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How Unix made it to the top
- dispose13432 10y agoI expected this to be about how Unix became so popular (_top_ of popularity charts), not to the top (_CEO_).
- hyperhopper 10y agoWell that was the intended wordplay. Although it is a shame that for end users Unix is still nowhere near the top of any popularity metric.
- nine_k 10y agoUnix kernel is hugely popular: think of the millions of Android devices. Unix userland, not so much, outside the software engineering community.
- milankragujevic 10y agoI don't like this argument, because Android is not developed openly and the kernel itself is a fork which lags behind the mainstream Linux development until Google implements the changes, which users see when they throw away their phone because Samsung/HTC/Xiaomi/Ulefone/Whatever doesn't want to update the phone or Verizon/ATT/Telenor/T-Mobile, etc., doesn't want to push the update because they branded the phone so that means its theirs but not their responsibility.
- lisivka 10y agoAndroid can be run on vanilla kernel with few patches: http://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-7-2013/general/android-running-vanilla-4-5-kernel-t3351816 http://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-7-2013/general/android... . Android apps can be run on GNU/Linux without emulation when required libraries and daemons are available (on compatible architecture, of course).
- squarefoot 10y agoTrue, but how many devices will allow you to install and use that system without being forced to add blobs?
- lisivka 10y agoVery few, if any. Enthusiasts need to reverse engineer binary blobs and write open source drivers, as usual.
- lisivka 10y agoLinux is not UNIX. GNU/Linux is POSIX (common standard for UNIX'es) compatible, so it is UNIX compatible. Android/Linux is not POSIX compatible, however compatible library can be installed to Android/Linux to make it POSIX compatible, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27604455/is-android-posix-compatible http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27604455/is-android-posix... . *BSD, MacOS X, iOS are UNIX'es, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) .
- zokula 10y agoNo current open source *BSD is anymore UNIX than Linux is.
- pjmlp 10y agoI doubt the BSD developers that are part of BSD since the days before the lawsuit will agree with you.
- AsyncAwait 10y agoThey may not, but there's so little original UNIX code in *BSD these days that it does not matter, in fact that's one of the main reasons they won the lawsuit in the first place.
- lisivka 10y agoI just opened my Red Book and reread «Short history of UNIX». Berkley University bought license for AT&T UNIX[1] in 1977. They started to develop their own software for UNIX and distribute it, so this variant of UNIX is called BSD. Then they decide to remove and rewrite original AT&T code, due to license and associated costs, and released 4.3BSD[2], which then used by BSD flavors. So BSD is UNIX, but it contains no AT&T code today. [1] http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/index.html http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/index.html [2] https://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/category/4-3-bsd/ https://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/category/4-3-bs...
- hasenj 10y agoDon't iPhones and iPads also have a UNIX kernel?
- lisivka 10y agoIt's complicated. Original UNIX by AT&T was newer open-sourced. BSD (Berkley Software Distribution) was opensource distribution of user programs for UNIX (like TCP/IP stack, vi editor, etc.), used by original UNIX, with proportions 20% of AT&T code and 80% of BSD code. So technically, BSD is(0.8) not(0.2) UNIX. FreeBSD is branched from BSD code, so it is(0.8) not(0.2) UNIX too. Apple MacOS X is based on FreeBSD code (and lot of other code), and it certified as UNIX compatible, so MacOS X can be named as UNIX. iOS is based on MacOS X, so iOS is UNIX too.
- JonathonW 10y agoIf you want to get technical about it, the Mac kernel itself isn't a traditional UNIX or BSD kernel; XNU (which, conveniently enough, stands for "X is not UNIX") is a hybrid composed of the Mach microkernel, some FreeBSD components, and Apple's own driver model. The system as a whole is able to brand itself as UNIX compliant, though, because it complies with the Single UNIX Specification. That spec is concerned about userspace behavior, not kernel or implementation, and you don't have to include any actual UNIX source code to be able to brand your OS as a "UNIX" according to the spec and trademark guidelines.
- lisivka 10y agoYep, XNU is Mach microkernel + FreeBSD kernel. Some features of XNU are even ported back to FreeBSD kernel. IMHO, that is enough to draw direct connection from XNU to original UNIX (without ™), unlike Linux kernel.
- TickleSteve 10y agoMach microkernel + FreeBSD userland.... not kernel. BSD is a 'personality' layer.
- deaddodo 10y agoAndroid doesn't run a Unix kernel. Hell, Linux isn't even all that compatible with Unix outside of POSIX. http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/pdf/ch-intro.pdf http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/pdf/ch-intro.pdf
- squarefoot 10y ago"Unix kernel is hugely popular: think of the millions of Android devices." You probably meant Linux, not Unix. Unix is an entire class of operating systems, not a kernel. Nitpicking aside, the huge problem here is that popularity means nothing if the user is not aware of what he/she is using, so I would rephrase that as "the Linux kernel is hugely widespread ...". There is still a big problem though: Android is mostly closed, at least all vital device drivers are, so that you have no chances to build a working non Android environment on newer devices or patch old ones, move an installation from a device to a different one etc. Having a Linux kernel does not help in this context since all benefits the FOSS community infused into the system were stripped away. I would dare to say that telling people that Android contains a Linux kernel is even dangerous to the Linux image.
- emmelaich 10y ago> he huge problem here is that popularity means nothing if the user is not aware of what he/she is using I'd say that doesn't matter at all. The person running Internet Explorer or Microsoft Edge doesn't know they're using a VMS workalike/derivative/successor either.
- pjmlp 10y agoHave you ever used the NDK? Android is all about Java and there is only a very thin subset of native APIs that are available, including POSIX ones. https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis.html https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis.html Starting with Android 7, calling anything outside of that list will terminate the application. Google could replace the kernel for something else, while keeping those NDK APIs and only OEMs writing drivers would notice.
- dispose13432 10y ago>Starting with Android 7, calling anything outside of that list will terminate the application. Google could replace the kernel for something else, while keeping those NDK APIs and only OEMs writing drivers would notice And they're planning on doing precisely that with Fuchsia
- user5994461 10y agoUnix or Linux? Unix is kinda dead by all metrics.
- elchief 10y agoya no one uses mac or BSD
- user5994461 10y agoIndeed, noone uses BSD. Is mac considered as a Unix? I think it'd be considered as its own thing by now.
- riffic 10y agoYes, macOS is (or OS X has) been considered a Unix: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/1489/is-mac-os-x-unix https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/1489/is-mac-os-x-un...
- 3131s 10y agoPretty sure HN runs on FreeBSD.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- kgwgk 10y agoUNIX® Certified Products http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
- devsatish 10y agoUnix and thus Linux!
- cperciva 10y agoHow do you define "popularity"? UNIX is found in many devices end users don't think of as being "computers" at all. The best software is the software users don't even realize is there, because it just works.
- coldtea 10y agoWell, the meaningful way for UNIX (and Linux) to succeed as a popular product, according to the aspirations of its proponents, was on the desktop. It wasn't just about the server side back then (late 90s, early 00s) it was all about taking over Windows. If somebody uses some hardware product (e.g. set top box) and doesn't know its Linux, then it's no big win for the Linux community. And it's not just necessarily that users don't realize it's there because "it just works", either. The set top box, for example, can be buggy or crappy but just not provide neither a way to dive in and fix it, nor branding related to Linux.
- cperciva 10y agoIf somebody uses some hardware product (e.g. set top box) and doesn't know its Linux, then it's no big win for the Linux community. I have to disagree there. It may not be a marketing win, but that doesn't mean that there are no other benefits. The fact that the PlayStation 4 runs FreeBSD has resulted in a large number of improvements becoming available to us; whether Johnny knows that his games are running on a daemonic operating system is of very little relevance.
- bluejekyll 10y ago> daemonic operating system I've never seen someone refer to it like that before. Awesome.
- dTal 10y ago>the PlayStation 4 runs FreeBSD wait, what? Awesome.
- JonnieCache 10y ago>The fact that the PlayStation 4 runs FreeBSD has resulted in a large number of improvements becoming available to us Is there a writeup of this anywhere? If stuff has been backported/upstreamed/whatever from the PS4 to the freeBSD kernel that would truly be living the dream!
- kahrkunne 10y agoAm I the only one who doesn't really consider that a shame? As a happy Linux desktop user here (considering switching to FreeBSD but switching is intimidating :|), I don't really care that much what other people use.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dhosek 10y agoI learned TeX back in 1984 because I wanted a word processor which would put footnotes at the bottom of the page.
- greglindahl 10y agoTeX was and is available on a large number of OSes. I was very happy being to run a 'large' TeX instance on my Atari ST with 1 MB of ram, it could easily typeset my undergraduate thesis.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoIndeed. TeX later moved to Pascal, but was originally written in SAIL for use on WAITS. GLS ported it to ITS (the first ever port of TeX), and also was responsible for lobbying Knuth to make it Turing-Complete. Man, is there any part of modern computing that doesn't have GLS's fingerprints on it?
- more_original 10y agoFor anyone else wondering: GLS = Guy L. Steele (this took me quite a while)
- TrumpVoter12345 10y agoI learned TeX because it was fucking gorgeous.
- old-gregg 10y ago> It didn't seem like a very good idea for us to be keeping records from > the inner sanctum of the corporation on a computer where most everybody > had super-user privileges. A call to the PR guy convinced him of the > wisdom of keeping such things on their own premises. And so the CEO's > office bought a Unix system. ... and this is exactly how it works today with SaaS subscriptions, except root-privileged people don't even work at the same company and (frequently) aren't as capable as the folks at Bell Labs.
- 0xCMP 10y agoI think something like sandstorm is a good balance between this though. Easy enough to setup and you can use whatever cloud software available for it. The feel of shared-hosting, but the control of self-hosting, all in one easy to use package.
- newsat13 10y agoI do like cloudron better here for self-hosting. To each his own.
- sudhirj 10y agoIsn't that why most smart companies have a self hosted enterprise version as well?
- coldtea 10y agoYou'd be surprised.
- paulddraper 10y agoAWS, Dropbox, Google, and Salesforce being "not smart companies".
- hyperpape 10y agoGoogle, at least, has added a lot of internal controls.
- flomo 10y agoWow. I have to say that it is funny how you hear the legendary tales of computing history over and over again and then some little crucial minor details like "we sold the CEO's office on it" eventually slip out. Ok, that was important at AT&T, but not really why Unix currently rules the universe. Due to anti-trust settlements and cheap licensing, and copyright foibles, Unix was the cheap midrange choice for students and non-enterprise users. After a lot of pain, Unix eventually evolved into an "open standard". And that eventually evolved into an "open source" standard with Linux (and BSD, MacOS, etc.) To quote DEC's Ken Olsen[1]: > [UNIX is] great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it’s great for interchanging programs between different machines. ... It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They’ll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. And that is why your cell phone runs Unix and not VMS. [1] http://sinix.org/blog/?p=16 http://sinix.org/blog/?p=16
- ue_ 10y agoWhat sort of things could/can VMS do that Unix couldn't? I know almost nothing about computer history.
- snarfy 10y agoIn VMS, revision control was built into the file system. It was easy to retrieve older versions of files. Unix didn't have anything like that until rcs was invented, and even then it was a tool, not something built in like what VMS had.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago"line numbers and vanity" would be a great name for a rock band. Just sayin'.
- plq 10y ago> Other documents began to accumulate in their directory. By the time we became aware of it, the hoard came to include minutes of AT&T board meetings. It didn't seem like a very good idea for us to be keeping records from the inner sanctum of the corporation on a computer where most everybody had super-user privileges. I wonder how many meeting minutes, price lists, product specs, supplier agreements, etc. etc. are currently sitting on Google's, Amazon's, Dropbox's servers now...
- idm 10y ago> Just as one hears of cars chosen for their cupholders, so were these users converted to Unix for trivial reasons: line numbers and vanity. This is why Jobs was the visionary. "[L]ine numbers and vanity" are real-world problems with technical solutions. When you bridge technology into the real world, to create solutions in real lives, then you create value. It's painful to consider that something like UNIX could be worthless, but it was worthless ... until it improved somebody's life. This is something I have not fully learned yet.
- oliv__ 10y agoThe real world is the ultimate judge. It's not an easy thing to do, but when you fully realize and accept this, you can then learn to harness it and in turn acquire infinite power to change things.