7 ms·

What boggles my mind is that Facebook and Twitter are so very complicit by creating platforms for very granular targeting. You liked the Green Bay Packers, a g

by dluan 10y ago

What boggles my mind is that Facebook and Twitter are so very complicit by creating platforms for very granular targeting. You liked the Green Bay Packers, a gun owners group, an old 2008 Tea Party video, live 60 miles outside of a city and between 40-65? Not only is that profile there, Facebook ads will tell you almost exactly how large your reach is. This is nothing more than information arbitrage, and that the unit economics from advertisers hasn't quite caught up yet. It's what allowed Buzzfeed to exist in the first place, and ultra targeted startups like Teespring to grow, by training a small part of the crowd to become content creators. Moreover, traditional content creators like NYTimes don't even understand how much they are being undercut cents-to-words. You work out the funnel conversion, hope for some organic spread, and just pump things out. In a few years, this whole thing could be automated and AI generated to sway elections and public opinions. All you need is a training dataset for the targeted population's underlying views and beliefs. Imagine a startup trying to do this at scale, growing 10% week over week or something insane. At this point it's basically going to match the velocity of information across online networks of people. If this becomes a positive feedback loop where readers start to accelerate the spread after becoming radicalized - this becomes a social virus.

dluan 10y ago
"In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-historical-irony-of-facebooks-fake-news-problem-d744b05045fd#.xe5433ci0 https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-histo...
- threatofrain 10y ago
  Are the construction workers legislators of the road? Are actors the legislators of TV? Engineers do not own their efforts, and nor do construction workers or actors.
- atmosx 10y ago
  > "In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." Legislation is a rather complex sport that requires deep understanding of repercussions. I've seen rather skilled blockchain hackers talking economics, finance, politics and monetary policy. Their understanding of the current system (in terms of structure) was appalling. One needs to know the role of central banks before bashing them. I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-)
  - jstanley 10y ago
    > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. Sadly, so does your average legislator.
  - jnbiche 10y ago
    > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a few highly political engineers and/or software devs, almost all engineers I know insist on actually looking at the facts and evaluating them to the best of their ability, regardless of their political inclinations. This is a very rare characteristic in our society, and I can't help but to believe it's a very virtuous trait to have for a legislator. Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. Most engineers also have a pretty rare ability to listen to and to accept criticism. That's not always something legislators can boast of. I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific?
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.
      - jnbiche 10y ago
        > In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
- A_COMPUTER 10y ago
  >So, if you start thinking down that line, if someone threatened murder, you’d probably take that off the platform. If someone threatened assault, you’d take that off. But if a presidential candidate threatens to imprison an entire religious minority[...] It's easy to see what he's referring to here, and thus, he demonstrates that he's captured by fake news as well, and doesn't even recognize it. Half-truths or intentional misreading of things Trump has said are bread and butter of the left wing's fake news organizations. As a side note, he succinctly explains with what is wrong with a coincident push by the same people, banning of certain viewpoints off Twitter. Oh well it's a private company, and they can run it how they want! Your free speech is not being violated. But as he just admits, these private entities are extremely powerful brokers of speech, and what they decide stays and goes has a very large impact on society. But, consistency is not the strong suit of these people. It is entirely whatever argument works at the time.
amelius 10y ago
> this whole thing could be automated and AI generated to sway elections and public opinions But perhaps then AI could also be used to reveal such practices and shut them down.
- macns 10y ago
  I was about to comment on this and your take makes my point obsolete. Specifically I'd argue that this: All you need is a training dataset for the targeted population's underlying views and beliefs. is not as easy as it looks.
ryuker16 10y ago
Google beat them to it. Ad words is insane.... wanna target by individual town? Yes you can and more
- paganel 10y ago
  Not sure about that. For the last week or so I've been bombarded with Porsche ads in the YT videos I'm listening even though I will never have that much money in order to buy a new Porsche vehicle.
  - czep 10y ago
    > even though I will never have that much money in order to buy a new Porsche vehicle You're not meant to buy it. You're meant to be envious of it. The target market is purchasing your envy. See Veblen's _Theory of the Leisure Class_.
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    You probably viewed some Porsche stuff or did a search.
    - paganel 10y ago
      I sure did, as I looked at countless other car-related videos, just found it interesting that the system behind the Google ads couldn't "guess" that I don't really have the money to buy a Porsche (for starters I fly low-cost, which Google knows). But as the other commenter says, maybe I'm not meant to buy it, just to be envious of it, which I most certainly am.
      - ryuker16 10y ago
        Porsche probably pays more for ads due to much higher profit margins per each sale (way higher than Japanese cars). 1 Porsche buy might be worth 5 camera buyers in terms ofor profit. DUI lawyers make bank on each DUI case (5k-20k+) so the price per click averages near $50!!!!!
- 10y ago
reitoei 10y ago
> This is nothing more than information arbitrage, and that the unit economics from advertisers hasn't quite caught up yet.It's what allowed Buzzfeed to exist in the first place Would you mind expanding on the Buzzfeed part a little? I don't really understand.
api 10y ago
I've worried about exactly what you've described for years... to the point of wondering if "virtual reality" (broadly defined) might not be a great filter (Fermi paradox sense). What we are doing here is creating a collective fantasy world where the opportunity to steer the fantasy is traded on an open market. Now you get feedback loops and the whole thing spirals out into a kind of collective psychotic episode. If it goes far enough we end up with substantial parts of our population living in pure fantasy worlds... and making decisions that unfortunately affect the real one.

by dluan 10y ago

dluan 10y ago

"In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-historical-irony-of-facebooks-fake-news-problem-d744b05045fd#.xe5433ci0 https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-histo...

threatofrain 10y ago
Are the construction workers legislators of the road? Are actors the legislators of TV? Engineers do not own their efforts, and nor do construction workers or actors.
atmosx 10y ago
> "In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." Legislation is a rather complex sport that requires deep understanding of repercussions. I've seen rather skilled blockchain hackers talking economics, finance, politics and monetary policy. Their understanding of the current system (in terms of structure) was appalling. One needs to know the role of central banks before bashing them. I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-)
- jstanley 10y ago
  > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. Sadly, so does your average legislator.
- jnbiche 10y ago
  > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a few highly political engineers and/or software devs, almost all engineers I know insist on actually looking at the facts and evaluating them to the best of their ability, regardless of their political inclinations. This is a very rare characteristic in our society, and I can't help but to believe it's a very virtuous trait to have for a legislator. Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. Most engineers also have a pretty rare ability to listen to and to accept criticism. That's not always something legislators can boast of. I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific?
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.
    - jnbiche 10y ago
      > In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
A_COMPUTER 10y ago
>So, if you start thinking down that line, if someone threatened murder, you’d probably take that off the platform. If someone threatened assault, you’d take that off. But if a presidential candidate threatens to imprison an entire religious minority[...] It's easy to see what he's referring to here, and thus, he demonstrates that he's captured by fake news as well, and doesn't even recognize it. Half-truths or intentional misreading of things Trump has said are bread and butter of the left wing's fake news organizations. As a side note, he succinctly explains with what is wrong with a coincident push by the same people, banning of certain viewpoints off Twitter. Oh well it's a private company, and they can run it how they want! Your free speech is not being violated. But as he just admits, these private entities are extremely powerful brokers of speech, and what they decide stays and goes has a very large impact on society. But, consistency is not the strong suit of these people. It is entirely whatever argument works at the time.

amelius 10y ago

> this whole thing could be automated and AI generated to sway elections and public opinions But perhaps then AI could also be used to reveal such practices and shut them down.

macns 10y ago
I was about to comment on this and your take makes my point obsolete. Specifically I'd argue that this: All you need is a training dataset for the targeted population's underlying views and beliefs. is not as easy as it looks.

ryuker16 10y ago

Google beat them to it. Ad words is insane.... wanna target by individual town? Yes you can and more

paganel 10y ago
Not sure about that. For the last week or so I've been bombarded with Porsche ads in the YT videos I'm listening even though I will never have that much money in order to buy a new Porsche vehicle.
- czep 10y ago
  > even though I will never have that much money in order to buy a new Porsche vehicle You're not meant to buy it. You're meant to be envious of it. The target market is purchasing your envy. See Veblen's _Theory of the Leisure Class_.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  You probably viewed some Porsche stuff or did a search.
  - paganel 10y ago
    I sure did, as I looked at countless other car-related videos, just found it interesting that the system behind the Google ads couldn't "guess" that I don't really have the money to buy a Porsche (for starters I fly low-cost, which Google knows). But as the other commenter says, maybe I'm not meant to buy it, just to be envious of it, which I most certainly am.
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      Porsche probably pays more for ads due to much higher profit margins per each sale (way higher than Japanese cars). 1 Porsche buy might be worth 5 camera buyers in terms ofor profit. DUI lawyers make bank on each DUI case (5k-20k+) so the price per click averages near $50!!!!!
10y ago

reitoei 10y ago

> This is nothing more than information arbitrage, and that the unit economics from advertisers hasn't quite caught up yet.It's what allowed Buzzfeed to exist in the first place Would you mind expanding on the Buzzfeed part a little? I don't really understand.

api 10y ago

I've worried about exactly what you've described for years... to the point of wondering if "virtual reality" (broadly defined) might not be a great filter (Fermi paradox sense). What we are doing here is creating a collective fantasy world where the opportunity to steer the fantasy is traded on an open market. Now you get feedback loops and the whole thing spirals out into a kind of collective psychotic episode. If it goes far enough we end up with substantial parts of our population living in pure fantasy worlds... and making decisions that unfortunately affect the real one.