36 ms·

Fewer foreign entrepreneurs say they need the U.S.

193 points by jackgavigan 10y ago

stevenkovar 10y ago
I would propose that fewer American entrepreneurs would say they need the U.S. as well. The world is globalizing—and I think that's a good thing.
Practicality 10y ago
Bring it on! The more in this party the merrier. If other countries want to create competing systems in similar markets, fantastic, it can only create more innovation and ideas.
an0n_guy 10y ago
What about Australia guys?... Recently I got an offer from university of Melbourne (Msc in CS), and i am deciding whether to accept or not. My main area of Interest is NLP/ML and I am interested in a professor's research, that was my main interest in the university…. However, i do not know if Australia and Melbourne will give me the opportunity of develop into the tech scene (is there a tech scene in Melbourne?)… My options are a two fold... to wait a year and apply to the USA or to the UK or to take Melbourne alternative?.
- nl 10y ago
  The Australian tech scene is ok - it isn't Silicon Valley, but nowhere is. Sydney has more action than Melbourne, but it's only a half-hour away.
contingencies 10y ago
As a serial entrepreneur, I consider China to be awesome right now. Not only is cash easier than ever to get (perfect storm of low domestic interest rates, government outbound forex controls, stock market scares, private sector domestic financial institution mismanagement and bankruptcies, and the widely recognized end of the era of easy real estate sector profits: the previous go-to for parking domestic assets), but overheads are low and the country has the world's most efficient supply-chain[0] (~2-3 days for anything, 24x7x365) for almost any electronics or components (perfect for hardware startups), a central location in Asia and a huge domestic market. On the flip side, international internet can be a drag (slow) and a stable visa situation, while achievable, affordable and essentially permanently secure (unlike most western countries), takes a few months to settle. At my current startup[1] we are currently locking down a rental agreement on an office and may use the rest of the space (significant) to re-start a local makerspace concept that failed to get enough fiscal traction last year.[2] If anyone out there is working on a hardware project and looking for a low-cost base of operations, we can give you a home. In time I would love to transition to an incubator. Previously I worked in the US (establishing the first foreign office of a London startup), for the US remotely (new SF-based startup), in the UK, China and Australia. I feel the US has a great ecosystem for investment but this is largely outweighed by hassles on visas, litigation, cost and zero life-stability for non green card holders with families. The UK is simply expensive (also with visa hassles) and other than fintech or UK university-related research spinoffs seems sub-optimal. Australia is very strong on research but overheads, lack of VC and a small and widely dispersed domestic market mean that commercialization remains a bigger hurdle than it needs to be. [0] http://taobao.com/ http://taobao.com/ [1] http://8-food.com/ http://8-food.com/ [2] http://cave.pratyeka.org/ http://cave.pratyeka.org/
- an0n_guy 10y ago
  From your experience in terms of money, entrepreneurship, lifestyle, and research... which is a safer option between Edinburgh and Melbourne?
_RPM 10y ago
So, I'm going to get down voted for this, but as a US citizen, I don't want there to be more H1B status workers granted. They are my direct competition as a new graduate. Bringing them in here drives down the cost of labor for software engineering because most of the timer those status workers don't have leverage and will accept a below market salary or wages. Yes, I know it's been stated at huge companies like Facebook that the H1B holders get paid the same, that can't possibly be true for all the companies that hire software engineers.
mc32 10y ago
It's really not a sign of a problem but rather a sign of improving local conditions in those up and coming countries. This development will lead to better local economies, locals with better local opportunities and ultimately better wealth distribution (rather than entrepreneur wealth/taxes contributing to American coffers they will contribute to local coffers improving the lives of locals). And additionally by having fewer people adopt our expensive lifestyle as they would had they migrated people will contribute less toward climate change so, win-win.
- scriptkiddy 10y ago
  I also believe that the improved economies in those nations will lead to wage increases. That will, in turn make it less profitable to outsource to those nations. In turn, that will hopefully bring more jobs back to the U.S. Sounds like a win-win really.
- vthallam 10y ago
  While you what say is true, countries compete for talent/jobs/economy. Its not like US thinks we have had enough of talent, so let China and India prosper. The point the author is making is that, the USA should compete for talent by easing rules, giving PR's to talented individuals.
mattnewton 10y ago
Haven't finished the article, but it boggles my mind how anyone would be afraid of Chinese competition because Apple copied wechat and removed the headphone jack second. The features they are talking about where available in most other messaging apps, notably Facebook messenger, ever since Line and other Korean [Edit: LINE is Japanese] apps introduced it (there may be an even earlier case, it has been around so long). Apple plays catch up from time to time, nothing new to see here. And removing the headphone jack is not innovation. Will continue reading the article, but if this is what America thinks is innovation, that's the dangerous thing, not China. Besides, I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing besides some jingoist pride? Letting Chinese companies foot the R&D bill in a few cases would certainly be cheaper. As long as we continue to attempt to compete, and don't throw our hands up because they had chat stickers before one of our American companies.
- arcanus 10y ago
  > I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing No, it would be a great thing. Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. I expect serious competition to enhance R+D, not diminish it. No CEO buys back shares or increases dividends when they have a serious competitor. They pour money into R+D, new equipment and strategic acquisitions.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    "Competition is good" may or may not be true. It depends. A rough rule of thumb is that a new idea has to be 10x better than the old idea to be worth it. The count of 10x ideas is dwindling.
  - conanbatt 10y ago
    I've had to make a similar argument in another related thread. Its like the question of "who is #1" and "whats best for you" are mingled. If china comes out strong with new products , cheaper prices, more R&D , as a consumer we will all greatly benefit!
Jimmy 10y ago
>handsets without headphone jacks long before Apple did This is not an innovation. Not every change is an innovation. In fact, this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and I intend on never buying an Apple product again.
- kctess5 10y ago
  Yeah I really don't understand this move. Looks like I'll stick with my iPhone SE until it dies and never "upgrade".
- pat2man 10y ago
  I'm predicting Android manufacturers will follow suit within 2 years.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    I'm sure some will, but the sheer variety of Android handsets means it's highly unlikely it'll disappear from all of the viable ones anytime soon if people actually want them. There are a huge number of niche, speciality phones, such as phones with extra many SIM-slots - max I've seen is five - extra large batteries, up to 10,000mAh - extra rugged - huge extra antennas - water proof - models with walkie talkie functionality, and many other special purpose models. This is the advantage of reference designs that get copied and adapted over and over cheaply, allowing tons of different companies to churn out variations cheaply. Given that, I'm sure there will be ones with wired headphone connectors for a very long time.
  - boodm 10y ago
    The problem is, the manufacturers will not be able to follow suit with thunderbolt. So... what will device makers use? The BIG problem is they will likely not even use the same "standard" across Android devices... what is a headphones manufacturer to do?
    - bduerst 10y ago
      >So... what will device makers use? USB Type-C, if they were so inclined.
mhurron 10y ago
The idea that everything must be in California to matter dying is a good thing for everyone except those in California who refuse to change. Maybe people will realize you can do most technology jobs from anywhere in the world. No one is at the top forever, that includes the US.
- bsenftner 10y ago
  It is very clear that the US is no longer the top in many areas, and is slipping fast. The USA is actively rearranging the deck chairs in what is going to be a monumental Titanic the rest of the world will enjoy watching sink. As a "leader nation" we've been deplorable in many of the aspects that matter. Few outside the USA will shed many tears, as we've been ruthless towards other nations not subservient to our corporations. Yeah, we do just enough good to pass, and not much more, and then only when it serves our corporate masters.
  - yardie 10y ago
    The US has been in decline since before I was even born, mid 30s now. Things have gotten better in other developing countries, yes. And things have gotten better here as well. The only people that truly believe the US is in decline are Trump voters, neoliberals, and survivalists.
  - dba7dba 10y ago
    You may not get all teary but let's remember why US has had to keep a such massive arsenal and expand so much energy globally. It was to counter Nazi Germany, Russia, and Japanese Empire. Before WW1 and WW2, US was indeed a 2nd tier nation but they were quite happy. And don't forget, corporate masters are everywhere, not just in US.
  - hx87 10y ago
    You can say that about every large country ever.
    - bsenftner 10y ago
kragen 10y ago
It is difficult for me to imagine the level of jingoism necessary to consider it a problem that foreign entrepreneurs don't need the US. Why would you want the entire world to be dependent on the US? That doesn't help either the US or the rest of the world.
- mtviewdave 10y ago
  I think the reason is that, at some level, Wadhwa believes that immigrants make better entrepreneurs than (native-born) Americans. He's never said that outright, but that's been a theme in his writing for a while. For example, from the article: America has lost an entire generation of entrepreneurs and innovators and bolstered its global competition. That is also why the proportion of immigrant-founded start-ups in Silicon Valley fell from 52 percent in 2005 to 44 percent in 2012 and is probably even lower today. It's possible that a lower proportion of startups are immigrant-founded because there are fewer immigrant founders, but it's also possible that there may be more native-born Americans becoming entrepreneurs. One can't tell from just this statistic. If the ratio has changed because of an increase in American entrepreneurship, then Wadhwa's argument becomes that it's bad for the U.S. if more Americans become entrepreneurs. Which is weird. And being an American myself, something I find quite offensive.
- nkassis 10y ago
  I mean it does help the US and it's citizen's to be the center of innovation and for others to depend on american economic outputs. I'm not sure that it's Jingoism for people in the US to think that losing out of our competitive advantages as a nation is a bad thing for the future of those people.
msvan 10y ago
I think this article is exaggerating. In the long run, maybe the US will lose its luster, but it is still a very desirable place to live. The US has a secret weapon for solving its growth problems: let more people in. Is there any country in the world apart from the US that chooses to refuse a long line of highly qualified people looking to come and pay taxes?
calvinbhai 10y ago
I'm really glad US has such tight immigration norms. As someone from India, it is great the see that those innovators who couldn't get visas, are innovating outside US and living a much better life. why move be an alien in US, when you can live in home country and innovate? I think the author (also an Indian turned American) has been making this point for quite a few years. Not all, but some of America's loss is China and India's gain. India and China are so vastly different markets, that most of the products made for US really dont fit outside US. And innovating in China / India truly help these countries!
- dhab 10y ago
  Can you provide some examples of product-market mismatch outside US - for types of things cities akin to Silicon Valley come up with?
  - jeyoor 10y ago
    It seems that markets such as India and China[1] are more comfortable with apps packed with numerous features (i.e. WeChat or LINE), whereas US apps seem to usually be more focused on minimalism [2]. Snapchat is a notable US counter-example. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/technology/china-mobile-tech-innovation-silicon-valley.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/technology/china-mobile-te... [2] https://blog.benroux.me/your-app-has-one-feature/ https://blog.benroux.me/your-app-has-one-feature/
    - gohrt 10y ago
      That's not really a feature that people are "comfortable with", that's because Chinese Internet has been captured by monopolists, like the AOL of USA in the 1990s.
      - cerebellum42 10y ago
        I doubt that's all there is to it, there really are some cultural differences that show when you take western services and put them on the chinese market. Amazon for example found that their site simply looked too "clean", had too much whitespace, for the chinese market. All that empty space was not taken as a clean look by users, but as a sign that there weren't a lot of products available. If I go to amazon.com now, there are literally 5 products on the landing page. On amazon.cn, more like 30-50. (I am recounting this story as it was told by an Amazon employee who came to my Uni a while back)
tn13 10y ago
That is a good thing. USA's ridiculous immigration norms is a big problem.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Really? How so?
pzh 10y ago
The author of the article, Vivek Wadhwa, is one of the most famous academic proponents of the H-1B visa. When I read the title, I initially thought the article would be about innovation and the startup climate in SV, but as I was progressing through, it confirmed my suspicions--it was another veiled opinion piece for increasing H-1B visa numbers. Maybe there is some value to his observations and arguments, but other readers should be aware what the ultimate goal is here...
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Thanks for the information! I too thought the article would be able innovation and markets. America definitely does not need more H1B workers.
  - gorkemyurt 10y ago
    Yea America needs a different visa that allows people in without a lottery.
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      H1B visas smack of indentured servitude.
- timewarrior 10y ago
  I think you guys are missing the point. I know he normally is in favor of H1 but not this article. He mentions two mains things in his post: 1. Give a path of Green Card to entrepreneurs. 2. Do not bound h1b employees to current jobs. Right now US is allowing quasi slavery by bounding workers to their jobs and making it really difficult to switch. If employers couldn't enslave h1 workers it wouldn't be economically viable for them and they are get lot less h1 workers. I have worked at startups all of my career, built the biggest social network to come out of India, built another startup, sold it to Dropbox, currently head the innovation group at a Fortune 15. All I want to do is build startups. But on H1 I can't hold majority stake in my own company, and because of my previous experience I don't want to do a startup again on h1. It will take me 20 years to get a Green Card on EB-2. I am trying for EB-1 but even with my background it will be difficult. If I don't get a Green Card by next year I will move out of US. I am also discouraging any Entrepreneurs I know in India against a move to US. I sincerely hope that the situation improves.
mbostleman 10y ago
If the US wants, it can a) start growing it's own tech people instead of being constrained by a lack of them, b) make immigration easier for tech people in the meantime, and c) stop focusing on bringing manufacturing back and focus instead on moving people's skills up the value chain so that they can innovate as opposed to stamping and assembling the innovations of others. Also, not sure that putting two cameras on a phone and removing the headphone jack is exactly innovation. Those seem more like features. The Internet and mobile devices are real innovation imo.
- paulsutter 10y ago
  What phone were you using 10 years ago (2006), and how does it compare to phones today? Bill Gates says that people overestimate what will happen in two years, and underestimate what will happen in ten years. It's easier to see that looking back.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - a3n 10y ago
    A Nokia feature phone. I liked it a lot. For you younger people ... you see, Nokia was a company that made excellent phones that almost no other company could touch, and then ...
    - tw04 10y ago
      And then Apple figured out the average American cares more about what they pay monthly for an object than they do about the total cost. So instead of "owning" a phone that you could run over with a truck, you "rented" a phone that would break if you looked at it wrong for 7x the price. Brilliant move on their part, and I wouldn't trade my google maps for anything. But I miss the hell out of my blackberry email to this day.
      - pfranz 10y ago
        > And then Apple figured out the average American cares more about what they pay monthly for an object than they do about the total cost. To be fair, that was a trend long before Apple made phones. To me, it looked like they tried to break that trend but got too much resistance from users who wouldn't pay the upfront cost.
bwb 10y ago
It isn't a problem, it is the effect of the rest of the world's economy growing up. We are getting smaller and that is a good thing globally. Instead more Americans need to be focusing outward.
- deleted 10y ago
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jkaljundi 10y ago
Compared to 2009-2011, when I saw most of European startups dreaming of going to the Silicon Valley or East Coast, the tide indeed has changed and many are building their companies now in their home countries, with no wish to even think of going to the US.
agentgt 10y ago
Why is it any economical success outside of the US is considered a problem? There is this constant capitalistic journalism need that the US must win on all fronts. Any success outside of the US "is a problem". For example if China does well in say for example solar research an article always seems to come out that this spells doom for the US. I want all of the world to improve and firmly believe "the rising tide lifts all boats".
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  The operating principle for the US government pretty much has to be this way. It's a "bug" in the concept of the nation-state. The natural state of the US - with "a moat the size of two oceans" - was isolationist for almost all its history, prior to WWII. Perhaps that's again a rising idea. And some of the writing on this subject is simply propaganda-ish. This being said, if I were, say, from India, it would bug me that I have to emigrate to innovate. Why should this be? Well, the US built more universities, which have lead times in decades. Okay, so send kids to school there, then make it to where they can practice back at home.
r2dnb 10y ago
I think that their claim that the country is losing more and more talent is realistic. I am one those who weighted going to this country to establish my company, but after a failure to find an acceptable immigration option, I went to the UK instead. I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of "normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing their high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years. In the UK, and in most places in Europe, an immigrant can take a job, change job, build a business on the side, and then manage the business full-time. In the american system, this is not possible : - If you come as a worker you are stuck in the H1B system where changing employer is a pain, starting a company requires sophisticated immigration layers, and the path to the green card often takes one decade or more - which entrepreneur with a burning idea in his mind would accept that ? - Otherwise, coming as an entrepreneur directly, requires $$$ which young people with creativity and energy simply do not have yet. The american system works fine as soon as you are backed by venture capital but is at present time not very welcoming for creative and talented people without deep pockets. This lack of exhaustivity is the issue. As far as I am concerned, I've been successful in the UK and am setting up an operation in the US now that I have the dollars. However I have decided to keep my headquarters and the bulk of my operations in the UK. Therefore I totally understand the feelings of the people quoted in the article who applied for a US visa a few years ago and are today saying "Why would I even go there ?" The US should really not underestimate the long-term destructive potential of this phenomenon. This situation is a dramatic departure from the original immigration spirit of the US which used to welcome creative immigrants with $0 in their pockets dreaming of success. These people were largely influential in building the wealthy nation we know today but the country seems to be kind of losing what made them great in the first place. Perhaps this is the time to Make America Great Again. (Sorry, too tempting)
- refriedbeans3 10y ago
  I don't disagree with many of your points, but I think perhaps what is missing is perspective. Playing a bit of devil's advocate: > I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of "normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing their high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years This doesn't move the needle in the biggest economy in the world. That's not even a viable business in most cities with high cost of living. At that rate you probably wouldn't even be able to pay yourself a decent wage, let alone hire anyone, within the first 2-3 years. Why would the United States want to let you in where there are more promising businesses/entrepreneurs on the path to $100m/year companies within 5 years?
briandear 10y ago
Let's not pretend the author doesn't have an ulterior motive. "I was one of the first to outsource software development to Russia in the early '90s. I was one of the first to use H-1B visas to bring workers to the U.S.A.," Wadhwa says. "Why did I do that? Because it was cheaper." That tactic is even more lucrative for corporations today, says Wadhwa: "When you have a person on H-1B waiting for a green card, you have them captive for six to 10 years." http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-wave-of-globalization--offshoring-r-d-to-india-and-china.html http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-wave...
davidf18 10y ago
A problem with the H1-B visa program is the abuse of firms such as Disney in FL, Southern California Edison, and Abbott Pharmaceuticals that have used H1-B workers to replace Americans at lower cost. In fact, even the Clinton Foundation has hired (or attempted to hire) H1-B instead of Americans. The H1-B is supposed to be used only in the case that an American can't be found to do the job. Americans can do IT. Other firms hire H1-B workers to save money using foreigners in place of Americans. Thus the hostility towards H1-B. I think it is highly unlikely that there are even 30,000 jobs per year where American where there is no American to do the job. Some obscure areas of science, for example. In many cases the Americans could be trained to do the specific job. My great grandparents came over and started a company but I don't recall knowing that they got any preferential treatment coning to this country.
- tejasd 10y ago
  The only reason H1-Bs are attractive to employers is because the employee is effectively chained to them (through the Green Card process) - which in the case of employers looking to cut costs suppresses wages. I think the best solution is to decouple the work visa and green card like Canada - and hand over more control to the employees. It will solve a lot of problems! Canada also does the Labor Market Opinions/US-PERM Certification in the visa phase instead of the Green Card phase in the US - which can theoretically cut down on the abuse of H1-Bs by companies like Disney via. consultancies.
  - davidf18 10y ago
    Actually, they are also attractive to employers because under the current rules, they can offer H1-B workers lower than the prevailing wage so they save money that way as well. Also, in most of the cases, as I pointed out in my comment, there are Americans that can do the jobs which violates the conditions of the H1-B.
- PacketPaul 10y ago
  A good example is Google. How many H1-B visas does Google employ? Why? They are the premier company in the US. They have their pick of employees. The idea they cannot find qualified employees is laughable. They want to keep rates low. Period.
jorblumesea 10y ago
The current visa program benefits very few other than large spaghetti farm factories like Tata/Infosys etc. It means the truly smart people have to compete with these large code farms which hire fairly mediocre talent and replaces American labor at the same time. Do away with the H1B lottery and replace it with a real visa program that takes into account the truly value people bring to this country. There are some very smart people from other countries that I would love to work with, but they are denied the ability to work here because of vested corporate interests in importing cheaper labor, not smarter labor.
asldjhcakjhc 10y ago
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- sctb 10y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490501 and marked it off-topic.
- kirkdouglas 10y ago
  > We do not pay H1B's less. According to some people I know (they are all on H1B) typically H1B offer is 10-15% less than average at software big corp such as Microsoft and Google.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - monkeyking123 10y ago
    That may not be completely true. All H1Bs I know make 10-15% more. At some point - we need to accept that US has broken education and health system. And don't have enough talent to fill all the positions. H1B is cheap - is indeed true, but that is not the fundamental problem.
- dudul 10y ago
  Cost of the paperwork is laughable. It's probably sometimes less than paying a recruiter's commission. Maybe the hiring salary is on par with other engineers, but later on it is easy to never touch this salary since the non-immigrant worker is bound to staying with Google or be deported.
  - jogjayr 10y ago
    > since the non-immigrant worker is bound to staying with Google or be deported. Why do people keep repeating this? It's not true. You can totally change employers on an H1 (I've done it twice). It just takes longer; 4 weeks to transfer your visa + 2 weeks notice. Your hypothetical Google H1 has recruiters contacting him/her day and night.
readhn 10y ago
American policies towards immigration are plain stupid, destructive and damaging economy potential long term. The solution IMO is very simple: open up easy immigration path to USA for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities. Thats it! Attract top talent! Start today! Not throw it away to your tomorrows competitors. Build better society/economy here in USA using help and labor of educated people who are eager to come here to build better lives for themselves and ultimately the entire country. People still want to come here despite even this shifting tide - the reason again simple - it is still one of the best place to live and work (there are plenty of other countries in Europe and outside of Europe as well), despite all the problems that USA has (like any country). Do not wait until we have to beg people to come here, because by then it will probably be too late.
- searine 10y ago
  >open up easy immigration path to USA for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities. AKA How to create diploma mills in one easy step.
  - zaidf 10y ago
    That is a catch-all argument against basically anything. So my catch-all response: "Obviously. So what? Not a super hard problem to fix."
  - readhn 10y ago
    >>for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities no, there should be a list of accredited universities - problem solved! (Insead, MC Gill, Oxford, MSU, UCL ... top schools !) If USA can steal that kinda of talent on a routine basis, can you imagine the things we can do for the economy/politicies/society?
    - bdhess 10y ago
      As someone who's been involved with university recruiting, it's clear to me that even great schools run moneymaker degree mill programs. There are degree mill programs in Top 5 CS schools because people from overseas are willing to pay substantially for the credential (and OPT).
eva1984 10y ago
> America’s most innovative company Apple?
- RileyKyeden 10y ago
  Microsoft is a strong contender for this title now that their teams are no longer constrained by a narrow focus on Windows.
  - whamlastxmas 10y ago
    It's hard to imagine any company making consumer devices or software is really the most innovative. Innovative to me means changing the way a society behaves. Uber is a great example despite all the negative things that could be said about them. Tesla is another.
    - vacri 10y ago
      The introduction of the iphone made everyone in a public space look downwards instead of forwards... But seriously, Apple has done more than Uber has. Uber's function is just a different form of taxi - they haven't changed the way the public behaves. Big-screen smartphones have.
      - whamlastxmas 10y ago
        The first iPhone only barely beat to market theHTC Dream. It was very similar to the iPhone in terms of being a modern smart phone, and the way we use smart phones today would not be that much different or that much less common if the iPhone never existed. If there was a bigger gap between the iPhone and HTC Dream, you could maybe make an argument that one influenced the other. But that's not really the case. If it wasn't for the first ride-sharing company like Uber getting successful, we could have very well seen another decade+ of shitty taxi cabs.
caethan 10y ago
Brain drain from developing to developed countries is far from a clear win. Here's some good links talking about the effect of emigration of Kenyan health care workers (mostly to the UK and the US) on Kenya: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/ https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/content/images/migration%20of%20health%20workers%20in%20kenya.pdf https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/cont... Half of Kenyan-trained doctors live and work outside of Kenya. That represents a multi-million dollar direct cost just in the governmental and societal resources used to train those doctors, and a much larger cost to society of the limited health care infrastructure thanks to a loss of so many workers.
readhn 10y ago
If things are so great and looking up in China, why do Chinese millionaires send their kids and families to USA/Canada? Why do they buy up the majority of real estate in New York, Boston, San Francisco, Vancouver, London?
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  When I've asked people from China why they put up with the hassle, the answer has been - they want their kids to be Americans. It's really pretty impressive. Buying real estate is a hedge strategy. You might as well; productive investment is treated shabbily ( in terms of returns) in this economy.
  - readhn 10y ago
    Sure money laundering and legalizing it in the USA etc by buying real estate in USA/Great Britain / Canada is the thing to do today. Pretty simple scheme thats being completely ignored by the FEDs today. They'd rather chase after some pathetic shoe bombers.
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      I think we should tax the ... fire out of them. Is that ...chauvinistic? SFAIK, I cannot buy land in Mexico at any price. They got burned and banned it.
morgante 10y ago
It frustrates me that this article conflates a true and serious problem (the harm to American innovation caused by bad immigration policies) with blatant hyperbole. The narrative is also totally inconsistent. Is the problem that foreign entrepreneurs don't want to come to the US at all (what it seems to start with/imply) or that our immigration policies make it exceedingly difficult even when you want to (the truth and meat of the article)? This would be a much better piece if it cut out the bullshit and focused on immigration. The iPhone 7 has literally nothing to do with foreign entrepreneurs not coming to the US, so why is that the lede? It makes the whole article start on terrible footing. > There are start-up incubators sprouting up all over India, and the quality of the start-ups is second only to those in Silicon Valley and China, which are running head to head. Only someone with their head in the sand could actually think this is true. I've spent time in non-US startup hubs, including Chinese ones, and they're definitely not neck-and-neck. Chinese startups might be catching up, but they're still a distant second place by any conceivable metric. > The reality is that America’s most innovative company is no longer the world’s most innovative company. Apple might not be the world's most innovative company but I would happily bet that the most innovative companies in the world continue to be in the US. > As technology designer Himanshu Khanna said, “Why should I move to Silicon Valley when I have a market 10 times as large here?” By what conceivable metric is the Indian market 10 times larger in general? It's farcical and defies basic economics to say something like that.

193 points by jackgavigan 10y ago

I would propose that fewer American entrepreneurs would say they need the U.S. as well. The world is globalizing—and I think that's a good thing.

Practicality 10y ago

Bring it on! The more in this party the merrier. If other countries want to create competing systems in similar markets, fantastic, it can only create more innovation and ideas.

an0n_guy 10y ago

What about Australia guys?... Recently I got an offer from university of Melbourne (Msc in CS), and i am deciding whether to accept or not. My main area of Interest is NLP/ML and I am interested in a professor's research, that was my main interest in the university…. However, i do not know if Australia and Melbourne will give me the opportunity of develop into the tech scene (is there a tech scene in Melbourne?)… My options are a two fold... to wait a year and apply to the USA or to the UK or to take Melbourne alternative?.

nl 10y ago
The Australian tech scene is ok - it isn't Silicon Valley, but nowhere is. Sydney has more action than Melbourne, but it's only a half-hour away.

contingencies 10y ago

As a serial entrepreneur, I consider China to be awesome right now. Not only is cash easier than ever to get (perfect storm of low domestic interest rates, government outbound forex controls, stock market scares, private sector domestic financial institution mismanagement and bankruptcies, and the widely recognized end of the era of easy real estate sector profits: the previous go-to for parking domestic assets), but overheads are low and the country has the world's most efficient supply-chain[0] (~2-3 days for anything, 24x7x365) for almost any electronics or components (perfect for hardware startups), a central location in Asia and a huge domestic market. On the flip side, international internet can be a drag (slow) and a stable visa situation, while achievable, affordable and essentially permanently secure (unlike most western countries), takes a few months to settle. At my current startup[1] we are currently locking down a rental agreement on an office and may use the rest of the space (significant) to re-start a local makerspace concept that failed to get enough fiscal traction last year.[2] If anyone out there is working on a hardware project and looking for a low-cost base of operations, we can give you a home. In time I would love to transition to an incubator. Previously I worked in the US (establishing the first foreign office of a London startup), for the US remotely (new SF-based startup), in the UK, China and Australia. I feel the US has a great ecosystem for investment but this is largely outweighed by hassles on visas, litigation, cost and zero life-stability for non green card holders with families. The UK is simply expensive (also with visa hassles) and other than fintech or UK university-related research spinoffs seems sub-optimal. Australia is very strong on research but overheads, lack of VC and a small and widely dispersed domestic market mean that commercialization remains a bigger hurdle than it needs to be. [0] http://taobao.com/ http://taobao.com/ [1] http://8-food.com/ http://8-food.com/ [2] http://cave.pratyeka.org/ http://cave.pratyeka.org/

an0n_guy 10y ago
From your experience in terms of money, entrepreneurship, lifestyle, and research... which is a safer option between Edinburgh and Melbourne?

_RPM 10y ago

So, I'm going to get down voted for this, but as a US citizen, I don't want there to be more H1B status workers granted. They are my direct competition as a new graduate. Bringing them in here drives down the cost of labor for software engineering because most of the timer those status workers don't have leverage and will accept a below market salary or wages. Yes, I know it's been stated at huge companies like Facebook that the H1B holders get paid the same, that can't possibly be true for all the companies that hire software engineers.

mc32 10y ago

It's really not a sign of a problem but rather a sign of improving local conditions in those up and coming countries. This development will lead to better local economies, locals with better local opportunities and ultimately better wealth distribution (rather than entrepreneur wealth/taxes contributing to American coffers they will contribute to local coffers improving the lives of locals). And additionally by having fewer people adopt our expensive lifestyle as they would had they migrated people will contribute less toward climate change so, win-win.

scriptkiddy 10y ago
I also believe that the improved economies in those nations will lead to wage increases. That will, in turn make it less profitable to outsource to those nations. In turn, that will hopefully bring more jobs back to the U.S. Sounds like a win-win really.
vthallam 10y ago
While you what say is true, countries compete for talent/jobs/economy. Its not like US thinks we have had enough of talent, so let China and India prosper. The point the author is making is that, the USA should compete for talent by easing rules, giving PR's to talented individuals.

mattnewton 10y ago

Haven't finished the article, but it boggles my mind how anyone would be afraid of Chinese competition because Apple copied wechat and removed the headphone jack second. The features they are talking about where available in most other messaging apps, notably Facebook messenger, ever since Line and other Korean [Edit: LINE is Japanese] apps introduced it (there may be an even earlier case, it has been around so long). Apple plays catch up from time to time, nothing new to see here. And removing the headphone jack is not innovation. Will continue reading the article, but if this is what America thinks is innovation, that's the dangerous thing, not China. Besides, I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing besides some jingoist pride? Letting Chinese companies foot the R&D bill in a few cases would certainly be cheaper. As long as we continue to attempt to compete, and don't throw our hands up because they had chat stickers before one of our American companies.

arcanus 10y ago
> I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing No, it would be a great thing. Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. I expect serious competition to enhance R+D, not diminish it. No CEO buys back shares or increases dividends when they have a serious competitor. They pour money into R+D, new equipment and strategic acquisitions.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  "Competition is good" may or may not be true. It depends. A rough rule of thumb is that a new idea has to be 10x better than the old idea to be worth it. The count of 10x ideas is dwindling.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  I've had to make a similar argument in another related thread. Its like the question of "who is #1" and "whats best for you" are mingled. If china comes out strong with new products , cheaper prices, more R&D , as a consumer we will all greatly benefit!

Jimmy 10y ago

>handsets without headphone jacks long before Apple did This is not an innovation. Not every change is an innovation. In fact, this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and I intend on never buying an Apple product again.

kctess5 10y ago
Yeah I really don't understand this move. Looks like I'll stick with my iPhone SE until it dies and never "upgrade".
pat2man 10y ago
I'm predicting Android manufacturers will follow suit within 2 years.
- vidarh 10y ago
  I'm sure some will, but the sheer variety of Android handsets means it's highly unlikely it'll disappear from all of the viable ones anytime soon if people actually want them. There are a huge number of niche, speciality phones, such as phones with extra many SIM-slots - max I've seen is five - extra large batteries, up to 10,000mAh - extra rugged - huge extra antennas - water proof - models with walkie talkie functionality, and many other special purpose models. This is the advantage of reference designs that get copied and adapted over and over cheaply, allowing tons of different companies to churn out variations cheaply. Given that, I'm sure there will be ones with wired headphone connectors for a very long time.
- boodm 10y ago
  The problem is, the manufacturers will not be able to follow suit with thunderbolt. So... what will device makers use? The BIG problem is they will likely not even use the same "standard" across Android devices... what is a headphones manufacturer to do?
  - bduerst 10y ago
    >So... what will device makers use? USB Type-C, if they were so inclined.

mhurron 10y ago

The idea that everything must be in California to matter dying is a good thing for everyone except those in California who refuse to change. Maybe people will realize you can do most technology jobs from anywhere in the world. No one is at the top forever, that includes the US.

bsenftner 10y ago
It is very clear that the US is no longer the top in many areas, and is slipping fast. The USA is actively rearranging the deck chairs in what is going to be a monumental Titanic the rest of the world will enjoy watching sink. As a "leader nation" we've been deplorable in many of the aspects that matter. Few outside the USA will shed many tears, as we've been ruthless towards other nations not subservient to our corporations. Yeah, we do just enough good to pass, and not much more, and then only when it serves our corporate masters.
- yardie 10y ago
  The US has been in decline since before I was even born, mid 30s now. Things have gotten better in other developing countries, yes. And things have gotten better here as well. The only people that truly believe the US is in decline are Trump voters, neoliberals, and survivalists.
- dba7dba 10y ago
  You may not get all teary but let's remember why US has had to keep a such massive arsenal and expand so much energy globally. It was to counter Nazi Germany, Russia, and Japanese Empire. Before WW1 and WW2, US was indeed a 2nd tier nation but they were quite happy. And don't forget, corporate masters are everywhere, not just in US.
- hx87 10y ago
  You can say that about every large country ever.
  - bsenftner 10y ago

kragen 10y ago

It is difficult for me to imagine the level of jingoism necessary to consider it a problem that foreign entrepreneurs don't need the US. Why would you want the entire world to be dependent on the US? That doesn't help either the US or the rest of the world.

mtviewdave 10y ago
I think the reason is that, at some level, Wadhwa believes that immigrants make better entrepreneurs than (native-born) Americans. He's never said that outright, but that's been a theme in his writing for a while. For example, from the article: America has lost an entire generation of entrepreneurs and innovators and bolstered its global competition. That is also why the proportion of immigrant-founded start-ups in Silicon Valley fell from 52 percent in 2005 to 44 percent in 2012 and is probably even lower today. It's possible that a lower proportion of startups are immigrant-founded because there are fewer immigrant founders, but it's also possible that there may be more native-born Americans becoming entrepreneurs. One can't tell from just this statistic. If the ratio has changed because of an increase in American entrepreneurship, then Wadhwa's argument becomes that it's bad for the U.S. if more Americans become entrepreneurs. Which is weird. And being an American myself, something I find quite offensive.
nkassis 10y ago
I mean it does help the US and it's citizen's to be the center of innovation and for others to depend on american economic outputs. I'm not sure that it's Jingoism for people in the US to think that losing out of our competitive advantages as a nation is a bad thing for the future of those people.

msvan 10y ago

I think this article is exaggerating. In the long run, maybe the US will lose its luster, but it is still a very desirable place to live. The US has a secret weapon for solving its growth problems: let more people in. Is there any country in the world apart from the US that chooses to refuse a long line of highly qualified people looking to come and pay taxes?

calvinbhai 10y ago

I'm really glad US has such tight immigration norms. As someone from India, it is great the see that those innovators who couldn't get visas, are innovating outside US and living a much better life. why move be an alien in US, when you can live in home country and innovate? I think the author (also an Indian turned American) has been making this point for quite a few years. Not all, but some of America's loss is China and India's gain. India and China are so vastly different markets, that most of the products made for US really dont fit outside US. And innovating in China / India truly help these countries!

dhab 10y ago
Can you provide some examples of product-market mismatch outside US - for types of things cities akin to Silicon Valley come up with?
- jeyoor 10y ago
  It seems that markets such as India and China[1] are more comfortable with apps packed with numerous features (i.e. WeChat or LINE), whereas US apps seem to usually be more focused on minimalism [2]. Snapchat is a notable US counter-example. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/technology/china-mobile-tech-innovation-silicon-valley.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/technology/china-mobile-te... [2] https://blog.benroux.me/your-app-has-one-feature/ https://blog.benroux.me/your-app-has-one-feature/
  - gohrt 10y ago
    That's not really a feature that people are "comfortable with", that's because Chinese Internet has been captured by monopolists, like the AOL of USA in the 1990s.
    - cerebellum42 10y ago
      I doubt that's all there is to it, there really are some cultural differences that show when you take western services and put them on the chinese market. Amazon for example found that their site simply looked too "clean", had too much whitespace, for the chinese market. All that empty space was not taken as a clean look by users, but as a sign that there weren't a lot of products available. If I go to amazon.com now, there are literally 5 products on the landing page. On amazon.cn, more like 30-50. (I am recounting this story as it was told by an Amazon employee who came to my Uni a while back)

tn13 10y ago

That is a good thing. USA's ridiculous immigration norms is a big problem.

biocomputation 10y ago
Really? How so?

pzh 10y ago

The author of the article, Vivek Wadhwa, is one of the most famous academic proponents of the H-1B visa. When I read the title, I initially thought the article would be about innovation and the startup climate in SV, but as I was progressing through, it confirmed my suspicions--it was another veiled opinion piece for increasing H-1B visa numbers. Maybe there is some value to his observations and arguments, but other readers should be aware what the ultimate goal is here...

biocomputation 10y ago
Thanks for the information! I too thought the article would be able innovation and markets. America definitely does not need more H1B workers.
- gorkemyurt 10y ago
  Yea America needs a different visa that allows people in without a lottery.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    H1B visas smack of indentured servitude.
timewarrior 10y ago
I think you guys are missing the point. I know he normally is in favor of H1 but not this article. He mentions two mains things in his post: 1. Give a path of Green Card to entrepreneurs. 2. Do not bound h1b employees to current jobs. Right now US is allowing quasi slavery by bounding workers to their jobs and making it really difficult to switch. If employers couldn't enslave h1 workers it wouldn't be economically viable for them and they are get lot less h1 workers. I have worked at startups all of my career, built the biggest social network to come out of India, built another startup, sold it to Dropbox, currently head the innovation group at a Fortune 15. All I want to do is build startups. But on H1 I can't hold majority stake in my own company, and because of my previous experience I don't want to do a startup again on h1. It will take me 20 years to get a Green Card on EB-2. I am trying for EB-1 but even with my background it will be difficult. If I don't get a Green Card by next year I will move out of US. I am also discouraging any Entrepreneurs I know in India against a move to US. I sincerely hope that the situation improves.

mbostleman 10y ago

If the US wants, it can a) start growing it's own tech people instead of being constrained by a lack of them, b) make immigration easier for tech people in the meantime, and c) stop focusing on bringing manufacturing back and focus instead on moving people's skills up the value chain so that they can innovate as opposed to stamping and assembling the innovations of others. Also, not sure that putting two cameras on a phone and removing the headphone jack is exactly innovation. Those seem more like features. The Internet and mobile devices are real innovation imo.

paulsutter 10y ago
What phone were you using 10 years ago (2006), and how does it compare to phones today? Bill Gates says that people overestimate what will happen in two years, and underestimate what will happen in ten years. It's easier to see that looking back.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- a3n 10y ago
  A Nokia feature phone. I liked it a lot. For you younger people ... you see, Nokia was a company that made excellent phones that almost no other company could touch, and then ...
  - tw04 10y ago
    And then Apple figured out the average American cares more about what they pay monthly for an object than they do about the total cost. So instead of "owning" a phone that you could run over with a truck, you "rented" a phone that would break if you looked at it wrong for 7x the price. Brilliant move on their part, and I wouldn't trade my google maps for anything. But I miss the hell out of my blackberry email to this day.
    - pfranz 10y ago
      > And then Apple figured out the average American cares more about what they pay monthly for an object than they do about the total cost. To be fair, that was a trend long before Apple made phones. To me, it looked like they tried to break that trend but got too much resistance from users who wouldn't pay the upfront cost.

bwb 10y ago

It isn't a problem, it is the effect of the rest of the world's economy growing up. We are getting smaller and that is a good thing globally. Instead more Americans need to be focusing outward.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jkaljundi 10y ago

Compared to 2009-2011, when I saw most of European startups dreaming of going to the Silicon Valley or East Coast, the tide indeed has changed and many are building their companies now in their home countries, with no wish to even think of going to the US.

agentgt 10y ago

Why is it any economical success outside of the US is considered a problem? There is this constant capitalistic journalism need that the US must win on all fronts. Any success outside of the US "is a problem". For example if China does well in say for example solar research an article always seems to come out that this spells doom for the US. I want all of the world to improve and firmly believe "the rising tide lifts all boats".

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
The operating principle for the US government pretty much has to be this way. It's a "bug" in the concept of the nation-state. The natural state of the US - with "a moat the size of two oceans" - was isolationist for almost all its history, prior to WWII. Perhaps that's again a rising idea. And some of the writing on this subject is simply propaganda-ish. This being said, if I were, say, from India, it would bug me that I have to emigrate to innovate. Why should this be? Well, the US built more universities, which have lead times in decades. Okay, so send kids to school there, then make it to where they can practice back at home.

r2dnb 10y ago

I think that their claim that the country is losing more and more talent is realistic. I am one those who weighted going to this country to establish my company, but after a failure to find an acceptable immigration option, I went to the UK instead. I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of "normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing their high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years. In the UK, and in most places in Europe, an immigrant can take a job, change job, build a business on the side, and then manage the business full-time. In the american system, this is not possible : - If you come as a worker you are stuck in the H1B system where changing employer is a pain, starting a company requires sophisticated immigration layers, and the path to the green card often takes one decade or more - which entrepreneur with a burning idea in his mind would accept that ? - Otherwise, coming as an entrepreneur directly, requires $$$ which young people with creativity and energy simply do not have yet. The american system works fine as soon as you are backed by venture capital but is at present time not very welcoming for creative and talented people without deep pockets. This lack of exhaustivity is the issue. As far as I am concerned, I've been successful in the UK and am setting up an operation in the US now that I have the dollars. However I have decided to keep my headquarters and the bulk of my operations in the UK. Therefore I totally understand the feelings of the people quoted in the article who applied for a US visa a few years ago and are today saying "Why would I even go there ?" The US should really not underestimate the long-term destructive potential of this phenomenon. This situation is a dramatic departure from the original immigration spirit of the US which used to welcome creative immigrants with $0 in their pockets dreaming of success. These people were largely influential in building the wealthy nation we know today but the country seems to be kind of losing what made them great in the first place. Perhaps this is the time to Make America Great Again. (Sorry, too tempting)

refriedbeans3 10y ago
I don't disagree with many of your points, but I think perhaps what is missing is perspective. Playing a bit of devil's advocate: > I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of "normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing their high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years This doesn't move the needle in the biggest economy in the world. That's not even a viable business in most cities with high cost of living. At that rate you probably wouldn't even be able to pay yourself a decent wage, let alone hire anyone, within the first 2-3 years. Why would the United States want to let you in where there are more promising businesses/entrepreneurs on the path to $100m/year companies within 5 years?

briandear 10y ago

Let's not pretend the author doesn't have an ulterior motive. "I was one of the first to outsource software development to Russia in the early '90s. I was one of the first to use H-1B visas to bring workers to the U.S.A.," Wadhwa says. "Why did I do that? Because it was cheaper." That tactic is even more lucrative for corporations today, says Wadhwa: "When you have a person on H-1B waiting for a green card, you have them captive for six to 10 years." http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-wave-of-globalization--offshoring-r-d-to-india-and-china.html http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-wave...

davidf18 10y ago

A problem with the H1-B visa program is the abuse of firms such as Disney in FL, Southern California Edison, and Abbott Pharmaceuticals that have used H1-B workers to replace Americans at lower cost. In fact, even the Clinton Foundation has hired (or attempted to hire) H1-B instead of Americans. The H1-B is supposed to be used only in the case that an American can't be found to do the job. Americans can do IT. Other firms hire H1-B workers to save money using foreigners in place of Americans. Thus the hostility towards H1-B. I think it is highly unlikely that there are even 30,000 jobs per year where American where there is no American to do the job. Some obscure areas of science, for example. In many cases the Americans could be trained to do the specific job. My great grandparents came over and started a company but I don't recall knowing that they got any preferential treatment coning to this country.

tejasd 10y ago
The only reason H1-Bs are attractive to employers is because the employee is effectively chained to them (through the Green Card process) - which in the case of employers looking to cut costs suppresses wages. I think the best solution is to decouple the work visa and green card like Canada - and hand over more control to the employees. It will solve a lot of problems! Canada also does the Labor Market Opinions/US-PERM Certification in the visa phase instead of the Green Card phase in the US - which can theoretically cut down on the abuse of H1-Bs by companies like Disney via. consultancies.
- davidf18 10y ago
  Actually, they are also attractive to employers because under the current rules, they can offer H1-B workers lower than the prevailing wage so they save money that way as well. Also, in most of the cases, as I pointed out in my comment, there are Americans that can do the jobs which violates the conditions of the H1-B.
PacketPaul 10y ago
A good example is Google. How many H1-B visas does Google employ? Why? They are the premier company in the US. They have their pick of employees. The idea they cannot find qualified employees is laughable. They want to keep rates low. Period.

jorblumesea 10y ago

The current visa program benefits very few other than large spaghetti farm factories like Tata/Infosys etc. It means the truly smart people have to compete with these large code farms which hire fairly mediocre talent and replaces American labor at the same time. Do away with the H1B lottery and replace it with a real visa program that takes into account the truly value people bring to this country. There are some very smart people from other countries that I would love to work with, but they are denied the ability to work here because of vested corporate interests in importing cheaper labor, not smarter labor.

asldjhcakjhc 10y ago

sctb 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490501 and marked it off-topic.
kirkdouglas 10y ago
> We do not pay H1B's less. According to some people I know (they are all on H1B) typically H1B offer is 10-15% less than average at software big corp such as Microsoft and Google.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- monkeyking123 10y ago
  That may not be completely true. All H1Bs I know make 10-15% more. At some point - we need to accept that US has broken education and health system. And don't have enough talent to fill all the positions. H1B is cheap - is indeed true, but that is not the fundamental problem.
dudul 10y ago
Cost of the paperwork is laughable. It's probably sometimes less than paying a recruiter's commission. Maybe the hiring salary is on par with other engineers, but later on it is easy to never touch this salary since the non-immigrant worker is bound to staying with Google or be deported.
- jogjayr 10y ago
  > since the non-immigrant worker is bound to staying with Google or be deported. Why do people keep repeating this? It's not true. You can totally change employers on an H1 (I've done it twice). It just takes longer; 4 weeks to transfer your visa + 2 weeks notice. Your hypothetical Google H1 has recruiters contacting him/her day and night.

readhn 10y ago

American policies towards immigration are plain stupid, destructive and damaging economy potential long term. The solution IMO is very simple: open up easy immigration path to USA for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities. Thats it! Attract top talent! Start today! Not throw it away to your tomorrows competitors. Build better society/economy here in USA using help and labor of educated people who are eager to come here to build better lives for themselves and ultimately the entire country. People still want to come here despite even this shifting tide - the reason again simple - it is still one of the best place to live and work (there are plenty of other countries in Europe and outside of Europe as well), despite all the problems that USA has (like any country). Do not wait until we have to beg people to come here, because by then it will probably be too late.

searine 10y ago
>open up easy immigration path to USA for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities. AKA How to create diploma mills in one easy step.
- zaidf 10y ago
  That is a catch-all argument against basically anything. So my catch-all response: "Obviously. So what? Not a super hard problem to fix."
- readhn 10y ago
  >>for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's accredited universities no, there should be a list of accredited universities - problem solved! (Insead, MC Gill, Oxford, MSU, UCL ... top schools !) If USA can steal that kinda of talent on a routine basis, can you imagine the things we can do for the economy/politicies/society?
  - bdhess 10y ago
    As someone who's been involved with university recruiting, it's clear to me that even great schools run moneymaker degree mill programs. There are degree mill programs in Top 5 CS schools because people from overseas are willing to pay substantially for the credential (and OPT).

eva1984 10y ago

> America’s most innovative company Apple?

RileyKyeden 10y ago
Microsoft is a strong contender for this title now that their teams are no longer constrained by a narrow focus on Windows.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  It's hard to imagine any company making consumer devices or software is really the most innovative. Innovative to me means changing the way a society behaves. Uber is a great example despite all the negative things that could be said about them. Tesla is another.
  - vacri 10y ago
    The introduction of the iphone made everyone in a public space look downwards instead of forwards... But seriously, Apple has done more than Uber has. Uber's function is just a different form of taxi - they haven't changed the way the public behaves. Big-screen smartphones have.
    - whamlastxmas 10y ago
      The first iPhone only barely beat to market theHTC Dream. It was very similar to the iPhone in terms of being a modern smart phone, and the way we use smart phones today would not be that much different or that much less common if the iPhone never existed. If there was a bigger gap between the iPhone and HTC Dream, you could maybe make an argument that one influenced the other. But that's not really the case. If it wasn't for the first ride-sharing company like Uber getting successful, we could have very well seen another decade+ of shitty taxi cabs.

caethan 10y ago

Brain drain from developing to developed countries is far from a clear win. Here's some good links talking about the effect of emigration of Kenyan health care workers (mostly to the UK and the US) on Kenya: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/ https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/content/images/migration%20of%20health%20workers%20in%20kenya.pdf https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/cont... Half of Kenyan-trained doctors live and work outside of Kenya. That represents a multi-million dollar direct cost just in the governmental and societal resources used to train those doctors, and a much larger cost to society of the limited health care infrastructure thanks to a loss of so many workers.

readhn 10y ago

If things are so great and looking up in China, why do Chinese millionaires send their kids and families to USA/Canada? Why do they buy up the majority of real estate in New York, Boston, San Francisco, Vancouver, London?

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
When I've asked people from China why they put up with the hassle, the answer has been - they want their kids to be Americans. It's really pretty impressive. Buying real estate is a hedge strategy. You might as well; productive investment is treated shabbily ( in terms of returns) in this economy.
- readhn 10y ago
  Sure money laundering and legalizing it in the USA etc by buying real estate in USA/Great Britain / Canada is the thing to do today. Pretty simple scheme thats being completely ignored by the FEDs today. They'd rather chase after some pathetic shoe bombers.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    I think we should tax the ... fire out of them. Is that ...chauvinistic? SFAIK, I cannot buy land in Mexico at any price. They got burned and banned it.

morgante 10y ago

It frustrates me that this article conflates a true and serious problem (the harm to American innovation caused by bad immigration policies) with blatant hyperbole. The narrative is also totally inconsistent. Is the problem that foreign entrepreneurs don't want to come to the US at all (what it seems to start with/imply) or that our immigration policies make it exceedingly difficult even when you want to (the truth and meat of the article)? This would be a much better piece if it cut out the bullshit and focused on immigration. The iPhone 7 has literally nothing to do with foreign entrepreneurs not coming to the US, so why is that the lede? It makes the whole article start on terrible footing. > There are start-up incubators sprouting up all over India, and the quality of the start-ups is second only to those in Silicon Valley and China, which are running head to head. Only someone with their head in the sand could actually think this is true. I've spent time in non-US startup hubs, including Chinese ones, and they're definitely not neck-and-neck. Chinese startups might be catching up, but they're still a distant second place by any conceivable metric. > The reality is that America’s most innovative company is no longer the world’s most innovative company. Apple might not be the world's most innovative company but I would happily bet that the most innovative companies in the world continue to be in the US. > As technology designer Himanshu Khanna said, “Why should I move to Silicon Valley when I have a market 10 times as large here?” By what conceivable metric is the Indian market 10 times larger in general? It's farcical and defies basic economics to say something like that.