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Banned from buying iPads... for life.
- jacquesm 17y agoExcellent reason to pay cash for your purchases, this is exactly the kind of privacy violation that people always think will never happen to them, but your credit card record is a nice way of tracking your previous interactions with the store. Besides that, they were welcome to not sell him his second one, so I think they really messed up there. As for being banned from buying ipads, he can always go to a different store and get them paid cash. Interesting how there is a 'lifetime limit' on customers buying your product, anybody else would be insanely happy about people buying more of the product. The stonewalling on how many items you're allowed to order is the best bit, not only is there a rule, but you're not allowed to know it.
- philwelch 17y agoThey probably have limits to avoid scalping. Some guy repeatedly coming in buying iPads 2 at a time fits the profile of a scalper, so they cut him off. There's probably an economics paper waiting to be written somewhere about how consumer electronics manufacturers and retailers handle these types of supply shortages.
- jacquesm 17y agoI'm sorry, but what is a 'scalper'?
- dschobel 17y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_scalping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_scalping
- vaksel 17y agopeople who buy products with limited supply that are in high demand and then resell at a premium. Very common for tickets(concerts, sports etc)
- jacquesm 17y agoRight, ok that explains a bit about the stores actions, but still the guy at least says he did not profit from this, in fact it took him time and all he did was recover his expenses.
- philwelch 17y agoFor every noble minded person who, out of the goodness of their own heart, runs other people's errands to the Apple Store, there's probably >1 scalper, on average.
- ErrantX 17y agoHow does Apple know that?
- jacquesm 17y agoPossibly because he told them? Maybe he's lying I don't know but I tend to believe people. I realize that's a serious shortcoming :)
- bena 17y ago"hoarders who were unloading iPads on eBay to cash in on the $150+ markup. Instead, my asking prices were very reasonable, just enough to cover all the tax, international express shipping, and Paypal fees with a little left over for unexpected costs" Notice how he specifically mentions a price for the "eBay hoarders", but avoids mentioning his markup. I wouldn't be surprised if his markup was close to $150 as well without actually ever being over. Like somewhere around $140. His story is contrived in a way to give you a good impression of him and a negative one of the Apple store employees. Another couple of telling parts in the story are: "reservations are limited to one per iTunes account. Luckily I have a second account so I used that to place the reservation" and "Ok, so the gig is up" followed by a whole unnecessary conversation. The first quote shows that he knows that what he is doing isn't exactly kosher with Apple. He is willingly and knowingly flaunting their policies. The second quote shows that he realizes he's been had. He already knows why he was busted, but he persists in trying to troll the employees into saying something slanderous, like euphemisms for the fact that he's an unauthorized reseller. I call into question the morals and ethics of the author of the post.
- ra88it 17y agoscalper: someone who buys something and resells it at a price far above the initial cost.
- ars 17y agoAll retail merchants do that. Sometimes people want to sell things for below their cost, to let more people enjoy them than otherwise would. A scalper takes advantage of this incorrectly low price, buys the item, and resells it for it's true market value.
- scott_s 17y agoExcept that scalpers are also a part of the market. When a large percentage of original purchases are by scalpers, they artificially up the market value.
- vetinari 17y agoThey still make market work the right way. Limited supply & higher demand -> price increase. They do not up market value (they up price). It is a side effect of artificial supply limit by the original vendor. If there is no artificial limit (tickets for example), it means that the price was too low in the first place and buyers are willing to pay more. Scalpers are market-based correction tool.
- jacquesm 17y agoInteresting. Your argument could be interpreted to read that apple misjudged their launch price.
- ars 17y agoYes, sort of. Yes apple could have made the launch price higher - but then they would have to lower it after the launch to get the rest of the customers. But the last time they did that, there was a firestorm as all the early customers were very mad at the very quick price reduction. So apple chose to start at the more longterm price. The correct way for them to handle it would be a premium or collectors or limited time edition. AKA the first ### buyers get a special dodad, or a signed shirt or some item to make them feel important. Then they pay extra, and don't feel cheated when it goes on sale at the regular market price.
- starkfist 17y agoA dude who resells tickets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_resale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_resale
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- barrkel 17y agoScalpers are a market-making phenomenon that occurs in free markets when a product has a set price that is artificially low for high demand; e.g. concert tickets, sports games tickets, etc.
- sp332 17y agoThis is scalping: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1295597 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1295597
- icefox 17y agoBingo! Not probably, it is very much the reason. They underestimated the demand and are attempting to prevent people like him from being a middle man. This isn't a big story.
- philwelch 17y agoIf it's an underestimate of demand, that seems like a very common mistake--most gaming consoles and new Apple products have this exact same problem. Either they're systemically "underestimating" demand to mitigate risk or increase the prestige of the product (by making it rare and hard to get), or the peak demand for something like an iPad or Wii within the first month is just completely beyond any reasonable manufacturing capacity. In an idealized market, of course, manufacturing capacity would ramp up with demand, but that's because price does, too. In reality, while the market price will go up enough for scalpers to play arbitrage, the producer doesn't capture this surplus and has no incentive to increase quantity supplied.
- gte910h 17y agoThe issue is that if you OVERSHOOT, you have inventory you paid for but do not get paid for in turn. You almost always want to undershoot.
- philwelch 17y agoThat's the risk mitigation part, and in the 90's Apple had a lot of problems like that (too much inventory of unwanted products) but then you start to wonder how, for instance, the Nintendo Wii went a whole year understocked.
- kd5bjo 17y agoIt costs money to retool a factory to produce something different. If the cost of lost sales due to undersupply is lower than the cost of setting up another factory, it makes sense to undersupply.
- unfletch 17y agoUnfortunately you must either use a credit card or leave empty-handed; Apple stores don't accept cash on these high-demand items in order to enforce this very policy. IIRC this was instituted some time after the launch of the original iPhone. That said, enforcement is at least a little spotty. There are reports of Apple Store employees helping customers circumvent the no-cash policy by taking the cash for a gift card, and immediately accepting the gift card for the original merchandise. In the other direction, there are also reports of purchases with gift cards being denied for the same reason as cash.
- piguy314 17y agoI wonder if they would accept a pre-paid credit card at the Apple store. These technically use the credit network the same as a regular credit card...
- alextingle 17y agoThey refuse cash?? WTF. Is that even legal?
- billswift 17y agoI wonder if that is even legal. I thought the legal tender laws required anyone to accept cash as payment for any debt.
- riffic 17y agodebt.
- eru 17y agoI guess you can pretend to pay with a credit card, then cancel the transaction (or something). Since you have the product now, you have a debt with them, and could pay them with cash. Of course, in theory they could counter that by having an artificial hight price (say a few millions), but give you a discount (down to the normal price) if you pay with a credit card. This way you wouldn't want to pay cash.
- 17y ago
- adnam 17y agoOr "Josef K. buys an iPad"
- d_c 17y agoHope there's no bug in it.
- jrockway 17y agoThe iPad is one big bug. Defective by design, if you will.
- mturmon 17y agoAn apple also figures in the story: "One day, when Gregor emerges from his room, his father chases him around the dining room table and pelts him with apples. One of the apples becomes embedded in his back, causing an infection. Due to his infection and his hunger, Gregor is soon barely able to move at all." (via wikipedia)
- rbanffy 17y agoActually, it was closer to a dozen iPads.
- duck 17y agoThis is by far the best article I have read about the iPad. It pretty much sums up Apple in so many ways - you follow their rules, some of which are unspoken, or you don't play.
- hackermom 17y ago"best article about the iPad"..? The article isn't really about the iPad at all. And I think you're exaggerating. It's not the first time a store or reseller puts a harsh limit on items (does the "one per household" term spring to mind at all?) It also seems as if the guy has been "ticket scalping", which I believe no reseller anywhere accepts. The entire experience the guy writes about is common practice like... everywhere.
- ugh 17y agoMy local supermarket has a small “no more than 5kg per purchase” sign next to the noodles.
- paulgb 17y agoIs this for a special price or regular price? Any ideas on why they do it?
- ugh 17y agoI have no idea why they do that. That’s why I remembered it :) It’s for the cheapest noodles, you can presumably buy as much brand name noodles as you like. Maybe their cheap noodles are even cheaper than the cheapest in the local wholesale market and they don’t want all the pizzerias within reach come rolling in.
- jrockway 17y agoIt also seems as if the guy has been "ticket scalping", which I believe no reseller anywhere accepts. I am sure if I bought 10 eeepcs or something from Amazon, they would be more than happy to fill my order. And if I wanted 10 more, they would send me those, too. It's like if you give them money, they give you the product, or something. Pretty awesome. Anyway, why doesn't the OP go to Best Buy or something to get the rest of the iPads? They probably don't care how many he buys. (Or rather, the shifts change frequently enough that nobody will recognize him.)
- josh33 17y agoCan anyone get this to load or did you copy the text. The site is down.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- brettnak 17y agoAFAICT, the site is working, just really, really slowly. Google Cache: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-week/+http://www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-week/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protoc... Bing Cache: http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=%22http+www+protocolsnow+com+2010+04+17+how+i+went+from+apple+store+newbie+to+lifetime+ban+in+one+week%22&d=1106445824185&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=a6ebafc1,c67ceb9a http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=%22http+www+protocolsnow+co...
- cscotta 17y agoI'm surprised by the outrage in this post. This is a very common - indeed, necessary - practice in retail. A friend of mine manages a high-end retail store in the area. He tells me that there are a number of people who match this buying profile. The products either show up on Craigslist, eBay, or are moved out of state to be sold elsewhere, often in markets the retailer is unwilling or unable to enter for a variety of reasons. Like it or not, in pretty much any retail environment, this practice is unacceptable. He also tells me that these small groups of people will often approach customers in the parking lot as they exit their vehicle, offering them cash to enter the store, buy the goods with a few crisp hundred-dollar bills, and to keep the change. This gray market is very real. Beyond that, the guy admits he knew of the policy and was willingly violating it. There's really not much room for outrage here.
- viraptor 17y agoWhy would a high-end retail store care? They sell some product. They might be unwilling or unable to enter some market - and this guy does it for them. The retail store still receives the money and people who get the product are aware of the fact that they paid more than they would at the shop. I still don't get why this practice is unacceptable. The shop doesn't seem to lose anything here.
- DrJokepu 17y agoBecause they feel that shopping experience is part of their brand and people buying their "high-end" products in large quantities just to sell them elsewhere would hurt the brand on long term. Don't forget that Apple is very careful about its brand and image. I'm not saying I agree with this practice, that's just the reason this is disallowed.
- mnemonicsloth 17y agothey feel that shopping experience is part of their brand You're right, but say it like you mean it. They treat your opinion of their company as their property. That's what having a brand means.
- S_A_P 17y agoI wonder what his definition of "Just a little bit extra" was. This seems fishy to me.
- mr_justin 17y agoExactly. The whole thing is fishy imo. Buying iPads privately and shipping them worldwide?
- dareiff 17y agohttp://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-week/+how+i+went+from+apple+store+newbie+to+lifetime+ban+in+one+week&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protoc... Text-only cache.
- starkfist 17y agoBanning people who are obviously buying stuff for resale is extremely common in luxury goods retail. There's a book "Bringing Home the Birkin" about a guy who had an entire lifestyle based around skirting Hermes rules about buying too many Birkin bags.
- thestoicattack 17y agoI have no problem with the iPad-limit policy. The annoying part was that the clerk was not able to volunteer any information at all about what the policy actually says. From the customer's tone it seems like he wasn't going to throw a fit, but it would be nice if Apple were slightly more forthcoming.
- bartl 17y ago>The annoying part was that the clerk was not able to volunteer any information at all about what the policy actually says. That was probably because they were making it up on the spot.
- jasonlotito 17y agoWhich is their MO, when you consider the App Store.
- bphogan 17y agoI don't know - I doubt it. I've dealt with situations like this before. The clerk is told by his boss what to say. In this case he probably is not allowed. He phrased it very specifically if you notice. "All I can say is..." It probably is all he can say.
- po 17y agoso… his manager was making it up on the spot.
- evo_9 17y agoI think it's f-n awesome he got banned for life. If you read the article carefully he tells you the reason why - he is buying and selling these marked up (though he 'claims' he wasn't as bad as others - yeah right!). I hate duecebags like this... you didn't play by the rules and you got burned. So it goes. Oh and really what does it matter, if the guy wants an ipad legit he can get someone to buy him one later. Or get it used off ebay later. This will just stop his bs mark-up scam, and probably scare off others doing it.
- Nask26 17y agoIf I remember correctly he was charging 650$ for a 16gb. Hardly making a profit after all the fees and shipping.
- evo_9 17y agoAh well, didn't know that price, drag for him. Either way, it's not a big deal, he can still easily buy them if he really wants too. I think people would have a different reaction if this was their company. They have the right to decide how and when they roll their products out, and mostly this is an effort to keep the 'pro' traders at bay. They know this just makes it harder, it doesn't stop them, but it slows them down.
- bartl 17y ago>if the guy wants an ipad legit he can get someone to buy him one later. How can you call that "legit", as it is exactly what he got banned for, and could get that "someone" banned, too?
- mikecane 17y agoThe iPads were being shipped out of the country. Are there certification/liability issues involved here where Apple is not permitted to put a device on sale unless approved by gov't regulators? Could this be a factor? I recall how Israel has been (still is?) banning and confiscating the iPad.
- VBprogrammer 17y agoIt is very unlikely that the liability could be transfered to Apple in this case. Of course IANAL.
- eplanit 17y agoWear it like a Badge of Courage. You've certainly helped highlight Apple's narcissism and tendency towards being a god-damned control freak. Making and selling products is about making and selling products. They sold a bunch to this guy -- customers are to be appreciated. Volume and repeat customers, who expose your wares to larger audiences, are to be cherished. Apple? they abuse them. Substitute 'developer' for 'customer' in the above -- still true.
- joubert 17y agoA store PowerBook ?
- jcmhn 17y agoFactor in the innate hilarity of anything involving the iCult with the soup nazi reference and you have what the kids call "comedy gold". There isn't any outrage here, just slightly amused contempt for the ridiculous way the retail drones handled things.
- madair 17y agoIt's a good example of how corporate policies create a pseudo-government and censorship environment, and our ethical ideas have not caught up to deal with it. Let's keep in mind WHY he was doing it: to send to other countries. But that's okay to bar him, because Apple doesn't explicitly mention race or nationality, they just don't sell them elsewhere. So what we've got is a type of class-system based on nation states and residencies. And most people consider that normal and reasonable. In my opinion this classism is not a minor issue, and in the future it's going to be a bigger as the U.S. steadily loses economic superpower status, whether it happens now or later. Or instead imagine Apple as a Chinese company and China continues its progress and actually manages to usurp the United States as economic superpower and someone gets banned for life for purchasing an iPad for American friends. Seems sorta craptacular all of a sudden.
- madair 17y agoAlso today: the Hitler parodies getting taken down from YouTube.
- rbanffy 17y agoI agree Apple has to limit the number of unit purchased per individual, but a lifetime ban? On an undisclosed policy? The "undisclosed" part is what bothers me more. I was banned from AdSense for some reason Google can't tell, but when I asked them to check if whatever I did was really done, they came back a week later saying "yes, we checked it and you pretty much did whatever we said you did, but we still won't tell you what you did" If someone writes me a letter stating I am in violation of such and such policy, I go in and fix whatever is wrong. I can't fix stuff they don't tell me. In the end it was good. My blog makes a couple times more money now than it did with AdSense.
- evgen 17y agoIf they tell you and everyone else trying to game the system and find loopholes then the policy becomes much more complicated than it needs to be. There is a reason laws are written in a specific sort of legal jargon, and most stores would probably like to avoid this situation. The general policy of most stores in my experience has been "don't be a dick", but for some reason people seem to think they are entitled to get a written copy of the policy (usually so they can see if there are any loopholes they can take advantage of...)
- rbanffy 17y agoIn this case, it wouldn't need to be much more complicated than "not more than two per month". Lifetime ban? Come on!
- DLWormwood 17y agoI ended up missing out on the first shipment of iPads to Toledo, OH due to similar caginess by my local retailer. After finding out on the evening news that the device sold out here, I visited the store in person to complain. The store owner(?) was very apologetic to me, explaining that Apple gave them a very strict script they had to follow when fielding questions before the release. They couldn't even tell me that they were getting any at all on launch day, or that even putting down my name was pointless. (In retrospect, some of their choices of wording to me over the prior month should have tipped me off to wait before the store opened. Afterwards, the store guy confessed that they weren't even allowed to recommend that!) Things finally did work out in the end... -- Sent from my iPad ;-)
- stevederico 17y agoI like Apple Products, but I hate Apple Retail stores. I buy online every time.
- pathik 17y agoROFL.. "All I can say is that you have reached your lifetime limit."
- jonknee 17y agoI wonder how would go about buying iPads for your company... One of my clients is going to need ~6 for his sales staff.
- kordless 17y agoHave them expense it? Of course then you limit their ability to buy more themselves!