10 ms·

Why Does It Take So Long to Connect to a WiFi Access Point?

218 points by 2dvisio 10y ago

tomsmeding 10y ago
Interesting to see this researched, but I think this isn't really applicable to most people's situation at home, where there's 1-3 access points, and most often you just want to connect to a specific one. Then you don't really need software telling you that connecting will be slow, because you know, but you just want to connect. Besides, in my experience, having a lot of wifi interference is a huge PITA when connecting or communicating with an AP. Maybe they were not able to include that factor in their dataset for some reason, but I think you'd find a strong (negative) correlation.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Probably not at home, but that's not when I want to connect faster. I use the Fonera network when I'm in the street, and there's often three or four APs near me, so this could be helpful. Another case is campus wifi, when I was in college. In both of these cases, I want to connect to a specific SSID, but not to a specific AP.
dorianm 10y ago
> we develop a machine learning based AP selection strategy that can > significantly improve WiFi connection set-up performance, against the > conventional strategy purely based on signal strength, by reducing the > connection set-up failures from 33% to 3.6% and reducing 80% time costs of the > connection set-up processes by more than 10 times. > The correlation analysis finds that though the signal strength is important, > knowing the AP model and mobile device model has great help to predict the > connection set-up time cost. Neat!
- saycheese 10y ago
  > [Abstract] "we develop a machine learning based AP selection strategy that can significantly improve WiFi connection set-up performance, against the conventional strategy purely based on signal strength, by reducing the connection set-up failures from 33% to 3.6% and reducing 80% time costs of the connection set-up processes by more than 10 times." > [Conclusion] "The correlation analysis finds that though the signal strength is important, knowing the AP model and mobile device model has great help to predict the connection set-up time cost. To the best of our knowledge, we are the first to add AP model and mobile device model as features which greatly increases the accuracy to predict the connection set-up time cost." _____ (NOTE: Please do not use block quote formatting, it's unreadable on mobile.)
  - ClassyJacket 10y ago
    Why are the quotes like that on mobile anyway? It's quite irritating.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Because it is wrapped in a pre tag (aka preformated text). And it is not so much a quote as a way to show code segments.
      - saycheese 10y ago
        Correct, block quotes use a mono-space font by default and the use cases for it were largely for expressing code snippets.
      - tonto 10y ago
        You can add wrap to pre...Maybe for pure formatting's sake it's not a good idea though
  - emmelaich 10y ago
    @HN please add wrappable quoting markup.
    - mintplant 10y ago
      I requested this a while ago and was told that, although they like the idea, adding standardized blockquote markup would somehow break HN's spam filter.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        It's not uncommon to use italics for quoted paragraphs, optionally prefixed by a single greater than, or surrounded by quotes. Like this. > Or this.
bfirsh 10y ago
This reminded me of this explanation of how MacBooks (and presumably other devices) manage to reconnect to Wifi so quickly after waking from sleep: http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do
- digi_owl 10y ago
  And in the process walking all over various security best practices? And was there not a similar security snafu involving iPhones broadcasting past ssids every time they tried to connect to a access point?
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Well, this traffic is sent after link establishment, so at least in a WPA network, it's already encrypted (hopefully it doesn't do the same in unencrypted networks). Still, any member of the network could sniff the MACs of the last few APs the device was connected to, which as you said, it's a security/privacy leak.
  - kiliankoe 10y ago
    Don't most (mobile) devices broadcast all known SSIDs just in case a network is available and hidden? I don't really know a lot about the subject matter, but as I recall this does not apply to just iPhones. I also remember an installation at the Datenspuren in Dresden with a monitor showing all of these SSIDs it intercepted with people walking past and being astounded how the device knew their home network name^^
    - ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
      Almost all Android devices do the same, they just send probe requests with all known networks. That is why you can automatically connect to "hidden" networks. Just run kismet or wireshark and see for yourself.
      - BoorishBears 10y ago
digi_owl 10y ago
Seems to me like a "problem" only in the sense that one wants to leech data connectivity while out and about.
- ctdonath 10y ago
  It's a problem I deal with daily as my personal notebook takes 5-10 seconds to connect to my home network, annoying when I expect near instant connectivity to a known network.
- icebraining 10y ago
  There are many cases where one wants to use wifi while out and about without "leeching". In my city alone, we have areas with paid networks, tit-for-tat networks (Fonera) and public networks (as in paid by taxes).
  - macintux 10y ago
    Interesting, I'd never heard of Fonera. Trying to find hotspots in my area has simply emphasized to me how dusty my laptop screen is (the closest hotspot seems to be several hours' drive away).
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Fonera is nice in my country (and a few other European ones) because one of our largest ISPs made a deal with them, so every client of theirs is also a Fonera member, and therefore a hotspot I can use.
thyselius 10y ago
Was hoping for an explanation to: Why doesn't it take a fraction of a second to connect?
- hannibalhorn 10y ago
  The paper says that the biggest delay is in the "scan" phase, just getting a list of all the available APs in the area. This would be the same problem addressed by Apple's "try to associate to all known SSIDs on powerup" approach. Maybe I'm missing something, but their actual machine learning model seems to address a different problem: The final features we choose to train: the connection time cost includes hour of day, RSSI, mobile device model, AP model, Encrypted Given this, I they're basically giving lower priority to known incompatible device & AP pairs based on their BSS IDs. Not sure I like the approach that much, seems an AP running a recent OpenWRT and very reliable would be penalized for having buggy factory firmware.
  - andreyf 10y ago
    Seems like something simple like "look for the last N and the most common {M0, M1, M2} in the past {week, month, year} before doing a full scan" should hit the vast majority of use cases, no?
jbg_ 10y ago
Could someone with permission to do so please fix the title? It either needs the question mark removed, or to be written as a question (e.g. "Why Does It Take So Long…")
- jonsen 10y ago
  Only the paper authors can fix their PDF, I guess.
  - jbg_ 10y ago
    Is there some policy on HN that the title of the submission always matches the title of the thing that is linked to? I'm sure I've seen situations where it doesn't.
    - Spare_account 10y ago
      The verbatim title is preferred: "... please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        Though it's more like the verbatim title is preferred except when it isn't and there's a good chance an editor will change it to the verbatim title, or something worse, or maybe better and an equally good chance people will complain and it'll be changed [back]. I've always said we should have the verbatim title and an editorialised one and let people choose in config which one[s] they want. Current system mostly works though.
IshKebab 10y ago
And why is there no proper 'invalid password' response? It always seems to me like if you have the correct password the connection succeeds and if you have the wrong password the connection just mysteriously fails and the computer has to guess that maybe it was because the password was wrong? In fact I've had a Macbook tell me the password was wrong when it was definitely correct. I imagine it's because they have to guess the failure reason.
- bwat48 10y ago
  Depends on the operating system. For example on an Android phone it will usually say 'authentication problem'
  - IshKebab 10y ago
    Not always. It often just disconnects without any message.
- gipsies 10y ago
  If you're using a pre-shared key, the password is verified during the 4-way handshake. The thing is, if your password is wrong, then the Message Authentication Code (MAC) of the messages your are sending is wrong. The AP will simply drop frames with a wrong MAC, and will not respond to them. The problem is that as a client you do not know whether the AP is not responding because (1) the MAC was wrong, and hence the password was wrong; or (2) the message did not arrive at the AP (or you did not receive the response of the AP). tl;dr: can't tell the difference between dropped messages due to wrong authentication check (i.e. wrong password), or dropped messages due to bad connection.
  - zaroth 10y ago
    I think this is half right. There is still an L1 ACK, so the STA doesn't have to retry sending the packet, it knows it was received. I believe what happens is AP sends Nonce to the STA, STA uses the PSK to send Message 2 back to the AP. It will receive a '802.11 Ack' but then no Message 3 of the 4-way handshake will ever come from the AP. Good drivers see this and flag an invalid password warning back to the user within milliseconds. But bad drivers... sure, they will just keep assuming magic dust got in the way and if they just keep retrying the handshake enough maybe they will see a Message 3. I'm not sure why from a security hardening perspective it's better not to specify the AP should send '802.11 Disassoc' immediately after receiving an invalid Message 2 with a proper error code so that the driver can message the UI that the password is wrong instantly.
saycheese 10y ago
Here's an MIT Technology Review article covering this reach, "Data Mining Solves the Mystery of Your Slow Wi-Fi Connection": https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603414/data-mining-solves-the-mystery-of-your-slow-wi-fi-connection/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603414/data-mining-solves...
- TwoBit 10y ago
  That article is crap because it never says why connections are slow. Lots of words and no substance.
  - saycheese 10y ago
    I would ask if you're missing a bit, but that would be like saying something is "crap" and materially misrepresenting its value and substance.
petra 10y ago
There's a new tech called MulteFire, which is LTE over unlicensed spectrum. Everybody could buy an access point(altough those will be more expensive for than wifi for some time, at the very least). One of the biggest selling points for it is a simpler faster handoff than WIFI. Is that a big enough problem that people will be willing to buy access points ?
azernik 10y ago
I would be very interested in seeing the correlations between set-up time and total devices in the area (or, to be more precise, total channel utilization). This paper studied devices associated per access, point, which is a separate metric. They mentioned the issue in a paragraph at the end of a section, probably dug up in post-study literature review. From work in wi-fi router development, high channel utilization is often a much bigger determinant of packet loss than either router overload or RSSI. Hour of day is probably just a good proxy for this. 802.11 is pretty good at handling the shared medium when a single access point can do traffic control, but multiple access points in a crowded city or office building gets you into all kinds of problems. Usually you can get big performance gains in large deployments just from making sure nearby access points are on different channels. Between the other two major factors the paper looked at: 1) The number of clients a single router can handle is mostly limited by CPU power (and the failure mode there is typically not association request drops, since those are usually processed pretty early in the packet pipeline, without much queuing). So I'm not surprised that they saw very little effect of number of associated clients with connection time. 2) RSSI is more important in low-interference environments, where the ability to hear packets over the noise floor is a big limiter. In dense, high-interference environments, it helps a bit in terms of being able to shout over the noise of very distant interference sources, but for the most part a collision is a collision even with substantial magnitude differences between the colliding packets.
- ac29 10y ago
  Since you work in WiFi, I was wondering if you could comment the linked chart of SNR to Modulation rates [0]. Obviously the exactly values are going to depend on hardware to some degree. [0]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8644251/Revolution%20Wi-Fi%20MCS%20to%20SNR.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8644251/Revolution%20Wi-...
  - azernik 10y ago
    What exactly do you mean by comment? Explanation of what it represents? Basic overview, with the caveat that I haven't done wifi stuff in a couple of years, and was not doing straight up RF stuff like the hardware folks. It's basically saying that as signal strength above the noise floor (in dB) (ie RSSI - kind of) increases, you can get to higher bit rates. Let me know if you want more info on what exactly is being described.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
zwieback 10y ago
This is great work but I think the machine learning part is just thrown in for trendiness reasons. More rigorous statistical analysis should lead to a cleaner algorithm without relying on pretrained classifiers.
- ppod 10y ago
  If the object is only to improve performance, a black-box machine-learning model should outperform a hand-tuned algorithm. The generalisation (out-of-sample) performance will depend on how representative the training and evaluation sets are, but this is also true for an algorihtm with human-selected features.
- thearn4 10y ago
  In general, any opinions about where we are on the hype curve for machine learning (as a stand-alone concept separate from traditional statistical inference)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - visarga 10y ago
    It's not the first hype cycle, so we've already been through all phases, but now I guess we are still raising towards peak hype. The fact is that this time AI has real world applications and benefits, so it's not just a bunch of hot air. It will not have a crush at this level of hype yet because we now have lots of results that were unimaginable even 5 years ago. We're breaking human level accuracy in vision, speech, text and behavior - on specific tasks, not in general yet. In the last 3 years neural nets have become creative - now they can create paintings (neural style transfer), images (GANs), sounds (WaveNet), text (seq2seq, translation, image captioning) and gameplay (Atari, AlphaGo). All these are complex forms of creativity, as opposed to simple classifiers. So we have recent progress, there is no period of lacking results behind us. That's why we're still on the rise.
ams6110 10y ago
Apple devices seem to aggressively cache the last known IP address on each wireless network, rather than issue a new DHCP request. At home this results in duplicate IP addresses when the kid with the iPhone gets home after being away and meanwhile another device has started using that IP address. This tends to bork up the entire network on my cheap Netgear router and I usually have to reset it at that point.
- unfamiliar 10y ago
  This might explain what I've seen, which is that whenever I go home for the weekend and join my parent's wifi it somehow screws up the internet for everyone else in the house.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  Naive question...why does that mess with the network? Your router has the correct MAC <-> IP mapping, and iPhone kid is the only one losing out.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Not sure but the correlation of Apple device walking in the door and entire home network hanging is pretty consistent. I presume the router periodically issues "who has 192.168.1.10" or whatever and upon getting responses from two different MAC address just gives up.
- lend000 10y ago
  It should be noted that many routers (my Netgear not being an exception) reserve private IP's for saved MAC addresses, which makes this a non-issue. Every device on my LAN has a static private IP (I haven't used my full address space yet, so curious what will happen when I do).
  - j3097736 10y ago
    I believe most of them also derive IPs from MAC addresses because I always get the same addresses, even with the routers NVRAM set to read-only and different OSes

218 points by 2dvisio 10y ago

Interesting to see this researched, but I think this isn't really applicable to most people's situation at home, where there's 1-3 access points, and most often you just want to connect to a specific one. Then you don't really need software telling you that connecting will be slow, because you know, but you just want to connect. Besides, in my experience, having a lot of wifi interference is a huge PITA when connecting or communicating with an AP. Maybe they were not able to include that factor in their dataset for some reason, but I think you'd find a strong (negative) correlation.

icebraining 10y ago
Probably not at home, but that's not when I want to connect faster. I use the Fonera network when I'm in the street, and there's often three or four APs near me, so this could be helpful. Another case is campus wifi, when I was in college. In both of these cases, I want to connect to a specific SSID, but not to a specific AP.

dorianm 10y ago

> we develop a machine learning based AP selection strategy that can > significantly improve WiFi connection set-up performance, against the > conventional strategy purely based on signal strength, by reducing the > connection set-up failures from 33% to 3.6% and reducing 80% time costs of the > connection set-up processes by more than 10 times. > The correlation analysis finds that though the signal strength is important, > knowing the AP model and mobile device model has great help to predict the > connection set-up time cost. Neat!

saycheese 10y ago
> [Abstract] "we develop a machine learning based AP selection strategy that can significantly improve WiFi connection set-up performance, against the conventional strategy purely based on signal strength, by reducing the connection set-up failures from 33% to 3.6% and reducing 80% time costs of the connection set-up processes by more than 10 times." > [Conclusion] "The correlation analysis finds that though the signal strength is important, knowing the AP model and mobile device model has great help to predict the connection set-up time cost. To the best of our knowledge, we are the first to add AP model and mobile device model as features which greatly increases the accuracy to predict the connection set-up time cost." _____ (NOTE: Please do not use block quote formatting, it's unreadable on mobile.)
- ClassyJacket 10y ago
  Why are the quotes like that on mobile anyway? It's quite irritating.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Because it is wrapped in a pre tag (aka preformated text). And it is not so much a quote as a way to show code segments.
    - saycheese 10y ago
      Correct, block quotes use a mono-space font by default and the use cases for it were largely for expressing code snippets.
    - tonto 10y ago
      You can add wrap to pre...Maybe for pure formatting's sake it's not a good idea though
- emmelaich 10y ago
  @HN please add wrappable quoting markup.
  - mintplant 10y ago
    I requested this a while ago and was told that, although they like the idea, adding standardized blockquote markup would somehow break HN's spam filter.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      It's not uncommon to use italics for quoted paragraphs, optionally prefixed by a single greater than, or surrounded by quotes. Like this. > Or this.

bfirsh 10y ago

This reminded me of this explanation of how MacBooks (and presumably other devices) manage to reconnect to Wifi so quickly after waking from sleep: http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do

digi_owl 10y ago
And in the process walking all over various security best practices? And was there not a similar security snafu involving iPhones broadcasting past ssids every time they tried to connect to a access point?
- icebraining 10y ago
  Well, this traffic is sent after link establishment, so at least in a WPA network, it's already encrypted (hopefully it doesn't do the same in unencrypted networks). Still, any member of the network could sniff the MACs of the last few APs the device was connected to, which as you said, it's a security/privacy leak.
- kiliankoe 10y ago
  Don't most (mobile) devices broadcast all known SSIDs just in case a network is available and hidden? I don't really know a lot about the subject matter, but as I recall this does not apply to just iPhones. I also remember an installation at the Datenspuren in Dresden with a monitor showing all of these SSIDs it intercepted with people walking past and being astounded how the device knew their home network name^^
  - ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
    Almost all Android devices do the same, they just send probe requests with all known networks. That is why you can automatically connect to "hidden" networks. Just run kismet or wireshark and see for yourself.
    - BoorishBears 10y ago

digi_owl 10y ago

Seems to me like a "problem" only in the sense that one wants to leech data connectivity while out and about.

ctdonath 10y ago
It's a problem I deal with daily as my personal notebook takes 5-10 seconds to connect to my home network, annoying when I expect near instant connectivity to a known network.
icebraining 10y ago
There are many cases where one wants to use wifi while out and about without "leeching". In my city alone, we have areas with paid networks, tit-for-tat networks (Fonera) and public networks (as in paid by taxes).
- macintux 10y ago
  Interesting, I'd never heard of Fonera. Trying to find hotspots in my area has simply emphasized to me how dusty my laptop screen is (the closest hotspot seems to be several hours' drive away).
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Fonera is nice in my country (and a few other European ones) because one of our largest ISPs made a deal with them, so every client of theirs is also a Fonera member, and therefore a hotspot I can use.

thyselius 10y ago

Was hoping for an explanation to: Why doesn't it take a fraction of a second to connect?

hannibalhorn 10y ago
The paper says that the biggest delay is in the "scan" phase, just getting a list of all the available APs in the area. This would be the same problem addressed by Apple's "try to associate to all known SSIDs on powerup" approach. Maybe I'm missing something, but their actual machine learning model seems to address a different problem: The final features we choose to train: the connection time cost includes hour of day, RSSI, mobile device model, AP model, Encrypted Given this, I they're basically giving lower priority to known incompatible device & AP pairs based on their BSS IDs. Not sure I like the approach that much, seems an AP running a recent OpenWRT and very reliable would be penalized for having buggy factory firmware.
- andreyf 10y ago
  Seems like something simple like "look for the last N and the most common {M0, M1, M2} in the past {week, month, year} before doing a full scan" should hit the vast majority of use cases, no?

jbg_ 10y ago

Could someone with permission to do so please fix the title? It either needs the question mark removed, or to be written as a question (e.g. "Why Does It Take So Long…")

jonsen 10y ago
Only the paper authors can fix their PDF, I guess.
- jbg_ 10y ago
  Is there some policy on HN that the title of the submission always matches the title of the thing that is linked to? I'm sure I've seen situations where it doesn't.
  - Spare_account 10y ago
    The verbatim title is preferred: "... please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
      Though it's more like the verbatim title is preferred except when it isn't and there's a good chance an editor will change it to the verbatim title, or something worse, or maybe better and an equally good chance people will complain and it'll be changed [back]. I've always said we should have the verbatim title and an editorialised one and let people choose in config which one[s] they want. Current system mostly works though.

IshKebab 10y ago

And why is there no proper 'invalid password' response? It always seems to me like if you have the correct password the connection succeeds and if you have the wrong password the connection just mysteriously fails and the computer has to guess that maybe it was because the password was wrong? In fact I've had a Macbook tell me the password was wrong when it was definitely correct. I imagine it's because they have to guess the failure reason.

bwat48 10y ago
Depends on the operating system. For example on an Android phone it will usually say 'authentication problem'
- IshKebab 10y ago
  Not always. It often just disconnects without any message.
gipsies 10y ago
If you're using a pre-shared key, the password is verified during the 4-way handshake. The thing is, if your password is wrong, then the Message Authentication Code (MAC) of the messages your are sending is wrong. The AP will simply drop frames with a wrong MAC, and will not respond to them. The problem is that as a client you do not know whether the AP is not responding because (1) the MAC was wrong, and hence the password was wrong; or (2) the message did not arrive at the AP (or you did not receive the response of the AP). tl;dr: can't tell the difference between dropped messages due to wrong authentication check (i.e. wrong password), or dropped messages due to bad connection.
- zaroth 10y ago
  I think this is half right. There is still an L1 ACK, so the STA doesn't have to retry sending the packet, it knows it was received. I believe what happens is AP sends Nonce to the STA, STA uses the PSK to send Message 2 back to the AP. It will receive a '802.11 Ack' but then no Message 3 of the 4-way handshake will ever come from the AP. Good drivers see this and flag an invalid password warning back to the user within milliseconds. But bad drivers... sure, they will just keep assuming magic dust got in the way and if they just keep retrying the handshake enough maybe they will see a Message 3. I'm not sure why from a security hardening perspective it's better not to specify the AP should send '802.11 Disassoc' immediately after receiving an invalid Message 2 with a proper error code so that the driver can message the UI that the password is wrong instantly.

saycheese 10y ago

Here's an MIT Technology Review article covering this reach, "Data Mining Solves the Mystery of Your Slow Wi-Fi Connection": https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603414/data-mining-solves-the-mystery-of-your-slow-wi-fi-connection/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603414/data-mining-solves...

TwoBit 10y ago
That article is crap because it never says why connections are slow. Lots of words and no substance.
- saycheese 10y ago
  I would ask if you're missing a bit, but that would be like saying something is "crap" and materially misrepresenting its value and substance.

petra 10y ago

There's a new tech called MulteFire, which is LTE over unlicensed spectrum. Everybody could buy an access point(altough those will be more expensive for than wifi for some time, at the very least). One of the biggest selling points for it is a simpler faster handoff than WIFI. Is that a big enough problem that people will be willing to buy access points ?

azernik 10y ago

I would be very interested in seeing the correlations between set-up time and total devices in the area (or, to be more precise, total channel utilization). This paper studied devices associated per access, point, which is a separate metric. They mentioned the issue in a paragraph at the end of a section, probably dug up in post-study literature review. From work in wi-fi router development, high channel utilization is often a much bigger determinant of packet loss than either router overload or RSSI. Hour of day is probably just a good proxy for this. 802.11 is pretty good at handling the shared medium when a single access point can do traffic control, but multiple access points in a crowded city or office building gets you into all kinds of problems. Usually you can get big performance gains in large deployments just from making sure nearby access points are on different channels. Between the other two major factors the paper looked at: 1) The number of clients a single router can handle is mostly limited by CPU power (and the failure mode there is typically not association request drops, since those are usually processed pretty early in the packet pipeline, without much queuing). So I'm not surprised that they saw very little effect of number of associated clients with connection time. 2) RSSI is more important in low-interference environments, where the ability to hear packets over the noise floor is a big limiter. In dense, high-interference environments, it helps a bit in terms of being able to shout over the noise of very distant interference sources, but for the most part a collision is a collision even with substantial magnitude differences between the colliding packets.

ac29 10y ago
Since you work in WiFi, I was wondering if you could comment the linked chart of SNR to Modulation rates [0]. Obviously the exactly values are going to depend on hardware to some degree. [0]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8644251/Revolution%20Wi-Fi%20MCS%20to%20SNR.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8644251/Revolution%20Wi-...
- azernik 10y ago
  What exactly do you mean by comment? Explanation of what it represents? Basic overview, with the caveat that I haven't done wifi stuff in a couple of years, and was not doing straight up RF stuff like the hardware folks. It's basically saying that as signal strength above the noise floor (in dB) (ie RSSI - kind of) increases, you can get to higher bit rates. Let me know if you want more info on what exactly is being described.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

zwieback 10y ago

This is great work but I think the machine learning part is just thrown in for trendiness reasons. More rigorous statistical analysis should lead to a cleaner algorithm without relying on pretrained classifiers.

ppod 10y ago
If the object is only to improve performance, a black-box machine-learning model should outperform a hand-tuned algorithm. The generalisation (out-of-sample) performance will depend on how representative the training and evaluation sets are, but this is also true for an algorihtm with human-selected features.
thearn4 10y ago
In general, any opinions about where we are on the hype curve for machine learning (as a stand-alone concept separate from traditional statistical inference)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- visarga 10y ago
  It's not the first hype cycle, so we've already been through all phases, but now I guess we are still raising towards peak hype. The fact is that this time AI has real world applications and benefits, so it's not just a bunch of hot air. It will not have a crush at this level of hype yet because we now have lots of results that were unimaginable even 5 years ago. We're breaking human level accuracy in vision, speech, text and behavior - on specific tasks, not in general yet. In the last 3 years neural nets have become creative - now they can create paintings (neural style transfer), images (GANs), sounds (WaveNet), text (seq2seq, translation, image captioning) and gameplay (Atari, AlphaGo). All these are complex forms of creativity, as opposed to simple classifiers. So we have recent progress, there is no period of lacking results behind us. That's why we're still on the rise.

ams6110 10y ago

Apple devices seem to aggressively cache the last known IP address on each wireless network, rather than issue a new DHCP request. At home this results in duplicate IP addresses when the kid with the iPhone gets home after being away and meanwhile another device has started using that IP address. This tends to bork up the entire network on my cheap Netgear router and I usually have to reset it at that point.

unfamiliar 10y ago
This might explain what I've seen, which is that whenever I go home for the weekend and join my parent's wifi it somehow screws up the internet for everyone else in the house.
paulddraper 10y ago
Naive question...why does that mess with the network? Your router has the correct MAC <-> IP mapping, and iPhone kid is the only one losing out.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Not sure but the correlation of Apple device walking in the door and entire home network hanging is pretty consistent. I presume the router periodically issues "who has 192.168.1.10" or whatever and upon getting responses from two different MAC address just gives up.
lend000 10y ago
It should be noted that many routers (my Netgear not being an exception) reserve private IP's for saved MAC addresses, which makes this a non-issue. Every device on my LAN has a static private IP (I haven't used my full address space yet, so curious what will happen when I do).
- j3097736 10y ago
  I believe most of them also derive IPs from MAC addresses because I always get the same addresses, even with the routers NVRAM set to read-only and different OSes