12 ms·

There's idealism on both sides of the argument. On one hand, there are those who believe that conducting these arrangements in the open is safer for all involv

by niftich 10y ago

There's idealism on both sides of the argument. On one hand, there are those who believe that conducting these arrangements in the open is safer for all involved parties. On the other hand, there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual, because even if consent is given, a sex worker may have felt pressured to seek this life because all other choices available to them to make a living and attain food and shelter were sub-par or nonexistent. This argument supposes that given a different, idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work. I find this argument very similar to the idea of age of consent, in which society declares that people below a certain age are incapable of informed consent, and similarly, the widespread societal taboo against suicide, which implicitly suggests that no rational person free of undue pressures would consent to ending their own life, therefore anyone who commits suicide was pushed to do so by serious factors that impaired their ability to properly consent. Finally, there are those who just want to be 'tough on crime', and actions like this fit the bill at first blush, while letting it operate would be construed by the same population as inaction.

tuxracer 10y ago
> there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual...idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work In idealized circumstances free of economic pressures many of us would spent all day at the beach. It's great many found their dream career and are getting paid to do what they love. But for most what work is just work, a means to an end. Not sure why sex workers should be especially singled out and stigmatized. Would the janitor who cleaned the toilets in your office be doing that if they weren't getting paid to? Would you even be in said office if you weren't getting paid to be there?
- empthought 10y ago
  No one should feel shame at having a toilet at the office and needing to pay someone to help clean it. Everyone should feel shame at coercing a person who would otherwise not have sex with them into having sex with them. Buying someone's labor is different than buying their bodily autonomy and consent to sex.
  - anon12345690 10y ago
    You have a strange definition of "coercing" This isnt rape, it's just paying for an exchange. If a person doesn't want to use their body, they're free not to. Manual labor also involves using your body with wear and tear, it's not that different or special.
    - empthought 10y ago
      If that's the fiction you need to tell yourself to avoid feeling shame at condoning the use of prostitutes, I guess I can't really stop you.
      - imtringued 10y ago
        The sex workers don't care about your morals. They have different morals than you and care about different things. Stop telling them and other people what morals they should have. Regulated prostitution may be bad in your eyes but unregulated prostitution is even worse for those who are already in this industry. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
        empthought 10y ago
        We have a perfectly good approach already; it's called the Nordic model. Arrest johns, not prostitutes. And there are thousands of former sex workers that will give you an earful about what you think you know about prostitution and what prostitutes think.
        Quarrelsome 10y ago
        Every model has trade-offs, the trade-off of the Nordic model is that clients are less willing to disclose information which makes it more difficult for sex workers to weed out violent troublemakers. Implementing the Nordic model would in some cases undo some recent advances in identifying and blocking these ugly clients and result in some workers being violently abused or even possibly killed. Don't go thinking there is a silver bullet here, all solutions somewhat suck.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Anyone can be a janitor, it is a lot harder to be a male prostitute (at scale).
2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
> On the other hand, there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual Discussion about sex work is always interesting. Sex workers are so often left out of the discussion about their own lives. How about we listen to what the sex workers want? Here in Australia, sex workers are completely on the side of decriminalisation.
- xixi77 10y ago
  This is of course entirely by design -- liberal opponents of sex work have to rely on automatically, by definition denying agency to any sex worker who disagrees ("she is brainwashed/has internalized oppression/..., therefore her arguments cannot be considered, let us see what this ex-worker has to say") -- otherwise the illusion of compassion that they work so hard on creating would instantly evaporate. It is really quite infuriating -- to me personally much more so than the conservative opponents position, which while equally repugnant in terms of actions implied, at least leaves some scope for respectfully disagreeing: it does not bother me to be called sinful, or evil, or immoral by someone else's moral code (surely all of us are quite immoral by /someone's/ moral code), but I would consider it deeply offensive to have my opinion about my own life dismissed out of hand.
psyc 10y ago
By that logic, me going to work is slavery. Also, there are people who sincerely believe that women can't consent to sex with men, full stop, for basically similar reasons to what you wrote. You're probably playing devil's advocate, but I really think these bizarre ideas about consent are rooted in a damaged psychology that has a very unhealthy view of both women's agency, and the relationship between the sexes.
Anderkent 10y ago
> On the other hand, there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual, because even if consent is given, a sex worker may have felt pressured to seek this life because all other choices available to them to make a living and attain food and shelter were sub-par or nonexistent. This argument supposes that given a different, idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work. Oh no, those poor people, the best option they have is sex work! I know, let's make their best option illegal! That will certainly improve their lives! /s

by niftich 10y ago

tuxracer 10y ago

> there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual...idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work In idealized circumstances free of economic pressures many of us would spent all day at the beach. It's great many found their dream career and are getting paid to do what they love. But for most what work is just work, a means to an end. Not sure why sex workers should be especially singled out and stigmatized. Would the janitor who cleaned the toilets in your office be doing that if they weren't getting paid to? Would you even be in said office if you weren't getting paid to be there?

empthought 10y ago
No one should feel shame at having a toilet at the office and needing to pay someone to help clean it. Everyone should feel shame at coercing a person who would otherwise not have sex with them into having sex with them. Buying someone's labor is different than buying their bodily autonomy and consent to sex.
- anon12345690 10y ago
  You have a strange definition of "coercing" This isnt rape, it's just paying for an exchange. If a person doesn't want to use their body, they're free not to. Manual labor also involves using your body with wear and tear, it's not that different or special.
  - empthought 10y ago
    If that's the fiction you need to tell yourself to avoid feeling shame at condoning the use of prostitutes, I guess I can't really stop you.
    - imtringued 10y ago
      The sex workers don't care about your morals. They have different morals than you and care about different things. Stop telling them and other people what morals they should have. Regulated prostitution may be bad in your eyes but unregulated prostitution is even worse for those who are already in this industry. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
      - empthought 10y ago
        We have a perfectly good approach already; it's called the Nordic model. Arrest johns, not prostitutes. And there are thousands of former sex workers that will give you an earful about what you think you know about prostitution and what prostitutes think.
        Quarrelsome 10y ago
        Every model has trade-offs, the trade-off of the Nordic model is that clients are less willing to disclose information which makes it more difficult for sex workers to weed out violent troublemakers. Implementing the Nordic model would in some cases undo some recent advances in identifying and blocking these ugly clients and result in some workers being violently abused or even possibly killed. Don't go thinking there is a silver bullet here, all solutions somewhat suck.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Chris2048 10y ago
Anyone can be a janitor, it is a lot harder to be a male prostitute (at scale).

2muchcoffeeman 10y ago

> On the other hand, there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual Discussion about sex work is always interesting. Sex workers are so often left out of the discussion about their own lives. How about we listen to what the sex workers want? Here in Australia, sex workers are completely on the side of decriminalisation.

xixi77 10y ago
This is of course entirely by design -- liberal opponents of sex work have to rely on automatically, by definition denying agency to any sex worker who disagrees ("she is brainwashed/has internalized oppression/..., therefore her arguments cannot be considered, let us see what this ex-worker has to say") -- otherwise the illusion of compassion that they work so hard on creating would instantly evaporate. It is really quite infuriating -- to me personally much more so than the conservative opponents position, which while equally repugnant in terms of actions implied, at least leaves some scope for respectfully disagreeing: it does not bother me to be called sinful, or evil, or immoral by someone else's moral code (surely all of us are quite immoral by /someone's/ moral code), but I would consider it deeply offensive to have my opinion about my own life dismissed out of hand.

psyc 10y ago

By that logic, me going to work is slavery. Also, there are people who sincerely believe that women can't consent to sex with men, full stop, for basically similar reasons to what you wrote. You're probably playing devil's advocate, but I really think these bizarre ideas about consent are rooted in a damaged psychology that has a very unhealthy view of both women's agency, and the relationship between the sexes.

Anderkent 10y ago

> On the other hand, there are those who believe that sex work can never truly be consensual, because even if consent is given, a sex worker may have felt pressured to seek this life because all other choices available to them to make a living and attain food and shelter were sub-par or nonexistent. This argument supposes that given a different, idealized circumstances free of such pressures, few people would choose sex work. Oh no, those poor people, the best option they have is sex work! I know, let's make their best option illegal! That will certainly improve their lives! /s