13 ms·

$2800 on a laptop with only 16GB RAM that you're going to run linux on anyway? If you're going to run Ubuntu, why not get a Lenovo for much less and with notab

by notadoc 10y ago

$2800 on a laptop with only 16GB RAM that you're going to run linux on anyway? If you're going to run Ubuntu, why not get a Lenovo for much less and with notably better legitimately "Pro" specs?

elchief 10y ago
Apple, maybe, actually fights for your privacy, while Lenovo definitely exploits it for money. Is there a secure enclave chip in Lenovo? Do you really trust their firmware?
- gruez 10y ago
  I don't see how that's a relevant point if you're going to do a fresh install anyways, unless you think lenovo is going to use something like vpro to spy on you without the OS.
  - jkestner 10y ago
    You're funding spyware, even if it's not on your own computer.
    - gruez 10y ago
      if you're referring to the superfish scandal, that piece of software wasn't developed by lenovo, it was developed by a third party, who paid lenovo to install it on their windows images. so i don't see how buying lenovo is "funding spyware".
      - tedunangst 10y ago
        More like Lenovo is taxing spyware, if you're going to install something other than Windows. Superfish only loses money on that transaction.
        jkestner 10y ago
        Well, that makes me feel better. Let me rephrase: By buying Lenovo, you're supporting a company that exchanges the privacy and security of unwitting customers for profit.
    - na85 10y ago
      It goes both ways. By buying Apple you're funding walled gardens and anti-choice design patterns, abusive labor practices including child labor and sweatshop conditions at their prime contractors, and collusion with NSA et al via PRISM.
      - grzm 10y ago
        I'm not arguing a defense of Apple here. Honest question: Are there differences between computer manufacturers in these regards that you're aware of?
      - givinguflac 10y ago
        This comment is just ridiculous. Apple does more than ANY manufacturer to improve working and supply chain conditions, anywhere, and most OEMs use the same facilities so blaming Apple specifically is doubly silly. How is the Mac even close to a walled garden or anti choice??? They allow Windows and any app you want to be installed.. What are you talking about? And please, do provide a source for your "collusion with NSA" accusation as every other statement and action by Apple shows the opposite.
        na85 10y ago
        Wow bud, sorry to have insulted your favourite company. They did in fact participate in PRISM, sorry to get you so worked up.
        xorxornop 10y ago
        Hmm, let's see: can't run OSX and variants thereof except on Apple hardware (despite acceptable to flawless hardware compatibility), can't build software for OSX and variants thereof except on a Mac (despite being perfectly workable), can't use a different app store on iOS...
        rarepostinlurkr 10y ago
        Wasn't this very post about clear hardware incompatibilities with the latest laptops and linux? Despite appearing to be the same, it's clearly not, otherwise it would simply 'just work'. The idea that a constrained team spent the time to intentionally 'break' some 'standard' functionality to prohibit linux from working is laughable as well.
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    They do. They've modified BIOS in the past to keep the spyware going.
- cyrus_ 10y ago
  Lenovo's malware scandal should certainly give you pause, but do note that it was only installed on its consumer laptops. Thinkpads were unaffected. Moreover, Apple is far from the cleanly ethical choice you seem to think it is. It blocks or impedes the installation of software that it has unilaterally decided is against its interests + takes a ludicrous percentage of revenue via the App Store.
  - voidlogic 10y ago
    >Lenovo's malware scandal should certainly give you pause, but do note that it was only installed on its consumer laptops. Thinkpads were unaffected. And would not matter if you were installing Linux per this thread...
    - vardump 10y ago
      Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code.
      - voidlogic 10y ago
        >Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code. Are you insinuating that was the case here? Source please, I'd be interested to read about that.
        voltagex_ 10y ago
        https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenovo-busted-stealthily-installing-crapware-via-bios-fresh-windows-installs.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenov...
        Figs 10y ago
        Here are three news articles on what happened: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo-used-windows-anti-theft-feature-to-install-persistent-crapware/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo... http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-and-uefi-anti-theft-mechanism-makes-systems-less-secure/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-and-uefi-anti-th... http://www.pcworld.com/article/2969365/security/lenovos-service-engine-marks-yet-another-bloatware-blunder-for-the-company.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2969365/security/lenovos-serv... This should really only affect Windows systems as far as I know -- Windows is running an executable stored in the firmware at boot (a rather dubious feature, in my opinion, but it's intended as an anti-theft measure). Lenovo used that feature to try to circumvent removal of their crapware when someone reinstalls the OS.
- 234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
  Err, Apple was a willing participant in the NSA's PRISM program.
  - rarepostinlurkr 10y ago
    Someone adding a companies name to a slide is not proof of being a willing participant in anything.
    - 234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
      Alright, why don't you tell me all the proof you have that Apple was not a participant in the programme? The NSA talks about them in internal documents, that they have absolutely zero incentive to lie on, that Apple is a part of PRISM. Why would the NSA lie about that on an internal document. Don't you think there would be documents saying "We tried to get Apple to cooperate, but they didn't. Until they do, these are the steps, techniques, and hacks we will use against their technology." I don't remember seeing any such documents.
      - discordance 10y ago
        My guess is most of the companies (Yahoo excluded) on the PRISM slide were not complicit with the PRISM or the NSA. More likely, they were pwned by the NSA without their knowing.
  - orthecreedence 10y ago
    As much as I dislike Apple, I actually really doubt they were willing.
Spooks 10y ago
Dual booting maybe? Though I do agree that there are better laptops for cheaper.
preek 10y ago
I get your sentiment for the new model. I still run a 15" MBP from mid 13 and couldn't be happier with running Debian on it. Friends had multiple new machines (also Lenovo) in the same time. Some of them actually broke down. All of them have a very dim screen, speakers that I cannot hear and microphones that cannot record. And then there's the touch pad, ... The list goes on. I'm no Apple fan boy, but those Lenovos are not IBM Thinkpads anymore.
- voidlogic 10y ago
  >I'm no Apple fan boy, but those Lenovos are not IBM Thinkpads anymore. Are you saying the quality is down? I can't agree with that, I have kept buying Thinkpads and my X1 Carbon (2nd gen) is fantastic.
  - vinay427 10y ago
    I'm with you there. I'm tired of the assumption that quality has decreased because of a change of branding, possibly enhanced because the new owner is Chinese. My ThinkPad from early 2015 is better built than the older ThinkPads I have used, especially considering how thin and light it is. This shouldn't be surprising because the quality of materials has improved to make for lighter and more durable bodies.
    - orthecreedence 10y ago
      The build quality is fine. I like Lenovos, but I can't buy them anymore...it's more the malware that bothers me. And not so much the malware, but the fact that the company was caught twice doing it, once being a BIOS malware that kept reinstalling itself if removed. That shows fairly malicious intent on behalf of Lenovo. They just can't be trusted, at least not after a few years with a clean record.
chadgeidel 10y ago
Build quality. It's difficult to find a computer that matches the quality of a MacBook for fit and finish, trackpad quality, and battery life. I haven't used the new one, but the 2015 models were among the best hardware on the market - regardless of what OS was installed.
- micaksica 10y ago
  While Macs have fantastic build quality, there are now premium-level PCs that are catching up to it. The new EliteBook Folio is a Core M-powered, Thunderbolt-containing replacement for the 12" MacBook (not Pro); the Razer series appear to be built just as well as Macs from my time with them hands-on as well. Personally, I don't care so much about "build quality" in terms of materials used. If the hardware works I'm happy, and the Thinkpad is fine to me.
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    It may be fine, but the disk speeds on the latest Macs are amazing. There is no laptop that matches that I'm aware of.
    - micaksica 10y ago
      Assuming you are using Linux and you have gobs of RAM, the 15-20% difference you will see between an mSATA SSD and NVMe is negligible for most common workloads/applications, as you will be likely pulling things from the RAM cache. The Linux box I'm writing this on only has 8 GB RAM and my whole system is only using 1.1G, leaving 6+ GB RAM as a RAM cache for read files. On 16 GB systems it's even better. For more info: http://www.linuxatemyram.com/play.html http://www.linuxatemyram.com/play.html
    - dom0 10y ago
      Unless I'm missing something: Huh? Apple is just using regular NVMe/M.2 SSDs, nothing special about them. Lots of laptops have the option for M.2 NVMe SSDs, and most newer desktop motherboards have the slot for it.
xenihn 10y ago
$2800 is nothing to a very significant portion of American developers. No, I am not one of them.
- orthecreedence 10y ago
  Ehh, I'm one of those people, and it's a lot to me. I've been having trouble pulling the trigger on a new $2K laptop. I'm generally pretty frugal though.
hbosch 10y ago
Sure, a Honda will get you there... but sometimes people would rather have the BMW anyway.

by notadoc 10y ago

$2800 on a laptop with only 16GB RAM that you're going to run linux on anyway? If you're going to run Ubuntu, why not get a Lenovo for much less and with notably better legitimately "Pro" specs?

elchief 10y ago

Apple, maybe, actually fights for your privacy, while Lenovo definitely exploits it for money. Is there a secure enclave chip in Lenovo? Do you really trust their firmware?

gruez 10y ago
I don't see how that's a relevant point if you're going to do a fresh install anyways, unless you think lenovo is going to use something like vpro to spy on you without the OS.
- jkestner 10y ago
  You're funding spyware, even if it's not on your own computer.
  - gruez 10y ago
    if you're referring to the superfish scandal, that piece of software wasn't developed by lenovo, it was developed by a third party, who paid lenovo to install it on their windows images. so i don't see how buying lenovo is "funding spyware".
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      More like Lenovo is taxing spyware, if you're going to install something other than Windows. Superfish only loses money on that transaction.
      - jkestner 10y ago
        Well, that makes me feel better. Let me rephrase: By buying Lenovo, you're supporting a company that exchanges the privacy and security of unwitting customers for profit.
  - na85 10y ago
    It goes both ways. By buying Apple you're funding walled gardens and anti-choice design patterns, abusive labor practices including child labor and sweatshop conditions at their prime contractors, and collusion with NSA et al via PRISM.
    - grzm 10y ago
      I'm not arguing a defense of Apple here. Honest question: Are there differences between computer manufacturers in these regards that you're aware of?
    - givinguflac 10y ago
      This comment is just ridiculous. Apple does more than ANY manufacturer to improve working and supply chain conditions, anywhere, and most OEMs use the same facilities so blaming Apple specifically is doubly silly. How is the Mac even close to a walled garden or anti choice??? They allow Windows and any app you want to be installed.. What are you talking about? And please, do provide a source for your "collusion with NSA" accusation as every other statement and action by Apple shows the opposite.
      - na85 10y ago
        Wow bud, sorry to have insulted your favourite company. They did in fact participate in PRISM, sorry to get you so worked up.
      - xorxornop 10y ago
        Hmm, let's see: can't run OSX and variants thereof except on Apple hardware (despite acceptable to flawless hardware compatibility), can't build software for OSX and variants thereof except on a Mac (despite being perfectly workable), can't use a different app store on iOS...
        rarepostinlurkr 10y ago
        Wasn't this very post about clear hardware incompatibilities with the latest laptops and linux? Despite appearing to be the same, it's clearly not, otherwise it would simply 'just work'. The idea that a constrained team spent the time to intentionally 'break' some 'standard' functionality to prohibit linux from working is laughable as well.
- givinguflac 10y ago
  They do. They've modified BIOS in the past to keep the spyware going.
cyrus_ 10y ago
Lenovo's malware scandal should certainly give you pause, but do note that it was only installed on its consumer laptops. Thinkpads were unaffected. Moreover, Apple is far from the cleanly ethical choice you seem to think it is. It blocks or impedes the installation of software that it has unilaterally decided is against its interests + takes a ludicrous percentage of revenue via the App Store.
- voidlogic 10y ago
  >Lenovo's malware scandal should certainly give you pause, but do note that it was only installed on its consumer laptops. Thinkpads were unaffected. And would not matter if you were installing Linux per this thread...
  - vardump 10y ago
    Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code.
    - voidlogic 10y ago
      >Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code. Are you insinuating that was the case here? Source please, I'd be interested to read about that.
      - voltagex_ 10y ago
        https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenovo-busted-stealthily-installing-crapware-via-bios-fresh-windows-installs.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenov...
      - Figs 10y ago
        Here are three news articles on what happened: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo-used-windows-anti-theft-feature-to-install-persistent-crapware/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo... http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-and-uefi-anti-theft-mechanism-makes-systems-less-secure/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-and-uefi-anti-th... http://www.pcworld.com/article/2969365/security/lenovos-service-engine-marks-yet-another-bloatware-blunder-for-the-company.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2969365/security/lenovos-serv... This should really only affect Windows systems as far as I know -- Windows is running an executable stored in the firmware at boot (a rather dubious feature, in my opinion, but it's intended as an anti-theft measure). Lenovo used that feature to try to circumvent removal of their crapware when someone reinstalls the OS.
234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
Err, Apple was a willing participant in the NSA's PRISM program.
- rarepostinlurkr 10y ago
  Someone adding a companies name to a slide is not proof of being a willing participant in anything.
  - 234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
    Alright, why don't you tell me all the proof you have that Apple was not a participant in the programme? The NSA talks about them in internal documents, that they have absolutely zero incentive to lie on, that Apple is a part of PRISM. Why would the NSA lie about that on an internal document. Don't you think there would be documents saying "We tried to get Apple to cooperate, but they didn't. Until they do, these are the steps, techniques, and hacks we will use against their technology." I don't remember seeing any such documents.
    - discordance 10y ago
      My guess is most of the companies (Yahoo excluded) on the PRISM slide were not complicit with the PRISM or the NSA. More likely, they were pwned by the NSA without their knowing.
- orthecreedence 10y ago
  As much as I dislike Apple, I actually really doubt they were willing.

Spooks 10y ago

Dual booting maybe? Though I do agree that there are better laptops for cheaper.

preek 10y ago

I get your sentiment for the new model. I still run a 15" MBP from mid 13 and couldn't be happier with running Debian on it. Friends had multiple new machines (also Lenovo) in the same time. Some of them actually broke down. All of them have a very dim screen, speakers that I cannot hear and microphones that cannot record. And then there's the touch pad, ... The list goes on. I'm no Apple fan boy, but those Lenovos are not IBM Thinkpads anymore.

voidlogic 10y ago
>I'm no Apple fan boy, but those Lenovos are not IBM Thinkpads anymore. Are you saying the quality is down? I can't agree with that, I have kept buying Thinkpads and my X1 Carbon (2nd gen) is fantastic.
- vinay427 10y ago
  I'm with you there. I'm tired of the assumption that quality has decreased because of a change of branding, possibly enhanced because the new owner is Chinese. My ThinkPad from early 2015 is better built than the older ThinkPads I have used, especially considering how thin and light it is. This shouldn't be surprising because the quality of materials has improved to make for lighter and more durable bodies.
  - orthecreedence 10y ago
    The build quality is fine. I like Lenovos, but I can't buy them anymore...it's more the malware that bothers me. And not so much the malware, but the fact that the company was caught twice doing it, once being a BIOS malware that kept reinstalling itself if removed. That shows fairly malicious intent on behalf of Lenovo. They just can't be trusted, at least not after a few years with a clean record.

chadgeidel 10y ago

Build quality. It's difficult to find a computer that matches the quality of a MacBook for fit and finish, trackpad quality, and battery life. I haven't used the new one, but the 2015 models were among the best hardware on the market - regardless of what OS was installed.

micaksica 10y ago
While Macs have fantastic build quality, there are now premium-level PCs that are catching up to it. The new EliteBook Folio is a Core M-powered, Thunderbolt-containing replacement for the 12" MacBook (not Pro); the Razer series appear to be built just as well as Macs from my time with them hands-on as well. Personally, I don't care so much about "build quality" in terms of materials used. If the hardware works I'm happy, and the Thinkpad is fine to me.
- givinguflac 10y ago
  It may be fine, but the disk speeds on the latest Macs are amazing. There is no laptop that matches that I'm aware of.
  - micaksica 10y ago
    Assuming you are using Linux and you have gobs of RAM, the 15-20% difference you will see between an mSATA SSD and NVMe is negligible for most common workloads/applications, as you will be likely pulling things from the RAM cache. The Linux box I'm writing this on only has 8 GB RAM and my whole system is only using 1.1G, leaving 6+ GB RAM as a RAM cache for read files. On 16 GB systems it's even better. For more info: http://www.linuxatemyram.com/play.html http://www.linuxatemyram.com/play.html
  - dom0 10y ago
    Unless I'm missing something: Huh? Apple is just using regular NVMe/M.2 SSDs, nothing special about them. Lots of laptops have the option for M.2 NVMe SSDs, and most newer desktop motherboards have the slot for it.

xenihn 10y ago

$2800 is nothing to a very significant portion of American developers. No, I am not one of them.

orthecreedence 10y ago
Ehh, I'm one of those people, and it's a lot to me. I've been having trouble pulling the trigger on a new $2K laptop. I'm generally pretty frugal though.

hbosch 10y ago

Sure, a Honda will get you there... but sometimes people would rather have the BMW anyway.