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> there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual...idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work In
by tuxracer 10y ago
> there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual...idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work
In idealized circumstances free of economic pressures many of us would spent all day at the beach. It's great many found their dream career and are getting paid to do what they love. But for most what work is just work, a means to an end. Not sure why sex workers should be especially singled out and stigmatized. Would the janitor who cleaned the toilets in your office be doing that if they weren't getting paid to? Would you even be in said office if you weren't getting paid to be there?
- empthought 10y agoNo one should feel shame at having a toilet at the office and needing to pay someone to help clean it. Everyone should feel shame at coercing a person who would otherwise not have sex with them into having sex with them. Buying someone's labor is different than buying their bodily autonomy and consent to sex.
- anon12345690 10y agoYou have a strange definition of "coercing" This isnt rape, it's just paying for an exchange. If a person doesn't want to use their body, they're free not to. Manual labor also involves using your body with wear and tear, it's not that different or special.
- empthought 10y agoIf that's the fiction you need to tell yourself to avoid feeling shame at condoning the use of prostitutes, I guess I can't really stop you.
- imtringued 10y agoThe sex workers don't care about your morals. They have different morals than you and care about different things. Stop telling them and other people what morals they should have. Regulated prostitution may be bad in your eyes but unregulated prostitution is even worse for those who are already in this industry. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
- empthought 10y agoWe have a perfectly good approach already; it's called the Nordic model. Arrest johns, not prostitutes. And there are thousands of former sex workers that will give you an earful about what you think you know about prostitution and what prostitutes think.
- Quarrelsome 10y agoEvery model has trade-offs, the trade-off of the Nordic model is that clients are less willing to disclose information which makes it more difficult for sex workers to weed out violent troublemakers. Implementing the Nordic model would in some cases undo some recent advances in identifying and blocking these ugly clients and result in some workers being violently abused or even possibly killed. Don't go thinking there is a silver bullet here, all solutions somewhat suck.
- empthought 10y ago> Implementing the Nordic model would in some cases undo some recent advances in identifying and blocking these ugly clients and result in some workers being violently abused or even possibly killed. Sorry to break the news to you: all clients are ugly clients, since they're all just fine with the idea that people's bodies are something to be bought and sold.
- vertex-four 10y agoSo's all of capitalism - what is employment but the buying of somebody's body and mind? But I don't see people like you arguing towards the end of that, or the reduction of the circumstances which cause people to perform sex work - only reducing people's options within the framework we've already forced them to live in. I know people who have chosen sex work over a minimum wage job at McDonald's - apparently they think the sex work is less degrading, and it's much better paying. Also, I assume you don't actually mean bodies, as that would imply you're similarly against non-sexual modelling, acting, etc etc, where people employ people directly for their bodies, to varying degrees.
- anon12345690 10y agoI could say the same about your definition and motivation to "help" sex workers who don't need it or want it.
- steve_b 10y agoCoercion requires threats or force. Do you think all prostitution involves threats or force? And wouldn't autonomy include the freedom to do with your body as you see fit?
- empthought 10y agoThe threat of loss of home, food, or family due to insufficient means is indeed coercive. If it were about freedom, you would see people of all economic conditions choosing to prostitute themselves. But you don't.
- throwanem 10y agoDon't you? The past few years have seen a spate of "high-class call girl" memoirs. Unless you want to make the novel claim they're all fabricated, or try somehow to argue they are negligible, that would seem to suggest that your second claim here is not accurate.
- empthought 10y agohttp://www.salon.com/2015/09/19/my_lessons_in_prostitution_how_i_learned_the_myth_of_the_high_class_hooker/ http://www.salon.com/2015/09/19/my_lessons_in_prostitution_h... "People who see prostitution as something which exists on a number of different, exclusive and distinct class-related levels are people who do not understand the interrelated nature of it, and some of the people ignorant of the shifting nature of prostitution are actually prostitutes and prostitutors themselves."
- pkinsky 10y ago>some of the people ignorant of the shifting nature of prostitution are actually prostitutes and prostitutors themselves Sounds awful paternalistic. Have you considered the possibility that people who make choices you disagree with have agency?
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- tuxracer 10y agoSure, it's shameful to force someone to do something without their consent. Your interpretation of consent seems very bizarre however. Inherently anyone paying anyone else to do anything means they wouldn't have done it without getting paid. Does that mean they didn't consent?
- empthought 10y agoNo, it's shameful to coerce someone into having sex without their consent, not merely to coerce someone to "do something." The rest of your question is not relevant.
- Dylan16807 10y agoSo it's not shameful to force someone to perform manual labor without their consent? Why not?
- empthought 10y agoSometimes it is, sometimes it is not. (Community service is an alternative to jail, for example.) Coerced sex is rape, however. It is qualitatively different from coerced labor. As Dworkin wrote a long time ago, "in prostitution, no woman stays whole. It is impossible to use a human body in the way women's bodies are used in prostitution and to have a whole human being at the end of it, or in the middle of it, or close to the beginning of it. It's impossible. And no woman gets whole again later, after."
- barrkel 10y agoIt's condescending to women to tell them that what they choose to do with their bodies is not their free choice. It's deeply patronising and actually an anti female argument. I think the actual moral problem with commercial sex is that it commodifies something that some people see as sacred. I think it turns on one's view of government as moral guardian vs individual liberty. Governments aren't usually very good moral actors, which is why we usually limit their moral policing.
- suneilp 10y agoThis sounds more like a moral judgement. Labor is labor, you don't get to redefine labor just because it involves an action which is very controversial. What really matters is the safety of the person(s) involved. And yet, there are plenty of occupations where safety is in question.
- empthought 10y agoIt is precisely a moral judgement. Moral judgements are a human responsibility. The question is whether or not we want to be a society that views people's bodies and sexual access to them as a commodity to be bought and sold. I find it baffling that anyone would laud this condition after giving it a few moments of compassionate reflection.
- cwillu 10y agoConsider the possibility that a few moments of compassionate reflection have lead Alice to conclude that when Bob says he loves what he does, it's not because Mallory is forcing him to say that. It's all well and good to say that it's against your own morals, but as soon as you start defending that on the basis of the consequences, you're conceding the "but it's just morally wrong!" argument. And in general, we (okay, at least I, as I can believe that you wouldn't necessarily agree here) laud societies that have transitioned from deontological to consequentialist ethics.
- empthought 10y agoSo one happy prostitute is worth a thousand unhappy prostitutes, gotcha.
- cwillu 10y ago[Sorry, ninja edited underneath you.] And all the more if it's a billion prostitutes in an eternity of misery supported by a malevolent AI! Alternatively, Alice could consider the possibility that Bob is not, in fact, an idiot.
- dorfsmay 10y agoWhat about the porn industry? Actors being paid to have sex. Should that be legal? What about marriage between a very rich and a very poor person, or between a citizen and a non-citizen? What about being paid for doing drug trials? Isn't that coercion of poor people? Should this be legal?
- empthought 10y agoPornography is a form of prostitution and its consumers should also do a little introspection about their use of it. Marriages usually involve many other things than sex-for-resources; it is certainly possible for economic coercion to be an aspect of marriage. It is not the defining feature of the institution, however. Drug trials are not a more socially tolerated form of rape so they are not really relevant here.
- dorfsmay 10y agoSo should pornography be illegal in your opinion? How are drug trial not a form of "rape"? They are not sexual, but you are exposing your body to potential damage in exchange for money. I really don't see how that's different than prostitution, in fact I'll argue that it is worse (we can make prostition less risky, we cannot eliminate risk from drug trial). Some people absolutely have been getting married to be able to get out of poverty, and in my book this is worse than prostitution in the sense that not only do those people have to have sex with their " client", but they also have to live with them and probably do other work such has cleaning and cooking. At least with prostitution, the contract is clearer, there are negotiated limits on what is provided for the money. I'll argue that if society had less hangups about prostitution, they'd be less of those economical marriages. If you think that drug trial for money is more acceptable than sex for money, I think you should have a little introspection about your attitude towards sex.
- empthought 10y ago> So should pornography be illegal in your opinion? I think that very much like dangerous drugs and cigarette smoking, attacking the demand side of this issue will be more effective than outright prohibition. > How are drug trial not a form of "rape"? They are not sexual... ... that's how they're not a form of "rape," then. > Some people absolutely have been getting married to be able to get out of poverty, and in my book this is worse than prostitution in the sense that not only do those people have to have sex with their " client", but they also have to live with them and probably do other work such has cleaning and cooking. Yes, that's a terrible situation as well, but it has nothing to do with how reprehensible it is to purchase sex from a prostitute. > At least with prostitution, the contract is clearer, there are negotiated limits on what is provided for the money. I'll argue that if society had less hangups about prostitution, they'd be less of those economical marriages. I'd argue that if a person--OK, let's call a spade a spade, a man--didn't think that their own personal and sexual gratification was more important than someone else's--OK, another spade a spade, a woman's--bodily autonomy, then there'd be both less prostitution and fewer of those marriages. And less rape, and less domestic violence, and less misery overall. But this involves convincing men to introspect about their own privilege vis-a-vis personal and sexual gratification, so it won't happen. > If you think that drug trial for money is more acceptable than sex for money, I think you should have a little introspection about your attitude towards sex. The danger to people participating in drug trials is far, far less than the danger to people participating in prostitution. One merely needs to look at the comparative mortality rates to ascertain that.
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- Chris2048 10y agoAnyone can be a janitor, it is a lot harder to be a male prostitute (at scale).