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Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

272 points by Axsuul 10y ago

Axsuul 10y ago
Saw this set of polls from @zedshaw on twitter and had JUST read this article. Seems relevant. https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224 https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224
- mijustin 10y ago
  Wow. That poll seems to indicate the only way most folks get a raise is by quitting their job and getting a different one. :(
  - chris_hawk 10y ago
    That sounds right. The link in the OP outlines a pretty solid plan; that's pretty much the way I used to get raises as a corporate dev.
  - pkaler 10y ago
    Makes sense. At the macro level, the way you see gains in the economy is when you redeploy resources. At the micro level, the way you redeploy resources is by using your two feet. :)
  - strictnein 10y ago
    It's the only way I've ever received a real raise in the past ~12 years. I even quit to start a company and came back to the same company 18 months later at $30k higher than when I left (I was originally underpaid, but still).
  - clifanatic 10y ago
    Been programming for 25 years, 8 different employers. The only time I've ever gotten anything besides a COL increase was when I switched jobs.
  - dsp1234 10y ago
    There are also social dynamics and logical fallacies at play. For example, we brought on a front end developer who was about 1 year out of college and hadn't done much. After 3 years, he had devoured basically everything on the front end, but he hadn't gotten much of a raise, but was leading a team in addition to his own work. An internal position opened up that would have been a promotion for him, and when I talked to the person hiring, I got a response of "What are you talking about? He's fresh out of college". Few in the company could see past their mental model of him even though he'd grown past it by far. He wasn't able to break away from those pre-conceived, and built up opinions. However, he left, got a new position for a quite a bit of a raise, and he's no longer known as 'that college kid'. In that way, it's like family dynamics. Being a 'kid sister' even though everyone is in their 40s, has 2 or more kids of their own, and the age gap is only 2 years. Replace your own unbreakable family dynamics here.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      Yep. Seen it happens. The only path to right the wrong perception is to start anew elsewhere.
  - draw_down 10y ago
    Yeah, that's been the received wisdom for a while now. Certainly true in my experience. Loyalty just doesn't work out for the employee. Firms know they do this and most of them don't care. The only exception I know for sure is Netflix.
- rhizome 10y ago
  Are the image links unclickable in Firefox for anybody else?
redwards510 10y ago
If only things were so easy. Our department gets allocated $XX,XXX each year for raises. My boss has to split that among eight people. If I were to get a 5% bump like OP recommends, other people would get nothing. Sounds like typical D-grade manager motivation. "Everyone work yourself to death and I might throw you a bone after one year!" I'd rather give up that 5% to have a sane work-life balance. It's common knowledge that you must quit to increase your salary. It seems like a stupid practice for companies to follow, but it must make sense economically or they wouldn't do it.
- throwaway2048 10y ago
  Don't assume it makes sense just because the majority are doing it.
- geofft 10y ago
  What happens if your boss goes to their boss and says, "Hey, one of my employees is planning to jump ship for salary reasons, can we do anything here?"
  - posabsolute 10y ago
    I think you are missing the point, Of course you can do that but you enter another level of negotiation because you are quitting and it might not even count toward the budget at this point. I would not recommend doing that every year as a negotiation tactic either. I tend to agree with Redwards, and unless you are working in a small company if you do your job correctly it becomes more a political game than anything else.
  - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
    You typically only get to play that card once and you'd better be looking to leave in the next two years anyway.
    - byoung2 10y ago
      Definitely true, but in software engineering it's typical to have short stints anyway. If you change companies every few years, why not play this card all the time before jumping ship?
xchaotic 10y ago
You should always approach the negotiations with an upper hand - an offer from somewhere else. If it doesn't go well, just move.
- rhodysurf 10y ago
  Yup I've used this recently and it went really well. However, my boss is really good to his employees and understands negotiations are just business. A lot of situations are different and there are a lot of employers who do not like competing with other offers. Also have to make sure you don't over value your worth to your current company.
- dxxvi 10y ago
  You'll be given the raise, but you'll be let go very soon.
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    Not necessarily true. I have had several occasions where I told my boss that I had this offer and what does he recommend to do. I always got a raise and wasn't laid off.
    - SteveNuts 10y ago
      How long did you stick around after you presented the other offer?
      - maxxxxx 10y ago
        Quite a while. There were no negative consequences.
        ryandrake 10y ago
        Wow, I can't imagine a place where playing the "I got an offer somewhere else" card wouldn't start a countdown clock on your career there.
JoshDoody 10y ago
Just saw a huge spike in traffic from HN and thought I would stop by to see what all the fuss is about. Glad to see people reading the article and having a productive conversation in the comments. Happy to answer questions if you have them, and I'll hop into the comments as well.
- SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
  So you are the reason there are engineers that values themselves so high, that when they reach the market again they ask as much's salary as if they were CEO's?
  - troels 10y ago
    Are you implying that a CEO is more valuable than a good engineer?
    - SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
      YES A _good_ CEO it's worth more than 1 good engineer by the fact the second one needs input from the first one, a good engineer is useless without a goal or an idea to develop. Software Foundations are probably the only places were this tough isn't valid for everything else it should.
  - kbart 10y ago
    What's wrong with engineers making as much as CEOs?
ffjffsfr 10y ago
> Bring more value to the company than what’s expected of you. Then ask to be compensated for it. Sorry but it doesn't always work like this. Sure, performing well makes it more likely for you to get a raise, but there is no guarantee. Perhaps performing well increases probability of you getting a raise. But it does not guarantee anything nor is it most important factor in computing this probability. Probabibility of raise will depend on variety of factors including your company culture, your manager personality, company financial situation etc.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  No, it doesn't always work like that. It works that way enough of the time to be worth trying, though. Even if it doesn't get you a raise at your current job, having done things that add value gives you a better negotiating position for a different job.
  - gedrap 10y ago
    Exactly. You could do me the minimal amount of work required to stay employed but then you can't expect a generous raise, unless you manage to play office politics very well AND the workplace is quite toxic to allow that. Personally, I try to give a fair amount of effort to deliver more value than expected. It doesn't mean that I am working 60hrs/wk or anything like that, just trying to be creative and not asking anyone to hold my hand in my explorations.
zer00eyz 10y ago
fearlesssalarynegotiation.com sounds like such a reputable place to buy a $199 bundle. So lets break down why this 199 bundle might work. Odds are that if your buying this, you lacked the confidence to negotiate upfront. If your low man on the totem poll its easy for me as a manager to get you to the same level as everyone else. That deals with year one, your not supposed to try this again till year three. By then your out side the 60 day window, and your not getting a refund on the BS package.
iamthepieman 10y ago
I've got raises as high as 206% by switching jobs. Most recent switch a little over 2 years ago resulted in a 20% raise which is much more typical. Never had more than a cost of living increase otherwise (2-3%), My strategy is to move when I stop learning. It maximizes both my enjoyment (learning challenges me and gives me motivation beyond a paycheck which is good for me and my employer.) and my potential earnings.
- vogt 10y ago
  Since Oct 2012, I've gone from $32k, to $44k, to $75k, to $85k (and killer benefits) now. None of these were in SF, NYC, LA, Boston or Austin. All from switching jobs.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    One thing not mentioned a lot in this discussion is that those triple- and double-digit increases tend to only happen early in one's career. Later in your career, it gets very difficult to find a different company that is willing to pay you even 10% more than you're making. You definitely will hit a ceiling at some point. My last job hop probably did not result in more than a 1% bump or so. So, Junior Engineer going from $32K to $60K is totally believable. Senior Engineer going from $150K to $175K is going to be rarer. Super-Senior Engineer going from $190K to $225K seems unlikely (but probably does happen from time to time).
    - vogt 10y ago
      Yes, that is definitely a fair point. Also for clarity's sake I'm a designer but the principles here are the same.
    - kasey_junk 10y ago
      Just to give a anecdotal data point. I'm in that high end range and have been for a long time, and I go between it (a little higher and lower for that matter) based on the job opportunity. Literally, I've taken jobs that go down that much because it sounded like a good job. Similarly, I've been given raises that much because of a variety of factors. But to your larger point, at the top end of the scale, to make dramatically more money you need to get attached to the business revenue directly, either as a founder, a partner, a solo operator etc.
hbt 10y ago
Yes, the classic "just world hypothesis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis If you "work harder", you will be compensated fairly. Of course, "work harder" is overrated now that work doesn't involve physical labor. "Work harder" has been replaced by "create more value". The expectation is after you create more value for the owners, you will be compensated fairly. If you believe that, go talk to engineers who worked on startups as early employees and got screwed by investors, founders, managers etc. Why? For many reasons: - the owners didn't think you could do any damage to their reputation and impact hiring prospects after they screwed you - after the company grew, you were now interchangeable - needed to raise more money and dilute your shares - you were no longer as valuable to the next stage of the company - They didn't believe you could replicate the value you created again etc. Of course, founders, investors and friends stick around regardless of the stage of the company or the value of their contribution. Why? Because they OWN it, they have power. Do not confuse performance for power. The only time I got a significant raise (I mean 4X the pay) is when I had significant leverage. Opportunism, self interest and politics rule business. People are not gonna give you more money if they can avoid it.
- SamUK96 10y ago
  Thank you. Spot on. I've found that most seniors have gained their place because they made sure nobody could become better than them. How seniors usually do this is by restricting training, keeping knowledge of things they designed to themselves, and so on. Heck, where I'am working now, a senior has designed this billing system, and literally nobody knows how to use it and it always breaks, but he will not tell anybody how to fix it, despite me and dozens others shouting at him. One word that ensures higher salaries... Protectionism.
imaginenore 10y ago
Don't ask, don't get. And asking is the only thing you can do. Almost never will your boss/manager approach you and offer you a significant raise, even if you're a kickass developer who is crucial to the company. Just ask. Still, asking will only get you that far. I got $80->$90/hr raise by asking. But then I got a 40% increase by changing jobs. And if you're consulting, and are confident enough, you can just raise your prices by a lot. I once was very busy, and told the client that I would freeze my other project if they pay $150/hr, and they agreed to it. Win-win. I get more money, they get the product.
- troels 10y ago
  90 x 1.4 = 126. If you were making 126/h in a salaried job, why would you consider 150/h an out-of-the-ordinary high wage when consulting?
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  Ask, don't get, move on. Or ask, get, move for even more. Or ask, don't get, stay and hope. It all depends on your personality.
darklajid 10y ago
Like in a lot of things: Context matters. I can look at SV salaries and only shake my head. Random 'jump between jobs every 6 month if needed to improve your net worth' advice from single mid-twenties (not talking about the author, no clue about his background. But it feels that this is the general attitude around salary improvement here) is not globally applicable. And the author basically says 'invest in the company and THEN ask for the reward'. He's ignoring the 'or else' part. I am 100% sure that a healthy portion of envy and fear is part of my rejection, so let's say I'm coming in with a rather negative attitude. But that article is completely and absolutely devoid of content. "Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article. Writing down the year over year effects of N percent in salary is trivial maths. He's followed by Patio on Twitter, so I give the author the benefit of the doubt and believe that he has sound advice to offer, a decent idea about negotiation (with the 'context matters' caveat). But this article seems .. a fluff piece?
- user5994461 10y ago
  > "Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article. IMO. It's actually bad advice. It's wrong to think of salary as something synced to productivity/value. Working more guarantees pretty much nothing about future money. Only that you're underpaid, and you've made yourself even more underpaid because you put more hours. "Get offers and negotiate as hard as necessary. Then work whatever you may or wish." That's a way better strategy.
mrlyc 10y ago
When my contract was up for renewal, what worked for me was to mention to my manager that people doing my job in other companies were being paid $20 more per hour than I was. I was hoping for a $5 increase or maybe even a $10 one but he gave me the whole $20 and made me promise not to tell anyone. Six months later, we got a new CEO and my contract was terminated because I cost too much.
- cryptozeus 10y ago
  Sorry but I laughed!!
dfabulich 10y ago
I often see articles like this talking about getting a "raise," but the steps they talk about seem more in line what I'd think of as getting a "promotion" (along a technical track). Is "getting a raise" the same thing as "getting a promotion" for the purposes of this discussion? If I get a promotion every two or three years, am I also supposed to be trying to negotiate a non-promotion raise every 12 months?
- vroombaprime 10y ago
  General case (if you are at a startup this doesn't apply): Getting a raise and promotion are different things, though sometimes promotions happen at "raise time" (yearly review cycle). There are also "out-of-cycle" raises but those are generally for special cases where you need market adjustments or are a star performer. You _need_ to be getting a raise every 12 months just to keep up with inflation. If the company is doing fine and you are a top-50% performing employee you should be getting inflation+extra - if not, that is a bad sign. The 'extra' seems to vary a lot by industry, I've seen 1-10% from friends in other industries. We're talking about yearly review cycles here, so when it's approaching that time you need to be noting all the concrete work you've done, why it was great, and why you need to be in the "above/way-above average" raise bucket. You need to be managing your manager ahead of time so they think well of you and have already allotted a nice raise to you in the spreadsheet. Your negotiation is in the prep work with your manager: generally once the review happens things are already in motion and not much will change course.
  - dfabulich 10y ago
    Well, yes, now that you mention it, those little across-the-board raises have occurred. I guess, to rephrase my question: am I doing myself a disservice if I'm not negotiating "raises" at my current pay grade but only attempting to earn "promotions" (which of course include pay increases)?
nachtigall 10y ago
4. Organize with (some of) your co-workers, maybe join a union. Act together instead of fighting for higher wages on your own. Seriously, the moment you are on a "secret" one-to-one with your boss you have already lost. There's reason why unions have always bargained collectively, and there's also reason why bosses have always tried to avoid this.
- hueving 10y ago
  I'm against them and I'm not a manager. They encourage stagnation due to rewarding seniority instead of contributions. If everyone in the union gets X% (with or without a seniority bonus), why would anyone give two shits about putting an effort in beyond the minimum. You want a taste of what a software dev union is like in the US? Join a government organization where income has almost no correlation with performance and you'll be ready to put a gun to your head after 6 months due to the glacial pace people work at (assuming you want to get things done efficiently).
  - pitaj 10y ago
    This is great comment. Not necessarily because you're right (you are, at least regarding the current state of things) but because you bring up the biggest problem with unions in their current state. People don't have an issue with collective bargaining, they have a problem with the other negative effects of unions.
    - hiram112 10y ago
      I would be happy with an organization that would group together to avoid the use of body shops that push wages down across the board. The things that are happening Disney, Edison, and a lot of other places shouldn't be tolerated by software devs collectively.
NKosmatos 10y ago
No offense, but this is applicable in fairy land or in an idealized and fair society/economy. Sure there are exceptions and I bet there are software developers who get what they deserve, but the majority is in no position to negotiate a 3-5% raise. I'm sure that for someone working in Silicon Valley it's true but not for many countries I can think off (including Greece where I work).
- ryandrake 10y ago
  It's not necessarily true for Silicon Valley either. Despite the whole "shortage of engineers" fairy tale that just won't die, it's very much an employer's market, and employers are in the driver's seat when it comes to compensation.
  - tedyoung 10y ago
    I think employers are in the driver's seat because of information asymmetry: they know what the market is and employees (probably) don't. The playing field can be leveled by looking around for information and, if necessary, job shopping. Even if you don't want to move companies, finding out what the market will pay you is the only way to really know.
  - morgante 10y ago
    I feel like you should reassess. What makes you think it's an employer's market? Do you think Google/Facebook/etc. are paying $250k out of the goodness of their hearts? Just because your personal experience doesn't confirm that it's very much an employee's market doesn't make that false. Keep in mind that the market is very skill-sensitive. Not all positions have intense competition for employees, but there is a huge amount of demand for senior engineers who are well-versed in a web stack.
acconrad 10y ago
> If you negotiate an additional 5% raise every two years you’ll make up that gap in your starting salary by Year 6 Well if the average tenure of a software developer at a company is like 2-3 years, you will lose by asking for a raise and should just quit to go somewhere else!
z3t4 10y ago
You can not earn more then someone else is willing to pay .
- draw_down 10y ago
  Some are willing to pay more than others. :)
quizzas 10y ago
It really does depend on the organizational structure of the company, and whether they appreciate how difficult it is to replace programmers with an equally competent one. Most non-tech managers don't understand the intangible costs of replacing programmers, but that's never stopped them treating programmers like interchangeable cogs. If you work for a Fortune 500 non-technical company, I don't believe this strategy works to well.
Mandatum 10y ago
$100/hr: 120K yr for 3-day/wk contracts, I like long weekends.. Java dev.
- Traubenfuchs 10y ago
  As someone who doesn't earn quite as much, whose day job is maintaining and modifying big, monolithic and outdated Spring/Webflow/JSF applications from hell I'd like to ask you: What exactly are you doing and how do did you get there?
  - Mandatum 10y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, I work in integration. I say I'm a Java dev but I don't write much Java, I've specialised for the past 3 years in an ESB called Mule. The need for the tech seems to be rising around the world and I just happened to pick it up on my first job (have been working "professionally" for 4 years). Didn't really start fully understanding the quirks and good ways of doing things with it until this year, but I was charging $80/hr 2 years ago. Seeing as you're already familiar with monoliths, I don't think it would be a very far jump for you if you were interested in the tech. You can get certifications for <$200USD with Mulesoft (a unicorn startup) which would guarantee you a decent salary, contracting on the other hand is a networking game. Write a blog, give talks, goto meetups and find companies that need your skills. Don't undervalue yourself, if you set your rate too low - your clients aren't going to like it in a years time when you've realised you're worth 2X and you start charging them 2X.
andrew_wc_brown 10y ago
At least in startups. You salaried gets lowered when funding gets tougher. This has happen to be at every startups I was employed at.
LouisSayers 10y ago
In my experience you'll be much better off just quitting and joining other companies, then going onto contracting. Here's my own person experience in just a few years: 1. Start off as a Grad on 30k GBP 2. One and half years later quit, onto another company at 48k GBP (>50% pay rise) 3. One and half years later quit. Do own thing for a year. Then go onto contracting at equivalent of 75k GBP (>50% pay rise) So in summary, in the span of a 4 year period, I've gone from 30k GBP to 75k GBP. There's definitely an upper limit on this of course. I think if I were to get out of startup land again now and focus on my salary I'd have to head to a different market (currently in Australia). I'd either aim for contracting in the UK where I know you can easily get 400-600 GBP per day, or the US where salaries for devs just seem higher. I'm playing long game though, taking the startup route. So I'll either be collecting change from the streets in a few years, or hopefully I'll be well ahead of the game. Will have to wait and see...
- pitaj 10y ago
  It sounds fairly logarithmic or logistic to me.
- babbage141 10y ago
  Contracting for startups at 75k GBP? Is this in London? What industry is the startup targeting?
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    75 k is acutally low for contracting. Good contractors can hit 100k+
    - LouisSayers 10y ago
      Equivalent of 75K GBP - I moved to Australia and rates simply aren't as good
    - ciaranm 10y ago
      'working full time' != 'good'. Some of us choose not to work all year round.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jerkstate 10y ago
Q: How do I get a raise without changing jobs? A: Get a raise without changing jobs.
known 10y ago
Show https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm to your management
ensiferum 10y ago
Write more code... urgh... code is stupidly expensive to any organization and simple LOC should never be used as metric for anything. Basically all the suggestions are low level grass roots value proposals. This article has much better advice (IMHO) https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-ceo-heres-how-i-decide-whether-to-give-you-a-raise-or-lay-you-off https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-ceo...
agounaris 10y ago
Writing more code is definitely not the way to get a salary raise! Such a simplified and wrong post about salary negotiation...
rockshassa 10y ago
this "article" reads like it was written as propaganda by in-house HR to retain staff. 3% is basically a non-raise, it just keeps up with inflation. an extra 5% is alright, but is not adequate to retain talent who knows their worth. i once received an annual raise was 2.5%. i pushed back a bit but not too hard, as i've done this enough times to know that it is never worth the amount of stress involved. fast forward a few months, i'm walking out the door to a new gig with a signifigant increase (lets say 20%). old mgmt didnt see it coming, despite the ample warning i gave them, and ample opportunities to correct the situation. they never do, just accept it and move on

272 points by Axsuul 10y ago

Saw this set of polls from @zedshaw on twitter and had JUST read this article. Seems relevant. https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224 https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224

mijustin 10y ago
Wow. That poll seems to indicate the only way most folks get a raise is by quitting their job and getting a different one. :(
- chris_hawk 10y ago
  That sounds right. The link in the OP outlines a pretty solid plan; that's pretty much the way I used to get raises as a corporate dev.
- pkaler 10y ago
  Makes sense. At the macro level, the way you see gains in the economy is when you redeploy resources. At the micro level, the way you redeploy resources is by using your two feet. :)
- strictnein 10y ago
  It's the only way I've ever received a real raise in the past ~12 years. I even quit to start a company and came back to the same company 18 months later at $30k higher than when I left (I was originally underpaid, but still).
- clifanatic 10y ago
  Been programming for 25 years, 8 different employers. The only time I've ever gotten anything besides a COL increase was when I switched jobs.
- dsp1234 10y ago
  There are also social dynamics and logical fallacies at play. For example, we brought on a front end developer who was about 1 year out of college and hadn't done much. After 3 years, he had devoured basically everything on the front end, but he hadn't gotten much of a raise, but was leading a team in addition to his own work. An internal position opened up that would have been a promotion for him, and when I talked to the person hiring, I got a response of "What are you talking about? He's fresh out of college". Few in the company could see past their mental model of him even though he'd grown past it by far. He wasn't able to break away from those pre-conceived, and built up opinions. However, he left, got a new position for a quite a bit of a raise, and he's no longer known as 'that college kid'. In that way, it's like family dynamics. Being a 'kid sister' even though everyone is in their 40s, has 2 or more kids of their own, and the age gap is only 2 years. Replace your own unbreakable family dynamics here.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Yep. Seen it happens. The only path to right the wrong perception is to start anew elsewhere.
- draw_down 10y ago
  Yeah, that's been the received wisdom for a while now. Certainly true in my experience. Loyalty just doesn't work out for the employee. Firms know they do this and most of them don't care. The only exception I know for sure is Netflix.
rhizome 10y ago
Are the image links unclickable in Firefox for anybody else?

redwards510 10y ago

If only things were so easy. Our department gets allocated $XX,XXX each year for raises. My boss has to split that among eight people. If I were to get a 5% bump like OP recommends, other people would get nothing. Sounds like typical D-grade manager motivation. "Everyone work yourself to death and I might throw you a bone after one year!" I'd rather give up that 5% to have a sane work-life balance. It's common knowledge that you must quit to increase your salary. It seems like a stupid practice for companies to follow, but it must make sense economically or they wouldn't do it.

throwaway2048 10y ago
Don't assume it makes sense just because the majority are doing it.
geofft 10y ago
What happens if your boss goes to their boss and says, "Hey, one of my employees is planning to jump ship for salary reasons, can we do anything here?"
- posabsolute 10y ago
  I think you are missing the point, Of course you can do that but you enter another level of negotiation because you are quitting and it might not even count toward the budget at this point. I would not recommend doing that every year as a negotiation tactic either. I tend to agree with Redwards, and unless you are working in a small company if you do your job correctly it becomes more a political game than anything else.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  You typically only get to play that card once and you'd better be looking to leave in the next two years anyway.
  - byoung2 10y ago
    Definitely true, but in software engineering it's typical to have short stints anyway. If you change companies every few years, why not play this card all the time before jumping ship?

xchaotic 10y ago

You should always approach the negotiations with an upper hand - an offer from somewhere else. If it doesn't go well, just move.

rhodysurf 10y ago
Yup I've used this recently and it went really well. However, my boss is really good to his employees and understands negotiations are just business. A lot of situations are different and there are a lot of employers who do not like competing with other offers. Also have to make sure you don't over value your worth to your current company.
dxxvi 10y ago
You'll be given the raise, but you'll be let go very soon.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  Not necessarily true. I have had several occasions where I told my boss that I had this offer and what does he recommend to do. I always got a raise and wasn't laid off.
  - SteveNuts 10y ago
    How long did you stick around after you presented the other offer?
    - maxxxxx 10y ago
      Quite a while. There were no negative consequences.
      - ryandrake 10y ago
        Wow, I can't imagine a place where playing the "I got an offer somewhere else" card wouldn't start a countdown clock on your career there.

JoshDoody 10y ago

Just saw a huge spike in traffic from HN and thought I would stop by to see what all the fuss is about. Glad to see people reading the article and having a productive conversation in the comments. Happy to answer questions if you have them, and I'll hop into the comments as well.

SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
So you are the reason there are engineers that values themselves so high, that when they reach the market again they ask as much's salary as if they were CEO's?
- troels 10y ago
  Are you implying that a CEO is more valuable than a good engineer?
  - SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
    YES A _good_ CEO it's worth more than 1 good engineer by the fact the second one needs input from the first one, a good engineer is useless without a goal or an idea to develop. Software Foundations are probably the only places were this tough isn't valid for everything else it should.
- kbart 10y ago
  What's wrong with engineers making as much as CEOs?

ffjffsfr 10y ago

> Bring more value to the company than what’s expected of you. Then ask to be compensated for it. Sorry but it doesn't always work like this. Sure, performing well makes it more likely for you to get a raise, but there is no guarantee. Perhaps performing well increases probability of you getting a raise. But it does not guarantee anything nor is it most important factor in computing this probability. Probabibility of raise will depend on variety of factors including your company culture, your manager personality, company financial situation etc.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
No, it doesn't always work like that. It works that way enough of the time to be worth trying, though. Even if it doesn't get you a raise at your current job, having done things that add value gives you a better negotiating position for a different job.
- gedrap 10y ago
  Exactly. You could do me the minimal amount of work required to stay employed but then you can't expect a generous raise, unless you manage to play office politics very well AND the workplace is quite toxic to allow that. Personally, I try to give a fair amount of effort to deliver more value than expected. It doesn't mean that I am working 60hrs/wk or anything like that, just trying to be creative and not asking anyone to hold my hand in my explorations.

zer00eyz 10y ago

fearlesssalarynegotiation.com sounds like such a reputable place to buy a $199 bundle. So lets break down why this 199 bundle might work. Odds are that if your buying this, you lacked the confidence to negotiate upfront. If your low man on the totem poll its easy for me as a manager to get you to the same level as everyone else. That deals with year one, your not supposed to try this again till year three. By then your out side the 60 day window, and your not getting a refund on the BS package.

iamthepieman 10y ago

I've got raises as high as 206% by switching jobs. Most recent switch a little over 2 years ago resulted in a 20% raise which is much more typical. Never had more than a cost of living increase otherwise (2-3%), My strategy is to move when I stop learning. It maximizes both my enjoyment (learning challenges me and gives me motivation beyond a paycheck which is good for me and my employer.) and my potential earnings.

vogt 10y ago
Since Oct 2012, I've gone from $32k, to $44k, to $75k, to $85k (and killer benefits) now. None of these were in SF, NYC, LA, Boston or Austin. All from switching jobs.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  One thing not mentioned a lot in this discussion is that those triple- and double-digit increases tend to only happen early in one's career. Later in your career, it gets very difficult to find a different company that is willing to pay you even 10% more than you're making. You definitely will hit a ceiling at some point. My last job hop probably did not result in more than a 1% bump or so. So, Junior Engineer going from $32K to $60K is totally believable. Senior Engineer going from $150K to $175K is going to be rarer. Super-Senior Engineer going from $190K to $225K seems unlikely (but probably does happen from time to time).
  - vogt 10y ago
    Yes, that is definitely a fair point. Also for clarity's sake I'm a designer but the principles here are the same.
  - kasey_junk 10y ago
    Just to give a anecdotal data point. I'm in that high end range and have been for a long time, and I go between it (a little higher and lower for that matter) based on the job opportunity. Literally, I've taken jobs that go down that much because it sounded like a good job. Similarly, I've been given raises that much because of a variety of factors. But to your larger point, at the top end of the scale, to make dramatically more money you need to get attached to the business revenue directly, either as a founder, a partner, a solo operator etc.

hbt 10y ago

Yes, the classic "just world hypothesis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis If you "work harder", you will be compensated fairly. Of course, "work harder" is overrated now that work doesn't involve physical labor. "Work harder" has been replaced by "create more value". The expectation is after you create more value for the owners, you will be compensated fairly. If you believe that, go talk to engineers who worked on startups as early employees and got screwed by investors, founders, managers etc. Why? For many reasons: - the owners didn't think you could do any damage to their reputation and impact hiring prospects after they screwed you - after the company grew, you were now interchangeable - needed to raise more money and dilute your shares - you were no longer as valuable to the next stage of the company - They didn't believe you could replicate the value you created again etc. Of course, founders, investors and friends stick around regardless of the stage of the company or the value of their contribution. Why? Because they OWN it, they have power. Do not confuse performance for power. The only time I got a significant raise (I mean 4X the pay) is when I had significant leverage. Opportunism, self interest and politics rule business. People are not gonna give you more money if they can avoid it.

SamUK96 10y ago
Thank you. Spot on. I've found that most seniors have gained their place because they made sure nobody could become better than them. How seniors usually do this is by restricting training, keeping knowledge of things they designed to themselves, and so on. Heck, where I'am working now, a senior has designed this billing system, and literally nobody knows how to use it and it always breaks, but he will not tell anybody how to fix it, despite me and dozens others shouting at him. One word that ensures higher salaries... Protectionism.

imaginenore 10y ago

Don't ask, don't get. And asking is the only thing you can do. Almost never will your boss/manager approach you and offer you a significant raise, even if you're a kickass developer who is crucial to the company. Just ask. Still, asking will only get you that far. I got $80->$90/hr raise by asking. But then I got a 40% increase by changing jobs. And if you're consulting, and are confident enough, you can just raise your prices by a lot. I once was very busy, and told the client that I would freeze my other project if they pay $150/hr, and they agreed to it. Win-win. I get more money, they get the product.

troels 10y ago
90 x 1.4 = 126. If you were making 126/h in a salaried job, why would you consider 150/h an out-of-the-ordinary high wage when consulting?
Raphmedia 10y ago
Ask, don't get, move on. Or ask, get, move for even more. Or ask, don't get, stay and hope. It all depends on your personality.

darklajid 10y ago

Like in a lot of things: Context matters. I can look at SV salaries and only shake my head. Random 'jump between jobs every 6 month if needed to improve your net worth' advice from single mid-twenties (not talking about the author, no clue about his background. But it feels that this is the general attitude around salary improvement here) is not globally applicable. And the author basically says 'invest in the company and THEN ask for the reward'. He's ignoring the 'or else' part. I am 100% sure that a healthy portion of envy and fear is part of my rejection, so let's say I'm coming in with a rather negative attitude. But that article is completely and absolutely devoid of content. "Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article. Writing down the year over year effects of N percent in salary is trivial maths. He's followed by Patio on Twitter, so I give the author the benefit of the doubt and believe that he has sound advice to offer, a decent idea about negotiation (with the 'context matters' caveat). But this article seems .. a fluff piece?

user5994461 10y ago
> "Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article. IMO. It's actually bad advice. It's wrong to think of salary as something synced to productivity/value. Working more guarantees pretty much nothing about future money. Only that you're underpaid, and you've made yourself even more underpaid because you put more hours. "Get offers and negotiate as hard as necessary. Then work whatever you may or wish." That's a way better strategy.

mrlyc 10y ago

When my contract was up for renewal, what worked for me was to mention to my manager that people doing my job in other companies were being paid $20 more per hour than I was. I was hoping for a $5 increase or maybe even a $10 one but he gave me the whole $20 and made me promise not to tell anyone. Six months later, we got a new CEO and my contract was terminated because I cost too much.

cryptozeus 10y ago
Sorry but I laughed!!

dfabulich 10y ago

I often see articles like this talking about getting a "raise," but the steps they talk about seem more in line what I'd think of as getting a "promotion" (along a technical track). Is "getting a raise" the same thing as "getting a promotion" for the purposes of this discussion? If I get a promotion every two or three years, am I also supposed to be trying to negotiate a non-promotion raise every 12 months?

vroombaprime 10y ago
General case (if you are at a startup this doesn't apply): Getting a raise and promotion are different things, though sometimes promotions happen at "raise time" (yearly review cycle). There are also "out-of-cycle" raises but those are generally for special cases where you need market adjustments or are a star performer. You _need_ to be getting a raise every 12 months just to keep up with inflation. If the company is doing fine and you are a top-50% performing employee you should be getting inflation+extra - if not, that is a bad sign. The 'extra' seems to vary a lot by industry, I've seen 1-10% from friends in other industries. We're talking about yearly review cycles here, so when it's approaching that time you need to be noting all the concrete work you've done, why it was great, and why you need to be in the "above/way-above average" raise bucket. You need to be managing your manager ahead of time so they think well of you and have already allotted a nice raise to you in the spreadsheet. Your negotiation is in the prep work with your manager: generally once the review happens things are already in motion and not much will change course.
- dfabulich 10y ago
  Well, yes, now that you mention it, those little across-the-board raises have occurred. I guess, to rephrase my question: am I doing myself a disservice if I'm not negotiating "raises" at my current pay grade but only attempting to earn "promotions" (which of course include pay increases)?

nachtigall 10y ago

4. Organize with (some of) your co-workers, maybe join a union. Act together instead of fighting for higher wages on your own. Seriously, the moment you are on a "secret" one-to-one with your boss you have already lost. There's reason why unions have always bargained collectively, and there's also reason why bosses have always tried to avoid this.

hueving 10y ago
I'm against them and I'm not a manager. They encourage stagnation due to rewarding seniority instead of contributions. If everyone in the union gets X% (with or without a seniority bonus), why would anyone give two shits about putting an effort in beyond the minimum. You want a taste of what a software dev union is like in the US? Join a government organization where income has almost no correlation with performance and you'll be ready to put a gun to your head after 6 months due to the glacial pace people work at (assuming you want to get things done efficiently).
- pitaj 10y ago
  This is great comment. Not necessarily because you're right (you are, at least regarding the current state of things) but because you bring up the biggest problem with unions in their current state. People don't have an issue with collective bargaining, they have a problem with the other negative effects of unions.
  - hiram112 10y ago
    I would be happy with an organization that would group together to avoid the use of body shops that push wages down across the board. The things that are happening Disney, Edison, and a lot of other places shouldn't be tolerated by software devs collectively.

NKosmatos 10y ago

No offense, but this is applicable in fairy land or in an idealized and fair society/economy. Sure there are exceptions and I bet there are software developers who get what they deserve, but the majority is in no position to negotiate a 3-5% raise. I'm sure that for someone working in Silicon Valley it's true but not for many countries I can think off (including Greece where I work).

ryandrake 10y ago
It's not necessarily true for Silicon Valley either. Despite the whole "shortage of engineers" fairy tale that just won't die, it's very much an employer's market, and employers are in the driver's seat when it comes to compensation.
- tedyoung 10y ago
  I think employers are in the driver's seat because of information asymmetry: they know what the market is and employees (probably) don't. The playing field can be leveled by looking around for information and, if necessary, job shopping. Even if you don't want to move companies, finding out what the market will pay you is the only way to really know.
- morgante 10y ago
  I feel like you should reassess. What makes you think it's an employer's market? Do you think Google/Facebook/etc. are paying $250k out of the goodness of their hearts? Just because your personal experience doesn't confirm that it's very much an employee's market doesn't make that false. Keep in mind that the market is very skill-sensitive. Not all positions have intense competition for employees, but there is a huge amount of demand for senior engineers who are well-versed in a web stack.

acconrad 10y ago

> If you negotiate an additional 5% raise every two years you’ll make up that gap in your starting salary by Year 6 Well if the average tenure of a software developer at a company is like 2-3 years, you will lose by asking for a raise and should just quit to go somewhere else!

z3t4 10y ago

You can not earn more then someone else is willing to pay .

draw_down 10y ago
Some are willing to pay more than others. :)

quizzas 10y ago

It really does depend on the organizational structure of the company, and whether they appreciate how difficult it is to replace programmers with an equally competent one. Most non-tech managers don't understand the intangible costs of replacing programmers, but that's never stopped them treating programmers like interchangeable cogs. If you work for a Fortune 500 non-technical company, I don't believe this strategy works to well.

Mandatum 10y ago

$100/hr: 120K yr for 3-day/wk contracts, I like long weekends.. Java dev.

Traubenfuchs 10y ago
As someone who doesn't earn quite as much, whose day job is maintaining and modifying big, monolithic and outdated Spring/Webflow/JSF applications from hell I'd like to ask you: What exactly are you doing and how do did you get there?
- Mandatum 10y ago
  Sorry for the late reply, I work in integration. I say I'm a Java dev but I don't write much Java, I've specialised for the past 3 years in an ESB called Mule. The need for the tech seems to be rising around the world and I just happened to pick it up on my first job (have been working "professionally" for 4 years). Didn't really start fully understanding the quirks and good ways of doing things with it until this year, but I was charging $80/hr 2 years ago. Seeing as you're already familiar with monoliths, I don't think it would be a very far jump for you if you were interested in the tech. You can get certifications for <$200USD with Mulesoft (a unicorn startup) which would guarantee you a decent salary, contracting on the other hand is a networking game. Write a blog, give talks, goto meetups and find companies that need your skills. Don't undervalue yourself, if you set your rate too low - your clients aren't going to like it in a years time when you've realised you're worth 2X and you start charging them 2X.

andrew_wc_brown 10y ago

At least in startups. You salaried gets lowered when funding gets tougher. This has happen to be at every startups I was employed at.

LouisSayers 10y ago

In my experience you'll be much better off just quitting and joining other companies, then going onto contracting. Here's my own person experience in just a few years: 1. Start off as a Grad on 30k GBP 2. One and half years later quit, onto another company at 48k GBP (>50% pay rise) 3. One and half years later quit. Do own thing for a year. Then go onto contracting at equivalent of 75k GBP (>50% pay rise) So in summary, in the span of a 4 year period, I've gone from 30k GBP to 75k GBP. There's definitely an upper limit on this of course. I think if I were to get out of startup land again now and focus on my salary I'd have to head to a different market (currently in Australia). I'd either aim for contracting in the UK where I know you can easily get 400-600 GBP per day, or the US where salaries for devs just seem higher. I'm playing long game though, taking the startup route. So I'll either be collecting change from the streets in a few years, or hopefully I'll be well ahead of the game. Will have to wait and see...

pitaj 10y ago
It sounds fairly logarithmic or logistic to me.
babbage141 10y ago
Contracting for startups at 75k GBP? Is this in London? What industry is the startup targeting?
- UK-AL 10y ago
  75 k is acutally low for contracting. Good contractors can hit 100k+
  - LouisSayers 10y ago
    Equivalent of 75K GBP - I moved to Australia and rates simply aren't as good
  - ciaranm 10y ago
    'working full time' != 'good'. Some of us choose not to work all year round.

deleted 10y ago

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jerkstate 10y ago

Q: How do I get a raise without changing jobs? A: Get a raise without changing jobs.

known 10y ago

Show https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm to your management

ensiferum 10y ago

Write more code... urgh... code is stupidly expensive to any organization and simple LOC should never be used as metric for anything. Basically all the suggestions are low level grass roots value proposals. This article has much better advice (IMHO) https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-ceo-heres-how-i-decide-whether-to-give-you-a-raise-or-lay-you-off https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-ceo...

agounaris 10y ago

Writing more code is definitely not the way to get a salary raise! Such a simplified and wrong post about salary negotiation...

rockshassa 10y ago

this "article" reads like it was written as propaganda by in-house HR to retain staff. 3% is basically a non-raise, it just keeps up with inflation. an extra 5% is alright, but is not adequate to retain talent who knows their worth. i once received an annual raise was 2.5%. i pushed back a bit but not too hard, as i've done this enough times to know that it is never worth the amount of stress involved. fast forward a few months, i'm walking out the door to a new gig with a signifigant increase (lets say 20%). old mgmt didnt see it coming, despite the ample warning i gave them, and ample opportunities to correct the situation. they never do, just accept it and move on