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Given all the Apple bashing, I can not see a decent alternative being mentioned? Everybody is furious about the new Mac, where does this expectation come from?
by eknkc 10y ago
Given all the Apple bashing, I can not see a decent alternative being mentioned? Everybody is furious about the new Mac, where does this expectation come from?
I need a new laptop, my older MBP had some unfortunate accidents. I tried to find a better one than the new MBP. I honestly could not. This new MBP seems to be the best ever laptop I can buy at this moment. I guess it would be better if it had 32gb ram option or a newer gen CPU. Still, nothing else seems to come close.
If you don't agree, please help me with my decision:
- Unix. Linux is fine though but I prefer macOS.
- A high resolution display.
- A good, large trackpad and good software support for that.
- I can work with ~4-5 hours of battery life.
- Something portable. Been carrying this thing all day every day.
- Don't really care about graphics performance.
Any suggestions?
- justinkramp 10y agoCompletely agree. I'd love a laptop that performed as well as the 2012 MBP I lug around, with updated ports, less weight, and more RAM. I don't need a touchscreen function row. I don't want Windows, dropping Linux on an Asus or HP mid- or high-end laptop might suffice but there are enough stories about malfunctioning wifi or sound to ward me away from that.
- PretzelPirate 10y agoNot that I have any opinion on whether you get a MBP or not, but have you tried the Dell XPS line: https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Dell-XPS-15-9550-Signature-Edition-Laptop/productID.326871600 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Dell-XP... Obvious it doesn't run OSX. I run Linux on mine and it works great.
- eknkc 10y agoI gave the XPS 15" a serious consideration. Wasn't gonna wait for the Apple event and buy one a month earlier. Then I read a lot of horror stories. Couldn't be sure about reliability. Doesn't really offer too much over the MBP I guess? It was faster as month earlier but the new ones should be on par. If my main OS was Linux it could be the best choice. I wonder if my concerns about reliability is bogus. Gotta check a little more about reviews.
- Illniyar 10y agoI own the new xps 15. Best laptop I have seen yet. No complaints. Great screen, color calibration, cpu, size, weight, good keyboard when on the lap (could be better on a desk), smooth trackpad. Battery lasts about 4 hours of programming work, 6 or so browsing. What horror stories have you heard?
- eknkc 10y agoMostly about poor external display connectivity, poor trackpad accuracy and annoying coil whine. I saw 2-3 people mention the trackpad as a con and that was actually enough for me to keep waiting for Apple's event. Maybe those were isolated incidents. Also there are a lot of XPS models, gotta check for a specific one I guess.
- izzard 10y agoStrange feedback about the trackpad, I actually think this is the best I've ever used on a Windows laptop. FWIW, I've read a lot about the 'coil whine' too, but neither of my XPS laptops have that problem. Not sure what to make of it.
- zumzumzum 10y agoThe trackpad is pretty good for a windows laptop, maybe the best aside from the Surface Book, but still not as good as a MBP. It also has problems registering two finger right click. I had some driver issues on my XPS15 that led to dispay flicker, and also Windows is braindead when it comes to external display management, even though OSX isn't perfect either. I had no coil whine. It's not bad, but when you're coming from a MBP, the XPS15 still needs refinement. I will admit that I might just be used to all of OSX's little quirks and issues, and that the new ones seem more painful on the XPS15 just because they're new. But I don't know, I have Win10 on my desktop and it's fast and I love it, but on a laptop it's pretty annoying. I just feel more expressive on a OSX laptop. I can't get over switching from cmd-stuff with my thumb to ctrl-stuff with my pinky.
- Illniyar 10y ago
- dugmartin 10y agoI run Windows 10 on my XPS 15, hooked up to a 42" 4K TV for a monitor using HDMI - it works great except for a couple of Windows programs that don't scale up correctly. I run the 42" TV at 200% because I don't want to squint all day.
- rhelsing 10y agoI'd suggest taking a look at https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops
- xbrother 10y agoAs former customer I don't recommend them. They have an excellent hardware inside but very bad quality for chassis and assembly.
- mipmap04 10y agoThe Dell XPS 15 9550 is a solid option.
- izzard 10y agoAgreed, I have one and I love it. By the way, the XPS 13 has been upgraded to intel's latest (Kaby Lake?), but the XPS 15 hasn't yet. It's probably coming any day, so if you're thinking about purchasing you might want to wait a couple weeks.
- ShaneOG 10y agoI don't think it'll be "any day", from what I've heard online it's more likely to be Q1/Q2 2017.
- acomjean 10y agoI'm not sure its pure bashing, I think its just general frustration. Using a mac was always involved a level of trust. They made machines that were good enough to keep buying. They were pricey but always had good connectivity, even if it wasn't always a standard connection (firewire...). But if you want a mac, its not like you have a lot of other options besides what apple puts out. The new machine is not completely terrible though it means dongles.. Lots of dongles. Needs more RAM, the SDHC slot (every camera still uses these) and a couple plain usb3.0 ports (external drives are useful and aren't all usb C yet). I use my machine portably and "docked attached to monitors" at work. The new function keys bar is useless to me when at work.
- Theodores 10y agoWhat the article misses is that the new connector is a new way of working: At your desk you have some mini docking station that powers your laptop and connects it to monitors, wired mice, the Wacom tablet, the network, the thumb drive, speakers, cameras, mobile phones and everything else. Then, on the road or at home you just have the one dongle that you plug normal USB stuff, the ethernet and maybe an SD card into. You power the computer with the adaptor it came with and not the docking station. In this new future there is one or maybe two leads connecting the computer to stuff. It does not have a forest of leads sprouting out of every side except the front, everything is neat and less likely to break. I am not an Apple fan and I prefer mini USB to whatever it is those Apple things have. However I think Apple are right to sort the ports out properly. The other oft-quoted problem with the new Apple machines is the max memory, I feel that some explanation is needed for that as quite a few Intel high end low power CPUs are limited to 16Gb RAM, as are their own NUC computers. So there is nothing sinister going on here, it is just a choice of low power/battery life/cooling that Intel have forced on their customers where the compromise is the 16Gb max RAM.
- plussed_reader 10y agoExcept the IO is split between two sides of the new machine. Maybe each connection has its own bus, but if its like thunderbolt on the MBPs with a physical FW800, those two ports share a bus. That still means half of the IO would not be useable in a 'dock' situation. No more docking to one side of the machine...
- bit_logic 10y agoWhen my current MBP eventually dies, I'm seriously considering going back to windows. With the new Windows Linux Subsystem, it removes the biggest issue I had with windows. Apple hardware was always superior for a long time, but PC laptops are finally becoming just as good (maybe because of the strong push by Microsoft Surface).
- eknkc 10y agoYeah I also considered that. Got a VM instance and tried a couple of times. It works when it works. There are a lot of rough edges. Now, if we give that a couple of years to mature. I might go back to Windows too. Seems like a reasonable setup if it works perfectly.
- slantyyz 10y agoIt depends on how nitpicky you are, but I switched to Windows 10 and like it a lot. I haven't tried the new Windows Linux Subsystem because I've been using Cmder since I switched, and for -my- needs (ymmv), it's just as good as Terminal on OSX. My overall workflow on Windows is about the same as it was on OSX.
- ChuckMcM 10y agoI brought up the Linux subsystem on my Surface book, copied over all of my embedded systems development tool chains and it just worked. (previously I'd boot a Linux VM and run from there). So for that limited test case it worked flawlessly and it means I don't need putty any more (just use ssh out of the shell).
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y agoWow, can you let me know which Surface book and Linux distro? I like the look of the new Windows laptops too but figured they would never run Linux :)
- ChuckMcM 10y agoThe unexpected thing is that it isn't a "distro" it is part of Windows 10. Microsoft created a kernel shim, which is part of the standard release now, that creates a Linux ABI into the NT kernel. As a result, Linux userland code just assumes its running on Ubuntu and as far as I have been able to ascertain it just works. All my bash scripts, all my perl code, all my python code, just runs. That said, I've not used tools that open windows so I've been all command line.
- derekp7 10y agoLenovo Thinkpad T460s can go 2560x1440 (so not super high resolution, but not really bad either), 10 hours battery. Certified for RHEL 7.2 and Ubuntu 14.04. For more portability, the X260 is good too (1920x1080 in a 12.5 inch screen), and currently certified for Ubuntu 14.04. See https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426 https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426 for certification information. I've been using the X230 as my daily driver for a while, and it's held up quite well running Fedora. The trackpad was a bit jittery, but that just required a quick parameter fix in Xorg.conf (I don't think that is even required anymore). The only complaints, are that Lenovo has pulled some stunts before, mostly with their non-thinkpad line, such as Superfish. Or the recent issue with a Microsoft-specific release of one of their Yoga machines. But, stick to the models on the Linux certified list, and it should be OK. Other than that, it would be nice to get a 3k or 4k screen, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that would be a big deal on a smaller sized screen. As long as it is above 1080 vertical (I have issues with some IDEs default layout on my current X230 with a 720 vertical resolution screen). But the newer models are available with at least 1080.
- eknkc 10y agoWow these look god awful but they weight a lot less than the MBPs so that's a huge selling point for me. Thanks for mentioning these. However, after all those shady stuff they did, makes it hard to go for Lenovo.
- kyriakos 10y agounfortunately most enterprise/workstation grade notebooks from Lenovo are ugly, talking from my experience though they are workhorses and can take a lot of misuse before anything breaks. their consumer models tend to have better aesthetics.
- op00to 10y agoI used to love Lenovo - I had a T40, T60, T420s, T440, and a T460. Each one, in the first year I had them, were awful with Linux, but over time they got better. Under Linux, no Lenovo matched the battery life, screen quality, build quality, or touchpad quality of my MacBook Pro. They were usable, but nowhere near as intuitive to use as my MBP. Example: Sleep, on the Lenovos w/ Linux, is a crapshoot. There seemed to be a 50% chance that any time I pulled the Lenovo out of my bag that it would be dead because it never really slept. I never had this problem with any Mac laptop. Battery life, which is a similar situation, also can't be compared. I remember once having to crawl around on the floor under a table at a client site because my Lenovo was dying mid-presentation. All the clients laughed because they had Macs, and only plugged in at night to charge. Windows is a non-starter for me, and even now Linux is just not well supported enough for a daily driver laptop. I'll gladly remap caps lock to avoid the certain bug-opening that comes with a Linux laptop.
- Arelius 10y agoI know they are designed for the niche of gaming, but Razer has a line of laptops that are very well designed, and if you can handle the black-and-green, almost as nice looking as macbooks. And Linux should run fine on them. http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth-6500U http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth-...
- zumzumzum 10y agoI recently tried to switch away from my MBP. I boiled down the options to the xps 15, razer blade, and the surface book. The SB didn't have enough gpu for my needs, and the other two looked good online until I went to use them in person. It was immediately obvious that the xps 15 was the better machine. The razer blade still has two mouse buttons and you can't click on the trackpad, this is a huge deal breaker for me. I'd try to use one in person before settling on them. Also the gigantic bezel on the screen looks super dated. They look better online. I ended up using the XPS15 and it was pretty good for a windows laptop, but ultimately I returned it too. Haven't found a solid windows laptop I liked. If I didn't want to do a touch of gaming on it, I think the next-gen SB will have a ton of potential.
- archagon 10y agoWith any luck, someone will release a compact external graphics chip/card for TB3 in the near future — and then you'll be able to get any TB3-sporting notebook you like without having to worry about graphics perf for gaming.
- vladimir-y 10y agoIt's actually already on the market - Acer Graphics Dock, size: 245 x 130 x 22.8 mm (B x T x H), Weight:700 grams, review - http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Graphics-Dock-with-Nvidia-GTX-960M-Review.175429.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Graphics-Dock-with-Nvidia-... I hope Acer is going to update it with newest Nvidia/AMD cards which will make it a perfect graphics dock choice, not so large and expensive as Razer, AKiTiO Thunder3 and other ridiculous boxes.
- webkike 10y agoI'd like all that AND the ability to know with confidence that I can plug into any HDMI/Lightning projector and it will just work. As much as I prefer Linux I don't really care about programming on laptops, I like laptops as portable projector machines.
- GrinningFool 10y agoI've had a lot of luck with Sager. Previously alienware was a good fit, though you lost the 'cheaper than a mac' advantage most others give. I don't get the battery life, and I imagine some tweaking would be required to do so. I've not had a problem with trackpads on linux, after accounting for the 'set up synclient to run on startup so I don't accidentally scroll' that's been annoyingly necessary forever. In the end, with Sager I get more memory + more max memory, faster CPU, larger SSD + secondary TB HDD for quite a bit less than a maxed out MBP. I haven't compared against the new specs yet, but I imagine it'll be consistent. My machine also typically outperforms mac-using coworkers for common dev tasks, but this is anecdotal and not measured.
- mastre_ 10y agoCurious, which Sager and what config do you have?
- slantyyz 10y agoWithout getting into the weeds of OSX license compliance, if you absolutely must have macOS but want to use something else as hardware, you can try Hackintoshing it [1]. You can also consider running an OSX VM, but the same licensing issues apply, plus consider the fact that OSX guests on VMWare don't support graphics acceleration. You also have to patch VMWare to support a non OSX host. [1] Hardware compatibility list: http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
- op00to 10y agoI can't imagine a worse idea for a system used for business than a Hackintosh. Does the thought process really go like this: "Hey, let me load totally un-trusted, un-signed drivers onto a system that's not licensed to run the OS! It could break at every upgrade! I could be installing a keylogger that sends my credentials to Russia! What could go wrong!"
- slantyyz 10y agoI don't like them because they require a lot of time and patience, but if I'm not mistaken, if you pick the right set of hardware, you don't really need any additional drivers, and those machines can update fine (or at least they used to - it's been over a year since I checked this stuff out). Most people use the OS installers downloaded from their own App store account and make a boot key so those should be safe too. TonyMac makes a regularly updated list of hardware components [1] (mostly desktops) that should provide the fewest compatibility issues for those who are interested in making a Hackintosh. [1] https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/october/2016 https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/october/2016
- op00to 10y agoMacOS has special hardware checks that prevent installation on non-Apple systems. The "installers" used to build the installation USB drives insert kernel modules that fool these hardware checks. Do you trust the installers not to root your system? How about the 3rd party kexts? Is saving a few hundred or thousand bucks worth risking your data security?
- dre85 10y agoI have a Dell xps 13 with skylake. I absolutely love it. They even have kabylake now and it's cheaper than the mbp.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y agoGet the 2015 MacBook Pro. You retain HDMI, SD card port, and normal USB ports. It's cheaper and the processor is so close to the new one that you won't notice the difference. If GPU performance is important, then I might consider the 2016 one. But then you still have to ask yourself if the price increase for the 2016 model is worth it over the 2015 model. Wait a few years for USB-C to become a more widely used port. I can't imagine that Apple won't soon move the iPhone to USB-C (or they're waiting for wireless charging to get better). I think that is why this story is getting so much press. People have been waiting for Apple to refresh Macs with something meaningful and all we got is a digital menu bar that could turn out to be a total gimmick (or developers never adopt it) and a substantial price increase from the previous generation. And on top of that, it just appears that Apple has no cohesive strategy for how Macs fit into the Apple ecosystem. I have been using Macs since the 90s but this is the first time I'm thinking about switching to PC hardware and just running Linux. I have the 2015 model so I'll probably just wait for that to die and then switch.
- plussed_reader 10y agoWhy not reuse your older hardware and use a linux distro on the MBP?
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y agoIf I can get everything to function in Linux and it not be unstable or buggy, I will do that.
- rasabatino 10y agoThere isn't a better option, people are just mad that they did not get X feature that they really wanted. Come this time next year 90% will be using the new MBP because it's a damn good machine and developing in MacOS is simply more comfortable.
- vladimir-y 10y agoAlready proposed a few laptop models here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12816033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12816033
- hashhar 10y agoI am just curious why so many devs seem to like MacOS more than Linux and what's with the need for super high resolutions. On the other hand, I really agree with your points about large touchpad, good battery and portability. Also include SSD and the ability to swap out the CD/DVD for another disk drive.
- bunderbunder 10y agoThe super high resolutions are just a pleasantry - I don't think you get any more screen real estate on a Retina display, but overall it's just easier on the eyes. Easy on the eyes is a pretty nice thing to have in something you stare at all day. Beyond that, I think it's just some of the subtle ease of use things. I strongly prefer OS X's implementation of virtual desktops over anything I've used on Linux; the UX is just smoother. All in all, all the Linux desktops just end up feeling a bit more fiddly to use, which leaves me feeling like I'd rather have Aqua than any Linux desktop as my main UI. Installing userland software also gets a bit obnoxious on Linux, owing to there being eleventy-seven different package managers to deal with, none of which include everything you might want, so you're inevitably stuck dealing with some bits manually, which, again, is just an annoyance. And heck, 20something years since dpkg first hit my radar I'm still having to fiddle with dependency conflicts, which is something that I've never experienced with OS X style bundles. I'll gladly swap the minor loss of disk space that comes with not relying on shared libraries for the convenience of drag-and-drop installation whenever possible.
- hashhar 10y agoI agree about the HiDPI issues and userland software that is not packaged. I find the best Virtual Desktop (Workspaces) implementation to be that of i3wm. I can spin up as many as I want, on the fly, using a keycombo and even ask apps to open up on a specific workspace.
- MisterBastahrd 10y agoI prefer Linux to both, but the desktops universally suck. The closest one to being decent is Ubuntu, but forcing the app bar to be on the side of the screen is a non-starter to me, and every single third party bar in existence is terrible.
- grzm 10y agoI think you're right in thinking about this. Something to keep in mind is that Apple bashing/second guessing has been going on for a long long long long time. (Other companies, too. It's not unique to Apple). Do you agree with what people are saying about the new MacBook Pros? What are your specific needs? Does it look like the right machine for you for the next few years? What are you going to be using the machine for? Given the list you've provided, I think it's likely the MacBook Pro would work for you. But like I said, it matters what you're using it for. Yours may not be the same as those who believe the new MacBooks are not right for them. It's really what's right for you.
- eximius 10y agoDell XPS 13 is what I have and it's okay. I would prefer the trackpad have buttons instead of just being a single surface, but I can't find that on any laptops anymore.
- Human_USB 10y agoThe Razer Blade Stealth[1] [1] http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth
- gshulegaard 10y agoDude...get a Dell: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop?c=us&l=en&s=biz http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt... On another note, System76 has great hardware support...but outsources their hardware to Clevo: https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ I have owned both. Battery life on the Dell, even with the 4K touchscreen shocked me (in a good way). Both come with Ubuntu pre-installed.