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Google Now has done the same for me, told me how long it will take to get to a bar I frequent. My reaction was quite exactly "Oh that's neat, thanks!" and I wen

Google Now has done the same for me, told me how long it will take to get to a bar I frequent. My reaction was quite exactly "Oh that's neat, thanks!" and I went and had a great burger that night. Totally OK for me Google. I respect that people have different privacy thresholds, but I think the fact that it's different for everyone is being lost in articles like this.

Spooky23 10y ago
"Hi Ubercore, Google and your health insurance company here. We are worried that you are frequenting a facility that serves too much alcohol and wings. We care."
- RodericDay 10y ago
  I really wish this was up top. I can't believe that the top rated comment on HN is a thinly veiled "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about".
bbctol 10y ago
What I want mainly from Google is more and easier ways to customize my level of privacy. The article touches on the EFF's stance against incognito modes briefly, but it's an important one; I don't want lack of monitoring to be something I start a separate session for, with a logo of a creepy dude implying I should use this only for spying and pornography. I'd like to get as close as possible to an assistant that remembers relevant data on where I go and how long it takes, but ignores my browsing history to psychologically manipulate me into buying things--of course, that needs a different revenue model.
- ubercore 10y ago
  Does https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols?pli=1 https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols?pli=1 do what you're asking for? It's fairly fine-grained.
  - darklajid 10y ago
    I love that this uses 'pause' vs 'stop', 'off', 'disable' 'deactivate'. Your location history tracking is paused..
    - quickben 10y ago
      There is a difference between 'the user requested to deactivate the service', and 'the user paused the service', he may or may not wish to continue using it, gray area right? It can probably save them from a legal mess if they 'resume' it in future updates.
  - bbctol 10y ago
    As was mentioned below, in Google's case I'm particularly looking for ease of use and a UI that lets me turn things on and off quickly and intuitively. That might sound odd, as if I care deeply enough about my privacy to complain about it, but not enough to quickly switch the settings on my Google account, but I do think it matters. The more specific work I need to go through to set up my privacy, the less inclined I am to do it. If I didn't think I was able to be manipulated psychologically in this way, well, I wouldn't worry about advertising at all! If I were to ever do something politically dissident/personally embarrassing on the internet (not that I ever have of course) I'd go to the trouble of ensuring encryption and being hard to track, but I think it's important that I'm able to say to Google "Hey, I'm cool with you telling me when I should check off work to hit the bar, but it's super weird that you know what I should get my Mom for Mother's Day." Of course, the simplest way of making a system that's both fine-grained and intuitive might involve... more AI, so I'm not sure how to crack that issue.
    - dmoy 10y ago
      Did you check that link? It looks fairly intuitive to me. Given that I'm having a hard time parsing your response. However if there's some specific setting in there that's not available, that would make sense.
      - bbctol 10y ago
- mrgreenfur 10y ago
  I think eventually they add so many capabilities and so many fine-grained controls and it becomes impossible to manage the UI or to find the right options. Even looking at the settings for Android privacy / settings, it's pretty hard to find anything. This is by design, so that the majority of users are confused and leave the defaults as is, enabling Google to do whatever they like.
- VOYD 10y ago
  You shouldn't have to spend that much time managing your privacy.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- josho 10y ago
  > logo of a creepy dude implying I should use this only for spying I never thought of that before. But, what a subtle way for Google to dissuade people from using a tool that could impact their revenue.
mojuba 10y ago
One tiny caveat being that, Google (and others as well, to be fair) will be able to indirectly collect data even on the privacy-aware part of the population who don't use Google much. The simplest example being, even if you don't use GMail, still some part of your emails inevitably end up in GMail inboxes. Now also consider this: just being a guest in a Google-stuffed house means you are under surveillance. So no, it is not just my problem or your problem, it's everyone's.
- ubercore 10y ago
  Sure, and to illustrate your point, I have an email very similar to someone else's. I very frequently get their emails (invoices, church events, travel itineraries, purchase receipts). Google thinks they're _my_ trips, and updates me about flight times. I think this example serves both our points. To your point, it's totally leaked this other person's info into my "google world" because I'm on gmail. On the other hand, that person is leaking his information directly to me just because of typos when he fills out online forms. Perfect privacy requires a lot of vigilance in a digital world, with or without google/gmail/hotmail/yahoo/etc.
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    I have a fairly uncommon name and predominately use Gmail. Still, I receive a surprising amount of other people's mail in error. Apparently lots of people guess at email addys. I do often wonder at both the lack of privacy this engenders and what the Goog machine must make of it all.
    - blawson 10y ago
      I definitely worry about my life being affected by situations like this. I receive a ridiculous amount of other people's email - for serious things like email account reset, to banking info. When the Ashley Madison hack happened, my email address was there multiple times! Imagine if my then-partner had bothered to look, what a mess that would be.
      - 10y ago
Eupolemos 10y ago
I fear you will be unable to recognize when that burger was your choice and when it was a reaction. You probably won't notice. And that is harmless. I also fear you will be unable to notice in which areas of life and information the distinction between choice and reaction is harmless and which it isn't. Of course, I'm not talking about "You" you, but just people. Me as well. I feel we are widening the field of unconscious decisions and I see that as inherently bad - in my fellow humans as well. You could say that Plato wanted us to make easy things simple (link for distinction: https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy). I believe this to be a move in the opposite direction. We should have a care.
- empath75 10y ago
  I think for quite a large number of people, allowing AIs to make decisions for them will probably be better for them.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    Imagine some day your doctor advises to cut back on burgers and alcohol. Is Google going to incorporate that advice in its bar recommendations?
    - aqzman 10y ago
      Is it Google's responsibility to? I would say no. If algorithms detect that an individual is going to a bar every Monday and Thursday night, and then starts providing information about said bar on Monday and Thursday nights I don't see the problem. But I think it would be a problem if every Monday and Thursday night Google Now started providing information about AA meetings in the area, instead of bar information. It's up to the user to make the choice, Google Now just detects trends and then displays information based on those trends. I go to the gym every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday morning. And each of those mornings Google Now tells me how many minutes it will take me to get to the gym from my current location. Should Google Now start giving me directions to the nearest breakfast place instead? No, not unless that starts becoming my pattern.
ozgung 10y ago
It may be OK for you but there are at least three real concerns here: 1- There is no way to set your privacy level. 2- Things that Google/Siri/Alexa know about you are not limited with the name of the bar you go frequently. They know much more about you. And you don't know what they know. The sky is the limit here. 3- Things that they know are not limited with you personally. They know about you, your family, your friends and all their interactions. They know very much about the whole society.
- ubercore 10y ago
  1 - Sure there is, Google has fairly fine-grained tracking control. Not perfect, but as another commenter noted, this is a double-edged sword, as _too many_ controls can conversely hinder user control (see Facebook's privacy revamp) 2 - My point is that I personally am OK with Google's AI knowing more about me. I respect that others aren't. I'm not naive in my acceptance. 3 - I don't really have a response here.
  - danieldk 10y ago
    Sure there is, Google has fairly fine-grained tracking control. The privacy control where I disable location tracking and half a year later when I look in Google Dashboard I see months of travel history? I respect that others aren't. I'm not naive in my acceptance. So what do you do in a situation where your use of Google's data collection also affects people who do mind it? I would not be comfortable visiting a friend with an always-listening device like Alexa or Google's equivalent. I nuked my paid Google Apps account a couple of months ago. I had enough of their total disrespect for privacy. E.g. conversations that I had in Google Mail (which is protected by the Google Apps agreement) were used for suggestions, etc. in Google+ (which is not covered by the Google Apps agreement and uses data for targeted advertising).
    - witty_username 10y ago
      How do you know the conversations were used for suggestions? It could have been a visit to a website.
0xmohit 10y ago
You should be glad that it doesn't remind you: "Hey, it's a been a while. Why don't you go to ... today? Traffic conditions are favorable too."
- cjcole 10y ago
  Their business model is to attract and sell your attention to other companies. Given that, and the existence of pervasive surveillance and data mining, the above is inevitable.
  - internaut 10y ago
    Or as one fellow once said on HN with regard to self driving cars and advertising as a business model: "Oh you wanted to go to the bank today? Fuck you, we're going over by the mall" doors lock shut
    - 0xmohit 10y ago
      Or maybe: "I was feeling bored, so I drove down to the mall. Look what all did I get!" And then prepares to rush the owner to the hospital.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  Personally, I wish it did have reminders like that. Offer me a coupon too, while you're at it.
problems 10y ago
This location history is really bad though. I added a test gmail account to my device a few weeks ago, but didn't remember location tracking was a per-account setting - now Google has nice big logs to hand whoever wants them and I can only delete them on a day-by-day basis (from the Android app at least). Extremely annoying. This sort of thing should not be acceptable, an honest mistake results in every place I've been being logged in such a way that anyone with access to my Google account, access to Google servers or with a subpoena can have my full location history in a matter of seconds. This needs to be a big red option every time you add an account "we're gonna log everywhere you go and hand it over to whoever we feel like, you cool with that?". It'd be different if the log and analysis were done only on my device, but doing this on Google's servers is completely unacceptable by anyone with even the weakest standards of privacy.
- bingobob 10y ago
  just having a mobile device you're being tracked in Australia now the Government now also has access to this data from the network providers the only way to be free is to not carry these devices
- frankydp 10y ago
  Find Google settings in one of these places (depending on your device): In your Settings app Settings, scroll down and tap Google. Open a separate app called Google Settings Google Settings. Tap Location and then Location History. At the bottom of the screen, tap Delete Location History. Also https://maps.google.com/locationhistory https://maps.google.com/locationhistory allows for delete all history.
  - problems 10y ago
    Yeah, that's what I remembered, but it seems they replaced "Delete Location History" with a "Manage Activities" button which opens Google Maps and shows you location history, allowing you to delete it but only one day at a time. EDIT: Okay, found it. Follow your instructions then open that "Manage Activities" -> Menu -> Settings -> Scroll down -> Delete All Location History. You _must_ do this for every account if you have multiple.
sciurus 10y ago
The sad part is that the user turned off Google Now because he didn't want google to know about the bar he visited. Google was tracking and recording his location before Google Now, he just didn't know it. It's still tracking it after he disabled Google Now.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  The only difference being that the user now believes that she isn't being tracked now. I hope that there will be a day when Google and Facebook will combine forces and work on a sequel to "The Lives of Others" [0]. [0] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/
  - type0 10y ago
    > I hope that there will be a day when Google and Facebook will combine forces and work on a sequel to "The Lives of Others" [0]. Yeah, that's a great movie.
Nursie 10y ago
When it first told me it knew hiw long my commute would take, I realised it was creepy as all hell that the people (in another country with few protections on data) providing my phone software knew enough about me to tell where I worked and when I was going there. And it annoys me that on maps, when you turn off all the spying capabilities there's no fallback to local history. You either share it with us or you get none.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  Failing to provide local history is essentially one of the dark patterns to getting you to turn on their privacy collection. Most things Google requires it for could easily be done outside the cloud, but by making things depend on the cloud, and then telling everyone you can only do it with the cloud, you convince people that they need the cloud. When in reality, they never did. GPS navigation devices with much less storage than a phone have been more than capable of what Google Maps offers for a long time. There's essentially no reason for it to do anything with the Internet except getting map updates.
  - 2bitencryption 10y ago
    And traffic. I use Google Maps every single day to get to and from work, simply because it knows how to avoid traffic. 10% of the time it saves me half an hour on my commute.
- kps 10y ago
  > ... it was creepy as all hell that the people [...] knew enough about me No people know. Software metaphorically ‘knows’, but don't anthropomorphize it (it hates that).
  - Nursie 10y ago
    But it's accessible to people, that's the issue. Not my tech, but systems far away that belong to others.
    - 10y ago
amyjess 10y ago
I remember the huge smile I got on my face the first time Google Now picked up on the fact that I went to the same bar every Wednesday evening. One Wednesday afternoon, at work, I got a notification saying "Travel time to the Lion & Crown". The first thing that ran through my head was "oh my god, I'm living in the future".
cryoshon 10y ago
hypothetically: you express radical political ideas to your friend with the expectation of your statements remaining in confidence-- but google was listening. now, your feed recommendations steer you further down the path google thinks you were already on. you are ready to attend a protest and perform civil disobedience, as google now knows based off of your interest in what it has been suggesting to you. it suggests (as facebook does now regarding making events for birthday parties etc) that you and some other people form that protest, and, because it said so, you do it. except it's a trap. the police's google feed tells them that some undesirables have planned a protest, and you're imprisoned. is this story unrealistic, or has it already occurred?
ams6110 10y ago
To me it's pretty simple. If you don't like what Google is doing, don't use their services, and don't buy their products.
- Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
  But as mentioned above, if you don't want Google to potentially track your behaviour and preferences, "don't use their services" encompasses "don't send email to anyone with a gmail address".
  - Klathmon 10y ago
    Which IMO is a valid thing. If you are sending something to someone, they are free to do what they want with it. You can't force them to treat it differently. If i'm on gmail, then you need to talk to gmail to talk to me. It's a tradeoff you'll need to make. If you want you can GPG encrypt the email, but there is nothing from stopping me (legally, morally, or otherwise) from just decrypting it and replying with the contents, or saving the decrypted message in my google drive.
    - Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
      I dunno, it's not quite that black and white. If I send someone (say) a poem I wrote, even if unsolicited, I retain the copyright and the moral rights in that poem. The recipient doesn't get carte blanche to reproduce it just because I sent it to them. So, by the same token, does Google have the rights to profile people even if they haven't consented to that? One answer, as with copyright, is to see what the law says; and it's very possible that the law says no, especially in the EU. (I've not researched it; others will doubtless know much more than I do.) Or Google could just seek to do the right thing and not profile people unless they've opted in. But my definition of the right thing may well be different to theirs.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        At least in Germany, Google definitely does not have the rights to profile people that have not opted in. The interesting part is 1. finding someone who is not using any Google service at all, and 2. finding their data in a Google database.
rch 10y ago
I met a good friend and current employer because Google Now told me about an event I might be interested in a couple of years ago. Of course it also once told me how long it would take to get to an ex's house from my current girlfriend's place. How about an 'OK, funny once' command?
- justinclift 10y ago
  As a possibly humourous thought along those lines, imagine explaining to your future child they were born because of a Google Now reminder. ;) (eugenics through large scale suggestions anyone? ;>)
  - carapace 10y ago
    Heh, uh, oh shit. This isn't funny at all. "They" (or Skynet) could totally do this and who would be the wiser?
  - woliveirajr 10y ago
    :-) do you know that getting pregnant isn't that easy and many couples track the cycles to see when their fertility is higher? There are even apps to that... It wouldn't surprise me if someday this tracking was learnt by Google
- kps 10y ago
  > How about an 'OK, funny once' command? I hope that's a Heinlein reference.
  - rch 10y ago
    yep!
sireat 10y ago
I am actually quite uncomfortable that my stock Android is making suggestions on how long it should take for me to get home or work (when I have never explicitly mentioned that it is my home or work). The problem is that I want to use Google Maps so what choice do I really have? Sure I use a dedicated gmail for my phone but that really does not help much.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  HERE is an excellent maps alternative, I'd highly recommend it.
plg 10y ago
My impression is that (in the main) younger people have lower privacy thresholds than older people. Not for everyone (of course). Just on average. My impression also is that most early adopters of this kind of technology are younger people. (again: mostly) So this brings up an interesting question about the future. As the young early adopters age, what will happen? a) their privacy thresholds will also increase and they will have a "oh holy crap" moment in the future, where as a middle-aged or older person, who has lived a now much richer and problem-laden life, they will realize that google (and/or other co's) have what they consider now, as too much personal information about them, or b) they will keep their young-ish privacy thresholds as older people, and in general, across society, people will have lower thresholds than exist nowadays. In other words the world will change. My money is on a)
- barsonme 10y ago
  Conversely, there are a fair amount of older folk who are very much okay with government surveillance and a general lack of privacy (particularly our inherent rights) because, e.g., they have "nothing to hide" My impression (in the main) is that younger and older people have different views on privacy. Older folk might be creeped out by Google knowing their schedule, but okay with the NSA or FBI or whomever reading their emails because "because terrorists" whereas younger folk are more likely to balk at the latter, but very much okay the former. Do you think my opinion is accurate? I'm curious because to some extent I completely agree with you.
  - IA21 10y ago
    Not OP but I think you're correct. Older people trust the government but the younger crowd trusts corporations.
- deburo 10y ago
  I don't think A will necessarily happen for most. We are a product of our experiences. If, as we grow up, we get comfortable using always-online technologies and never suffer any consequence from those experiences, I don't see what would motivate us to suddenly doubt these technologies. I am confident B is the most likely situation; that's how societies move forward so quickly with tech.
hughw 10y ago
I would not want Google knowing I sometimes drink too much, or that I do so and get behind the wheel of a car. Easy inferences it could make, given the time I spent at the bar, and the purchases on my credit card. That could even have consequences for the cost of my auto insurance. Edit: and health insurance.
- parsnipsumthing 10y ago
  But wouldn't that be better for us as a society to know? The outcome sounds positive here.
polotics 10y ago
My experience has been quite the opposite in terms of convenience and relevance: I commute by car and train (for some parts of the same journey) and google Now, google Maps (etc) have been totally useless there: telling me about traffice jams when I'm in the train, not telling me about train delays, etc... it now somehow thinks my home is at the train station, it tells me the last bus home is leaving soon when I've been home for hours, also Google Now's insistence on bombarding the leftmost pane on my phone with the most click-bait articles ever, often about things I had a passing interest in months ago, is just laughable. I would be glad to give Google some of my very precious privacy, implementing some countermeasures like multiple and burner identities as needed, if I thought they had any chance of actually providing real value. So far they have failed miserably, I am not sure the economics of providing a really useful service there for free just with marketing information as source of income work now, or for a very long time. You'd need strong AI to actually help my day to day life, with solid non obvious guessing based on many very local and specific factors. I guess as long as people kind of believe that this future is coming, they may tolerate the invasion and forget about the promises.
throwawaymaroon 10y ago
I only hope your insipid compliance doesn't ruin it for everyone.
e40 10y ago
but I think the fact that it's different for everyone is being lost in articles like this. I think that it is different for everyone is completely and utterly obvious. It's clear the author doesn't think it's OK, but that it's his/her opinion.
fweespeech 10y ago
Yeah, but that is also the equivalent of 24/7 surveillance of all locations you visit. Google will end up figuring out whom you sleep with, etc. from that information. Pretty much your only privacy is in your head at that point. I'm not sure that is a "threshold" of privacy but rather a "I am okay with 24/7 surveillance of all of my activity."
drvdevd 10y ago
I actually thought the most interesting point this article raised - for me at least - is the implict branding associated with the "OK Google" command. All privacy concerns aside, if I'm going to have a "personal Google" I want to be able to thoroughly personalize it.

Spooky23 10y ago

"Hi Ubercore, Google and your health insurance company here. We are worried that you are frequenting a facility that serves too much alcohol and wings. We care."

RodericDay 10y ago
I really wish this was up top. I can't believe that the top rated comment on HN is a thinly veiled "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about".

bbctol 10y ago

What I want mainly from Google is more and easier ways to customize my level of privacy. The article touches on the EFF's stance against incognito modes briefly, but it's an important one; I don't want lack of monitoring to be something I start a separate session for, with a logo of a creepy dude implying I should use this only for spying and pornography. I'd like to get as close as possible to an assistant that remembers relevant data on where I go and how long it takes, but ignores my browsing history to psychologically manipulate me into buying things--of course, that needs a different revenue model.

ubercore 10y ago
Does https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols?pli=1 https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols?pli=1 do what you're asking for? It's fairly fine-grained.
- darklajid 10y ago
  I love that this uses 'pause' vs 'stop', 'off', 'disable' 'deactivate'. Your location history tracking is paused..
  - quickben 10y ago
    There is a difference between 'the user requested to deactivate the service', and 'the user paused the service', he may or may not wish to continue using it, gray area right? It can probably save them from a legal mess if they 'resume' it in future updates.
- bbctol 10y ago
  As was mentioned below, in Google's case I'm particularly looking for ease of use and a UI that lets me turn things on and off quickly and intuitively. That might sound odd, as if I care deeply enough about my privacy to complain about it, but not enough to quickly switch the settings on my Google account, but I do think it matters. The more specific work I need to go through to set up my privacy, the less inclined I am to do it. If I didn't think I was able to be manipulated psychologically in this way, well, I wouldn't worry about advertising at all! If I were to ever do something politically dissident/personally embarrassing on the internet (not that I ever have of course) I'd go to the trouble of ensuring encryption and being hard to track, but I think it's important that I'm able to say to Google "Hey, I'm cool with you telling me when I should check off work to hit the bar, but it's super weird that you know what I should get my Mom for Mother's Day." Of course, the simplest way of making a system that's both fine-grained and intuitive might involve... more AI, so I'm not sure how to crack that issue.
  - dmoy 10y ago
    Did you check that link? It looks fairly intuitive to me. Given that I'm having a hard time parsing your response. However if there's some specific setting in there that's not available, that would make sense.
    - bbctol 10y ago
mrgreenfur 10y ago
I think eventually they add so many capabilities and so many fine-grained controls and it becomes impossible to manage the UI or to find the right options. Even looking at the settings for Android privacy / settings, it's pretty hard to find anything. This is by design, so that the majority of users are confused and leave the defaults as is, enabling Google to do whatever they like.
VOYD 10y ago
You shouldn't have to spend that much time managing your privacy.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
josho 10y ago
> logo of a creepy dude implying I should use this only for spying I never thought of that before. But, what a subtle way for Google to dissuade people from using a tool that could impact their revenue.

mojuba 10y ago

One tiny caveat being that, Google (and others as well, to be fair) will be able to indirectly collect data even on the privacy-aware part of the population who don't use Google much. The simplest example being, even if you don't use GMail, still some part of your emails inevitably end up in GMail inboxes. Now also consider this: just being a guest in a Google-stuffed house means you are under surveillance. So no, it is not just my problem or your problem, it's everyone's.

ubercore 10y ago
Sure, and to illustrate your point, I have an email very similar to someone else's. I very frequently get their emails (invoices, church events, travel itineraries, purchase receipts). Google thinks they're _my_ trips, and updates me about flight times. I think this example serves both our points. To your point, it's totally leaked this other person's info into my "google world" because I'm on gmail. On the other hand, that person is leaking his information directly to me just because of typos when he fills out online forms. Perfect privacy requires a lot of vigilance in a digital world, with or without google/gmail/hotmail/yahoo/etc.
- CapitalistCartr 10y ago
  I have a fairly uncommon name and predominately use Gmail. Still, I receive a surprising amount of other people's mail in error. Apparently lots of people guess at email addys. I do often wonder at both the lack of privacy this engenders and what the Goog machine must make of it all.
  - blawson 10y ago
    I definitely worry about my life being affected by situations like this. I receive a ridiculous amount of other people's email - for serious things like email account reset, to banking info. When the Ashley Madison hack happened, my email address was there multiple times! Imagine if my then-partner had bothered to look, what a mess that would be.
    - 10y ago

Eupolemos 10y ago

I fear you will be unable to recognize when that burger was your choice and when it was a reaction. You probably won't notice. And that is harmless. I also fear you will be unable to notice in which areas of life and information the distinction between choice and reaction is harmless and which it isn't. Of course, I'm not talking about "You" you, but just people. Me as well. I feel we are widening the field of unconscious decisions and I see that as inherently bad - in my fellow humans as well. You could say that Plato wanted us to make easy things simple (link for distinction: https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy). I believe this to be a move in the opposite direction. We should have a care.

empath75 10y ago
I think for quite a large number of people, allowing AIs to make decisions for them will probably be better for them.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  Imagine some day your doctor advises to cut back on burgers and alcohol. Is Google going to incorporate that advice in its bar recommendations?
  - aqzman 10y ago
    Is it Google's responsibility to? I would say no. If algorithms detect that an individual is going to a bar every Monday and Thursday night, and then starts providing information about said bar on Monday and Thursday nights I don't see the problem. But I think it would be a problem if every Monday and Thursday night Google Now started providing information about AA meetings in the area, instead of bar information. It's up to the user to make the choice, Google Now just detects trends and then displays information based on those trends. I go to the gym every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday morning. And each of those mornings Google Now tells me how many minutes it will take me to get to the gym from my current location. Should Google Now start giving me directions to the nearest breakfast place instead? No, not unless that starts becoming my pattern.

ozgung 10y ago

It may be OK for you but there are at least three real concerns here: 1- There is no way to set your privacy level. 2- Things that Google/Siri/Alexa know about you are not limited with the name of the bar you go frequently. They know much more about you. And you don't know what they know. The sky is the limit here. 3- Things that they know are not limited with you personally. They know about you, your family, your friends and all their interactions. They know very much about the whole society.

ubercore 10y ago
1 - Sure there is, Google has fairly fine-grained tracking control. Not perfect, but as another commenter noted, this is a double-edged sword, as _too many_ controls can conversely hinder user control (see Facebook's privacy revamp) 2 - My point is that I personally am OK with Google's AI knowing more about me. I respect that others aren't. I'm not naive in my acceptance. 3 - I don't really have a response here.
- danieldk 10y ago
  Sure there is, Google has fairly fine-grained tracking control. The privacy control where I disable location tracking and half a year later when I look in Google Dashboard I see months of travel history? I respect that others aren't. I'm not naive in my acceptance. So what do you do in a situation where your use of Google's data collection also affects people who do mind it? I would not be comfortable visiting a friend with an always-listening device like Alexa or Google's equivalent. I nuked my paid Google Apps account a couple of months ago. I had enough of their total disrespect for privacy. E.g. conversations that I had in Google Mail (which is protected by the Google Apps agreement) were used for suggestions, etc. in Google+ (which is not covered by the Google Apps agreement and uses data for targeted advertising).
  - witty_username 10y ago
    How do you know the conversations were used for suggestions? It could have been a visit to a website.

0xmohit 10y ago

You should be glad that it doesn't remind you: "Hey, it's a been a while. Why don't you go to ... today? Traffic conditions are favorable too."

cjcole 10y ago
Their business model is to attract and sell your attention to other companies. Given that, and the existence of pervasive surveillance and data mining, the above is inevitable.
- internaut 10y ago
  Or as one fellow once said on HN with regard to self driving cars and advertising as a business model: "Oh you wanted to go to the bank today? Fuck you, we're going over by the mall" doors lock shut
  - 0xmohit 10y ago
    Or maybe: "I was feeling bored, so I drove down to the mall. Look what all did I get!" And then prepares to rush the owner to the hospital.
794CD01 10y ago
Personally, I wish it did have reminders like that. Offer me a coupon too, while you're at it.

problems 10y ago

This location history is really bad though. I added a test gmail account to my device a few weeks ago, but didn't remember location tracking was a per-account setting - now Google has nice big logs to hand whoever wants them and I can only delete them on a day-by-day basis (from the Android app at least). Extremely annoying. This sort of thing should not be acceptable, an honest mistake results in every place I've been being logged in such a way that anyone with access to my Google account, access to Google servers or with a subpoena can have my full location history in a matter of seconds. This needs to be a big red option every time you add an account "we're gonna log everywhere you go and hand it over to whoever we feel like, you cool with that?". It'd be different if the log and analysis were done only on my device, but doing this on Google's servers is completely unacceptable by anyone with even the weakest standards of privacy.

bingobob 10y ago
just having a mobile device you're being tracked in Australia now the Government now also has access to this data from the network providers the only way to be free is to not carry these devices
frankydp 10y ago
Find Google settings in one of these places (depending on your device): In your Settings app Settings, scroll down and tap Google. Open a separate app called Google Settings Google Settings. Tap Location and then Location History. At the bottom of the screen, tap Delete Location History. Also https://maps.google.com/locationhistory https://maps.google.com/locationhistory allows for delete all history.
- problems 10y ago
  Yeah, that's what I remembered, but it seems they replaced "Delete Location History" with a "Manage Activities" button which opens Google Maps and shows you location history, allowing you to delete it but only one day at a time. EDIT: Okay, found it. Follow your instructions then open that "Manage Activities" -> Menu -> Settings -> Scroll down -> Delete All Location History. You _must_ do this for every account if you have multiple.

sciurus 10y ago

The sad part is that the user turned off Google Now because he didn't want google to know about the bar he visited. Google was tracking and recording his location before Google Now, he just didn't know it. It's still tracking it after he disabled Google Now.

0xmohit 10y ago
The only difference being that the user now believes that she isn't being tracked now. I hope that there will be a day when Google and Facebook will combine forces and work on a sequel to "The Lives of Others" [0]. [0] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/
- type0 10y ago
  > I hope that there will be a day when Google and Facebook will combine forces and work on a sequel to "The Lives of Others" [0]. Yeah, that's a great movie.

Nursie 10y ago

When it first told me it knew hiw long my commute would take, I realised it was creepy as all hell that the people (in another country with few protections on data) providing my phone software knew enough about me to tell where I worked and when I was going there. And it annoys me that on maps, when you turn off all the spying capabilities there's no fallback to local history. You either share it with us or you get none.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
Failing to provide local history is essentially one of the dark patterns to getting you to turn on their privacy collection. Most things Google requires it for could easily be done outside the cloud, but by making things depend on the cloud, and then telling everyone you can only do it with the cloud, you convince people that they need the cloud. When in reality, they never did. GPS navigation devices with much less storage than a phone have been more than capable of what Google Maps offers for a long time. There's essentially no reason for it to do anything with the Internet except getting map updates.
- 2bitencryption 10y ago
  And traffic. I use Google Maps every single day to get to and from work, simply because it knows how to avoid traffic. 10% of the time it saves me half an hour on my commute.
kps 10y ago
> ... it was creepy as all hell that the people [...] knew enough about me No people know. Software metaphorically ‘knows’, but don't anthropomorphize it (it hates that).
- Nursie 10y ago
  But it's accessible to people, that's the issue. Not my tech, but systems far away that belong to others.
  - 10y ago

amyjess 10y ago

I remember the huge smile I got on my face the first time Google Now picked up on the fact that I went to the same bar every Wednesday evening. One Wednesday afternoon, at work, I got a notification saying "Travel time to the Lion & Crown". The first thing that ran through my head was "oh my god, I'm living in the future".

cryoshon 10y ago

hypothetically: you express radical political ideas to your friend with the expectation of your statements remaining in confidence-- but google was listening. now, your feed recommendations steer you further down the path google thinks you were already on. you are ready to attend a protest and perform civil disobedience, as google now knows based off of your interest in what it has been suggesting to you. it suggests (as facebook does now regarding making events for birthday parties etc) that you and some other people form that protest, and, because it said so, you do it. except it's a trap. the police's google feed tells them that some undesirables have planned a protest, and you're imprisoned. is this story unrealistic, or has it already occurred?

ams6110 10y ago

To me it's pretty simple. If you don't like what Google is doing, don't use their services, and don't buy their products.

Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
But as mentioned above, if you don't want Google to potentially track your behaviour and preferences, "don't use their services" encompasses "don't send email to anyone with a gmail address".
- Klathmon 10y ago
  Which IMO is a valid thing. If you are sending something to someone, they are free to do what they want with it. You can't force them to treat it differently. If i'm on gmail, then you need to talk to gmail to talk to me. It's a tradeoff you'll need to make. If you want you can GPG encrypt the email, but there is nothing from stopping me (legally, morally, or otherwise) from just decrypting it and replying with the contents, or saving the decrypted message in my google drive.
  - Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
    I dunno, it's not quite that black and white. If I send someone (say) a poem I wrote, even if unsolicited, I retain the copyright and the moral rights in that poem. The recipient doesn't get carte blanche to reproduce it just because I sent it to them. So, by the same token, does Google have the rights to profile people even if they haven't consented to that? One answer, as with copyright, is to see what the law says; and it's very possible that the law says no, especially in the EU. (I've not researched it; others will doubtless know much more than I do.) Or Google could just seek to do the right thing and not profile people unless they've opted in. But my definition of the right thing may well be different to theirs.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      At least in Germany, Google definitely does not have the rights to profile people that have not opted in. The interesting part is 1. finding someone who is not using any Google service at all, and 2. finding their data in a Google database.

rch 10y ago

I met a good friend and current employer because Google Now told me about an event I might be interested in a couple of years ago. Of course it also once told me how long it would take to get to an ex's house from my current girlfriend's place. How about an 'OK, funny once' command?

justinclift 10y ago
As a possibly humourous thought along those lines, imagine explaining to your future child they were born because of a Google Now reminder. ;) (eugenics through large scale suggestions anyone? ;>)
- carapace 10y ago
  Heh, uh, oh shit. This isn't funny at all. "They" (or Skynet) could totally do this and who would be the wiser?
- woliveirajr 10y ago
  :-) do you know that getting pregnant isn't that easy and many couples track the cycles to see when their fertility is higher? There are even apps to that... It wouldn't surprise me if someday this tracking was learnt by Google
kps 10y ago
> How about an 'OK, funny once' command? I hope that's a Heinlein reference.
- rch 10y ago
  yep!

sireat 10y ago

I am actually quite uncomfortable that my stock Android is making suggestions on how long it should take for me to get home or work (when I have never explicitly mentioned that it is my home or work). The problem is that I want to use Google Maps so what choice do I really have? Sure I use a dedicated gmail for my phone but that really does not help much.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
HERE is an excellent maps alternative, I'd highly recommend it.

plg 10y ago

My impression is that (in the main) younger people have lower privacy thresholds than older people. Not for everyone (of course). Just on average. My impression also is that most early adopters of this kind of technology are younger people. (again: mostly) So this brings up an interesting question about the future. As the young early adopters age, what will happen? a) their privacy thresholds will also increase and they will have a "oh holy crap" moment in the future, where as a middle-aged or older person, who has lived a now much richer and problem-laden life, they will realize that google (and/or other co's) have what they consider now, as too much personal information about them, or b) they will keep their young-ish privacy thresholds as older people, and in general, across society, people will have lower thresholds than exist nowadays. In other words the world will change. My money is on a)

barsonme 10y ago
Conversely, there are a fair amount of older folk who are very much okay with government surveillance and a general lack of privacy (particularly our inherent rights) because, e.g., they have "nothing to hide" My impression (in the main) is that younger and older people have different views on privacy. Older folk might be creeped out by Google knowing their schedule, but okay with the NSA or FBI or whomever reading their emails because "because terrorists" whereas younger folk are more likely to balk at the latter, but very much okay the former. Do you think my opinion is accurate? I'm curious because to some extent I completely agree with you.
- IA21 10y ago
  Not OP but I think you're correct. Older people trust the government but the younger crowd trusts corporations.
deburo 10y ago
I don't think A will necessarily happen for most. We are a product of our experiences. If, as we grow up, we get comfortable using always-online technologies and never suffer any consequence from those experiences, I don't see what would motivate us to suddenly doubt these technologies. I am confident B is the most likely situation; that's how societies move forward so quickly with tech.

hughw 10y ago

I would not want Google knowing I sometimes drink too much, or that I do so and get behind the wheel of a car. Easy inferences it could make, given the time I spent at the bar, and the purchases on my credit card. That could even have consequences for the cost of my auto insurance. Edit: and health insurance.

parsnipsumthing 10y ago
But wouldn't that be better for us as a society to know? The outcome sounds positive here.

polotics 10y ago

My experience has been quite the opposite in terms of convenience and relevance: I commute by car and train (for some parts of the same journey) and google Now, google Maps (etc) have been totally useless there: telling me about traffice jams when I'm in the train, not telling me about train delays, etc... it now somehow thinks my home is at the train station, it tells me the last bus home is leaving soon when I've been home for hours, also Google Now's insistence on bombarding the leftmost pane on my phone with the most click-bait articles ever, often about things I had a passing interest in months ago, is just laughable. I would be glad to give Google some of my very precious privacy, implementing some countermeasures like multiple and burner identities as needed, if I thought they had any chance of actually providing real value. So far they have failed miserably, I am not sure the economics of providing a really useful service there for free just with marketing information as source of income work now, or for a very long time. You'd need strong AI to actually help my day to day life, with solid non obvious guessing based on many very local and specific factors. I guess as long as people kind of believe that this future is coming, they may tolerate the invasion and forget about the promises.

throwawaymaroon 10y ago

I only hope your insipid compliance doesn't ruin it for everyone.

e40 10y ago

but I think the fact that it's different for everyone is being lost in articles like this. I think that it is different for everyone is completely and utterly obvious. It's clear the author doesn't think it's OK, but that it's his/her opinion.

fweespeech 10y ago

Yeah, but that is also the equivalent of 24/7 surveillance of all locations you visit. Google will end up figuring out whom you sleep with, etc. from that information. Pretty much your only privacy is in your head at that point. I'm not sure that is a "threshold" of privacy but rather a "I am okay with 24/7 surveillance of all of my activity."

drvdevd 10y ago

I actually thought the most interesting point this article raised - for me at least - is the implict branding associated with the "OK Google" command. All privacy concerns aside, if I'm going to have a "personal Google" I want to be able to thoroughly personalize it.