. Then the robots will form a union.

yarrel 10y ago
Robot union API would be a great project for a future YC application. ;-)
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  This is so true. You will think that robots do not strike, until this day when you forget to renew your license with robot-maker.
falcolas 10y ago
That risk exists irregardless of the formation of a union. Automation of mundane physical tasks is just that much cheaper than manual labor over the long run.
- WillPostForFood 10y ago
  Risk is a spectrum. The higher the wage the more incentive to automate. It is not always cheaper to automate, but if you push wages above that point... note: irregardless is not a word, it is just regardless
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    That seems like a recipe for progress to me. Encouraging automation is better than denying it exists.
walshemj 10y ago
Now imagining bender or data (start treck) as a union activist :-)

synaesthesisx 10y ago

It's likely that their long term vision will entail a fully-automated production line (similar to Amazon's logistics goals). In fact it's necessary to churn out units fast enough to hit their production goals. Their recent acquisitions in the factory automation (Grohmann Engineering, etc) will ultimately help alleviate these workers complaints, but perhaps at the expense of their jobs... That said, there's no excuse for treating employees poorly, even if they're "temporary"...whether it's Tesla, Apple, or Amazon.

khana 10y ago
Reach out to the UAW. Ouch. What needs to happen is increase the wages in the interim then seek to fully automate in 5 yrs. And THEN, we're all ready for Model T[erminator]s to start rolling down the line autonomously.
walshemj 10y ago
A robot fully capable of replacing a human worker is along way off car plants are always at the cutting edge of automation
- synaesthesisx 10y ago
  However, if you look at their manufacturing approach at Gigafactory 1 and the incredible amount of automation there (machines building machines) it's clear they're treating the factory as a modular, scaleable product than a traditional manufacturing facility. I suspect they intend to do something similar with the Model III - design a product/production line with automation in mind from the ground-up. The barebones interior of the new vehicle comes to mind...
omouse 10y ago
will ultimately help alleviate these workers complaints, but perhaps at the expense of their jobs definitely at the expense of their jobs. capital/owners get to keep all the earnings, the workers get nothing. this is why it's important for workers to be part of co-operatives or to have profit-sharing or more equity or shares.

kneel 10y ago

It's hard to feel passionate about this either way for me. Yes workers should be able to unionize for their own benefit but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. The company is at a crucial moment, they're about to scale up for their first consumer priced car. This is the first time I've ever heard of discontent from Tesla factory workers. It seems very calculated, but at the same time I have no knowledge of working conditions.

S_A_P 10y ago
This is my instinct as well. The timing, tone and language of this feels pretty scripted here. I don't care if Tesla unionizes or not, but they may just trade one set of problems for another if they do.
danielahn 10y ago
> but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual I don't think you really believe that - if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well?
- kneel 10y ago
  I actually do believe it and that's why I reserved a model 3. Maybe I just bought into their rhetoric, maybe. But I believe that the company's vision is more directed at sustainable transportation rather than profit. They have worked really hard and brought in a lot of investment working towards an electric car. If Musk was truly profit driven he could have made a lot more money, a lot faster by directing his energy elsewhere.
  - blub 10y ago
    Reserving a model 3 is pretty weak. If you really believe in them you should work 12 hour shifts in one of their factories, making the dream happen and saving the planet.
    - 10y ago

gruglife 10y ago

I took a tour of the tesla factory and our tour guide (who was a factory worker) said all factory workers are free to join the UAW. He said most don't because tesla has better wages and benefits. Guess he was blowing smoke up our asses????

shepardrtc 10y ago
Not necessarily. This is just an article by some random person on Medium. It may not be legit.

andrewtbham 10y ago

Seems pointless to me... on their conference calls they say that by 2018 no one will touch the cars... it will all be built by robots. the model 3 is designed with automated general assembly in mind (hence the big open roof).

omouse 10y ago

WOW. I'm impressed! :D

cjensen 10y ago

Part of the complaint remarks that since the Tesla plant is located in an expensive area, the workers need more money. They might want to rethink the wisdom of that comment: that's a great argument to move the plant to Tennessee. Or Nevada.

redthrowaway 10y ago
There's a reason all of the Rust Belt manufacturing moved to the South East, and it ain't the weather. Who'd have thought that low taxes and right to work laws would lead to economic expansion, and their opposite would lead to contraction?
- deleted 10y ago
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briholt 10y ago
Last I heard the Reno Gigafactory is still half empty. Tons of land and cheap housing. No income tax.
droithomme 10y ago
Absolutely amazing that's what you see. Tesla shareholder, friend? His main complain is mandatory overtime, bad production flow, dangerous working conditions, frequent injuries, and management refuses to listen to feedback. In short, it's a dangerous irresponsible sweatshop from the 19th century. Will moving the plant to Tennessee or Nevada help because you believe there are no federal labor regulations or safety considerations in those states?
- cjensen 10y ago
  Edited: Removed insufficiently polite comments I live in Fremont. The Tesla plant is our #1 employer and I'd really like to keep it. I'm suggesting that the employee stick to arguments that makes sense to everyone (work causing physical harm) and which are in Tesla's interest to fix. Keep away from arguments which are little more than "you should move away." I remember the GM plant closing. I don't want to see a repeat.

shepardrtc 10y ago

Has anyone actually verified this? Its a random person writing on Medium, and its their only article.

steego 10y ago
Are you under the impression Tesla employees would have been blogging on Medium about working conditions before unionizing? I don't see why this wouldn't be an actual Tesla employee (I'm open to theories), and assuming it is because this is the sort of thing an employee would do while consulting with the UAW.
kesor 10y ago
How about this being a union rep from another car company who is afraid for his job?

coupdetaco 10y ago

4 of my roommates work at Tesla and they all either underreport their hours by about 20% (work 60/week, report 50) or complain about their direct reports leaning on them to do so. It's really toxic! Tesla should be able to do well without stealing from their imported Canadian interns.

marricks 10y ago
Should they? They're trying to disrupt a hundred year old industry which has used that time to gain efficiency and acquire a stable workforce. Not to mention, many car companies _mainly_ build their luxury and more expensive models in the US. Perhaps the calculus is Tesla has to bank on it's next to get motivated workers and push them to make their production goals. I mean, if I didn't have a fun programming career I might be tempted to help them build cars since working with my hands sounds fun, and so does being a part of Tesla. That being said, does it make it fair? Is it exploitation if the claims are true? Course it isn't fair. I think the best case is Tesla makes a boat load of money selling model 3's and is able to invest in paying it's workforce well, which feels like a pretty crumby thing to hope for since I care a lot about workers rights :/
marricks 10y ago
Should they? They're trying to disrupt a hundred year old industry which has used that time to gain efficiency and acquire a stable workforce. Not to mention, many car companies _mainly_ build their luxury and more expensive models in the US. They use cheaper labor elsewhere for other models. Perhaps the calculus is Tesla has to bank on it's next to get motivated workers and push them to make their production goals. I mean, if I didn't have a fun programming career I might be tempted to help them build cars since working with my hands sounds fun, and so does being a part of Tesla. That being said, does it make it fair? Is it exploitation if the claims are true? Course it isn't fair. I think the best case is Tesla makes a boat load of money selling model 3's and is able to invest in paying it's workforce well, which feels like a pretty crumby thing to hope for since I care a lot about workers rights :/

leothekim 10y ago

Reading this: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/8/13561146/tesla-acquisition-grohmann-automation-production http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/8/13561146/tesla-acquisition... Makes me wonder where this will lead for the workers.

D-Coder 10y ago

"Recently, every worker was required to sign a confidentiality policy that threatens consequences if we exercise our right to speak out about wages and working conditions." If that's true, it's outrageous.

pkkim 10y ago
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Tesla-employee-speaks-out-about-safety-at-10921154.php http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Tesla-employee-speaks... "Last month, five members of the Assembly wrote a letter to Tesla CEO Elon Musk referring to the confidentiality pledge and expressing concerns that the breadth of the agreement “impermissibly violates protected employee activity under state and federal law, including the right to communicate to each other and the public about wages, working conditions and other issues.” The members asked Tesla to revise the policy."

pkkim 10y ago

Why is this on the third page when there are stories on the second page with fewer points and posted before this one? At least in December 2015, ranking was a function of those two things: https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-hacker-news-ranking-algorithm-works-1d9b0cf2c08d https://medium.com/hacking-and-gonzo/how-hacker-news-ranking... Update: Page 4 as of a few minutes ago: http://imgur.com/a/M6XuC http://imgur.com/a/M6XuC

deleted 10y ago
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omouse 10y ago
Yep, that's what I just noticed too. Interesting how a story about unionization gets pushed down. It will be interesting to see if any tech news sites pick up on this story at all. It seems like anything to do with labour/unions gets ignored.
granfalloon 10y ago
Also noticed that and was disappointed. What else goes into the rankings apart from points & time? Edit: Now page 6: http://imgur.com/3CAfOnT http://imgur.com/3CAfOnT. (Look at the points/times of the stories above and below it...)
Steko 10y ago
Rankings are also affected by the amount of comments and downvoting but when you see a story that should be on Page 1 on page 7 (at the moment) it seems overwhelmingly likely that it's flag abuse, in this case by the musk worshippers.

omouse 10y ago

very interesting that this story is very popular but doesn't seem to appear on the frontpage of hacker news? can any of the mods address how that works and on which page this story appears?

grzm 10y ago

Title has been editorialized. Actual title: Time for Tesla to Listen

kesor 10y ago

Just to think that only a decade ago, at the same exact plant in Fremont, California there was a different story about a car company. A story how Toyota's culture was the anti-culture for the toxic GM culture and their unions. Well worth to listen a couple of minutes to a short history lesson regarding this place https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/...