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The Drug War seems so out of control and Orwellian at this point, that I unfortunately can't think of any way to stop it, as long as the general public thinks t

The Drug War seems so out of control and Orwellian at this point, that I unfortunately can't think of any way to stop it, as long as the general public thinks that it's somewhere in the range of "overbearing but necessary" to "annoying and probably evil but doesn't really affect me". I'm excited by the chinks in the armor that have come with marijuana legalization/decriminalization, and I think once that spreads across much of the US, some of the Drug War will have lost its teeth, but I don't imagine it will make a large dent the surveillance industry. Now that we have built the infrastructure, conceived of parallel construction, etc there will always be a shadowy enemy lurking in our midst that we need to turn it on. Its kinda like having a giant military-industrial complex. You really can't sustain it without war, yet it has its own momentum and seeks to sustain itself, so it makes war more likely.

knz 10y ago
> Now that we have built the infrastructure How successful is the drug war? The recent headlines related to heroin seem to imply that it's been a failure. Before that there was a meth crisis and before that there was likely something else. Is enforcement actually reducing the negative social impacts of substance abuse? It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  It is very successful in incarcerating a ton of people and providing lots of money for people involved in it. It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    It's a national make-work program that builds broken lives.
    - sfrailsdev 10y ago
      Hey don't forget super cheap labor in the form of prisoners
      - a3n 10y ago
        Coincidentally, there's a measure on the Colorado ballot this year (I voted for it), that removes a state constitutional exception to allow slavery for punishment of convicted criminals. Slavery, in the Colorado and many other state constitutions, is explicitly forbidden. Colorado, at least, allows an exception for convicted criminals. I can't believe it's 2016 and I find myself having to say "yup, slavery is bad, let's not do that."
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Convicts have most of their rights abrogated. Its essentially slavery however you label it? Just like killing folks for high crimes is not 'murder', imprisoning folks and making them work for their keep is not 'slavery'.
        rhizome 10y ago
        Killing people for high crimes is not murder, but it is listed as homicide on their death certificate. I'm not sure of the distinction you're making, but you may be confused about categories of slavery, of which chattel slavery (what the US had until 1865) is only one. You may be thinking of indentured servitude, but even that doesn't map precisely to prison labor.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, it is slavery, which is why in order to not prohibit it, the 13th Amendment include an express exception for criminal punishment when otherwise abolishing slavery.
        a3n 10y ago
        Here's 100 jobs in this building. It's 100 jobs that have to be done, that people will pay for the result. They aren't great jobs, say maybe $13/hour, but they're jobs. Except no, we're not going to let 100 people have those $13/hour jobs. Instead, we're going to have 100 prisoners do those jobs for free, or next to nothing. Sorry prisoner slaves. Sorry free citizens. EDIT: And oh, we also have to pay guards to watch them do those jobs. So not free labor, not really.
  - dgudkov 10y ago
    It's hard to protect individuals from something that they're actively looking for. How can you fight drugs if there are so many people willing to buy them?
    - xtian 10y ago
      Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities. If what you find extends beyond mere curiosity, then address those things.
      - beambot 10y ago
        Lots of things alter your subjective reality: reading (books, news, Reddit), watching TV and movies, imagination, travel, drugs, art, music, meditation, diversity, etc. The reasons for why people seek them out are just as varied. Not sure why chemical substances used moderately and responsibly get a bad rap...
        dpc59 10y ago
        Because people who don't use substances only see the people who don't use them responsibly as "substance users". They can't tell for all the other people, so to them drug abuse is inherent to drug use.
        pizza 10y ago
        Probably related to the 'sacrifice' of the basically-exiled users who had nowhere to get external help for moderating use.
        xtian 10y ago
        Right and so if the reasons are benign then there's nothing to be done. Sorry if that was unclear.
      - jamestnz 10y ago
        > Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities Some years ago I read an interesting book on this, called The Pursuit of Oblivion[1]. In addition to providing a fascinating look at historical drug use across different cultures, the book also makes the general argument that the human drive to alter one's consciousness is as natural and inherent as the drives for food, sex, etc. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narcotics/dp/0393325458 https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narco...
  - ythl 10y ago
    > It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse. I wouldn't say that. For generally law-abiding citizens like me, the lack of availability has done wonders to protect me from drugs. At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. Making all drugs legal and accessible will definitely have a negative impact on one portion of the population (curious people like me). A certain percentage of curious but otherwise law-abiding people will destroy their lives once drugs are legalized.
    - chimeracoder 10y ago
      > At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. There are a lot of assumptions in there - the biggest one is that, in a legal market, drugs which are currently illegal today would still be more dangerous than drugs which already are legal. That's a big assumption, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. For example, the success of diacetylmorphine maintenance strongly suggests that it is just as possible to be a regular user of heroin as it is to be a person who drinks regularly in the evenings but otherwise lives a 'normal' life. On that note, we dramatically overestimate the danger of drugs like cocaine and dramatically underestimate the danger of drugs like alcohol and caffeine. Alcohol, incidentally, is one of the only drugs for which the withdrawal can literally be fatal[0]. (By contrast, while heroin withdrawal can cause dehydration and other problems, as long as those are treated correctly, the direct effects of the withdrawal are non-fatal)[1]. [0] Benzodiazepines can also cause the same effect. [1] This does not mean that heroin detoxification is easy or should be taken lightly. Lots of things can still go wrong, and it's one of the reason why detox programs exist. But partly due to the legal status of heroin, we ascribe these to the 'danger' of heroin as a drug, all the while ignoring that alcohol detoxification shares all of these same challenges and many more.
- hash-set 10y ago
  In terms of growing the state and creating opportunities for large corporations to make billions of dollars while subjugating a population, I'd say it is overwhelmingly successful.
- wangchow 10y ago
  Like the prohibition era...
- SixSigma 10y ago
  Criminal activty is a great screen for US covert operations > This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html
- a3n 10y ago
  > How successful is the drug war? ... It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement. As a jobs program it's probably pretty good. Law enforcement jobs. Prison jobs. Court jobs. Political prizes to argue over and differentiate yourself from the other guy. As a control program it's fantastic. Look at all the traffic stops, civil asset forfeiture and surveillance they get away with.
joering2 10y ago
> The Drug War seems so out of control and Orwellian at this point A friend of mine, a MBA/PHD fellow who happened to give lectures on one of the most prestige US University, as well as working for very prestige Hedge Fund in NYC, is a great example of this. In 2007 we was pulled over for a missing stop light. The car was his grandmother and he wasn't aware. As the cop approached him from the right side to look into his glove compartment while he was reaching for registration, the cop noticed a pill on the floor. It happened to be some sort of para-morphine tightly controlled drug that his grandmother used for a pain from her cancer. No amount of explanation was enough for this cop. Even when his grandma showed up at the police station with bottle of same drug to explain. Shortly after his life got ruined very quickly. Of course both University and his job found out and he was removed from his duties due to "very strict no drug policies". No amount of explanation was enough. He tried to get another job and over 3 years went from looking jobs at Universities to trying for McDonald waiter, but even they did not want to hire "a druggie". As he had some savings, it wasn't the worst part. But as he got 6 years parole, being mandatory forced to go to some sort of AA meetings where for 45 minutes a week he had to listen stories of people who couldn't hold a cigarette cause that's how much they got their hands stung by needless, was worst of all nightmares. He even got approached by few drug dealers who happen to often visit those premises to try to recruit new members, and was somewhat glad he had some savings set aside, otherwise he might have gone and really start dealing! Also he couldn't move out of State until the end of his parole (it would be considered violation) and had to check once a week to the local police station and bring updated drug test, even though he had to pay for those tests from his own pocket. If you think you just come to overcrowded NYC police station and drop a piece of paper at some drop box, then you wrong. Those "visits" usually took about 3-6 hours, depending on how busy they were. Sitting in the line in such a place every week for so long has to be nightmare on its own... Not to end this tragic story too sad, eventually once his parole ended he moved to his uncle to Alaska and find some peace working on a fish farm. But his drug record will remain in the system for at least next 15 years. So boys and girls don't "do" drugs....
- voxic11 10y ago
  My nightmare whenever I drive someone else's car, especially if I know they use drugs (even prescription).
pizza 10y ago
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

knz 10y ago

> Now that we have built the infrastructure How successful is the drug war? The recent headlines related to heroin seem to imply that it's been a failure. Before that there was a meth crisis and before that there was likely something else. Is enforcement actually reducing the negative social impacts of substance abuse? It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement.

llamataboot 10y ago
It is very successful in incarcerating a ton of people and providing lots of money for people involved in it. It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse.
- rhizome 10y ago
  It's a national make-work program that builds broken lives.
  - sfrailsdev 10y ago
    Hey don't forget super cheap labor in the form of prisoners
    - a3n 10y ago
      Coincidentally, there's a measure on the Colorado ballot this year (I voted for it), that removes a state constitutional exception to allow slavery for punishment of convicted criminals. Slavery, in the Colorado and many other state constitutions, is explicitly forbidden. Colorado, at least, allows an exception for convicted criminals. I can't believe it's 2016 and I find myself having to say "yup, slavery is bad, let's not do that."
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Convicts have most of their rights abrogated. Its essentially slavery however you label it? Just like killing folks for high crimes is not 'murder', imprisoning folks and making them work for their keep is not 'slavery'.
        rhizome 10y ago
        Killing people for high crimes is not murder, but it is listed as homicide on their death certificate. I'm not sure of the distinction you're making, but you may be confused about categories of slavery, of which chattel slavery (what the US had until 1865) is only one. You may be thinking of indentured servitude, but even that doesn't map precisely to prison labor.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, it is slavery, which is why in order to not prohibit it, the 13th Amendment include an express exception for criminal punishment when otherwise abolishing slavery.
        a3n 10y ago
        Here's 100 jobs in this building. It's 100 jobs that have to be done, that people will pay for the result. They aren't great jobs, say maybe $13/hour, but they're jobs. Except no, we're not going to let 100 people have those $13/hour jobs. Instead, we're going to have 100 prisoners do those jobs for free, or next to nothing. Sorry prisoner slaves. Sorry free citizens. EDIT: And oh, we also have to pay guards to watch them do those jobs. So not free labor, not really.
- dgudkov 10y ago
  It's hard to protect individuals from something that they're actively looking for. How can you fight drugs if there are so many people willing to buy them?
  - xtian 10y ago
    Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities. If what you find extends beyond mere curiosity, then address those things.
    - beambot 10y ago
      Lots of things alter your subjective reality: reading (books, news, Reddit), watching TV and movies, imagination, travel, drugs, art, music, meditation, diversity, etc. The reasons for why people seek them out are just as varied. Not sure why chemical substances used moderately and responsibly get a bad rap...
      - dpc59 10y ago
        Because people who don't use substances only see the people who don't use them responsibly as "substance users". They can't tell for all the other people, so to them drug abuse is inherent to drug use.
      - pizza 10y ago
        Probably related to the 'sacrifice' of the basically-exiled users who had nowhere to get external help for moderating use.
      - xtian 10y ago
        Right and so if the reasons are benign then there's nothing to be done. Sorry if that was unclear.
    - jamestnz 10y ago
      > Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities Some years ago I read an interesting book on this, called The Pursuit of Oblivion[1]. In addition to providing a fascinating look at historical drug use across different cultures, the book also makes the general argument that the human drive to alter one's consciousness is as natural and inherent as the drives for food, sex, etc. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narcotics/dp/0393325458 https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narco...
- ythl 10y ago
  > It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse. I wouldn't say that. For generally law-abiding citizens like me, the lack of availability has done wonders to protect me from drugs. At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. Making all drugs legal and accessible will definitely have a negative impact on one portion of the population (curious people like me). A certain percentage of curious but otherwise law-abiding people will destroy their lives once drugs are legalized.
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. There are a lot of assumptions in there - the biggest one is that, in a legal market, drugs which are currently illegal today would still be more dangerous than drugs which already are legal. That's a big assumption, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. For example, the success of diacetylmorphine maintenance strongly suggests that it is just as possible to be a regular user of heroin as it is to be a person who drinks regularly in the evenings but otherwise lives a 'normal' life. On that note, we dramatically overestimate the danger of drugs like cocaine and dramatically underestimate the danger of drugs like alcohol and caffeine. Alcohol, incidentally, is one of the only drugs for which the withdrawal can literally be fatal[0]. (By contrast, while heroin withdrawal can cause dehydration and other problems, as long as those are treated correctly, the direct effects of the withdrawal are non-fatal)[1]. [0] Benzodiazepines can also cause the same effect. [1] This does not mean that heroin detoxification is easy or should be taken lightly. Lots of things can still go wrong, and it's one of the reason why detox programs exist. But partly due to the legal status of heroin, we ascribe these to the 'danger' of heroin as a drug, all the while ignoring that alcohol detoxification shares all of these same challenges and many more.
hash-set 10y ago
In terms of growing the state and creating opportunities for large corporations to make billions of dollars while subjugating a population, I'd say it is overwhelmingly successful.
wangchow 10y ago
Like the prohibition era...
SixSigma 10y ago
Criminal activty is a great screen for US covert operations > This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html
a3n 10y ago
> How successful is the drug war? ... It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement. As a jobs program it's probably pretty good. Law enforcement jobs. Prison jobs. Court jobs. Political prizes to argue over and differentiate yourself from the other guy. As a control program it's fantastic. Look at all the traffic stops, civil asset forfeiture and surveillance they get away with.

joering2 10y ago

> The Drug War seems so out of control and Orwellian at this point A friend of mine, a MBA/PHD fellow who happened to give lectures on one of the most prestige US University, as well as working for very prestige Hedge Fund in NYC, is a great example of this. In 2007 we was pulled over for a missing stop light. The car was his grandmother and he wasn't aware. As the cop approached him from the right side to look into his glove compartment while he was reaching for registration, the cop noticed a pill on the floor. It happened to be some sort of para-morphine tightly controlled drug that his grandmother used for a pain from her cancer. No amount of explanation was enough for this cop. Even when his grandma showed up at the police station with bottle of same drug to explain. Shortly after his life got ruined very quickly. Of course both University and his job found out and he was removed from his duties due to "very strict no drug policies". No amount of explanation was enough. He tried to get another job and over 3 years went from looking jobs at Universities to trying for McDonald waiter, but even they did not want to hire "a druggie". As he had some savings, it wasn't the worst part. But as he got 6 years parole, being mandatory forced to go to some sort of AA meetings where for 45 minutes a week he had to listen stories of people who couldn't hold a cigarette cause that's how much they got their hands stung by needless, was worst of all nightmares. He even got approached by few drug dealers who happen to often visit those premises to try to recruit new members, and was somewhat glad he had some savings set aside, otherwise he might have gone and really start dealing! Also he couldn't move out of State until the end of his parole (it would be considered violation) and had to check once a week to the local police station and bring updated drug test, even though he had to pay for those tests from his own pocket. If you think you just come to overcrowded NYC police station and drop a piece of paper at some drop box, then you wrong. Those "visits" usually took about 3-6 hours, depending on how busy they were. Sitting in the line in such a place every week for so long has to be nightmare on its own... Not to end this tragic story too sad, eventually once his parole ended he moved to his uncle to Alaska and find some peace working on a fish farm. But his drug record will remain in the system for at least next 15 years. So boys and girls don't "do" drugs....

voxic11 10y ago
My nightmare whenever I drive someone else's car, especially if I know they use drugs (even prescription).

pizza 10y ago

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/