7 ms·

I don't have a lot of sympathy for this man's problems. When you're making your billions from the corruption in the Chinese state, you run the risk of ending up

I don't have a lot of sympathy for this man's problems. When you're making your billions from the corruption in the Chinese state, you run the risk of ending up on the wrong side of it. It's no different than any other organized crime. I will be very surprised if Canada does or says anything of significance, given that these people are politically unpopular and causing issues for British Columbia. China has all the power here. The best I imagine he will get is a diplomat to issue a strongly worded protest that has no teeth.

iaw 10y ago
> Mr. Xiao’s fortunes rose after his graduation from the university in 1990, where he had been head of the official student organization and stayed loyal to the government during the pro-democracy demonstrations in 1989. This guy is Canadian and Antiguan in name only, he's Chinese-born and trying to use his resources to escape the government that created his wealth. Of all the human rights/border violations that China commits, this isn't a good poster child.
- rbcgerard 10y ago
  and by that you mean he's only LEGALLY Canadian and Antiguan...
  - iaw 10y ago
    No, I meant what I wrote. He holds properties in Canada, and has diplomatic status from Antigua, but they were purchased and he hasn't shown loyalties to those countries. He didn't take up actual residency in either of the countries, he used their names to suit his international agenda.
    - rbcgerard 10y ago
      How can you asses if has "shown loyalty" to a country? What does residency have to do with anything?
      - iaw 10y ago
        What are an individuals demonstrated motivations for emigrating? If not residency, then what does the individual want from the country and what will they provide back to the country in return? A resident, theoretically, contributes to the community through more means than just their taxes. If an individual jumps citizenship as financial protection, or protection from their origin countries investigations into the money they acquired in that country, than their motives for being a citizen isn't loyalty but wealth preservation. Individuals that use Canada as an asset parking lot wont get much, if any, aid from the Canadian government in events like these. They don't deserve it. I'm happier in a world where the ultra-rich don't benefit hugely from paying Canada to launder their money.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  That's probably why they forcibly moved him across the border, taking a step to normalize the behavior, before moving on to more sympathetic targets in the future.
  - iaw 10y ago
    Sadly, you're probably correct.
    - scarmig 10y ago
      Question: given that, would it make sense for HK's government to claim that it cooperated for the removal, or was even the instigator who requested the PRC take action? Allows them to save their gunpowder of calling out the violation of HK autonomy for someone much more sympathetic.
      - iaw 10y ago
        I honestly don't know enough to answer that question. The complexities of international politics plus the One China & Separate but Equal HK status makes it something one could spend a lifetime studying to begin to speak intelligently on.
zkirill 10y ago
I am a Canadian citizen who lives in British Columbia and is not Chinese or of Chinese descent. The fact that a Canadian citizen was "seized" is very concerning to me and I hope that our government gets on top of this swiftly. I also don't see any facts on which you can base your corruption claim.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  >I also don't see any facts on which you can base your corruption claim. "Some of his most successful deals involved buying stakes in midsize financial institutions in smaller Chinese cities, often through a complex web of shell or dummy corporations. When Citigroup and other investors agreed to buy a big stake in the Guangdong Development Bank, for instance, one of Mr. Xiao’s investment vehicles — Puhua Investment — took an 8 percent interest, and then just weeks later transferred it to another state financial institution. Few analysts or journalists knew he was involved. While shell companies are widely used in China as investment vehicles, securities experts say they can also be employed to hide the ownership stakes of public officials, providing cover for favors distributed by businessmen. Their frequent use by Mr. Xiao has fanned speculation that he gets privileged access to deals involving state assets and that he shares the benefits with the families of the ruling elite." [...] "But a review of corporate registration records has found that on at least three occasions during the last five years, companies affiliated with Mr. Xiao have struck deals that appear to have benefited the relatives of China’s highest-ranking leaders." from: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/asia/tiananmen-era-students-different-path-to-power-in-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/asia/tiananmen-era-... not conclusive, but he certainly walks like a duck
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    That kind of thing is pretty unremarkable behavior for the wealthy in China.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- samsonradu 10y ago
  I think parent is making a good point. See, in corrupt/poor countries when someone becomes a billionare he does not get the benefit of doubt. The entire legal and executive systems are so rotten and shady that there is no legal way for someone to become that rich unless they play dirty regardless of their capabilities, luck, education or great ideas.
rbcgerard 10y ago
Ahh the old "he seems like a bad guy let's just hurry this up and skip all that messy due process stuff..."
- micaksica 10y ago
  That's not my point, at all. The fact of the matter is that in political situations, there is a calculated risk taken by both states in a diplomatic conflict. At the end of the day it is about power and what resources are required to fight this. China has the upper hand here. On the Chinese side, they have renditioned a Chinese-born, Chinese-made, PRC-living billionaire from a Chinese SAR that's more "one country, one and a half systems" and slipping further as China can get away with it. This man's rendition is likely part of an anticorruption initiative that started a few years back, given that it was done by Chinese security services. He pissed off the wrong people in the Party and now he is having to deal with it. As the man is a Canadian citizen, the Canadian government now has to decide how much to protest this action. Protesting actions against their citizens requires political will and/or capability of enforcement. China has already stepped over the usual line and stolen him away anyway; will the Canadian state act? This is where I am skeptical. I don't believe that the Canadian state will find that this man is worth burning more than a little diplomacy on, maybe a protest or two. Fighting this action requires burning political capital. There is a province in which these people have become woefully unpopular; unless a lot of Canadians get really angry, there is little reason for the Canadian state to do more than informally protest through an ambassador and at best a back room dealing or two to free him (e.g. we will share financial data on Chinese-Canadian citizens if you give us our citizen back.) Either way, by making the first move China has extracted something from Canada. To add: I also believe that the UK will not do anything regarding this rendition. They have enough international issues to deal with re: EU/Brexit and I doubt they will feel that Hong Kong is important enough to their shrinking empire to push back on China with this.
  - sidek 10y ago
    Canada would likely do more if they weren't trying to get a free trade deal with China as fast as possible to avoid Trump being able to dictate their economy. The unfortunate geopolitics of our contemporary world.
FabHK 10y ago
Agreed, the issue is not so much that particular guy. The issue is the rule of law. No one in Hong Kong should be apprehended by Chinese police. If Colombian police came to Miami to snatch some drug lord, you'd object presumably, no matter your sympathy for the criminal.
- micaksica 10y ago
  US/CIA does "extraordinary rendition" all the time and sends missiles into sovereign states via drone daily. Whether or not one objects doesn't matter if there is no way to deter the behavior. If China sees no consequences China will do as China pleases. Law is irrelevant. I agree that I don't like seeing China wandering into Hong Kong, but the way China acts, the "one country, two systems" thing really is in name only. China will eventually subsume all of Hong Kong as they see fit. The question is whether it is done subversively or not. As of right now, the subversive actions are costing them less on the world's stage so they'll keep chipping away at the SAR until it is at least controlled by puppets of the PRC government.
  - linkregister 10y ago
    > US/CIA does "extraordinary rendition" all the time Then it's okay then! > Law is irrelevant. Commerce is extremely sensitive to rule-of-law. Instability vastly reduces investment. > China will eventually subsume all of Hong Kong as they see fit. That's pretty fatalistic; why get out of bed in the morning if you're just going to die someday?
  - FabHK 10y ago
    Agreed on your cynical description of realpolitik on the ground. But it's not a good thing, and the cases ought to be investigated, and if it turns out that it was unlawful, HK and Britain (as contracting party in the treaty giving rise to the SAR) and the world ought to object. China will subsume HK by 2047 at the latest - let's hope it will not be earlier. As you highlight, the signs so far do not augur well.
throwaway91111 10y ago
I'm glad you're not this man's counsel.
brilliantcode 10y ago
> given that these people are politically unpopular and causing issues for British Columbia. so who are you speaking for when you use the blanket term "these people"? Are Chinese Born Canadians and other East Asian Canadians included in your labels? I'm seeing more and more of these anti-Chinese comments popping up on reddit /r/vancouver and frankly annoyed to see similar fear mongering and FUD spreading fake comments outside of that cesspool of bitter and shut in crowd. What the hell does British Columbia have to do with this man? He made his money in China and he got kidnapped. What possible blame do you place on this person or the government of BC? As far as I am aware, Canada has never successfully extracted hostages or expats in physical trouble by foreign government or militias. There's no Seal Team Six and CSIS really isn't tasked with Jason Bourne styled missions which you are thinking of.
- micaksica 10y ago
  > There's no Seal Team Six and CSIS really isn't tasked with Jason Bourne styled missions which you are thinking of. I'm not sure how you extrapolated my post to this extreme. I replied to a poster below as to how I am viewing the politics of the situation in more detail, if you'd prefer to get a more reasoned view than the "gut summary". I'm not anti-Chinese. I don't live in Vancouver. It would be rather strange for me to be anti-Chinese; see my bio. I personally get a lot of benefit from East Asia. If anything, you could say that I am in many ways pro-Chinese, but I support the Chinese people. What I do have is a strong dislike for people like this man, who have made billions for themselves through graft, rent-seeking, and cronyism by ingratiating themselves with the party elite. Much of this man's economic wealth is extracted from ordinary Chinese people. When I wrote "these people" I was not talking about Chinese: I was talking about Chinese nationals that made their wealth through corruption and exploitation instead of providing true value to their greater countrymen, then run off to a Western sovereign state in hopes that their actions don't catch up with them.
  - brilliantcode 10y ago
    My bad I've been reading a lot of negative comments on /r/vancouver and my trigger level was too sensitive.

iaw 10y ago

> Mr. Xiao’s fortunes rose after his graduation from the university in 1990, where he had been head of the official student organization and stayed loyal to the government during the pro-democracy demonstrations in 1989. This guy is Canadian and Antiguan in name only, he's Chinese-born and trying to use his resources to escape the government that created his wealth. Of all the human rights/border violations that China commits, this isn't a good poster child.

rbcgerard 10y ago
and by that you mean he's only LEGALLY Canadian and Antiguan...
- iaw 10y ago
  No, I meant what I wrote. He holds properties in Canada, and has diplomatic status from Antigua, but they were purchased and he hasn't shown loyalties to those countries. He didn't take up actual residency in either of the countries, he used their names to suit his international agenda.
  - rbcgerard 10y ago
    How can you asses if has "shown loyalty" to a country? What does residency have to do with anything?
    - iaw 10y ago
      What are an individuals demonstrated motivations for emigrating? If not residency, then what does the individual want from the country and what will they provide back to the country in return? A resident, theoretically, contributes to the community through more means than just their taxes. If an individual jumps citizenship as financial protection, or protection from their origin countries investigations into the money they acquired in that country, than their motives for being a citizen isn't loyalty but wealth preservation. Individuals that use Canada as an asset parking lot wont get much, if any, aid from the Canadian government in events like these. They don't deserve it. I'm happier in a world where the ultra-rich don't benefit hugely from paying Canada to launder their money.
xiaoma 10y ago
That's probably why they forcibly moved him across the border, taking a step to normalize the behavior, before moving on to more sympathetic targets in the future.
- iaw 10y ago
  Sadly, you're probably correct.
  - scarmig 10y ago
    Question: given that, would it make sense for HK's government to claim that it cooperated for the removal, or was even the instigator who requested the PRC take action? Allows them to save their gunpowder of calling out the violation of HK autonomy for someone much more sympathetic.
    - iaw 10y ago
      I honestly don't know enough to answer that question. The complexities of international politics plus the One China & Separate but Equal HK status makes it something one could spend a lifetime studying to begin to speak intelligently on.

zkirill 10y ago

I am a Canadian citizen who lives in British Columbia and is not Chinese or of Chinese descent. The fact that a Canadian citizen was "seized" is very concerning to me and I hope that our government gets on top of this swiftly. I also don't see any facts on which you can base your corruption claim.

nyolfen 10y ago
>I also don't see any facts on which you can base your corruption claim. "Some of his most successful deals involved buying stakes in midsize financial institutions in smaller Chinese cities, often through a complex web of shell or dummy corporations. When Citigroup and other investors agreed to buy a big stake in the Guangdong Development Bank, for instance, one of Mr. Xiao’s investment vehicles — Puhua Investment — took an 8 percent interest, and then just weeks later transferred it to another state financial institution. Few analysts or journalists knew he was involved. While shell companies are widely used in China as investment vehicles, securities experts say they can also be employed to hide the ownership stakes of public officials, providing cover for favors distributed by businessmen. Their frequent use by Mr. Xiao has fanned speculation that he gets privileged access to deals involving state assets and that he shares the benefits with the families of the ruling elite." [...] "But a review of corporate registration records has found that on at least three occasions during the last five years, companies affiliated with Mr. Xiao have struck deals that appear to have benefited the relatives of China’s highest-ranking leaders." from: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/asia/tiananmen-era-students-different-path-to-power-in-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/asia/tiananmen-era-... not conclusive, but he certainly walks like a duck
- xiaoma 10y ago
  That kind of thing is pretty unremarkable behavior for the wealthy in China.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
samsonradu 10y ago
I think parent is making a good point. See, in corrupt/poor countries when someone becomes a billionare he does not get the benefit of doubt. The entire legal and executive systems are so rotten and shady that there is no legal way for someone to become that rich unless they play dirty regardless of their capabilities, luck, education or great ideas.

rbcgerard 10y ago

Ahh the old "he seems like a bad guy let's just hurry this up and skip all that messy due process stuff..."

micaksica 10y ago
That's not my point, at all. The fact of the matter is that in political situations, there is a calculated risk taken by both states in a diplomatic conflict. At the end of the day it is about power and what resources are required to fight this. China has the upper hand here. On the Chinese side, they have renditioned a Chinese-born, Chinese-made, PRC-living billionaire from a Chinese SAR that's more "one country, one and a half systems" and slipping further as China can get away with it. This man's rendition is likely part of an anticorruption initiative that started a few years back, given that it was done by Chinese security services. He pissed off the wrong people in the Party and now he is having to deal with it. As the man is a Canadian citizen, the Canadian government now has to decide how much to protest this action. Protesting actions against their citizens requires political will and/or capability of enforcement. China has already stepped over the usual line and stolen him away anyway; will the Canadian state act? This is where I am skeptical. I don't believe that the Canadian state will find that this man is worth burning more than a little diplomacy on, maybe a protest or two. Fighting this action requires burning political capital. There is a province in which these people have become woefully unpopular; unless a lot of Canadians get really angry, there is little reason for the Canadian state to do more than informally protest through an ambassador and at best a back room dealing or two to free him (e.g. we will share financial data on Chinese-Canadian citizens if you give us our citizen back.) Either way, by making the first move China has extracted something from Canada. To add: I also believe that the UK will not do anything regarding this rendition. They have enough international issues to deal with re: EU/Brexit and I doubt they will feel that Hong Kong is important enough to their shrinking empire to push back on China with this.
- sidek 10y ago
  Canada would likely do more if they weren't trying to get a free trade deal with China as fast as possible to avoid Trump being able to dictate their economy. The unfortunate geopolitics of our contemporary world.

FabHK 10y ago

Agreed, the issue is not so much that particular guy. The issue is the rule of law. No one in Hong Kong should be apprehended by Chinese police. If Colombian police came to Miami to snatch some drug lord, you'd object presumably, no matter your sympathy for the criminal.

micaksica 10y ago
US/CIA does "extraordinary rendition" all the time and sends missiles into sovereign states via drone daily. Whether or not one objects doesn't matter if there is no way to deter the behavior. If China sees no consequences China will do as China pleases. Law is irrelevant. I agree that I don't like seeing China wandering into Hong Kong, but the way China acts, the "one country, two systems" thing really is in name only. China will eventually subsume all of Hong Kong as they see fit. The question is whether it is done subversively or not. As of right now, the subversive actions are costing them less on the world's stage so they'll keep chipping away at the SAR until it is at least controlled by puppets of the PRC government.
- linkregister 10y ago
  > US/CIA does "extraordinary rendition" all the time Then it's okay then! > Law is irrelevant. Commerce is extremely sensitive to rule-of-law. Instability vastly reduces investment. > China will eventually subsume all of Hong Kong as they see fit. That's pretty fatalistic; why get out of bed in the morning if you're just going to die someday?
- FabHK 10y ago
  Agreed on your cynical description of realpolitik on the ground. But it's not a good thing, and the cases ought to be investigated, and if it turns out that it was unlawful, HK and Britain (as contracting party in the treaty giving rise to the SAR) and the world ought to object. China will subsume HK by 2047 at the latest - let's hope it will not be earlier. As you highlight, the signs so far do not augur well.

throwaway91111 10y ago

I'm glad you're not this man's counsel.

brilliantcode 10y ago

> given that these people are politically unpopular and causing issues for British Columbia. so who are you speaking for when you use the blanket term "these people"? Are Chinese Born Canadians and other East Asian Canadians included in your labels? I'm seeing more and more of these anti-Chinese comments popping up on reddit /r/vancouver and frankly annoyed to see similar fear mongering and FUD spreading fake comments outside of that cesspool of bitter and shut in crowd. What the hell does British Columbia have to do with this man? He made his money in China and he got kidnapped. What possible blame do you place on this person or the government of BC? As far as I am aware, Canada has never successfully extracted hostages or expats in physical trouble by foreign government or militias. There's no Seal Team Six and CSIS really isn't tasked with Jason Bourne styled missions which you are thinking of.

micaksica 10y ago
> There's no Seal Team Six and CSIS really isn't tasked with Jason Bourne styled missions which you are thinking of. I'm not sure how you extrapolated my post to this extreme. I replied to a poster below as to how I am viewing the politics of the situation in more detail, if you'd prefer to get a more reasoned view than the "gut summary". I'm not anti-Chinese. I don't live in Vancouver. It would be rather strange for me to be anti-Chinese; see my bio. I personally get a lot of benefit from East Asia. If anything, you could say that I am in many ways pro-Chinese, but I support the Chinese people. What I do have is a strong dislike for people like this man, who have made billions for themselves through graft, rent-seeking, and cronyism by ingratiating themselves with the party elite. Much of this man's economic wealth is extracted from ordinary Chinese people. When I wrote "these people" I was not talking about Chinese: I was talking about Chinese nationals that made their wealth through corruption and exploitation instead of providing true value to their greater countrymen, then run off to a Western sovereign state in hopes that their actions don't catch up with them.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  My bad I've been reading a lot of negative comments on /r/vancouver and my trigger level was too sensitive.