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North Korea defied world with nuclear test. Now it seeks aid for flood disaster
- powera 10y agoNot one dime from the US or Japan or South Korea. Let China handle it. Or let the people starve and the military regime collapse. Better a pound of suffering today than an ounce of suffering for all time.
- jacquesm 10y ago> Or let the people starve and the military regime collapse. Those are not necessarily connected, but of course it's easy to command a couple of million people to starve when you and yours are not personally affected.
- kayone 10y agoIt's amusing to watch how people are ok with trying out their international politics theories at the cost of a couple of million people starving.
- digi_owl 10y ago"1 death is a tragedy, 1 million a statistic"...
- dredmorbius 10y ago... 1 billion is Big Data.
- Grishnakh 10y agoThe alternative is to help them develop nuclear weapons and threaten SK even more, and possibly mount an attack. Why would you provide aid to someone who intends to use that aid to attack you?
- Afforess 10y agoYou do understand the citizens of North Korea are effectively captives, and victims, not enablers of the regime, right? Starving out North Korea to win the war will leave behind nothing worth rescuing.
- omginternets 10y agoOther than human life, what is there right now that's worth rescuing? I'm not trying to be provocative. I just can't for the life of me find an argument for preserving anything in the DPRK aside from human life. Since the parent post is effectively arguing that ending the North Korean regime is worth sacrificing some number of people, I'm struggling to understand your counter-argument.
- grimmdude 10y agoAt what point does the status of millions of citizens shift from captives to enablers?
- MrZongle2 10y agoYou do understand the citizens of North Korea are effectively captives, and victims, not enablers of the regime, right? And from where does the Kim regime get its enforcers? From the same pool of citizens that will be starving. There may be some trickle-down of food and medicine to those that oversee the dirty work, but when things get dire enough even they will see the writing on the wall. Helping North Korea merely prolongs the status quo, and has been the case for decades. What would the Korean peninsula look like today if the international community had ignored the DPRK during its 1994-1998 famine?
- Fej 10y agoAiding DPRK would be a dangerous move. Either their populace starves or their weapons program loses money. If the population starves, there's a huge higher chance of revolution. As terrible as it is, it's a win-win for the international community, and even North Korea as well, in the long term.
- omginternets 10y agoI dunno. I see your point and if it were nearly any other nation, I'd even agree, but there's something special about the DPRK. I frankly don't see them ever revolting. It's perhaps the only country that's so successfully isolated it's population and -- as much as I dislike the term -- brainwashed them. I'm beginning to think they'd sooner starve than revolt. After all, they've already been through this so many times...
- reitoei 10y agoThis is a country that operates death camps for minor crime. The chances of a revolution led by the civilian populace is nil thanks to decades of fear and brainwashing. It needs to have the support of the military.
- smacktoward 10y ago> If the population starves, there's a huge higher chance of revolution What makes you think so? They already went through one horrible famine (the "Arduous March", back in the '90s, which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine) without support for the regime shaking. The absolutely stunning amount of indoctrination and thought control the government has put its people through has made North Korea a place where the normal political laws of nature do not apply. Light bends by itself, water flows uphill. It's a deeply weird place, which makes predicting how its people will react to events very difficult.
- justin66 10y agoNorth Korea's population is already starving.
- joshmn 10y agoThere are so many jokes to be made about this country. I'm guilty as making them and finding them humorous. But there are people who live in this country, who can't escape, who are struck by fear, who are brainwashed, who know nothing of the outside world.
- acbabis 10y agoThat's getting less and less common. Apparently its really easy for North Koreans to get smuggled media from other countries, and a lot of the guards look the other way or take bribes. Most North Koreans probably realize how bad their situation is but don't say anything because they don't want to go to a labor camp.
- repler 10y agoYeah! In Cuba there's a whole network of USB thumb drives with new content each week. It's pretty awesome. Of course, you still need a computer. Is this sort of thing going on in NK as well?
- acbabis 10y agoThat's my understanding. People there also obtain radios and listen to South Korean broadcasts, some of which contain anti-NK messages
- froindt 10y agoYes it is, but with some other challenges. Redstar OS is a linux distribution which is distributed by the North Korean government. It has a system built in pretty deep which watermarks files. https://youtu.be/KTBemKiSgWI?t=1737 https://youtu.be/KTBemKiSgWI?t=1737 If the government gets a copy of the file from someone, they can to some degree trace back where else the file has been.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ldehaan 10y agoI'm pretty cold, but that's ice cold. What they should do is say, we'll give you aid if you let us build a military base in Pyongyang and then litter the whole country with flyers announcing the potential aide but on those conditions, and let it go from there.
- Retr0spectrum 10y agoTheir response would most likely be "no thanks". Would that make it any better than not offering to help at all?
- John23832 10y agoSadly, I think the best thing to do is to say no. North Korea makes decisions that constantly harms it's people. Conducting nuclear test after nuclear test, for what? To say you have one? To have another toy to saber rattle with? All while preaching that it exists in a sheltered paradise. All while its people starve. Giving them aid even though they defy what pretty much everyone in the world asks them to do (even China is getting towards their wits end), only allows them to defy even more. To abuse their people even more. Not aiding them at least gives their people a chance to see what is really going on. Sadly that means some people may starve, and I'd hate to see that happen, but honestly, what else do you do?
- karma_vaccum123 10y agoProblem is...North Korea is a legitimate existential threat to a key US ally (South Korea) and a meaningful threat to others (Japan). We have fun laughing at North Korea but they are armed to the teeth and are indeed capable of turning Seoul into a cinder.
- snerbles 10y agoThis capability comes with or without nuclear weapons as well, since Seoul is located well within artillery range of the north.
- sliverstorm 10y agoYou wouldn't know it given the land size of the country, but NK used to have the third largest standing army in the world, after the USA & PRC. (They are fourth now, after India)
- douche 10y agoWhich would stand up just about as well as the Iraqi army did in either Gulf War after a week's worth of airstrikes from a CAG in the Sea of Japan, cruise missiles and land-based bombers out of Japan. It'd be a turkey-shoot.
- partycoder 10y agoI think it is important to make a distinction between the regime and the people. In this perspective, it is wrong to start mocking their country.
- mmanfrin 10y agoThese are linked; every time NK wants something, it starts rattling its sabres so that when talks over aid happen, they can leverage more.
- karmachameleon2 10y agoIf the West actually wanted to help NK, they'd assassinate the fuck out of the tyrannical, mass-murdering ruling class, as long as necessary.
- slim 10y ago"defied the world" Who are they talking about? I don't feel defied. Mostly my feeling about North Korea is that they need help
- brudgers 10y agoNuclear testing and flood relief are orthogonal issues. Particularly under a regime with limited consent from the governed.
- jedberg 10y agoThis is like when teachers are getting screwed and can't go on strike. In the teacher's case, if they go on strike it hurts the students the most, wheres the administration just has to deal with a small backlash. In this case if we deny them help, we hurt the people of the DPRK, not really the administration. So the global community are the teachers, who want to help the people of the DPRK, are angry at the administration, and can't do anything but keep helping.
- cprayingmantis 10y agoWhy can't we treat this like a hostage situation? Tell NK we will provide X amount of aid if they will release Y number of citizens of their choosing. That way we lighten suffering on the country as a whole but also end suffering for some of its citizens.
- John23832 10y agoThen you get into a game of escalation where you pay more and more for fewer and fewer people. That's not good either.
- cprayingmantis 10y agoYeah that would probably happen, I was just trying to throw out new solutions that didn't end with millions dying.
- Raphmedia 10y agoAnd put them where? Europe too?
- YesAllRefugees 10y agoEspecially Europe.
- tsomctl 10y agoAnd where do they go? One of the reasons why China supports North Korea is because they don't want a bunch of refugees coming in.
- cprayingmantis 10y agoThat's the beauty of tying it to aid. You'll have a slow trickle instead of a huge flood. I'm sure the nations that are involved would figure something out on accepting 5k refugees at a time.
- lisper 10y agoThe fundamental problem with NK is that it successfully sustains the fiction that the U.S. is going to attack "real soon now". That widespread (in NK) belief combined with nukes is a very dangerous combination. We can't do much about the nukes, but this humanitarian crisis provides an opportunity to move the needle on the Dangerous Fiction: make a public offer to provide humanitarian aid in exchange for a public acknowledgement that the aid is coming from the U.S. This acknowledgement would have to be broadcast on NK television so we can know that the NK people will see it. Yes, it is unlikely that KJU would accept this. The goal here is not to actually extract the concession, but rather to sow seeds of doubt in the Dangerous Fiction in the minds of the NK elites by setting up a situation where the only reason that people are starving is KJU's refusal to acknowledge a simple truth: the U.S. is providing food.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- quantumhobbit 10y agoI believe they tried something like that before by writing something like "from the US" on all the food. They just told the people that the US gave them the food because they were scared of North Korea and the food was some sort of tribute.
- lisper 10y agoYes, I know. That is why I would ask for a public announcement on NK TV with wording to be mutually agreed upon in advance, to avoid exactly that problem.
- gwbas1c 10y agoThere's probably plenty of ways to use this as an opportunity to weaken the regime. Perhaps even just meeting outsiders will help shatter the propaganda bubble?
- endswapper 10y agoThe headline and the conversation it provokes are part of the problem. The point should be that humanitarian efforts exist for the sole benefit of humanity. Once a humanitarian effort becomes leverage for a political, or military, or any other objective it ceases to be a humanitarian effort. I don't think we should be concerned with the regime until it proves it is a responsible actor domestically and in the global community. Demonstrating our humanity is the only way to constructively engage the people of North Korea. It's much more powerful to face the hate and vitriol in the propaganda of North Korean with something as seemingly irrational as humanitarian aid. What I mean is that the State's propaganda loses it's power, it loses the idea that is reasonable when we continue to help them despite nuclear threats, et al. Only then can the people of North Korea find their power and choose a path. I imagine, at some point, they will reach a tipping point like Egypt. Buying in to their provocations is simply taking the bait and allowing them to continue with business as usual.
- CWuestefeld 10y agoOnce a humanitarian effort becomes leverage But that was true from the start. I appears that NK makes humanitarian efforts a political issue, but basing resource allocations on the assumption that the rest of the world will bail them out. Thus, our aid to them is effectively allowing them to invest greater resources into weapons programs.
- jknoepfler 10y agoI don't think I'm better than any citizen of North Korea, and I have enormous sympathy for the people of South Korea who are prospering while their friends and relatives (such as they still have) may be suffering. That said, the North is a home for one of the deadliest ideological diseases the world has ever known. Democide by totalitarian governments with a "communist" flavor killed more people in the 20th century than every war combined. We should not send aid to the people of North Korea until North Korea changes internally. We should leave the door open to trade, to peace, to free exchange of ideas, and to offer support for democratization. We should make every effort to destabilize the current regime in North Korea (which is still in a state of war with us, lest we forget). Giving aid just helps stabilize the status quo, which is not an acceptable outcome.
- endswapper 10y agoHumanitarian aid is destabilizing when the status quo is defined by the State's propaganda of hate. At some point, and that may not be now, it begs the question: why should we hate those that are helping? To not help, to ignore their need, is the surest way to maintain the status quo. That would preserve the framework and justifications for the State's propaganda.
- hxegon 10y agoI'm a little disappointed in the US. We have the best case you could make for an ethical forced regime change by a foreign power, (can you consent to be governed when you are brainwashed and not consenting is punishable by imprisonment?) and we aren't on this? I'd love to get some alternate reality tv a la rick and morty to watch america world police kim jong un's face.
- woah 10y agoLook at how successful we've been at regime change in the last 15 years! Do you really want a war with Russia and China?
- hxegon 10y agoI think Russia and China would be happy to (eventually) have a potential new economically productive neighbor country, but I don't know that much about politics so... Either way though, the situation is already terrible. I don't think it could get much worse (assuming we could disable their nuclear capabilities before any kind of major military action). I'm not saying it's pretty, but it just doesn't look like we are making much progress through usual diplomatic channels.
- frr149 10y agoWhy not just form an international coalition, invade and free, once and for all, the Korean people from that horror? It's gotta be the most justified military intervention in History. Yes, besides a funny hairdo, the crazy in chief has a few nuclear fire crackers. Just destroy those installations before sending the troops.
- hxegon 10y agoThere's a lot of complex issues involved, but I have to agree. If ever there was a justified invasion, this has to be top 5 at least.
- hx87 10y agoIt's a worthy task, and the key to doing so is getting China on board. On one hand, NK is probably the most exasperating "ally" China has, but on the other hand, China really doesn't want the combination of refugees and US bases on its borders in the event the government collapses. So perhaps a deal where North Korea becomes a Chinese SAR for a period of 25-50 years (since China is much better prepared to absorb the cost than South Korea)?
- Just_A_NBR 10y agoGenerosity is the highest form of giving. The people in North Korea are in need. Providing the basics of food can empower and help many, and provide us with an opportunity for that kindness to be freely recognized, either directly or indirectly. If we needed something from them, the kindest thing they could do is give without expecting something in return. If they are our enemy, we will not win the day treating them as such when given the opportunity to be a friend.