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If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically
by aresant 10y ago
If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs:
1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc.
2) They are less flexible - they are less willing to relocate, they have kids to pick up instead of "beer hour bonding", unwilling to run the same 60 hour gauntlet that a 25 year old can etc.
3) They have less primary & secondary education relevant to today's enterprise issues. In the specific case of "marketers" - like TryOldster is pitching - the best people will learn anything, but anybody over 50 years old spent their professional training + formative 20s thinking about television, radio, and print - not paid search, mobile advertising, and social.
That we're at the top of HN again with another "hire older people" post (recently we saw OldGeekJobs) demonstrates there's a huge unmet need within this cohort.
I don't think a job-board is the right solution to this problem because the pitch on TryOldster does nothing to alleviate the three principal concerns.
My unasked, probably asinine business advice would be to turn this flow of traffic into a training / education platform where you can VALIDATE and address the very real, foundational concerns of hiring managers around this cohort, and suddenly you've got a machine that can get motivated people trained and placed.
- adamqureshi 10y agoLet me try. Send me your info i'd love to chat about it.
- wtvanhest 10y agoThere are also other challenges that may not end up in a survey at all. For example, the hiring manager could feel insecure hiring someone older than they are.
- azeirah 10y agoI attended a lecture last week, older people were one of the topics that got touched. Instead of having old employees teaching the younger, he told a story of a business requiring old people to receive fresh young employees as their mentor.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jhayward 10y agoI'd like to hear more. What are the benefits of this arrangement? Is it merely an organizational statement that over-30's are worth less and need remedial training? What was the rationale? What was the group discussion like? What do you think about it?
- azeirah 10y agoThere's not much more, it was a very general lecture touching on many topics, it was merely an anecdote.
- azeirah 10y agoIs it merely an organizational statement that over-30's are worth less and need remedial training? No that was not the point. The point is that new employees, students, practically live in a different world that older employees. The point of the system was that students would teach older employees how to operate within this "new world". It's an approach to make sure that older employees don't get stuck in their ways of thinking.
- jhayward 10y agoInteresting, thanks. A mentor is a senior, more experienced person who assists the development of a junior person with advice and guidance. This seems to be something else, more of a cultural integration idea. What kind of organization is it (what's the business).
- user5994461 10y ago> I don't think a job-board is the right solution to this problem because the pitch on TryOldster does nothing to alleviate the three principal concerns. jobboard = take money from company who puts job ad It's never been about solving the problem. It's about making money off the problem ;)
- arkitaip 10y agoMaking money off the problem = 1M Solving the problem = 1B
- user5994461 10y agoThinking it's a tech solvable problem = 1M mistake.
- rhizome 10y agoI wonder what an effective approach would be for 40+'ers who don't have kids or other outside constraints. I'm thinking they wouldn't necessarily want to bring it up in an interview, since familial status is a protected class and employers may blanch at statements along these lines.
- LanceH 10y agoAs someone with kids, I almost always bring it up, so they can avoid wasting my time if they don't want me to have a life.
- bettyx1138 10y agoi'm 51 (altho i probably pass as 40-something) and if during an interview it feels right, i'll mention that i'm child-free and unmarried (thus free to travel and work flexibly i try to say implicitly). i know employers aren't supposed to take those things into account but i think they do anyway.
- mgkimsal 10y agoIt's something I've mentioned in interviews because, yeah, I think it can make a difference in some cases. (married, but no kids, wife works from home, wife travels some independently of me, etc)
- lgieron 10y agoOn the other hand, a family makes you much more dependent on the job, which is what employers want too.
- pc86 10y agoI look at the skillset between when I was 25 and now (30) and it's astounding. I can't imagine what the difference between 50 and 25 will be. If you're hiring 40-60 year olds you cannot simply hire a 25 year old and get an "acceptable tradeoff of competency" unless you didn't need anything close to that competency in the first place. Also if you're 50 and are relying on a new job's retirement program you're probably in for a rude awakening about when you can retire. That should be pretty close to set by that point. If it's not, the difference between matching 4% or 3%, or 75% match v. 100% is not going to be shaving more than a few months off your working career. > They have less primary & secondary education relevant to today's enterprise issues. I'm pretty knowledgeable about paid search and social but I don't think my Political Science degree has anything to do with that. To imply that someone's age precludes them from understanding paid search, mobile advertising, or social is the very definition of ageism.
- epalmer 10y agoI'm 63 with a BS in Chemistry and MS in Environmental Systems Engineer. I was a student teacher of microbiology when I was in graduate school. I started coding fortran in HS about 1969 or 1970. > I'm pretty knowledgeable about paid search and social but I don't think my Political Science degree has anything to do with that. To imply that someone's age precludes them from understanding paid search, mobile advertising, or social is the very definition of ageism. I run 134+ branded sites (and maybe 20+ other misc sites) some of which do extensive search marketing (extensive for a university). I am a digital native as much as the next person regardless of age.
- btilly 10y agoThese may be the reasons that hiring managers give. But they are not necessarily the real reasons. Most managers have trouble recognizing that their job is to make sure stuff is happening well, and not to be in charge. Older people are more likely to bring relevant experience and knowledge to bear on problems, and therefore to question authority. This knowledge and experience tends to be quite valuable, however it is easier for insecure people to discount it than to process it and incorporate the applicable bits. The result is that it is more comfortable and easier for most managers to find grounds to ignore and discount experienced people than it is to find value in it. Which becomes a competitive advantage for those companies who "get it".
- parennoob 10y ago> higher related costs like healthcare for a family How exactly is this a concern for a hiring manager? I thought a company's employees were insured as a pool. In any case, discriminating against someone because of their healthcare status is pretty scummy (in my opinion), but I don't even understand why this is a concern, let alone a legitimate one.
- mitchty 10y agoWouldn't that also be illegal age discrimination for anyone above 40?
- astockwell 10y agoIn the US employers typically share in the expense of health insurance, so the more dependents an employee has, generally speaking, the more their (non-salary) benefits cost the employer.
- jasode 10y agoFor a hiring manager at a large company (10000+ employees), that interviewer probably won't mentally compute the healthcare costs of a candidate. Although even large companies like AOL were not immune to high medical costs -- even if they inadvertently presented it in a distasteful way.[1] However, for small companies (e.g. 10 employees), the premiums to fund the health insurance pool will change drastically depending on which employees it has. For example, let's say after a candidate interview, the employer (owner) checks Facebook and notices the wife just had a premature baby or birth defect, etc. Let's say that preemie baby's medical costs is $46000 more[2] (or $1 million more in AOL's case[1]) than a normal healthy baby. We as society may want the employer to ignore that costlier number but we should'be be surprised if he'd rather not pay it and hire another cheaper candidate. Yes, it's illegal discrimination, but we have to be realistic about self-interest -- especially when the employer's (real) reason for rejection can't be proven in court. If you're bringing in big profits like Google Inc, you have the luxury of not having to make distasteful decisions with finite amounts of money in regards to employee healthcare costs. [1] Slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/02/tim_armstrong_blames_distressed_babies_for_aol_benefit_cuts_he_s_talking.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/02/tim_a... BI: http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-tim-armstrong-knew-about-his-employees-distressed-babies-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-tim-armstrong-knew-... [2] http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2009/03/17/tiniest-babies-carry-biggest-costs http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-he...
- maerF0x0 10y ago> unwilling to run the same 60 hour gauntlet that a 25 year old _can_ etc. Older people _can_ run 60 hour gauntlets. We're just wise enough to know that it leads to no good outcome.
- enraged_camel 10y agoI think it's a matter of degree. A two week crunch time every 6 months is OK, maybe even beneficial. Every month though? Not OK, and definitely detrimental.
- paulcole 10y ago> A two week crunch time every 6 months is OK, maybe even beneficial Being overworked nearly 10% of the time is not "OK"
- drewrv 10y agoDepends how often you're underworked.
- chadgeidel 10y agoIf people are overworked 10% and underworked 10% (or any other similar number) that's an "project management smell". I wouldn't want to work there. Unless they offer tons of vacation. :-)
- Vinnl 10y agoI think I dislike underworking as much as overworking.
- bitwize 10y agoThat wisdom makes you of negative business value to your manager, since he still believes 60-hour gauntlets are an intrinsic part of being on time and under budget. Hence, you won't get hired.
- rmason 10y agoYou're not valuing what they bring in experience. If you have seen multiple cycles of successful projects and failures you learn patterns. We tried it like that before and this is what will happen. But instead if you do it this way you will be more successful. Some bosses may not like the push back and see it as questioning their authority. However if they can overlook that the teams they manage will be more successful. If you're unemployed in IT over 50, especially in Silicon Valley, you're going to have to adjust your salary expectations down. The older programmer may not want to work for less but it is far better than the alternative.
- beachstartup 10y agothe boom in "old geek" job boards is the market correcting itself. smaller companies have known about it for a LONG time, because we don't have access to the genius-level kids that churn out code 80 hours a week. tough luck for us, too bad, so sad. our team is exclusively 35-60. i wouldn't hire a non-genius 25 year old to run anything critical. nope, no way. sorry, kids.
- sudosteph 10y agoI hope you don't use AWS then. Just because you don't see 25 year-olds as competent adults doesn't mean that plenty of other places aren't using them in critical roles to great effect. Though maybe you have a really loose definition of genius?
- beachstartup 10y ago> I hope you don't use AWS then wait, how'd you know??
- Shanea93 10y agoThat's just another form of age discrimination and is just as bad as the people who refuse to hire old people.
- beachstartup 10y agoyeah, i guess it is.
- jonathankoren 10y agoI'm glad to see that both hours worked, as opposed to tasks completed is the metric to use, and that booze time is a job requirement.
- Bahamut 10y agoBeing one step removed from the hiring manager at work, the one thing I have noticed about some older candidates is sometimes their background/resume/performance demonstrates to me that some just don't show an aptitude for learning quickly in technical problem spaces. Personally, I don't particularly care about how old someone is, but I absolutely need to see the ability to learn (in addition to the standard things of integrity, good problem solving ability, is not a jerk, etc.). My company even trends older than a lot in our industry (I might be average at 32 here), especially for a smaller one.
- ap22213 10y agoMy CTO likes to hire cheap. 90% of the time he passes over more experienced candidates for those with only 0-4 years of experience. He says it's because of the big cost savings. But, internally, we think it's very short-sighted and a waste. Almost always, the less experienced candidate has to be guided. They rarely have sufficient experience to be full-stack, and over half of the time they are on the average learning curve. That means that they're only 0-50% on the way to mastery. And, that has the unintended consequence of dragging down the productivity of everyone. Worse, they come in with very strong opinions and aren't pragmatists. They lack understanding of trade offs, because that flexibility comes only from years of this work. I suspect that the CTO (and many like him) likes to hire people who know less than him (i.e. B players). Luckily, I don't report to the CTO.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- mempko 10y agoSo the TLDR is old people are the problem? I see....
- whybroke 10y agoAnd so hiring managers simply reject older candidates out of hand. No matter what level of training/education the candidate has (and likely his existing skill set far exceeds the value of a ruby boot-camp), the preconception will preclude it ever being seen at certain shops. Rather than pretending there is no ageism and it's all the candidate's fault, what is needed is a list of companies that simply will not hire people over 35. That way we can all stop wasting eachother's time.
- JustSomeNobody 10y agoI read #2 about kids and beer bonding and it really irks the heck out of me. This is our industry? A bunch of selfish immatures? Nice.
- ijustdontgetit 10y agoYeah it irks me when people with kids think they are better than people who don't too. ;)
- cesarbs 10y agoAppropriate username? They never said they thought they were better.
- GrinningFool 10y agoThey didn't, though it's certainly possible to read that into their words.
- JustSomeNobody 10y agoSo, by saying the behavior irks me I am saying they think they're better than me? That doesn't make a lot of sense. They could be completely indifferent.
- Chris2048 10y agoUnless you think drinking beer is selfish, then it would be assumed that not having kids is selfish.
- cesarbs 10y agoYeah, fuck that bullshit. Irked the heck out of me too. I hope it's not too common.
- flurdy 10y agoTrue, but I never undervalue the conversations that happen in the pub after work. (NDAs after all don't apply if people hold a pint or so it seems.) There just is no need to hang around for long nor do it every night. But it is beneficial to show your face occasionally. I got 2 small kids that I try to get home to at a decent hour most of the week, but I also try to go for a quick pint with my team once or twice a week (depends on the team..) I got it down to a fine art of fitting in just one maybe two pints then run to catch my train so that I am only home 30m-1hr later than normal. Also being in London with several pubs across the road and a train station 10 minutes walk away helps. The other bit about unwilling to do 60 hour gauntlet now as a 40 year old compared to me at 25 is bollox though. I didn't do it then and I don't do it now.
- matwood 10y ago#1 should not matter. Market rate is the rate I should expect. Just because I have 20 years of experience does not mean I'm going to get my rate for a Jr PHP job. The complaint is more likely that most companies do not need many people with that level of experience. The old phrase too many generals and not enough soldiers comes to mind. #2 is changing because we are entering the baby-boomer phase of IT. It was recent that that there were not many people programming, and then the field blew up with tons of young people coming out of college. Those young people are now turning into older people. Where I work now we have a median age for the IT staff in the high 30s. I don't think anyone is under 30 anymore. #3 can be true of anyone, depending on how well they have managed their career. Sadly, I have interviewed people with '5 years experience' who learned their job in 3-6 mos. and have just continued to do the same job for 5 years. Their actual experience ends up not being much more than a recent college graduate.
- bubblesocks 10y agoYour point #3 is the very definition of ageism. It assumes that since I grew up before the Internet, before cell phones, before CDs even, that I cannot understand any of this newfangled mobile and social nonsense. It also assumes that I haven't continued my education. The fact is that I'm currently the architect and sole backend engineer for a mobile app that relies heavily on data mining, search technologies, and social media marketing. I'm also finishing my current degree (one class to go), and then I'll be starting another one right after that. I'll be 50 soon, and I'm a hell of a lot smarter and more capable now than I was 25 years ago. Having been 25 before, I think 25-year-olds tend to think they know everything, and make the rash assumption that people older than them don't. The truth tends to be quite the opposite though.
- innocentoldguy 10y ago@aresant - The problem isn't with us older programmers, marketers, etc. It is with the ignorant young, who believe that they've achieved the apex of their careers, experience, and intellect in their mid-twenties.
- ajmurmann 10y ago>"They have less primary & secondary education relevant to today's enterprise issues" What primary and secondary education that gets out of date matters much for a software developer? Algorithms, complexity etc. don't change much. The technology changes so much and is do vast that what fresh graduates know won't help much. The only thing I as a hiring manager value about a university degree is that it signals that you have enough discipline to see something through even if you don't always like it. There are plenty of people who can't or don't want to do that. If you can't do that no amount of smarts is gonna make me want to hire you.
- pugworthy 10y agoI find #2 rather amusing and incorrect, at least as far as the "beer hour" part goes. I'm 55, my youngest is 24 and married. It's all the guys in their 30's that have to pick up their kids. Those of us with grown kids have tons of time, it's the 30 somethings that have kids to pick up.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rwallace 10y agoI agree with your points 1 and 2. Not sure what you mean by your last paragraph, though. Train who to do what? Old people to stop expecting to have money after retiring? Managers to stop letting their monkey brains harm their company's profitability by having people work 60-hour weeks? Something else?
- LargeCompanies 10y agoUmm I guess your talking about startups and creative agencies... Ones that do not have a lot of money and their workforce is young. Oldsters its best to avoid that scene! Otherwise here in the east coast there are many of jobs in insurance and government, so much so more then of half the workforce is from India because they have the skills needed. For those not able to find work where are you located and what are you skilled in/how many years of experience?