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Lavabit Reloaded
- MaymayMaster 10y ago>Lavabit believes in privacy and will always ensure your digital freedom. >Asks for your credit card information on the same page. Wew, at least let us use buttcoin, Levison.
- danielhooper 10y agoThis is being down voted but is an interesting point. Is a privacy service in which public record is available for its purchases ever truly private? Maybe its extremely difficult for others to see your communications, but if someone (or some law-enforcement agency) knows you have paid for a private communications service, does that make you a candidate for further scrutinization? I think so.
- EthanHeilman 10y agoProbably shouldn't pay in Bitcoin then.
- bleachedsleet 10y agoYeah, that and an alternative email is required. Too much personally identifying information is needed for a so-called privacy oriented service. I understand an additional email is needed right now since it's basically a pre-order, but I would hope that once fully launched this requirement would be removed at least.
- voodoochilo 10y agono free plan this time? pity.
- tinkersec 10y agoCode for Magma Mail Server: https://github.com/lavabit/magma https://github.com/lavabit/magma Code for DIME (Dark Internet Mail Environment):https://github.com/lavabit/libdime https://github.com/lavabit/libdime
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoI wonder if there are no updates or they are simply not pushed. Similar thing happened to Telegram [1]. Client is open-source and functional, but Google Play version is not what you can build from the source. Explain Lavabit page phrases it like Magma supports only Trusted mode: "We envision Trustful mode as the mode of choice for businesses, which have regulatory requirements, data retention practices, and unique needs like escrow keys. Lavabit’s free and open source server, Magma, supports these users." Are other modes supported? [1] https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram [2] https://lavabit.com/explain-lavabit.html https://lavabit.com/explain-lavabit.html UPDATE: https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822583975067713536 https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822583975067713536 "The website is live, but it will take another day or so to finish deploying magma, and get the latest code into Github." Looks like code is just not pushed yet, it was just withheld until release.
- akerl_ 10y agoTrustful seems like a strange way to refer to the insecure mode. It is indeed full of trust, but not in the way a normal read would suggest: it requires full trust in Lavabit's hosting provider and administrator. If you're going to operate in "trustful" mode, lavabit isny offering any real security wins over any other mail host.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago> Former Lavabit users will be able to access their accounts in “Trustful” mode Looks like Trustful mode is how the old lavabit operated. > If you're going to operate in "trustful" mode, lavabit isny offering any real security wins over any other mail host. This level of security apparently was enough to protect email contents against FBI. The reason this "insecure" mode is kept is to allow users to continue using their old accounts and restore mailbox contents: https://lavabit.com/have-lavabit.html https://lavabit.com/have-lavabit.html
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoIt may also be a very bad idea if Lavabit is compromised now. Don't try to connect to your old account if you had any sensitive emails.
- sleavey 10y agoOh I didn't know that the contents of old accounts were now accessible again. Was that not deleted by Lavabit when they got subpoenaed?
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoI think Ladar deleted TLS key, not the database. Well, https://lavabit.com/have-lavabit.html https://lavabit.com/have-lavabit.html says: "With the help of these tutorials, you should be accessing your old Lavabit e-mail and sending new secure messages in just a few minutes." Maybe e-mail here means account, not messages. I have some free accounts to test, but looks like imap.lavabit.com and smtp.lavabit.com don't have SMTP/IMAP/POP3 ports open. Update: https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822570163547541504 https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822570163547541504 Database is not deployed yet.
- codehusker 10y agoIs there any person as trustworthy as Ladar Levison for a service like email or chat? To my knowledge, he is one of the few that has gone to the mat for his users.
- MaymayMaster 10y agoVincent Canfield
- psybin 10y agoThe owner of Cock Mail / cock.li is at least completely realistic with what can be expected from an email provider. Goofy domain names aside, being completely frank about privacy and security realities is what you want.
- SSLy 10y agosadly he seems MIA.
- psybin 10y agoHe has a phone number, go call him.
- pvg 10y agoA good way to regain and build trust with users would have been to acknowledge his previous mistakes. Then at least you could say "he's been around the block, done it wrong and learned how to do it right". Instead, he writes: "In August 2013, I was forced to make a difficult decision: violate the rights of the American people and my global customers or shut down. I chose Freedom." That isn't what happened. He chose to build and sell a supposedly secure email service that was fundamentally vulnerable to government intrusion. He then decided to play chicken with the USG over a warrant no different than ones he'd complied with previously. The completely pointless escalation forced him to compromise all of his users, something the government had not been asking for. He then shut the service down. There are a lot of ways to describe this but 'I chose Freedom' without any acknowledgment of his previous mis-steps is both misleading and shameless. I wouldn't buy supposedly secure services from him.
- zymhan 10y agoAny reason I shouldn't sign up right now? edit: Signed up. Half off for life is a sweet deal.
- my_ghola 10y agoHas the code been audited?
- zymhan 10y agoMeh, I can always not renew it. I'm unlikely to be better off continuing to use Gmail in the meantime.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoIf you had any old account, looks like you should be able to connect now. Too bad imap.lavabit.com:143 is firewalled on their side.
- sbenfsck 10y agoThe website is up now, I think it'll be a bit until the mail is up.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoSource: https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822583975067713536 https://twitter.com/kingladar/status/822583975067713536
- dandelion_lover 10y agoAs written in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13447493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13447493), one has to give away too much personal information without clear reason. I would suggest to use https://posteo.de https://posteo.de instead. They offer anonymous payment by post (I'm just a happy user).
- 10y ago
- newsat13 10y agoThere is no way I would trust lavabit again given it's past...
- hackuser 10y agoWould you elaborate?
- tomjen3 10y agoCan't talk about op, but I got bucked fucked when he shot down with no warning because I had used a nerdshack email to register my primary domain and can't move it do a different email or server. I am in the process of signing up now, just to restore access and get the hell away from that service. Email is insecure, we know that.
- kijin 10y agoWhat I want is an open-source proxy that I can install on localhost to provide IMAP/SMTP access on the one side, and talk to the encrypted remote data store on the other side. All of the encrypted email services I've seen so far, including Protonmail and now Lavabit v2, require using a special client (app or webmail) instead of common email software. This fails the very first test that I apply when trying to decide whether or not to use an online service: can I get all my data out of it on short notice, in a standard format through an automated process? For email, this means IMAP access so that I can use standard tools like imapcopy to back up and migrate my mailbox. I don't care how secure your product is if it leads to vendor lock-in. I want both good encryption and an exit strategy, and the latter is much more important because if you screw up, I can always move to someone who does it better.
- bigbrooklyn 10y agoIf you NEED encryption, don't use email. From: https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/12/10/why-we-dont-offer-pgp/ https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/12/10/why-we-dont-offer-pgp/ What's the tradeoff? If the server doesn't have access to the content of emails, then it reverts to a featureless blob store: Search isn't possible Previews can't be calculated If you lose your private key, we can't recover your email Spam checking on content isn't possible To access mail on multiple devices, the private key needs to be shared securely between them update: want->NEED
- Dolores12 10y ago>Spam checking on content isn't possible How does encrypted spam work? Spammers encrypt message with your public key?
- mike-cardwell 10y agoAt the moment, encrypted spam doesn't exist. But only because there aren't enough people using encryption to make it worthwhile for the spammers to invest time doing it. Theoretically, a spammer could scan the public keyservers for email addresses and public PGP keys and then send encrypted spam to all of those people. If ever a well targeted spam mailshot was sent, that would be it. But would you really want to get on the bad side of thousands of tech nerds?
- imaginenore 10y agoSearch and previews should be possible on the client side, but then you need a standalone app, not a web interface.
- bigbrooklyn 10y agopossible, but very expensive even on small datasets
- Alex3917 10y agoSearch is still possible. You can stem words and store their weights without storing the actual unencrypted text. This isn't perfect security, but it's good enough that it would be difficult for the government to successfully use the search metadata in a case against you without a lot of other evidence. This is what we do on FWD:Everyone for email threads shared within private repositories.
- advisedwang 10y agoThe explain document doesn't describe how key distribution works. How do I get a public key for somebody that I want to email, and how can I know that I am getting the right key? This is the hard part of an modern cryptosystem and the usual source of weakness.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agohttps://darkmail.info/downloads/dark-internet-mail-environment-march-2015.pdf https://darkmail.info/downloads/dark-internet-mail-environme...
- smoyer 10y agoHow do we know who's controlling the Lavabit domain?
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoCheck whois database. Also Ladar Levison twitter: https://twitter.com/kingladar https://twitter.com/kingladar If he lost control of his domain, he will tweet about it. I guess your point is that he is using Let's Encrypt instead of CA that would verify person or Lavabit LLC identity. In this case, it is not really an issue. If you are not going to check the cert manually every day, pinned Let's Encrypt cert is not way worse given that you have other means to verify ownership.
- tptacek 10y agoIn August 2013, I was forced to make a difficult decision: violate the rights of the American people and my global customers or shut down. I chose Freedom. Shouldn't that "or" be an "and"?
- chuckdries 10y agowhat do you mean?
- codazoda 10y agoMy understanding is that he was legally forced to hand over the encryption key and all the data. The FBI, then, could have read all messages that were available on the server. He shut down so that no additional mail could be sent and read. It's unclear to me how much mail was kept on the server. Only unread mail? Anything in your inbox? Everything?
- caf 10y agoMy understanding is that the key he was forced to hand over was the TLS key that protected communications between clients and his server, and the stored emails were encrypted with a key derived from the user's password. So whether or not the FBI could read a particular stored message or not would depend on whether they'd been able to obtain that user's password: they could if the user had logged in after the FBI had the certificate, or if they'd logged in using a non-PFS cipher suite at any time, or if their password was vulnerable to cracking or determinable by the FBI in some other way.
- jml7c5 10y agoIt's clearer if you add an "either" and a comma: either violate the rights of the American people and my global customers, or shut down. Unless you're alluding to some impropriety on Levinson's part that I'm unaware of.
- satysin 10y agoNo trial is a shame.
- jimnotgym 10y agoWhatever did or didn't happen in the past, I for one am pleased to see another organisation attempting to make email more secure. Especially when governments have gone surveillance crazy. Goodluck Lavabit
- mike-cardwell 10y agoSo they're using a HSM to protect the SSL key this time. Makes me wonder how many HSMs out there are already backdoored.
- cuckcuckspruce 10y agoMy mind tells me that it's not a large amount, but given that the USG has a track record of intercepting routers in the mail and installing surveillance software in them, my guts tell me to be very wary.
- nikcub 10y agoThe whole point of an HSM is that you can't physically tamper with it. Vendors also provide ways to validate HSM's https://www.thales-esecurity.com/msrms/validate https://www.thales-esecurity.com/msrms/validate
- Arallu 10y agoWhat's the difference between Standard and Premier?
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y agoStorage size. 5GB vs 20GB
- DKnoll 10y agoI can finally get my old mail back. :)
- tomjen3 10y agoI just want it so that I can move my domain, which was registered with a nerdshack.com account.
- MichaelGG 10y agoLast I looked, DIME was just org level trust. That is, your domain determines what level of verification you get as far as knowing you have the right key for the recipient. So if you used, say Gmail and they did DIME, you'd still be trusting them totally. Am I misunderstanding? And still no admitting he was selling a fundamentally critically flawed service in the first place. If that's not even being mentioned, it really removes confidence from their new service. As far as hardware HSM, that's cool. I very much enjoyed reading about how an HSM, the Luna CA3, was cracked: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mkb23/research/Unwrapping-the-Chrysalis.pdf http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mkb23/research/Unwrapping-the-Chrys...
- geofft 10y agoAlso, hardware HSM is vulnerable to the "SSL added and removed here! :-)" attack, is it not? "Dear Mr. Levison, remember that law about pen registers that you clearly hadn't heard off last time around? Well, now that you understand them, please install a pen register on the other side of your fancy FIPS 140-2 hardware security device, and have it send us everything in .pcap format. You don't need to reconfigure your HSM for this, and in fact any attempt to do so is now tampering with evidence in a federal investigation. Cheers, the FBI."
- macmac 10y agoWhy would they ask for name, address etc?
- quickben 10y agoThis tells you all you need to know about the rebooted version.
- macmac 10y agoOk, I thought my question was perhaps too tinfoilhatty.
- jpkeisala 10y agoAlso, why should I give my credit card number on https://lavabit.com/want-lavabit.php https://lavabit.com/want-lavabit.php. How do I know they are not storing my card on their server?
- truebosko 10y agoIs this the right space to ask for opinions about Fastmail and its privacy? I just switched on trial after being on Gmail. I'm happy but I switched primarily to get part of my life away from Google.
- betolink 10y agoI consider this article relevant to this discussion: "Hackers can't solve surveillance" http://www.dmytri.info/hackers-cant-solve-surveillance/ http://www.dmytri.info/hackers-cant-solve-surveillance/
- tastythrowaway2 10y agothis vs protonmail.ch?
- ardaozkal 10y agoI'm going with protonmail, personally.
- thatlooper 10y agoPlus protonmail is free. I still want to see how it works out. But I really don't have a lot of hope though.
- newscracker 10y agoYou can't export mails from Protonmail or have a local copy except within Protonmail's iOS or Android apps. This means you can't easily move out if you want to.
- tastythrowaway2 10y agothanks for the replies everyone
- tastythrowaway2 10y agothanks for the replies everyone
- coretx 10y agoSensible choices in a nutshell: If you live in a 5-eyes nation, don't use or buy services hosted or operated from a 5 eyes nation. If you don't live in a 5 eyes nation, only use services hosted and operated from Iceland or Switzerland.( Nation states are the #1 threat, and your own nation is always the most dangerous one. )
- pvg 10y agoNo this is completely backwards. Use services that have security properties addressing the threats that matter to you. Simply adding 'hosted in Iceland' to something that's ineffective isn't going to help you. Having a server in Iceland did absolutely nothing for DPR, for instance.
- JumpCrisscross 10y agoSchweiz is in the EU. We are subject to its data-retention laws. Consider Norway.
- chrisper 10y agoSchweiz / Switzerland is not in the EU. It has agreements with the EU (EFTA), but it certainly is not a member of the EU.
- reitanqild 10y agoSchweiz is in the EU. I don't think it is. See https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en
- unusximmortalis 10y agoSo many ignorant people talking here...
- iklos55 10y agoAbsolutely not, stop spreading false information
- hackuser 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- grecy 10y ago> Today is Inauguration Day in the United States, the day we enact one of our most sacred democratic traditions, the peaceful transition of power Sitting here in West Africa, watching the news, we didn't see much peace during the rioting in the streets in (I assume) Washington
- kriptonic 10y agoThis is such good news! Good luck!
- mvip 10y agoIf you really want secure email, having it hosted and owned by a U.S. company is a recipe for disaster. Since we know that the U.S. gov't will gladly issue gag orders and blackmail, why even bother? It's great that Lavabit is innovating but Protonmail is already ahead by simply not being in the U.S..
- ilyanep 10y agoSo the employees of their "support centers in [California]"[0] can't be blackmailed and gagged? Or do they not have access to the systems? [0] https://protonmail.com/about https://protonmail.com/about
- tornadoboy55 10y agoThey can be blackmailed but can't be gagged as any request for a person's data (including access to it) from a Swiss company MUST go through Swiss court. And even gag orders can't compel someone to break the law. Same situation as three letter agencies requesting EU data from Microsofts' datacenter in Ireland, which whilst it is an American company (and thus they are obliged to deliver by law) is illegal under EU and Irish law, thus preventing Microsoft from giving said data without breaking the law.
- toong 10y agoDo you think that really matters ?
- yabatopia 10y agoIt's a start. It's better than nothing, unfortunately.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y agoYou seem to have a lot of faith in the law and legal process, and assume everyone else does. Laws are a high latency side-chain of authority; a guide perhaps; and for some a business opportunity. And then we have Organised Crime, moles, plants; informants, sympathesiers, casual snitches, quadruple agents, the desperate, and machine learning eating meta-data for breakfast. If you've got something to hide "it's not legal for support staff to [whatever]" is most definitely not a security measure.
- chadcmulligan 10y agoIf I was a government spook I'd set up an email service, then make a big show of closing it down because the government. Then decide to make a big show of 'No, Security is paramount' and reopen my mail service. Not saying this is what happened of course but without legislation all 'secure servers' must be considered corrupted or corruptible. There isn't a technical solution to trust. ..or even going into extreme tinfoil hat mode - how do we even know this is the same person. Again no technical solution Edit: why the down vote? - perhaps a counter argument would be better, I'd like to be proved wrong.
- superflyguy 10y ago"There isn't a technical solution to trust." Well, there is but it's not email and it's not as convenient as end to end encrypted messages. You just need to meet up once in a while -not a problem for most communication-and exchange random data which you use either to encrypt the whole message one time pad style, or piece by piece as passwords. One pair of random data per contact. Lavabit or spookmail or whoever don't get anything exciting to look at other than who is communicating.
- chadcmulligan 10y agobut for a one time pad doesn't the trust happen by meeting the person? It's good for person to person exchanges for people you know, but as you say not for email.
- wjd2030 10y agothis smells funny.
- daveheq 10y agoNaming it the "Dark Internet Mail Environment" is not going to get the average person's sympathy or interest, and will be an easy target for politicians.
- nathan_long 10y agoThis. Folks: encryption is not mainly for doing dark, bad things. It is normal and reasonable to want to control who comes into your house, who reads your email, and who can track your every move. Stop naming your tools as if they were for bad guys. Lavabit Guy, of all people, should realize that encryption isn't worth beans to anyone if the rest of society thinks it's Bad and Should Be Punished. So stop making it sound like that. That's Step 0.
- OJFord 10y agoWhy does their server need your private key? (Except "paranoid" level - I'm much more concerned about handing my private key over to them than anything to with email, why's that paranoid?!) Why can't they just receive, encrypt with my public key, let my client decrypt with private?
- azag0 10y agoWhat would be the point of that? That portion of the traffic is already encrypted if you do encrypted IMAP.
- OJFord 10y agoWhat's the other portion of traffic that's encrypted if you give them your private key? Given a symmetric key, it can only be outgoing, but again - why would you do that on the server?