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LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic illuminance
- mtw 10y agoIn a study done on rats... evidence is low, i would wait for large scale studies before concluding on LED health effects
- adrr 10y agoAren't rats nocturnal? Seems like a very poor study.
- sfrailsdev 10y agoLab rats are brown rats, which aren't nocturnal, but active day and night. I'm not sure that's important for a test of damage to the eye, but there you go.
- Raphmedia 10y agoTheir vision is still really different to that of humans.
- grzm 10y agoSounds like you have some background on this. Would you elaborate? In particular, how the differences make the research unlikely to be meaningful with respect to humans?
- Raphmedia 10y agoI have no background in eyes but I have on rats. I can't affirm that the differences would make that study invalid. I can however tell you a few facts about rat eyes. - Their eyes are sensitive to ultraviolet. - They have a dichromatic vision, two sets of cones instead of three. (some short wavelengths of ultraviolet/blue and a lot of greens) - They cannot reshape their lenses. - They have a lot more photo-receptors on their retina than us. - They are something between farsighted and nearsighted. - Poor binocular vision but big field of view. Albino rats have more differences but I doubt they would have used any of those in a study on eyes. Rats do get the same kind of eyes disease humans do (cataracts, etc.) however their sensitivity to light is really different. I don't think that it is ideal to use such different eyes to test LEDs sensitivity.
- justin_vanw 10y agoI'm curious why LEDs used in light bulbs could cause eye damage, but not for backlights in computer monitors or other common uses? I kindof get the impression that the blue-tinted led's are being considered 'evil' and studies are 'showing' that they are 'harmful'. Certainly these blue led's have far far far less of any wavelength at all of output than say the sun at noon... I wouldn't be surprised to see that this study is never reproduced.
- 24gttghh 10y agoMost people don't stare directly at the Sun for hours every day like a lot of people do with cell phones.
- sp332 10y agoThey didn't test computer monitors.
- whatshisface 10y agoTurn the lights off in a room, and see how much of it your monitors can illuminate. Our eye's logarithmic response to light can end up confusing us about the mile-wide canyon between a glow and a light.
- whatshisface 10y agoTurn the lights off in a room, and see how much of it your monitors can illuminate. Our eye's logarithmic response to light can end up confusing us about the mile-wide canyon between a glow and a light.
- clumsysmurf 10y ago> using different LEDs (Cold-white, blue and green) I wonder what the results would look like for warm LEDs ~ 2700K. I used to be a Cold-white aficionado but moved to warms for everything. If I experiment by suddenly switching between my cold and warm lights its pretty jarring (warm seems more relaxing).
- ChuckMcM 10y agoWow, guess you can get LED poisoning :-). The question that I've heard being bandied about is that people use brighter (higher luminous flux) LED lights and displays for better visibility and the question was whether or not the pupil dilation reflex was appropriately triggered (sort of like going blind by looking directly at a total eclipse of the Sun). If a cause could be identified and reproduced it seems the "fix" would be simply adjusting the spectrum of the output to clue your eye into the fact that it was really bright. Anyway, I wonder if these guys got a follow up grant, does anyone know?
- hprotagonist 10y agoSome immediate thoughts: 1. 6000 lux is a _lot_ of light. 2. The LEDs tested are not the "warm white" (1500-2500K) commonly used as replacements for incandescent bulbs in the US. They're the "blue white" (>4000K) ones, or pure blue or pure green at specific wavelengths. With those constraints, it's an interesting result. It does not mean you need to run home and rip all the lights out, though.
- robert_tweed 10y agoCan't see the full paper, just the abstract, but another thing I wondered if they took into account is the effect of strobing. They didn't include a control that doesn't strobe (such as halogen), since CFLs strobe in the kHz range. LEDs may or may not strobe depending on how they are driven and that isn't stated in the abstract. It does however, seem much more likely that this is to do with extra energy in the UV end of the spectrum, which IIRC WW LEDs cut a lot more of (as well as the additional, visible blue light that makes CW seem so much brighter).
- sandworm101 10y agoIf the issue is confined to the uv, it's a dead-simple to fix. A uv-absorbant filter (ie like on all eyewear since the 80s) should eliminate the problem. Costs would be next to nothing. Conversely, anyone worried could don any eyeware, even swimming goggles have such coatings.
- nine_k 10y agoI can tell when LEDs are strobed at the (double) mains frequency; e.g. Christmas LED lights that likely blink at 120 Hz, since they don't have any electronics beside the LEDs. These do give me a slight nausea. Compared to these, I can conclude that my home LED lights likely strobe in kHz range or above, or maybe not at all.
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- manmal 10y agoI don't like the light given off by LEDs. It looks unreal/surreal to me, and makes me uneasy if it's the only light source. Especially the blueish ones. Before installing them I was very enthusiastic about all the benefits of low power lighting, but now I want to switch back to halogen bulbs, or at least very warmly colored LEDs. I'm oversensitive though. E.g. slightly flickering energy saving lamps make me dizzy, exacerbated by ACs making my eyes dry (hello, Ikea). I hope those nano-coated regular light bulbs will become a thing.
- copperx 10y agoStrange. CFLs feel surreal to me but I find LEDs very... Stable feeling?
- manmal 10y agoWith CFLs, for me, it depends. The cheap or worn out ones tend to flicker ever so slightly (at 50hz where I live), and that's unnerving.
- incongruity 10y agoI'd recommend you look for high-CRI LED bulbs – I've had similar reactions to yours but I'm satisfied with some of the better/higher CRI bulbs(color rendering index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index). They tend to be harder to find, but they're out there. GE Reveal bulbs are higher CRI, for example and I've found other brands through some specialty LED dealers that almost match halogen bulbs.
- ashmud 10y agoLEDBenchmark [1] does a good job with their own spectrum and flicker graphs. So far, the LED bulbs I have gotten based on their results have been good. [1] http://www.ledbenchmark.com/ http://www.ledbenchmark.com/
- mark-r 10y agoThe cheap bulbs I found at Costco are high CRI. I think it was these in a smaller package: http://www.costco.com/Feit-LED-A-Lamp-60W-Replacement-Soft-White-12-Pack-.product.100308157.html http://www.costco.com/Feit-LED-A-Lamp-60W-Replacement-Soft-W...
- PaulHoule 10y agoIf blue light exposure causes Macular Degeneration I wouldn't be suprised if environmental and genetic effects would cause some people to be affected by it and others not. This is the case for noise related hearing loss. Everybody loses hearing acuity a bit as they get older, but exposure to noise accelerates this process. Exposure to ambient sounds in the high 60s (decibels) is harmful to a small segment of the population. That's not very loud, but fortunately most people are not hurt at that level. Occupational exposure levels are set considerably above that point.
- theseadroid 10y agoA related study on human retinal pigment epithelial cells https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eva_Chamorro/publication/230878318_Effects_of_Light-emitting_Diode_Radiations_on_Human_Retinal_Pigment_Epithelial_Cells_In_Vitro/links/0a85e535162107674c000000.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eva_Chamorro/publicatio...
- jp555 10y agoOh great, no doubt this will picked up as a sensationalist news item that'll inevitable lead to a futile debate with my elderly inlaws about how dangerous LED lights are, because this is proof, no matter how much my inlaws are NOT nocturnal albino lab rats. Sigh...
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago> my inlaws are NOT nocturnal albino lab rats. Are you sure?
- squozzer 10y agoThanks HN and NIH. Just in time too -- I have been mulling the purchase of an LED garage light. https://www.haikuhome.com/garage-light https://www.haikuhome.com/garage-light Color temp = 5000K. Output is 13000 lumens. The sales page assumes 10 ft x 15 ft illuminated area (install height not specified but probably 8 ft) = 250 ft^2 or ~23 m^2. Doing the math yields 565 lumens / m^2. Should be a little more at standing (eyes ~5ft off the floor) height.
- BHSPitMonkey 10y agoIt sounds like you wouldn't be anywhere near the lux levels that present a danger based on this post.
- hackuser 10y agoEspecially since the GP's author probably is not an albino rat (though I don't want to presume).
- zkhalique 10y agoWhew, I thought it said "LCDs". Are those safe?
- monochromatic 10y agoIs it possible that this is just a problem with LEDs that flicker[1] because they don't rectify the AC? The blurb didn't mention this problem, but presumably that's not what's going on here. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcbk4H2iGYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcbk4H2iGYU
- m-p-3 10y agoNow I'm wondering if my dog see my LEDs as a stroboscope.. :/
- cm2187 10y agoName me a thing, a biscuit, a light bulb, a gadget, a piece of metal, where there isn't some sort of agency that claimed that it increases the risk of cancer by 0.3% based on a study based on a sample of 8 patients and an opinion from the author's grandma!
- chubot 10y agoDoes anyone else use something like flux or redshift permanently? These programs change the color temperature of your monitor based on the time of day, but I use them all day. Otherwise my eyes start watering after awhile and get itchy and irritated. I think I must be sensitive to blue light. I used to set it around 4500 color temperature but now I lowered it to 4000.
- akeck 10y agoI have dropped the blue to near zero in my work monitor's settings. I'm less distractible with the reduced blue light. Not sure why though.
- vdnkh 10y agoI use f.lux on a rather high setting 24/7 at work, most of the day at home (where I have better lighting), and at night on my phone. Using it all day at work with the 20/20/20* rule has greatly reduced my eye stress. * I made a simple website using the Notifications API which reminds you every 20 minutes to take an eye break. https://johnbartos.github.io/eyebreak/ https://johnbartos.github.io/eyebreak/
- moritzsimon 10y agoTwo more situations where this spectrum and intensity is in use: on stages (music,TV) the old PAR lights are nowadays nearly fully replaced by strong led spots shining directly on the actors. Still you don't spend 22h on stage of course. The other situation would be artificial gardening system where a heavy bended light spectrum is used to grow lettuce etc.
- AhtiK 10y agoSo the blue SAD lamps like this would be especially dangerous. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klarstein-Therapy-Generous-Display-Application/dp/B00PLSWOVO https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klarstein-Therapy-Generous-Display-... I have this exact same model and it has been working great, too bad if carrying a significant risk.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- adamwong246 10y agoraise your hand if this article prompted you to lower the color temperature of your monitor via f.lux
- Torkel 10y agoLink to full paper via sci-hub: http://twin.sci-hub.cc/ac1a63745360991b7b9a42390ab3faa8/krigel2016.pdf http://twin.sci-hub.cc/ac1a63745360991b7b9a42390ab3faa8/krig... (Sorry if this is a dupe and hope this link is persistent, I scanned the thread and saw some people lacking access and didn't see any sci-hub post)
- rsi_oww 10y agoShould I worry that I've been using this daily for a year, per my sleep doctor, for delayed sleep phase syndrome? Philips GoLITE BLU - https://www.amazon.com/Philips-GoLITE-BLU-Energy-Light/dp/B00M3SGCUE/ https://www.amazon.com/Philips-GoLITE-BLU-Energy-Light/dp/B0... 30 minutes a day at the highest setting...
- joveian 10y agoOne area where this can matter more than standard lighting is light therapy devices. I have a circadian sleep disorder and for those light therapy is one of the few medically recommended treatments (it is also recommended in the winter for seasonal affective disorder). There are two basic types of light therapy devices, a bright light that you set on the table nearby and a less bright light in a visor that you put near your eyes. I think LEDs are universal in the visor style ones and quite common in the table ones. The blue spectrum is more effective than other wavelengths so they are frequently focused on the blue spectrum although some of the table ones are white light. They are only supposed to be used for a half hour or hour at most. I just tried for a couple of weeks a visor style light that is just over 500 lux at 500nm dominant wavelength (blue-green; it looks green and is a longer wavelength than most such devices). While it didn't seem super bright, it did seem fairly bright and actually caused me mild pain, similar to what bright light occasionally causes. The lower 315 lux level did the same at first. I started with that a few days and it seemed like my eyes adapted quite a bit so I moved to the higher level. I got spooked after noticing the pain later in the day one day after using the visor on high in the morning, so I haven't tried the lower level again to see if that still causes pain. The manufacturer said that in studies about 3% of people report that problem. Anyway, it seems to me that my use of the visor might be similar to the lighting in this study. I haven't noticed this issue with other artificial lighting, although I haven't been around LEDs that much that I know of, mostly compact flourescents. The closest is a led light alarm clock that I have stared at at close range for a while and is listed at 300 lux, although I'm not sure if that is what I am getting even a few inches away. The visor light does have a 50-166 hz pulse so that could be related; I'm not sure about the light alarm, but I never noticed that flicker the way the visor does. Anway, 500 lux at eye level at least can be quite a bit different than normal lighting.
- fsiefken 10y agoHow does this relate to staring at OLED at LED screens? Are they potentially dangerous as well? Could you prevent harm by running a tool like F.lux and lower the brightness?
- hackuser 10y agoEverything is potentially dangerous. The article reported an experiment done on albino rats; that's not much indication of a serious risk to people; it only means that someone should look into it further.
- joaomagalhaes 10y agoJust a word of caution not to draw precipitated conclusions since this is a study in preclinical phase tested on rats. Of course it means something and requires further study but just wanted to emphasise the fact that it wasn't applied on humans.
- edwhitesell 10y agoNormally, I would not have thought much about this kind of an article. But, I happen to be wandering around CES today and there was a booth somewhere that was promoting some glasses to protect your eyes from LED lights. If I happen across that booth again, I'll stop and look.
- a_gopher 10y agoUsing a yellow whiteboard marker, simply colour in the LED's face. Problem solved.
- redsummer 10y agoWhen new phones or displays come out, the manufacturer will invariably brag about the increased color gamut. Before I get blinded with science, it's time to adjust my f.lux and night shift settings.
- xwowsersx 10y agoCan someone please tl;dr this? I seriously couldn't make it through the abstract.
- wonko1 10y agoReminds me of recent results using 40Hz blinking LEDs to treat Alzheimer's: http://news.mit.edu/2016/visual-stimulation-treatment-alzheimer-1207 http://news.mit.edu/2016/visual-stimulation-treatment-alzhei... I often fall into the trap of thinking that light at normally encountered levels has essentially no effect. That's obviously not the case though.
- smaili 10y agoDoes anyone know if this applies to organic LEDs as well?
- simonhughes22 10y agoWhat implications does this have for VR glasses like the Vive and the rift. Those use OLED displays?
- dbg31415 10y agoCar headlights seem to have gotten much brighter in recent years. I know this is about domestic lighting, but... any concerns about car headlights and streetlights? Those tend to be much much brighter than indoor LEDs.
- gumby 10y agoLooking through the literature it looks like it might be Dry AMD (macular degeneration) which is bad because it's currently untreatable. Wet AMD has some treatments available.
- EJTH 10y agoI always knew blue LEDs was bad for you. But its nice to have confirmation of this. Blue LEDs can seem almost blinding.
- thenomad 10y agoHaving now skimmed through the paper, there's one very reassuring thing that no-one's pointed out yet: Long-term exposure to LED at 500 lux, in cyclic (light/dark) conditions induced retinal damage only in albino rats but not in pigmented rats So, at household levels WITHOUT artificially dilated eyes, only the albino rats (who one would assume are more sensitive to light) suffered any damage. Given that, as another commenter mentions, rats are likely to be more sensitive to light than humans anyway, this looks like it's a reassuring rather than concerning result. Just don't artificially dilate your eyes then stare at a super-bright LED bank for 24 hours!
- barinvon 10y ago"Just don't artificially dilate your eyes then stare at a super-bright LED bank for 24 hours!" Looks like my weekend plans are shot
- threepipeproblm 10y agoI think it's important to recognize that this is far from the only study pointing to this, and that similar problems are associated with CFL's. For example, here is a 2014 study, "White Light–Emitting Diodes (LEDs) at Domestic Lighting Levels and Retinal Injury in a Rat Model" http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1307294/ http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1307294/ This article cites numerous studies in the quotes section ( scroll down) http://lowvision.preventblindness.org/daily-living-2/artificial-lighting-and-the-blue-light-hazard/ http://lowvision.preventblindness.org/daily-living-2/artific... Links to eye toxicity, macular degeneration, and blindness are not the only problems associated with new lighting either, which tends to be very heavy in the blue components. Lots of research links usage of blue-heavy white lighting to damaging circadian rhythms, which can lead to significant health effects. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110912092554.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110912092554.h... This year the AMA issued a public safety warning regarding LED street lights because of the association with circardian rhythm disruption and related health effects. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/21/health/led-streetlights-ama/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/21/health/led-streetlights-ama/in... Paul Jaminet has stated that circadian rhythm disruption has been more strongly linked to cancer than any food study, ever. I use the GE Align PM LED bulbs, available on Amazon, which cut out most of the blue frequencies and largely address both sets of problems. Highly recommended. https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-93842-350-Lumen-Dimmable/dp/B00PLR3M0M/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8 https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-93842-350-Lumen-Dimmable/... EDITED to correct summary of AMA announcement.
- Little_John 10y agoIt was a Q-Switched, Xenon pumped, Neodymium Garnet laser intended for Photo-retinal Welding. This pulse laser was so powerful that at discharge through the microscope it could create a white spark in mid-air; the so-called waist area. I Hired on to CooperVision as a Developmental Tech, I inadvertantly grounded a flash-circuit while the laser exit face aligned to my eyes. The Fluke Meter actually bounced a centimeter into the air at discharge, and I saw a moderate orange glow for a bare instant. Immediately after, and today, when I gaze into a clear blue sky, I see a "small dounut shadow" of two to three degrees in my mid to lower right field. The contrast of the Donut image has decreased over the years but decades later, I see it. What do you Know? I got shot with a surgical welder. -No worries though, No worries at all.
- Little_John 10y agoIt was a Q-Switched, Xenon pumped, Neodymium Garnet laser intended for Photo-retinal Welding. This pulse laser was so powerful that at discharge through the microscope it could create a white spark in mid-air; the so-called waist area. I Hired on to CooperVision as a Developmental Tech, I inadvertantly grounded a flash-circuit while the laser exit face aligned to my eyes. The Fluke Meter actually bounced a centimeter into the air at discharge, and I saw a moderate orange glow for a bare instant. Immediately after, and today, when I gaze into a clear blue sky, I see a "small dounut shadow" of two to three degrees in my mid to lower right field. The contrast of the Donut image has decreased over the years but decades later, I see it. What do you Know? I got shot with a surgical welder. -No worries though, No worries at all.