7 ms·

Chevy starts manufacturing the Bolt

41 points by _1 10y ago

ebbv 10y ago
This article contains a basic factual error. It mentions the BMW i3 as a long range EV. It's not long range in pure EV form, it's no longer than the Leaf. It only gets longer range when you add the REx which is a small combustion motor and turns the i3 into a hybrid like the Volt. Right now the ONLY choices for long range EVs are the Tesla Model S and Model X.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  What is the (completely arbitrary) limit for "long range EV" these days? Note that the 2017 BMW i3 now has a range of 112 miles without the range extender.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Probably the one set by Tesla which is 200 miles or more. Personally I would set long range EV even further in all honesty, basically a "long range EV" to me would be one capable of doing 6 hours a day @ 50mph which is 300 miles (with a small emergency reserve say 10-20 miles to get to a safe location). 6 hours is about what you should get in a daily drive of 8-9 hours including rest and comfort breaks. This gets less important as fast charging stations become more and more common, however it's still the case that a true long range EV should provide you with the ability to do a full day drive with overnight charging only. This isn't a requirement for EV to be viable for most people, It's not even a requirement for myself I just won't count them as long range transportation unless they either have a complete coverage of charging stations or a large enough battery to allow you to drive just slightly below highway speeds for effectively a day.
  - ebbv 10y ago
    Usually people are talking about 200 miles+ for "long range EV". The 2016 Leaf has a 120+ mile range.
Shivetya 10y ago
Really they need to stop comparing expected yearly sales of any care with the promised orders for the III. Those are not comparable. GM's big issue here is that if they don't want another black eye is they need to get this to all fifty states quickly. I do believe that creating a CUV is a far more ideal and popular platform than sedans. though if the III makes it in numbers to all markets before GM does with the Bolt I know which one will get my money
- ebbv 10y ago
  The Bolt will be available nationwide before the Model 3 is delivered to a single customer. The main problem GM has is that Tesla has built a proprietary charging network that the Bolt doesn't have. So even with 230 miles of range you still can't just get up and do a road trip in the Bolt as easily as you will be able to in a Model 3.
  - Waterluvian 10y ago
    If we had proprietary gas stations today, it would be just insane. This seems like something the government needs to regulate if the companies can't do it themselves.
    - codeulike 10y ago
      Maybe. It's not quite as simple as pumping liquid into a tank. There's all kinds of tech needed for high speed charging, both inside the car and outside. Standards will organically appear over time perhaps.
      - Waterluvian 10y ago
        You're right. Which suggests its even more important to regulate a standard. Having a period of competing standards will delay the proliferation of electric vehicles by complicating the charging story.
        10y ago
hyperbovine 10y ago
> The biggest limitation is cross-country travel. While Tesla has its Supercharger network to power some long trips, it's harder to guarantee that you can drive coast-to-coast in other EVs. How is this relevant? Most Americans will do this once or twice in their whole life.
- codeulike 10y ago
  They are using coast to coast as an example. What they mean is 'any journey over 200 miles'
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    How often do you drive on a trip lasting more than 4 hours? I'd guess about zero to four times a year? Because realistically, unless both your starting point and destination are on the same highway and there's no traffic, 200 miles will take 4 hours without breaks. If you can then stop somewhere with fast charging for your Bolt, after a 30 minute break (that you probably should have taken anyway), you have another 90 miles of range. If we take an example, LA to SF is 385 miles and cursory googling says the quickest route takes around 6 hours by car. In a Bolt, you'd have to stop for charging for an additional ~90 minutes. This is only 20 minutes more than what people on the Tesla forums report needing to do the trip in their Model S P85.
    - codeulike 10y ago
      Totally agree. I drive a Leaf and long distance is fine - with a bit of planning the charging happens on the breaks you would have had anyway.
  - cdumler 10y ago
    Just rent a gasoline car. I have a car with good gas milage. For trips, I always rent. If you have anything decent in range >600 miles, work out the math: generally, you pay less than expected cost of wear and tear and fuel with a rental, and you don't have it on your personal car. I want an electric, someday. I've watched my range in the city. My average day is 15 miles. My worse days are 70 miles. A 200 mile range would be amazing.
codeulike 10y ago
Have they released detailed pricing yet?
neals 10y ago
So if we put 'branding' and 'we love Elon' aside, where does this put Chevy and Tesla on the map of innovation and competition? Is Tesla still years ahead? Or has Chevy bought enough tech to have a comparable/better offering?
- johnm1019 10y ago
  I would say Chevy is years ahead because not only are the Bolts they are building today going on sale before the end of the year[0], they have years of experience and billions in assets designed to help them build cars. Tesla says the model 3 goes on sale "late 2017". By then we'll have the 2018 MY Chevy Bolt, which could be just as good or better? Or cheaper? [0] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-starts-producing-200-mile-230051013.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-starts-producing-200-mile-2...
- castratikron 10y ago
  One difference is that the Bolt has a permanent magnet motor while the Tesla has an induction motor. A PM motor is more efficient than an induction motor since the stator doesn't have to do the work to create a magnetic field in the rotor, so theoretically you should be able to get more distance per unit of battery energy than an induction machine. On the other hand, I think induction motors are cheaper than PM motors.
- vayeate 10y ago
  From what I can tell, the Tesla is better by every metric aside from potentially not being available as soon. Cheaper, faster, better tech, nicer interior, better range, faster charging, better charging network, the list goes on. And let's not forget the huge bonus of not having to go through dealership bullshit.
eliben 10y ago
The article mentions Lyft drivers getting their hands on the Bolt first. How does that make sense? Is a range of 200 miles really sufficient for the needs of a Lyft driver? Wouldn't it mean no more than 3-4 hours of driving per day? [wild guesstimate]
- mnwg 10y ago
  You think a taxi averages 50-66mph over 3-4 hours?
  - eliben 10y ago
    Depends where it's going, I guess? Other factors like A/C take as much power in stop-and-go as when driving. As I said, rough estimate. I would assume a typical taxi would drive more than 200 miles per working day; isn't this a reasonable assumption?
    - nickez 10y ago
      You dont have to assume when you have google, yeah it seems to be a bit below 200 miles per 12h shift..
    - taxicabjesus 10y ago
      > I would assume a typical taxi would drive more than 200 miles per working day; Depends on how much time you spend on the freeway. For me, a typical 12-hour shift covered about 200 miles. Some days I didn't work the full 12 hours; other days I 'got lucky' and had to cover a lot of ground. One of my better fares was a guy who'd pissed off his girlfriend by (probably) getting obnoxiously drunk at the Lakers/Suns game... It was 89 miles to get him home, then I had to drive 94 miles to get the cab back to the day driver: https://goo.gl/maps/4xFsvJtHzLK2 https://goo.gl/maps/4xFsvJtHzLK2 That story was at the close of this kuro5hin.org (RIP) diary: http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/04/22-degrees-of-intoxication.html http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/04/22-degrees-of-intoxication.h...
  - taxicabjesus 10y ago
    For a 12-hour shift, I'd typically travel 200 miles. A good day would be 250+. About 1/2 of those miles were with the meter on. Every so often I'd get a good fare going in the wrong direction - passenger was going east at the end of my day, and I'd have to backtrack empty to return the cab on the west side of the valley to the next driver. It was 94 miles to get back to the Valley from Globe...
kleigenfreude 10y ago
I'm still waiting on the Flybo Total Electric, a 4-speed manual electric car: http://auto.indavideo.hu/video/En_ettol_felek http://auto.indavideo.hu/video/En_ettol_felek Seriously though, think of all of the additional torque you could get with a quad motor Tesla and a clutch. Electric manufacturers are wimping out by saying it's enough already, and it would be hella fun.
- JshWright 10y ago
  For some niche "fun" car, sure. For a mass market vehicle, they would be nuts to increase the number of moving parts by a factor of 4 or 5.
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    Moving parts? An automatic transmission has many more parts. My biggest gripe with any vechicle has been the automatic transmission. An automatic transmission has a huge amout of parts. Too many for my taste. I really thought by now someone would have developed a simple automatic transmission, but it's just not a simple concept. A manual transmission is dead simple. Replacing a clutch is pretty simple. To poor people out there; If you can get a manual, over a automatic--get the manual. It will make your life simpler if drivetrain problems arise. They rear their ugly head at around 160,000 miles. That's if you can drive a stick? (Comming from someone who's been to automotive school. Off subject comming up. A few months ago I had a bad experience at AMMCO. I didn't come here to do this, but the franchise in Marin county is run by a questionable guy. He's either incompetent, or worse? If you(the new owner, who won't give complete rebuild costs) ever happen to see this--there are guys like me who know the lingo/game. Everything you claimed was wrong with the car was not right. I thought about Yelp, but I don't want to be that guy. I know it's difficult running shop. Stop with the b.s. Most AMMCO's I've dealt with are straight shooters. I did talk to him personally, and he changed his attitude once he knew what I was talking about. It's not suspose to be like that? We are definetly missing ethics/morals in so many professions. And I'll repeat, this is the first AMMCO I've ever questioned. They are a good franchise.)
  - kleigenfreude 10y ago
billhathaway 10y ago
I was really surprised that Chevy expects to make less than 30k Bolts in the first year. I wonder if that number is capped by anticipated demand, manufacturing ability, or trying to maximize number of vehicles sold with the tax credit.
adventured 10y ago
GM is sitting on $25.7 billion in cash, I can't imagine why they haven't built out a nation-wide charging network yet. Seems foolish to be that far behind on a fundamental piece of infrastructure while you're moving into selling mainstream EVs. Here's hoping they aggressively catch up.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  For the same reason there isn't a network of GM gas stations. They're not in that business, and companies that are have done the job already. There are more CCS fast charger stations than there are Tesla Supercharger stations, and the Bolt isn't even on the road yet. As far as catching up (while already ahead): https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama-administration-announces-new-actions-accelerate-deployment https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama...
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  It makes no sense that each manufacturer would have their own charging network.

41 points by _1 10y ago

ebbv 10y ago

This article contains a basic factual error. It mentions the BMW i3 as a long range EV. It's not long range in pure EV form, it's no longer than the Leaf. It only gets longer range when you add the REx which is a small combustion motor and turns the i3 into a hybrid like the Volt. Right now the ONLY choices for long range EVs are the Tesla Model S and Model X.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
What is the (completely arbitrary) limit for "long range EV" these days? Note that the 2017 BMW i3 now has a range of 112 miles without the range extender.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Probably the one set by Tesla which is 200 miles or more. Personally I would set long range EV even further in all honesty, basically a "long range EV" to me would be one capable of doing 6 hours a day @ 50mph which is 300 miles (with a small emergency reserve say 10-20 miles to get to a safe location). 6 hours is about what you should get in a daily drive of 8-9 hours including rest and comfort breaks. This gets less important as fast charging stations become more and more common, however it's still the case that a true long range EV should provide you with the ability to do a full day drive with overnight charging only. This isn't a requirement for EV to be viable for most people, It's not even a requirement for myself I just won't count them as long range transportation unless they either have a complete coverage of charging stations or a large enough battery to allow you to drive just slightly below highway speeds for effectively a day.
- ebbv 10y ago
  Usually people are talking about 200 miles+ for "long range EV". The 2016 Leaf has a 120+ mile range.

Shivetya 10y ago

Really they need to stop comparing expected yearly sales of any care with the promised orders for the III. Those are not comparable. GM's big issue here is that if they don't want another black eye is they need to get this to all fifty states quickly. I do believe that creating a CUV is a far more ideal and popular platform than sedans. though if the III makes it in numbers to all markets before GM does with the Bolt I know which one will get my money

ebbv 10y ago
The Bolt will be available nationwide before the Model 3 is delivered to a single customer. The main problem GM has is that Tesla has built a proprietary charging network that the Bolt doesn't have. So even with 230 miles of range you still can't just get up and do a road trip in the Bolt as easily as you will be able to in a Model 3.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  If we had proprietary gas stations today, it would be just insane. This seems like something the government needs to regulate if the companies can't do it themselves.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    Maybe. It's not quite as simple as pumping liquid into a tank. There's all kinds of tech needed for high speed charging, both inside the car and outside. Standards will organically appear over time perhaps.
    - Waterluvian 10y ago
      You're right. Which suggests its even more important to regulate a standard. Having a period of competing standards will delay the proliferation of electric vehicles by complicating the charging story.
      - 10y ago

hyperbovine 10y ago

> The biggest limitation is cross-country travel. While Tesla has its Supercharger network to power some long trips, it's harder to guarantee that you can drive coast-to-coast in other EVs. How is this relevant? Most Americans will do this once or twice in their whole life.

codeulike 10y ago
They are using coast to coast as an example. What they mean is 'any journey over 200 miles'
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  How often do you drive on a trip lasting more than 4 hours? I'd guess about zero to four times a year? Because realistically, unless both your starting point and destination are on the same highway and there's no traffic, 200 miles will take 4 hours without breaks. If you can then stop somewhere with fast charging for your Bolt, after a 30 minute break (that you probably should have taken anyway), you have another 90 miles of range. If we take an example, LA to SF is 385 miles and cursory googling says the quickest route takes around 6 hours by car. In a Bolt, you'd have to stop for charging for an additional ~90 minutes. This is only 20 minutes more than what people on the Tesla forums report needing to do the trip in their Model S P85.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    Totally agree. I drive a Leaf and long distance is fine - with a bit of planning the charging happens on the breaks you would have had anyway.
- cdumler 10y ago
  Just rent a gasoline car. I have a car with good gas milage. For trips, I always rent. If you have anything decent in range >600 miles, work out the math: generally, you pay less than expected cost of wear and tear and fuel with a rental, and you don't have it on your personal car. I want an electric, someday. I've watched my range in the city. My average day is 15 miles. My worse days are 70 miles. A 200 mile range would be amazing.

codeulike 10y ago

Have they released detailed pricing yet?

neals 10y ago

So if we put 'branding' and 'we love Elon' aside, where does this put Chevy and Tesla on the map of innovation and competition? Is Tesla still years ahead? Or has Chevy bought enough tech to have a comparable/better offering?

johnm1019 10y ago
I would say Chevy is years ahead because not only are the Bolts they are building today going on sale before the end of the year[0], they have years of experience and billions in assets designed to help them build cars. Tesla says the model 3 goes on sale "late 2017". By then we'll have the 2018 MY Chevy Bolt, which could be just as good or better? Or cheaper? [0] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-starts-producing-200-mile-230051013.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-starts-producing-200-mile-2...
castratikron 10y ago
One difference is that the Bolt has a permanent magnet motor while the Tesla has an induction motor. A PM motor is more efficient than an induction motor since the stator doesn't have to do the work to create a magnetic field in the rotor, so theoretically you should be able to get more distance per unit of battery energy than an induction machine. On the other hand, I think induction motors are cheaper than PM motors.
vayeate 10y ago
From what I can tell, the Tesla is better by every metric aside from potentially not being available as soon. Cheaper, faster, better tech, nicer interior, better range, faster charging, better charging network, the list goes on. And let's not forget the huge bonus of not having to go through dealership bullshit.

eliben 10y ago

The article mentions Lyft drivers getting their hands on the Bolt first. How does that make sense? Is a range of 200 miles really sufficient for the needs of a Lyft driver? Wouldn't it mean no more than 3-4 hours of driving per day? [wild guesstimate]

mnwg 10y ago
You think a taxi averages 50-66mph over 3-4 hours?
- eliben 10y ago
  Depends where it's going, I guess? Other factors like A/C take as much power in stop-and-go as when driving. As I said, rough estimate. I would assume a typical taxi would drive more than 200 miles per working day; isn't this a reasonable assumption?
  - nickez 10y ago
    You dont have to assume when you have google, yeah it seems to be a bit below 200 miles per 12h shift..
  - taxicabjesus 10y ago
    > I would assume a typical taxi would drive more than 200 miles per working day; Depends on how much time you spend on the freeway. For me, a typical 12-hour shift covered about 200 miles. Some days I didn't work the full 12 hours; other days I 'got lucky' and had to cover a lot of ground. One of my better fares was a guy who'd pissed off his girlfriend by (probably) getting obnoxiously drunk at the Lakers/Suns game... It was 89 miles to get him home, then I had to drive 94 miles to get the cab back to the day driver: https://goo.gl/maps/4xFsvJtHzLK2 https://goo.gl/maps/4xFsvJtHzLK2 That story was at the close of this kuro5hin.org (RIP) diary: http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/04/22-degrees-of-intoxication.html http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/04/22-degrees-of-intoxication.h...
- taxicabjesus 10y ago
  For a 12-hour shift, I'd typically travel 200 miles. A good day would be 250+. About 1/2 of those miles were with the meter on. Every so often I'd get a good fare going in the wrong direction - passenger was going east at the end of my day, and I'd have to backtrack empty to return the cab on the west side of the valley to the next driver. It was 94 miles to get back to the Valley from Globe...

kleigenfreude 10y ago

I'm still waiting on the Flybo Total Electric, a 4-speed manual electric car: http://auto.indavideo.hu/video/En_ettol_felek http://auto.indavideo.hu/video/En_ettol_felek Seriously though, think of all of the additional torque you could get with a quad motor Tesla and a clutch. Electric manufacturers are wimping out by saying it's enough already, and it would be hella fun.

JshWright 10y ago
For some niche "fun" car, sure. For a mass market vehicle, they would be nuts to increase the number of moving parts by a factor of 4 or 5.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  Moving parts? An automatic transmission has many more parts. My biggest gripe with any vechicle has been the automatic transmission. An automatic transmission has a huge amout of parts. Too many for my taste. I really thought by now someone would have developed a simple automatic transmission, but it's just not a simple concept. A manual transmission is dead simple. Replacing a clutch is pretty simple. To poor people out there; If you can get a manual, over a automatic--get the manual. It will make your life simpler if drivetrain problems arise. They rear their ugly head at around 160,000 miles. That's if you can drive a stick? (Comming from someone who's been to automotive school. Off subject comming up. A few months ago I had a bad experience at AMMCO. I didn't come here to do this, but the franchise in Marin county is run by a questionable guy. He's either incompetent, or worse? If you(the new owner, who won't give complete rebuild costs) ever happen to see this--there are guys like me who know the lingo/game. Everything you claimed was wrong with the car was not right. I thought about Yelp, but I don't want to be that guy. I know it's difficult running shop. Stop with the b.s. Most AMMCO's I've dealt with are straight shooters. I did talk to him personally, and he changed his attitude once he knew what I was talking about. It's not suspose to be like that? We are definetly missing ethics/morals in so many professions. And I'll repeat, this is the first AMMCO I've ever questioned. They are a good franchise.)
- kleigenfreude 10y ago

billhathaway 10y ago

I was really surprised that Chevy expects to make less than 30k Bolts in the first year. I wonder if that number is capped by anticipated demand, manufacturing ability, or trying to maximize number of vehicles sold with the tax credit.

adventured 10y ago

GM is sitting on $25.7 billion in cash, I can't imagine why they haven't built out a nation-wide charging network yet. Seems foolish to be that far behind on a fundamental piece of infrastructure while you're moving into selling mainstream EVs. Here's hoping they aggressively catch up.

dangrossman 10y ago
For the same reason there isn't a network of GM gas stations. They're not in that business, and companies that are have done the job already. There are more CCS fast charger stations than there are Tesla Supercharger stations, and the Bolt isn't even on the road yet. As far as catching up (while already ahead): https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama-administration-announces-new-actions-accelerate-deployment https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama...
Nullabillity 10y ago
It makes no sense that each manufacturer would have their own charging network.