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Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple
- mbgaxyz 10y agoRelated: "According to a study completed by a team at the Illinois Institute of Technology, typical desktop 3D printers emit particles and compounds during printing that federal agencies say could cause cancer or other ailments." http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-3d-printer-emissions-health-risks-bsi-20160203-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-3d-printe...
- mattnewton 10y agoThough this is marketed as a "laser printer" its most likely a laser cutter. Glow forge was the first I know of to start this stupid fad of calling them printers to be associated with the 3D printer market. Laser cutters burn materials at high energy and need to be properly vented.
- jandrese 10y agoExactly. This was more like having an unventilated fireplace in the house, except it makes much less smoke so you don't realize just how dangerous it is.
- digi_owl 10y agoAt this point living seems to cause cancer...
- BoysenberryPi 10y agoI mean....it does
- anigbrowl 10y agoThat's an especially asinine comment given the clear cause and effect on display in this case.
- tbenst 10y agoUnclear what a "laser 3D printer" means--possibly selective laser sintering, but that doesn't produce carbon monoxide to my knowledge. Possibly a homegrown machine. Tragic reminder of the importance of proper workspaces.
- lima 10y agoMight be a laser cutter/engraver. Would make more sense since those actually do burn the material.
- dekhn 10y agoI don't know anything specific in this case (I have been following it since it was first reported, since it's local, and mysterious). But my first suspicion would be the CO2 gas supply to the laser. Low-quality CO2 gas has CO impurities. I think a leak in the gas supply, combined with really poor ventilation, could possibly lead to this situation, but I'm still surprised there would be enough CO to fatally poison 2 people and 2 cats.
- adammunich 10y agoCo2 lasers are 30℅ CO by design. Kind of like a halogen cycle thing but recombinant. There is very little gas in a tube though.
- sokoloff 10y agoIt seems the poisoning came from the operation of the laser, which means that the gases inside the laser were not involved. (It doesn't seem from breakage of the tube, but from usage.)
- stcredzero 10y agoCO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's worse: a lot of CO detectors are pretty shoddy.
- pfarnsworth 10y agoVery, very sad. Who knew that it created CO, but I have paranoia about stuff like that so I would only have it in the garage. Maybe that wouldn't be enough depending on how much CO it produced.
- afuchs 10y agoThe hazards created by this type of equipment are well understood [1]. The problem is that many people do not know about, and are ignorant of those hazards. [1] https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#2 https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#2
- abalone 10y agoTragic. Recently California started requiring carbon monoxide detectors in most homes.[1] Make sure you have one. That's a surprising cause though. How much CO can a laser printer/cutter produce, worst case? [1] http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housing_Code_Enforcement/Carbon_Monoxide_Devices.aspx http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housin...
- JshWright 10y agoNew York has a similar law: http://www.amandaslaw.org/ http://www.amandaslaw.org/ As both a maker and a firefighter, I would be _very_ surprised if CO from a laser cutter was actually the cause here. Laser cutters can absolutely emit harmful fumes, but CO needs to be in the hundreds of ppm range to be fatal, and that's a _lot_ of CO. For context, we had a call a while back where a guy was running a gas powered (two-stroke) rotary saw [1] for a couple hours in a poorly ventilated basement. CO levels were in the 300-400 range (and he was certainly feeling poorly). [1] Something like this: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0804841 https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0804841
- Gibbon1 10y agoMy dad mentioned that he almost died from a wall heater in college. He was 'sick with the flu' and getting worse. One night laying in bed the wall heater fired up. He saw the light from the flame flickering on the floor and he thought 'that's odd it's orange not blue' The exhaust was blocked with soot. I also had a friend and his GF that died from an improperly installed furnace. I also wonder about cyanide from cutting plastic as well as carbon monoxide. No idea, but they both seem about as toxic.
- stcredzero 10y agoCO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up. CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's worse: a lot of cheap CO detectors are pretty shoddy.
- pmoriarty 10y agoWhat CO detectors would you recommend?
- stcredzero 10y agoAt his point, I would just pony up some cash. Maybe bug a chemistry geek YouTuber.
- 172811811 10y agoI've researched this some months ago, but it isn't a one time cost. I arrived at this model: https://www.draeger.com/en_aunz/Applications/Products/Mobile-Gas-Detection/Single-Gas-Detection-Devices/Pac-5500 https://www.draeger.com/en_aunz/Applications/Products/Mobile... But if you want to do it right, you also need a calibration station and calibration gas bottles. It is quite an effort. [No product placement, also look for Honeywell and others.]
- semi-extrinsic 10y agoOmega is one company I would trust for this myself; they sell for industrial applications, not homes, and have a good reputation when it comes to sensors. A CO monitor will set you back $235. http://www.omega.com/pptst/AQM-103.html http://www.omega.com/pptst/AQM-103.html
- pmoriarty 10y agoIs there any way to know that an expensive CO detector like this is worth getting for home use, instead of one costing 10x less?
- robinhouston 10y agoOff topic, but I’ve never seen the care-of symbol (℅) used in place of percent (%) before. I’m really curious how that could happen. On my keyboard I can type % as shift-5, but there’s no way to type ℅ without selecting it from a list of characters.
- kbuck 10y agoOn Android, the Google Keyboard has both symbols on the same screen[1], and it's difficult to visually differentiate them. When you see this particular typo, it's probably someone using the Google Keyboard on Android. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/56hwfd/psa_is_different_than_on_the_google_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/56hwfd/psa_is_diff...
- mmastrac 10y agoThis is a problem on Android devices. The ℅ symbol is above the space bar when switching to the symbol keyboard. With the keyboard font as is, the two look very similar.
- sctb 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13507997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13507997 and marked it off-topic.
- iaw 10y agoThis is as tragic as it gets, I suspect liability will fall onto whoever made their "laser 3D printer" if the ventilation warnings weren't good enough.
- iscrewyou 10y agoI lit a candle last night with a closed window and door. Then it hit me that there is no way there is no CO in this room. Immediately opened my window. After hearing this story, I am never sleeping with my window closed.
- pmiller2 10y agoWith one candle, you're in far more danger from it tipping over than from CO.
- iscrewyou 10y agoYeah, I don't leave the room without the flame completely out.
- amluto 10y agoI'm not sure about candles, but a decently oxygenated open flame (e.g. your stove without a pan on it) emits essentially no CO.
- bonniemuffin 10y agoGetting a CO detector seems like a simpler solution than keeping your window open forever.
- beambot 10y ago> After hearing this story, I am never sleeping with my window closed. no fans either, just to be safe.
- developer2 10y agoAre you trolling a dead couple? A candle's CO is what you are worried about? Sigh.
- ashread123 10y agowe recommend you hire from a team of pro hackers by texting or dialling 19193076946 or darkwebsolutions /at/ hackermail /dot/ com
- zapu 10y agoDamn, I need to invest in some CO sensor. Very sad to read.
- pmoriarty 10y agoMakers are often exposed to many toxic compounds, from toxins in salvaged electronics to PCB etching compounds to lead solder and solder fumes. Unfortunately, they rarely have much if any safety training or awareness of the dangers they are exposing themselves to.
- Steezy 10y agoAs a new hobbyist in the Maker community, are there any resources you'd recommend that covers basic safety that is aimed at Makers? edit: typo
- pmoriarty 10y agoI'd start with digging up the material safety data sheets (MSDS)[1] for all the compounds you're working with, and reading over those. I'd also search around for books and papers on electronics safety. It's really amazing just how little electricity is required to stop a human heart, if the conditions are right. The same goes for chemical safety. College level textbooks on these subjects tend to at least give a decent overview of the issues involved, to a more thorough degree than books targeted at a popular audience. But I wouldn't stop there, and would try to find some more specialist literature dealing with safety in particular. I'd also encourage you to take courses in these subjects, and talk to the professors about your interest in safety. Unfortunately safety is not a very sexy topic, and tends to get glossed over a lot. But you'll still be far better off with guidance from an experienced instructor than trying to go it all on your own. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet
- danieltillett 10y agoThe trouble with MSDS is that the lawyers have got to them and they all end saying the same thing (look at the one for salt [1]) and so people become blasé about the really dangerous risks. When I was an academic I had huge problems with students working with the truely dangerous chemicals in an unsafe manner because they couldn't tell the difference. I had to run little informal classes with my students where I would teach them which chemicals they had to worry about and which were not that dangerous. 1. https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593 https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593
- Animats 10y ago"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes some common plastics, styrene being one. There are lots of things you don't want to cut on a laser cutter unless you're cutting under an inert gas, or at least nitrogen. Polycarbonate, any of the chlorinated plastics (PVC, some synthetic leather), styrenes, and polyethylene, for example. ABS melts, and Fiberglas's glass component won't cut. Acrylics cut very well. Delrin cuts OK. Wood and cloth are OK. Techshop is careful to teach people about this. TechShop's laser cutters have compressed air coming in, a big exhaust hose going out, and a fire extinguisher nearby. TechShop has an ad slogan, "Don't try this at home. Do it at TechShop". There's something to be said for that when you're using industrial-strength tools. In addition to the two people, their two cats died. Operating these things in a closed room is a really bad idea.
- auxym 10y agoYeah, in my lab we prohibited cutting anything with chlorine, including PVC and polycarbonate. The results are really bad anyways, it melts and burns. I'm curious though, can you get good cutting of polycarbonate using an inert gas shield? That would be interesting.
- Animats 10y agoCNC zone reports that cutting polycarbonate on higher power lasers under nitrogen can be made to work, but it's touchy.[1] The plastic tends to melt rather than cut. Pre-freezing the material is suggested. [1] http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-laser-engraving-cutting-machine-discussion/84589-mazak.html http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-laser-engraving-cuttin...
- userbinator 10y agoPolycarbonate has no chlorine.
- 10y ago
- TheRoccoB 10y agoThis is so tragic. I used to work with Roger and he's about as gifted of an engineer as I've ever met. He was so nice and helpful too, even though he was miles beyond me in terms of skill. He was so into his indy game, Shard, and even whipped out his laptop to show me and started explaining intricacies of the renderer when I met him at an industry event years later. I didn't know his wife, but from the things I've read she was also a pioneer in her industry. Rest in Peace.
- jamiesonbecker 10y agoArticle and headline are incorrect: "Carbon monoxide poisoning has also been ruled out."[1][2][3] Both MIT grads; one a founder of gaming company Glug Glug[2] and co-author of game Shard[4] 1. http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/25/berkeley-toxicology-tests-ordered-in-couples-death/ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/25/berkeley-toxicology-t... 2. http://kotaku.com/game-developers-mourn-sudden-passing-of-ex-harmonix-dev-1791590027 http://kotaku.com/game-developers-mourn-sudden-passing-of-ex... 3. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Two-people-found-dead-Berkeley-apartment-10878385.php http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Two-people-found-dead-Be... 4. http://shard-game.com/ http://shard-game.com/
- cowkingdeluxe 10y agoThe articles you linked are older (24th & 25th) than the article from the headline ( January 27, 2017 2:15 PM ). Further investigation and toxicology reports revealed carbon monoxide (fixed) poisoning. It appears the initial statements ruling out carbon monoxide poisoning were in error.
- TacticalMalice 10y agoCO or CO2? Both are possible, CO2 poisoning is quite horrible though, whereas CO poisoning may go unnoticed.
- bonniemuffin 10y agoYeah really -- I can't imagine you could die of CO2 poisoning without noticing in time to GTFO. I've sucked a lungful of CO2 and it was awful.
- Kubuxu 10y agoThere is a difference between high and low concentrations of CO2 and reactions. In high concentrations you get similar effect to lack of oxygen (as it completely replaces oxygen in the air), in low concentrations it prevents the HbCO2 from unbinding (only 7% of CO2 in air is enough to do that IIRC) and causes silent death. There are stories of miners sitting down for a lunch and never standing up again because of that.
- jayajay 10y agoEveryone should read this, and forward to their loved ones. This is very close to home (not literally) because it could happen to anyone, and is something that many people do not consider. Have up-to-date CO detectors, do not operate large appliances without considering their byproducts. Literally, the environment matters more than anything, and this acts as a grave reminder of this. Take care of the environment, especially the tiny one in your home, as it could save your life.
- npunt 10y agoI've always been wary of 3d printers and laser cutters because of indoor air pollution & VOCs. Though I didn't realize the amount they put out and the cumulative effects of CO as mentioned in the comments here. My sense is that laser cutters should be required to come with CO detectors, and more generally we should be looking to add the appropriate chemical detectors to 3d printers and laser printers to warn of other chemical output issues. These home machines are often advertised for use in confined spaces (size is one way manufacturers compete), which is why I think it should be regulated - its not like someone took a commercial machine home with them. Laser cutters are a fairly large capital expense and bolting on a CO detector is very inexpensive (probably <1%), and it could integrate with the cutter's electronics to prevent usage if it exceeds a certain level. Safety regulations are usually written in blood. Having two deaths with such a small # of these machines out there suggests there are probably others who have cumulative CO effects already. Very sad, my heart goes out to the friends and family of Roger & Valerie.
- saycheese 10y agoRoger and Val’s friends are trying to raise money to offset the family’s costs for traveling to the funeral and making funeral arrangements. Contributions can be made online: https://www.gofundme.com/help-roger-hanna-morashs-family https://www.gofundme.com/help-roger-hanna-morashs-family
- rosser 10y agoIt's a tangent — and I'll take the downvotes if people want to ding me for asking, given the context — but since you're here: can you please help me understand why your product is useless without the cloud? I'd have gleefully bought one, except for that. And with that, I'm not touching it.
- greglindahl 10y agoGiven that the context is "CEO attempts damage control after being falsely accused of killing 2 people with an unsafe product", maybe this isn't the time?
- rosser 10y agoTwo people are dead and the context you think I was concerned about is some poor CEO playing damage control?
- allannienhuis 10y agotwo people are dead, and you want the CEO of a company just accused of contributing to those deaths to talk about your issue with cloud-dependent devices?
- gnu8 10y agoIs it fair to call the product unsafe? It's industrial production equipment. I think if a person chooses to operate one in their own dwelling, it's on them to take increased safety measures.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dang 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13509087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13509087 and marked it off-topic.
- xjay 10y agoMight as well raise awareness of Radon, and laser printers. It's a tragedy, and reminded me of Marie Curie (who eventually discovered her research was causing damaging levels of radiation exposure).
- allenrabinovich 10y agoHi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts. I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. They don't even have full toxicology reports. On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away. Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.
- allenrabinovich 10y agoHi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts. I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes weeks. On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away. Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.
- blisterpeanuts 10y agoI'm very sorry for your loss; what a terrible tragedy.
- mmastrac 10y agoSorry to hear that you lost two friends. It's such a terrible thing for the hacker/maker community to lose two people that seemed like such talented, intelligent individuals.
- isjamesalive 10y agoDeep condolences to you and to their friends and families. x
- patcheudor 10y agoCondolences for sure. Do you happen to know the size of their place by chance? CO becomes deadly at about 400 PPM or 0.04%. Doing the calculations I can't for the life of me figure out how a small laser cutter could produce enough CO under any condition to become deadly. Even with the smallest of places, lets say 24x20x7 studio, that's 3,360 cubic feet of air & at 0.0807 pounds per cubic feet of air, that means roughly 271 pounds of air. To become toxic, that would mean the laser cutter would need to output 0.1084 pounds of CO or roughly 1.7 ounces of CO in that area and then not get dissipated through air leaks, opening and closing the exterior door, etc. That seems exceedingly high given a laser is going to cut very little actual material and even getting to the point where it has cut 1.7 ounces of material, let alone produced 1.7 ounces of CO would seem to me to take weeks, months, or years.
- toomim 10y agoRoger was an inspiration to me. Now he's dead.
- y0shi 10y agoThere should have been a CO detector :(
- rdl 10y agoThis is horrible. Anyone with combustion sources of any kinds (gas heat, cooking, cars in a garage, many kinds of tools) should have a CO sensor properly placed. I'm staying at someone's house for a month, don't see one, so I just ordered a couple.
- meesterdude 10y agoPSA: Make sure you have carbon monoxide detectors in your home, and that you replace them every 5-7 years, as the detector goes bad over time. If you are in a home with a high chance of carbon monoxide buildup, get one with a digital display to help first responders understand your exposure level. if you have children, get one that talks.
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- ajeet_dhaliwal 10y agoI installed two carbon monoxide detectors at my mother's house over the holidays and really we all should, it's not a big cost. This is very sad for their friends and family but most of all for the poor couple. I think it's selfish but rather human to say that when something like this happens to 'people like us', in this case referring to background, interests, and hobbies it can feel extra shocking and upsetting.
- tropo 10y agoHaving tried one, I wouldn't trust a detector. That was money not well spent. I could generate lots of CO, and nothing would register. Maybe flawed units are super-rare, but I'm more than tempted to assume the industry is a fraud. Why even bother? The device has one job, and it fails. All you get is a false sense of safety.
- hunterashmore 10y agoDepends on the type of unit you had. A "sensor" certainly should have picked up lower levels, but most "alarms" don't go off unless harmful limits are hit - often calibrated at or above 100ppm, depending on the unit specs.
- nemo1618 10y agoWhat most people miss about CO detectors is that they don't go off until CO levels have been elevated for a while. At low concentrations it can take multiple hours to trigger the alarm; at higher concentrations it can take 30 minutes. Even at dangerous concentrations it can still take 5 minutes to sound the alarm. So you can hold your detector in front of an exhaust pipe for a minute and it won't go off, but stick it inside an upturned pot with a candle inside and it will definitely go off eventually. The reason for this is to prevent common false alarms like CO emitted due to cooking or smoking.
- bexp 10y agoArticle summary by AI bot http://hntop.org http://hntop.org BERKELEY (CBS SF) – A couple found dead in their Berkeley home under mysterious circumstances earlier this week was killed by carbon monoxide poisoning, a law enforcement source told KPIX 5 Friday. The source said that the couple was using a laser 3-D printer that was venting into their residence. Symptoms and signs consistent with carbon monoxide poisoning were found in their bodies. Valerie was a postdoctoral research fellow at the Smith-Kettlewell Eye Research Institute in San Francisco. © Copyright 2017 by CBS San Francisco and Bay City News Service.
- DanBC 10y agoYou might not want your bot to post in threads like this, which involve the deaths of people known to some in this community.
- arkhorn 10y agoHi, i've a co2 laser cutting (40w) idle all the time (i do not use it anymore) since around one year in the room close to my bedroom. even when idle its dangerous ? i really don't know what to do, what do you suggest me guys. thanks in advance
- arkhorn 10y agoHi, i've a co2 laser cutting (40w) idle all the time (i do not use it anymore) since around one year in the room close to my bedroom. even when idle its dangerous ? i really don't know what to do, what do you suggest me guys. thanks in advance
- rasengan0 10y agoWe've had so many fire false alarms but finally a real one happened. It was raining hard and maintenance closed the top vent to deter water intake. The unit is a 4 story multi-unit dwelling and luckily someone had a cheap $49 dollar CO detector. The fire came sans alarm and everyone had to evacuate. We were thinking ah man not this again. Someone had some burnt cooking that day. We could only return to our homes until all clear CO detection from the inspectors. My family opted in for the pulse oximetry that the nice fire folk were providing. Needless to say many, including myself, bought CO detectors that week.
- douche 10y agoHow in the hell can a 3d printer produce enough CO to kill people? A shitty woodstove I could believe, or the classic run the car in the garage technique
- Naritai 10y agoThat's tough. Operating any sort of industrial equipment gets dangerous very fast; I know a plaintiff attorney who handles cases like this (injury due to improper exhaust), and the fact that it's actually an area of practice tells you something.
- a_g 10y agotowngas or coalgas that is piped in for cooking is hydrogen and carbon monoxide, has all the other possible sources of carbon monoxide been ruled out before nailing it on the laser cutter or 3d printer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas i'd prefer it that the 'authorities' do a thorough and scientific investigation and release the results in public on the internet, this needs to be proven beyond all doubts that it is caused by the laser cutter or 3d printer if this is not done, it would stir worldwide unnecessary panic about laser cutters and/or 3d printers by saying that laser cutters and/or 3d printers produces carbon monoxide and is dangerous and hence cannot be used i'm not sure about laser cutters but normally 3d printers is more a fire hazard than do anything else, i.e. 3d printers main hazard is fire, but carbon monoxide is likely 'fake and invalid/assumptions/speculations'
- tim4dev 10y agodo you have any news?
- tim4dev 10y agodo you have any news?