17 ms·

Companies would benefit from helping introverts to thrive

292 points by tomaskazemekas 10y ago

SZJX 10y ago
This whole "spectrum" thing is nonsense. Classifying people in such a grossly simplified way is like dividing the brain into "left" and "right" which was only some eye-grabbing stunt which totally misses the essence of the issue. What matters in constructive work is the ability to present one's ideas clearly, coherently and convincingly, not the habit of hanging out with people and keeping your mouth open all day. I think somehow a lot of concepts get these two things mixed together. A lot of people are absolutely fantastic in communicating their ideas, engaging in conversations and contributing their unique insight in a manner that makes everybody else get what she's trying to convey in no time. However such people might not be the type who parties all day long outside of work, and might instead enjoy reading or creating something on her own while idle. I don't see the least bit of problem in that and I think those people will well succeed in business settings, in fact they can well achieve greater success than those who only talk and don't reflect. I'd even argue that every person who has achieved something must have spent a lot of time on her own, learning and reflecting upon various things, instead of wasting her time in trivial social activities all day long. Now, what we usually call "introverts" are people who can't express their thoughts well, who sometimes can't even pronounce words cleanly, loudly and with confidence when ideas are needed. They tend to be quiet at formal group settings and say nothing at all even though they might have already thought of something. That's really just a lack of ability (totally acquirable) instead of "personality trait" or whatsoever. The type of person I mentioned in the previous paragraph also don't necessarily enjoy talking all day long, but they make a hell of a talker when the time is right. So, differentiating people based on whether they "enjoy being together with others all the time" is just such a totally laughable and nonsensical concept. And to say people should "act like" an "extrovert" is just some other oversimplification BS. Act like a pro who can present ideas expertly, not a brat who only knows to party all day and crack irrelevant "jokes". What those real "introverts" need is indeed some help in getting themselves at least able to express their thoughts with clarity and communicate with others in a group setting. However, to say that successful CEOs etc. are such "introverts" is really a gross mischaracterization and something totally missing the core of the issue.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Now, what we usually call "introverts" are people who can't express their thoughts well, who sometimes can't even pronounce words cleanly, loudly and with confidence when ideas are needed. I don't know what you usually call "introverts", but, no, that's not what either I call -- nor what anyone I've ever encountered seems to call -- "introverts". In fact, the people I've seen described as introverts are usually quite good at expressing their thoughts well. OTOH, they range from being emotionally drained by to being psychologically incapable of engaging in many of the extended low-information-content schmoozing activities that are common team-building, networking, or obligatory (by social expectation if not outright mandate) team/company social events.
deleted 10y ago
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jbb555 10y ago
Training courses seem to be a place that they've increasingly made terrible in this way. I'm fine with useful training where they teach you some stuff, and let you have a go at it, and are available for questions. But no... these days they have to make it all "interactive". Instead of teaching stuff they have to stand there picking on people asking "what do you know about X", and then after a few hours of "teaching" you are "rewarded" by being forced to join a group of people for a group activity. No, it's not a reward, it's a few hours of hell. ugh, this is why I tend to avoid so called training these days. Why can't we just be given actual teaching and notes and not be forced to do awful group activities.
- puranjay 10y ago
  Most of these training courses aren't designed by educators. One of the first things my girlfriend learned when she started her teaching career was how different people learn differently. Some people, it appears, learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner. Businesses seem to forget these basic lessons in favor of feel-good "team work" nonsense
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - onion2k 10y ago
    One of the first things my girlfriend learned when she started her teaching career was how different people learn differently. Some people, it appears, learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner. Most studies have found that the idea people have different learning styles isn't actually true. People have a preference but it doesn't affect how much they learn. http://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-styles-is-one-of-the-greatest-neuroscience-myths/ http://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-style...
    - thr0waway1239 10y ago
      To the extent that the author of that book is correct - they talk about visual, auditory or kinesthetic, I don't really think it is the same learning style we are talking about. The GP says some people learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner (i.e. don't expect extroversion as a precondition for the learning environment you create).
achow 10y ago
> ...the best way to encourage creativity is to knock down office walls and to hold incessant meetings. Being part of office layout team in a Fortune 10 company I'm now aware that most of the time the motivation is cost. It is way cheaper by many order of magnitude to have an open plan office. Other cost related reasons are easy to manage space -can be expanded and scaled down in jiffy- cheaper HVAC installation and maintenance etc.
- Veen 10y ago
  > It is way cheaper by many order of magnitude to have an open plan office. It's even cheaper to let people work remotely from home, which is also perfect for introverts. I'm constantly surprised by how few companies have embraced remote work simply because of its cost-saving potential.
  - collyw 10y ago
    I imagine a lot of people would be more efficient working away from office distractions as well.
  - dqv 10y ago
    >I'm constantly surprised by how few companies have embraced remote work simply because of its cost-saving potential. Because it's only cheaper on paper. The risk is way too high for me to abuse the fact that there is no IT staff, there is no redundancy, and there is no one to make sure I'm on task. I can stay home from work because I don't have to go anywhere to work in the first place. I'm working in my fun place... which has the negative effect of making my fun place less fun and possibly making my work place less work. You can of course argue that someone should know they are going to be less productive as a remote worker, but most people _are_ going to accept the offer even if it is detrimental.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      > there is no one to make sure I'm on task In tech, literally every change we make is logged in a history with timestamps. If someone's output seems low, then it's straightforward how to quantify output in terms of quantity, difficulty, timeliness, etc. Of course, that requires managers that can actually evaluate the work product itself (code, docs, etc.).
jaggederest 10y ago
I feel like the focus on any particular personality trait is a little facile. Really, companies should be gaining understanding and helping all of their employees to do their best work regardless of which specific traits you're talking about.
nicolapede 10y ago
Working in investment banking here. I sincerely hope that tech companies will continue to thrive -- the reasoning being that at some point IB will be so much short of talents that it will have to adjust to working practices/policies more suitable for introverts.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  Wouldn't you expect, if tech kept draining employees out of banking, that it would disproportionately drain introverts away and leave banking more extraverted than before? To hear a lot of people tell it, the work of banking is largely in having and maintaining social relationships with your clients.
  - nicolapede 10y ago
    > Wouldn't you expect, if tech kept draining employees out of banking, that it would disproportionately drain introverts away and leave banking more extraverted than before? Sure, in fact my additional hope is that this being over-extroverted will have a negative impact on business. > To hear a lot of people tell it, the work of banking is largely in having and maintaining social relationships with your clients. Not only that, at least in IB case. It is also a lot about tech (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12443678&goto=news https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12443678&goto=news for example) and mathematical/statistical modelling.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  Not when you have Grads from good universities lining up round the block to work in the City or Wall Street
  - nickonline 10y ago
    Wall street isn't in the city?
    - madcaptenor 10y ago
pluma 10y ago
Meanwhile in tech being an introvert is lumped together with "poor social skills" and frowned upon in the name of diversity. I've actually heard conference speakers call out behaviours as toxic that are basically the defining character traits of introverts (not to mention people in the autism spectrum). Note that I'm not even talking about the shouty-sweary-abrasive behaviour people like Torvalds are being derided for but simply preferring to work alone rather than in a team.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Yes, but isn't that because it's the more extreme extroverts, who've risen to the speaking and managerial roles, doing the lumping? There's a big difference between being relatively quiet and lacking social skills. Unless you look at from the personality type that needs to fill every silence with any old rubbish.
- arpa 10y ago
  Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't have to have social skills. It just means that it's harder, more exhausting and basically you need time to recharge via some "me time". Of course, it's just my personal opinion and experience. As an introvert, i dislike crowds, big events, dancing and singing; It's challenging, but very beneficial to invest some of my energy into "being social". If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Believe me: I think I know my feelings pretty well. But I also claim that they are often so much different from the feelings other people have that this does not help me to empathize. Just to give one example: How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I have not found a name for this feeling in any psychology book that I have read. On the other hand grief (in the sense of the feeling that people feel when someone near dies; I hope this is the intended translation of the German word "Trauer" - I'm no English native speaker) is a feeling that I only know from literature and watching people - I can confidently say that I never felt such a feeling myself. Back to topic: I believe the step from "knowing your own feelings" to "empathy" assumes that your feelings are somehow related to the feelings other people feel. I think this bold assumption does not hold very strongly for me. Believe me: If I act on this assumption, chaos will happen. On the other hand if I apply, say, some maximum-likelihood estimation (to use a word from statistics, don't interpret the word "maximum-likelihood" too literally) on how another person might feel (which is often quite the opposite to how I feel and completely against my instincts and I would never like to be treated this way), at least less chaos will happen.
jondubois 10y ago
Very true. I'm an introvert but I have to force myself to act like an extrovert in order to move forward in my career... But I feel somewhat insincere doing that and it takes a lot of effort emotionally. I think this behaviour is necessary because the corporate environment cultivates a culture of insincerity and sometimes downright hypocrisy. We all want to feel good about ourselves - So we either: - Lie to ourselves or; - Accept the reality and only pretend to believe the lies (that's where the public façade comes in handy).
- RachelF 10y ago
  I think society is geared to rewarding the extroverts: You have to sell yourself, and BS you way to the top of the corporation or whatever group you're in. Marketing is more important than technology. Few groups actually reward introverts, who may be doing most of the real work.
  - csydas 10y ago
    As an introvert who works and has worked in an extrovert's role for nearly 10 years now, I'd advise not getting too caught up worrying over the distinction, and definitely don't buy into the stereotypes of either position. Just like not every extrovert is immediately likable, not every introvert is a smart and hard worker. I know you wrote "may", but I've just seen too many colleagues and too many of my employees fall into this trapping mindset, which can result in some really nasty work atmostpheres. The attitude one brings to a job should be appropriate for the work. There is truth that if you don't speak up, it's hard to hear you sometimes, but that doesn't mean the way you sell yourself is most important - you still need substance. I've watched as social charmers worked their way into my previous places of employment only to get shitcanned months later when it turns out you have to beat them with a stick to do even the simplest of tasks. I've also seen the same types of people and categorized them the same way, only to find out later that they were really doing tons of great things I just never knew about. This is more the manager/supervisor in me not wanting people to draw lines in the sand unnecessarily, but who you are is how you want to present yourself. I'm a shy guy by nature, and I know that at my last job my coworkers could never understand why I liked lunch alone or rarely went to company events, didn't buy into company pride, etc. But once I dug in and made an impact work-wise, it was made pretty clear that they couldn't imagine not having me around, even if I was quiet.
bitwize 10y ago
You may wish to do some research into why this is the case, and then -- work on your social skills, and your empathy. Hint: women, in particular, live in almost constant fear of their lives and their personal safety, in a way that most men do not. They simply do not know who among the men they interact with might try to rape them, possibly until it happens. As social beings, one of the things we do is subject our fellow humans to subtle tests of their trustworthiness. If they show signs of empathy, that increases our faith that they will not seek to actively harm us. Refusal to submit to the test is failure. It is interpreted, at a subconscious level, as meaning you have something to hide. So "playing the social game" becomes an essential business skill. Sperglords also have a great deal of difficulty with empathy, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they are shunned by society at large, especially shunned by women, and considered toxic in associations that hope to be supportive of female members.
- corecoder 10y ago
  > If they show signs of empathy, that increases our faith that they will not seek to actively harm us. True; unfortunately, this hampers empathetic people who have trouble expressing empathy and make life very nice for unempathetic people who are good at feigning empathy.
  - arpa 10y ago
    Great job at describing sociopaths, who, unsurprisingly, often end up at managerial positions.
- leereeves 10y ago
  > They simply do not know who among the men they interact with might try to rape them. That would be an incredibly sexist assumption, if women were actually doing that. Imagine a slightly different statement: > They simply do not know who among the black people they interact with might try to rob them. See the racism in that? Then you should see the sexism in your original statement.
  - bitwize 10y ago
timwaagh 10y ago
so yeah because of my supposedly flawed personality i will have 0 chances at promotion beyond just being a developer. and developers are not rewarded very well where i live. the logical conclusion is that i will have to become their competitor as soon as i can. which sadly benefits nobody as i could potentially do better with big-company resources behind me and the companies would do better without upstarts trying to take their profits.
- csydas 10y ago
  Or, an alternate and equally reasonable position is you can find out what your seniors feel are required assets for you to have and figure out either how to obtain them or, if you already have them, how to appropriately demonstrate that you do. Forgive me for being rude, but your response, even if meant to be tongue in cheek, comes off as petulant, a little arrogant, and not particularly well reasoned. Assuming you mean to say that you are not progressing in your career because you're an introvert, I would suggest maybe actually talk with your higher ups and figure out why you have not progressed. Being introverted is not incompatible with leadership or with management or with any higher level position. An equally logical position on why an introvert hasn't advanced is because they don't fulfill the requirements of higher positions. There's nothing inate about being inroverted that makes you suddenly incapable of more responsibility. However, if what your employer is looking for is incongruent with what you're offering, that's not a failure of the employer to recognize your worth, it's an incongruency with your wants and their needs. This is true of any business for any person, regardless of personality. That is, if advancement in a company means more managerial work or team management and so on, you need to demonstrate you can provide these services; these aren't matters you can just say "yes I do this", it has to be demonstrated. Lumping failure to advance under "it's because I'm introverted" without any other justification seems to be more of an excuse.
- Cthulhu_ 10y ago
  The trick there is to become invaluable; to be a specialist in a certain area (like security, database management, native mobile development, data science, AI, etc) and make yourself in demand. If you keep talking yourself down by saying "Yeah I know such-and-such but it doesn't matter because muh personality", then you will keep having no chance at promotion. Actually in the IT world, it's better to switch jobs than wait (or ask) for promotion. TL;DR: Be confident, know what you know, know what an employer needs, sell that.
hellofunk 10y ago
I think there are a greater percentage of introverts in the software development world than in the general population, and attempting to put developers into the same environments as many other corporate jobs just doesn't work very well. I work with some talented guys remotely, all who work from home and I'd casually judge them to all be more introverts than extroverts. The key I believe is to respect someone's ability to get work done without a lot of social interaction and judge them on how they meet deadlines on their own, the quality of the work, and let it go at that. If they can do this, leave them alone and let them thrive. If they can't, then it is possibly not a good fit for your company to have them onboard.
- realworldview 10y ago
  Why do you think that?
wundersoy 10y ago
But if your work helps you get past being so introvert, which ultimately can make you difficult for others to work with in a team. Isn't that a good thing?
- rimantas 10y ago
  No. Neither necessarily is "work in a team".
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  Should I have to get past being an introvert? It isn't a disorder that needs to be cured. Also I'm not difficult to work with in a group, I simply prefer to work alone. Introverts lose 'energy' in a group and gain it back when they are by themselves. Extroverts gain 'energy' in a group. That says nothing about how well you do in a group. I know plenty of extroverts who have toxic personalities and kill productivity in groups.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
elcct 10y ago
> Claude Mongeau, the former CEO of Canadian National Railway, for example, set himself the goal of acting like an extrovert five times a day. In any case, the majority of people are on a spectrum of introversion to extroversion. Probably my comparison is too extreme, but as an introvert myself I can see this as telling gay person to be straight five times a day.
- soft_dev_person 10y ago
  Then again, we act like straight people a lot.
  - Klockan 10y ago
    Are you implying that there are differences other than sexual preferences?
- nathanaldensr 10y ago
  I agree with your characterization. You will rarely, if ever, hear it worded the other way around: "As an extravert, I try and go find a quiet corner to think and avoid others five times a day." It seems to always be the introverts that must put aside who they are in favor of others.
  - Nav_Panel 10y ago
    This actually sounds an awful lot like the "mindfulness" trend.
vidarh 10y ago
I just got off a call discussing the problems of technical teams where introverts get thrown into the deep end by being promoted to team leads etc. often without any kind of support. I suffered through being in that position myself early in my career, and people under me suffered as a result, and I had no follow up or help whatsoever in terms of obtaining the skills to deal with it. It took a lot of time to recognise the problem and "fix it". It still saps me of energy to spend time actively reaching out to people, but I've learned strategies to work around it (e.g. setting appointments to talk to people so I can't get out of it without being rude prevents me from just indefinitely postponing it), and "compensate" by ensuring I allocate "quiet time" to recharge. There were also a lot of little things I had to learn. E.g. I eventually learned that simply walking around the office now and again and asking people how they were doing got people to report far higher satisfaction with my level of engagement, even if I spent less time actually responding to issues. My managers never engaged with me that way when I started leading teams (I once had a manager that didn't actually talk to me for about two years - I passed on status reports once a week and that was pretty much it), so I didn't either for a long time. It turned out to be a very "low touch" method of showing interest that didn't wear me down but gave very positive results. A lot of teams struggle with bad to non-existent training of people who get promoted into management positions, and that problem gets far worse with people whose "default" is to not spend a lot of time talking to people, and it puts a strain both on the team and the person put into that position that could be reduced very quickly with some basic training and some coaching. I actually occasionally take on contracts to do coaching for technology managers because I love helping people shortcut all the time I wasted on it when I first started managing teams.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Tech people still have a (accurate IME) stereotype of being anti-social, awkward, and poor communicators. Yet the career path is still set to go through management. A few of my bosses have been "upset" when I've declined management opportunities. I don't have those skills, nor do I want them! It's the finest example of the Peter Principle I can think of.
  - vidarh 10y ago
realworldview 10y ago
I would re-title the article, _Generalization, generalization and more generalizations_. Why, this is a typical space-filler article typical of consumer publications, most visible in the Daily Mail, to provoke criticism, rage, agreement but not much else. People don't always fit in the neat boxes so don't waste time reading such common and regurgitated content.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
I feel like this issue is not introversion. I am an extreme introvert. Socializing is extremely tiring for me. I used to be extremely anti-social and had social phobias. I was bad at socializing and frankly still not great at it. The issue could be boiled down to a lack of self confidence. There are lots of other things that were part of it, but mostly explained by self confidence. I worked (and am still working) through this and I am tremendously better than I was. My coworkers argued that I wasn't introverted when I described myself as such once. I say all this to make the point: the real issue is that some people are poor leaders and have poor social awareness. Leadership is less natural for introverts but the nature of leadership isn't any different for them because of that introversion. Introverts need to be able to take charge of their own lives and their own success as a leader. Employers shouldn't need to provide quiet spaces for them. They should make their own quiet space. If you're unable to do that at your job for whatever reason (it's as simple as sitting in your car for a 15 minute break) then you need to move to a different environment if you have the expectation of being a successful leader.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  I can appreciate a lot of what you're saying. Self-advocacy (aka being assertive, etc) is hands down the best way to get anything out of life. However, a lot of what people are talking about here is not just the absence of provided quiet places or any other thing. It's the active resistance to building a workspace that can facilitate a variety of workers, instead of the assumed extrovert everyone wants you to be.
callesgg 10y ago
I think it seams quite crazy to group everyone like that introvert vs extrovert.
- motxilo 10y ago
  In the article, it mentions "In any case, the majority of people are on a spectrum of introversion to extroversion.".
jokoon 10y ago
I remember seeing many posts of /r/introvert who were just people complaining about introverts and introversion in general. I also remember some school director warning me about my behavior and telling me that humans are a social species. The Susan McCain book really opened my eyes, in the end, to me it really seems to be a matter of values. It's crazy because this issue makes me pretty angry. I failed 2 degrees because the score coefficients in teamwork projects were pretty high, not to mention being targeted and harassed in school because you're calm and silent most of the time. Also I listened to some NPR podcast who talked about personality being a myth. Basically we moved from recognizing that race and gender are bad biases, but we have new ones now.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  I skipped the McCain book out of apprehension that it would basically be a festival of self-congratulation for introverts. Introverts are smarter, handsomer, cooler, and just all around better, don't you think my introverted reader? Was it better than that?
  - taeric 10y ago
    I have the same apprehension. It is particularly annoying to see all of the bs scotsman debates on introverts. Seems everyone I meet nowdays thinks they are "really an introvert."
  - motxilo 10y ago
    Yes, way better and using a humble tone, e.g. "Introverts are not smarter than extroverts. According to IQ scores, the two types are equally intelligent. And on many kinds of tasks, particularly those performed under time or social pressure or involving multitasking, extroverts do better."
- wyager 10y ago
  Personally, I think part of the purpose of a degree is to testify that one can plausibly function in the workplace. Part of that includes being able to interact socially and work in groups. I dislike group projects because I feel like there are huge efficiency losses to coordination that usually outweigh the benefit of more people working. However, I respect their utility as a way of testing and improving one's capability for teamwork.
pandemicsyn 10y ago
I wrote about the "Care and feeding of your introvert engineering leader" not too long ago [0] tl;dr Extroverted leadership teams always seem to try and set goal's for introverts that aims to help get them "out of their shell" or fake being an extrovert. But you need to stop trying to get me to fake being an extrovert and leverage my actual skill's instead. "Traditional" Org's like that still have a really hard time leveraging introverted leaders effectively. Its super frustrating. [0] https://medium.com/@pandemicsyn/on-care-feeding-of-your-introvert-leader-1f406c3c5064#.kfxd95w7x https://medium.com/@pandemicsyn/on-care-feeding-of-your-intr...
pasbesoin 10y ago
In multiple companies, I was repeatedly cited and complimented for solving problems and carrying workloads that others couldn't. I also was no wallflower, networking -- on my own initiative and maintenance -- with people throughout these large organizations spanning multiple countries. In those same workplaces, I was met with a bureacratic, political, and not infrequently personal wall of rejection when I requested a quieter workplace. I was raised to "pay my dues." My advice to the current generation: There's no such thing, particularly with respect to introversion and/or environmental differences. If they are not already respecting you, get out. Take it from Mr. Burnout, here. P.S. The current "introvert" business press is just the latest round of "mind the gap" cargo cult management. If organizations were really on board with understanding and practicing some of what's being written -- well, too late for me, but at least "hurrah" for future generations. But... I severely doubt it. Same old bullies, new clothes. (And who is going to be the first to get those performance enhancing offices, do you thing?) So, I repeat myself: If they are not already doing it, and you identify with the described population, GET OUT!
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292 points by tomaskazemekas 10y ago

SZJX 10y ago

This whole "spectrum" thing is nonsense. Classifying people in such a grossly simplified way is like dividing the brain into "left" and "right" which was only some eye-grabbing stunt which totally misses the essence of the issue. What matters in constructive work is the ability to present one's ideas clearly, coherently and convincingly, not the habit of hanging out with people and keeping your mouth open all day. I think somehow a lot of concepts get these two things mixed together. A lot of people are absolutely fantastic in communicating their ideas, engaging in conversations and contributing their unique insight in a manner that makes everybody else get what she's trying to convey in no time. However such people might not be the type who parties all day long outside of work, and might instead enjoy reading or creating something on her own while idle. I don't see the least bit of problem in that and I think those people will well succeed in business settings, in fact they can well achieve greater success than those who only talk and don't reflect. I'd even argue that every person who has achieved something must have spent a lot of time on her own, learning and reflecting upon various things, instead of wasting her time in trivial social activities all day long. Now, what we usually call "introverts" are people who can't express their thoughts well, who sometimes can't even pronounce words cleanly, loudly and with confidence when ideas are needed. They tend to be quiet at formal group settings and say nothing at all even though they might have already thought of something. That's really just a lack of ability (totally acquirable) instead of "personality trait" or whatsoever. The type of person I mentioned in the previous paragraph also don't necessarily enjoy talking all day long, but they make a hell of a talker when the time is right. So, differentiating people based on whether they "enjoy being together with others all the time" is just such a totally laughable and nonsensical concept. And to say people should "act like" an "extrovert" is just some other oversimplification BS. Act like a pro who can present ideas expertly, not a brat who only knows to party all day and crack irrelevant "jokes". What those real "introverts" need is indeed some help in getting themselves at least able to express their thoughts with clarity and communicate with others in a group setting. However, to say that successful CEOs etc. are such "introverts" is really a gross mischaracterization and something totally missing the core of the issue.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Now, what we usually call "introverts" are people who can't express their thoughts well, who sometimes can't even pronounce words cleanly, loudly and with confidence when ideas are needed. I don't know what you usually call "introverts", but, no, that's not what either I call -- nor what anyone I've ever encountered seems to call -- "introverts". In fact, the people I've seen described as introverts are usually quite good at expressing their thoughts well. OTOH, they range from being emotionally drained by to being psychologically incapable of engaging in many of the extended low-information-content schmoozing activities that are common team-building, networking, or obligatory (by social expectation if not outright mandate) team/company social events.

deleted 10y ago

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jbb555 10y ago

Training courses seem to be a place that they've increasingly made terrible in this way. I'm fine with useful training where they teach you some stuff, and let you have a go at it, and are available for questions. But no... these days they have to make it all "interactive". Instead of teaching stuff they have to stand there picking on people asking "what do you know about X", and then after a few hours of "teaching" you are "rewarded" by being forced to join a group of people for a group activity. No, it's not a reward, it's a few hours of hell. ugh, this is why I tend to avoid so called training these days. Why can't we just be given actual teaching and notes and not be forced to do awful group activities.

puranjay 10y ago
Most of these training courses aren't designed by educators. One of the first things my girlfriend learned when she started her teaching career was how different people learn differently. Some people, it appears, learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner. Businesses seem to forget these basic lessons in favor of feel-good "team work" nonsense
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- onion2k 10y ago
  One of the first things my girlfriend learned when she started her teaching career was how different people learn differently. Some people, it appears, learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner. Most studies have found that the idea people have different learning styles isn't actually true. People have a preference but it doesn't affect how much they learn. http://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-styles-is-one-of-the-greatest-neuroscience-myths/ http://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-style...
  - thr0waway1239 10y ago
    To the extent that the author of that book is correct - they talk about visual, auditory or kinesthetic, I don't really think it is the same learning style we are talking about. The GP says some people learn better if you just hand them a book and let them read it in their own corner (i.e. don't expect extroversion as a precondition for the learning environment you create).

achow 10y ago

> ...the best way to encourage creativity is to knock down office walls and to hold incessant meetings. Being part of office layout team in a Fortune 10 company I'm now aware that most of the time the motivation is cost. It is way cheaper by many order of magnitude to have an open plan office. Other cost related reasons are easy to manage space -can be expanded and scaled down in jiffy- cheaper HVAC installation and maintenance etc.

Veen 10y ago
> It is way cheaper by many order of magnitude to have an open plan office. It's even cheaper to let people work remotely from home, which is also perfect for introverts. I'm constantly surprised by how few companies have embraced remote work simply because of its cost-saving potential.
- collyw 10y ago
  I imagine a lot of people would be more efficient working away from office distractions as well.
- dqv 10y ago
  >I'm constantly surprised by how few companies have embraced remote work simply because of its cost-saving potential. Because it's only cheaper on paper. The risk is way too high for me to abuse the fact that there is no IT staff, there is no redundancy, and there is no one to make sure I'm on task. I can stay home from work because I don't have to go anywhere to work in the first place. I'm working in my fun place... which has the negative effect of making my fun place less fun and possibly making my work place less work. You can of course argue that someone should know they are going to be less productive as a remote worker, but most people _are_ going to accept the offer even if it is detrimental.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > there is no one to make sure I'm on task In tech, literally every change we make is logged in a history with timestamps. If someone's output seems low, then it's straightforward how to quantify output in terms of quantity, difficulty, timeliness, etc. Of course, that requires managers that can actually evaluate the work product itself (code, docs, etc.).

jaggederest 10y ago

I feel like the focus on any particular personality trait is a little facile. Really, companies should be gaining understanding and helping all of their employees to do their best work regardless of which specific traits you're talking about.

nicolapede 10y ago

Working in investment banking here. I sincerely hope that tech companies will continue to thrive -- the reasoning being that at some point IB will be so much short of talents that it will have to adjust to working practices/policies more suitable for introverts.

thaumasiotes 10y ago
Wouldn't you expect, if tech kept draining employees out of banking, that it would disproportionately drain introverts away and leave banking more extraverted than before? To hear a lot of people tell it, the work of banking is largely in having and maintaining social relationships with your clients.
- nicolapede 10y ago
  > Wouldn't you expect, if tech kept draining employees out of banking, that it would disproportionately drain introverts away and leave banking more extraverted than before? Sure, in fact my additional hope is that this being over-extroverted will have a negative impact on business. > To hear a lot of people tell it, the work of banking is largely in having and maintaining social relationships with your clients. Not only that, at least in IB case. It is also a lot about tech (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12443678&goto=news https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12443678&goto=news for example) and mathematical/statistical modelling.
lostboys67 10y ago
Not when you have Grads from good universities lining up round the block to work in the City or Wall Street
- nickonline 10y ago
  Wall street isn't in the city?
  - madcaptenor 10y ago

pluma 10y ago

Meanwhile in tech being an introvert is lumped together with "poor social skills" and frowned upon in the name of diversity. I've actually heard conference speakers call out behaviours as toxic that are basically the defining character traits of introverts (not to mention people in the autism spectrum). Note that I'm not even talking about the shouty-sweary-abrasive behaviour people like Torvalds are being derided for but simply preferring to work alone rather than in a team.

anexprogrammer 10y ago
Yes, but isn't that because it's the more extreme extroverts, who've risen to the speaking and managerial roles, doing the lumping? There's a big difference between being relatively quiet and lacking social skills. Unless you look at from the personality type that needs to fill every silence with any old rubbish.
arpa 10y ago
Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't have to have social skills. It just means that it's harder, more exhausting and basically you need time to recharge via some "me time". Of course, it's just my personal opinion and experience. As an introvert, i dislike crowds, big events, dancing and singing; It's challenging, but very beneficial to invest some of my energy into "being social". If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Believe me: I think I know my feelings pretty well. But I also claim that they are often so much different from the feelings other people have that this does not help me to empathize. Just to give one example: How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I have not found a name for this feeling in any psychology book that I have read. On the other hand grief (in the sense of the feeling that people feel when someone near dies; I hope this is the intended translation of the German word "Trauer" - I'm no English native speaker) is a feeling that I only know from literature and watching people - I can confidently say that I never felt such a feeling myself. Back to topic: I believe the step from "knowing your own feelings" to "empathy" assumes that your feelings are somehow related to the feelings other people feel. I think this bold assumption does not hold very strongly for me. Believe me: If I act on this assumption, chaos will happen. On the other hand if I apply, say, some maximum-likelihood estimation (to use a word from statistics, don't interpret the word "maximum-likelihood" too literally) on how another person might feel (which is often quite the opposite to how I feel and completely against my instincts and I would never like to be treated this way), at least less chaos will happen.

jondubois 10y ago

Very true. I'm an introvert but I have to force myself to act like an extrovert in order to move forward in my career... But I feel somewhat insincere doing that and it takes a lot of effort emotionally. I think this behaviour is necessary because the corporate environment cultivates a culture of insincerity and sometimes downright hypocrisy. We all want to feel good about ourselves - So we either: - Lie to ourselves or; - Accept the reality and only pretend to believe the lies (that's where the public façade comes in handy).

RachelF 10y ago
I think society is geared to rewarding the extroverts: You have to sell yourself, and BS you way to the top of the corporation or whatever group you're in. Marketing is more important than technology. Few groups actually reward introverts, who may be doing most of the real work.
- csydas 10y ago
  As an introvert who works and has worked in an extrovert's role for nearly 10 years now, I'd advise not getting too caught up worrying over the distinction, and definitely don't buy into the stereotypes of either position. Just like not every extrovert is immediately likable, not every introvert is a smart and hard worker. I know you wrote "may", but I've just seen too many colleagues and too many of my employees fall into this trapping mindset, which can result in some really nasty work atmostpheres. The attitude one brings to a job should be appropriate for the work. There is truth that if you don't speak up, it's hard to hear you sometimes, but that doesn't mean the way you sell yourself is most important - you still need substance. I've watched as social charmers worked their way into my previous places of employment only to get shitcanned months later when it turns out you have to beat them with a stick to do even the simplest of tasks. I've also seen the same types of people and categorized them the same way, only to find out later that they were really doing tons of great things I just never knew about. This is more the manager/supervisor in me not wanting people to draw lines in the sand unnecessarily, but who you are is how you want to present yourself. I'm a shy guy by nature, and I know that at my last job my coworkers could never understand why I liked lunch alone or rarely went to company events, didn't buy into company pride, etc. But once I dug in and made an impact work-wise, it was made pretty clear that they couldn't imagine not having me around, even if I was quiet.

bitwize 10y ago

You may wish to do some research into why this is the case, and then -- work on your social skills, and your empathy. Hint: women, in particular, live in almost constant fear of their lives and their personal safety, in a way that most men do not. They simply do not know who among the men they interact with might try to rape them, possibly until it happens. As social beings, one of the things we do is subject our fellow humans to subtle tests of their trustworthiness. If they show signs of empathy, that increases our faith that they will not seek to actively harm us. Refusal to submit to the test is failure. It is interpreted, at a subconscious level, as meaning you have something to hide. So "playing the social game" becomes an essential business skill. Sperglords also have a great deal of difficulty with empathy, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they are shunned by society at large, especially shunned by women, and considered toxic in associations that hope to be supportive of female members.

corecoder 10y ago
> If they show signs of empathy, that increases our faith that they will not seek to actively harm us. True; unfortunately, this hampers empathetic people who have trouble expressing empathy and make life very nice for unempathetic people who are good at feigning empathy.
- arpa 10y ago
  Great job at describing sociopaths, who, unsurprisingly, often end up at managerial positions.
leereeves 10y ago
> They simply do not know who among the men they interact with might try to rape them. That would be an incredibly sexist assumption, if women were actually doing that. Imagine a slightly different statement: > They simply do not know who among the black people they interact with might try to rob them. See the racism in that? Then you should see the sexism in your original statement.
- bitwize 10y ago

timwaagh 10y ago

so yeah because of my supposedly flawed personality i will have 0 chances at promotion beyond just being a developer. and developers are not rewarded very well where i live. the logical conclusion is that i will have to become their competitor as soon as i can. which sadly benefits nobody as i could potentially do better with big-company resources behind me and the companies would do better without upstarts trying to take their profits.

csydas 10y ago
Or, an alternate and equally reasonable position is you can find out what your seniors feel are required assets for you to have and figure out either how to obtain them or, if you already have them, how to appropriately demonstrate that you do. Forgive me for being rude, but your response, even if meant to be tongue in cheek, comes off as petulant, a little arrogant, and not particularly well reasoned. Assuming you mean to say that you are not progressing in your career because you're an introvert, I would suggest maybe actually talk with your higher ups and figure out why you have not progressed. Being introverted is not incompatible with leadership or with management or with any higher level position. An equally logical position on why an introvert hasn't advanced is because they don't fulfill the requirements of higher positions. There's nothing inate about being inroverted that makes you suddenly incapable of more responsibility. However, if what your employer is looking for is incongruent with what you're offering, that's not a failure of the employer to recognize your worth, it's an incongruency with your wants and their needs. This is true of any business for any person, regardless of personality. That is, if advancement in a company means more managerial work or team management and so on, you need to demonstrate you can provide these services; these aren't matters you can just say "yes I do this", it has to be demonstrated. Lumping failure to advance under "it's because I'm introverted" without any other justification seems to be more of an excuse.
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
The trick there is to become invaluable; to be a specialist in a certain area (like security, database management, native mobile development, data science, AI, etc) and make yourself in demand. If you keep talking yourself down by saying "Yeah I know such-and-such but it doesn't matter because muh personality", then you will keep having no chance at promotion. Actually in the IT world, it's better to switch jobs than wait (or ask) for promotion. TL;DR: Be confident, know what you know, know what an employer needs, sell that.

hellofunk 10y ago

I think there are a greater percentage of introverts in the software development world than in the general population, and attempting to put developers into the same environments as many other corporate jobs just doesn't work very well. I work with some talented guys remotely, all who work from home and I'd casually judge them to all be more introverts than extroverts. The key I believe is to respect someone's ability to get work done without a lot of social interaction and judge them on how they meet deadlines on their own, the quality of the work, and let it go at that. If they can do this, leave them alone and let them thrive. If they can't, then it is possibly not a good fit for your company to have them onboard.

realworldview 10y ago
Why do you think that?

wundersoy 10y ago

But if your work helps you get past being so introvert, which ultimately can make you difficult for others to work with in a team. Isn't that a good thing?

rimantas 10y ago
No. Neither necessarily is "work in a team".
quantumhobbit 10y ago
Should I have to get past being an introvert? It isn't a disorder that needs to be cured. Also I'm not difficult to work with in a group, I simply prefer to work alone. Introverts lose 'energy' in a group and gain it back when they are by themselves. Extroverts gain 'energy' in a group. That says nothing about how well you do in a group. I know plenty of extroverts who have toxic personalities and kill productivity in groups.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

elcct 10y ago

> Claude Mongeau, the former CEO of Canadian National Railway, for example, set himself the goal of acting like an extrovert five times a day. In any case, the majority of people are on a spectrum of introversion to extroversion. Probably my comparison is too extreme, but as an introvert myself I can see this as telling gay person to be straight five times a day.

soft_dev_person 10y ago
Then again, we act like straight people a lot.
- Klockan 10y ago
  Are you implying that there are differences other than sexual preferences?
nathanaldensr 10y ago
I agree with your characterization. You will rarely, if ever, hear it worded the other way around: "As an extravert, I try and go find a quiet corner to think and avoid others five times a day." It seems to always be the introverts that must put aside who they are in favor of others.
- Nav_Panel 10y ago
  This actually sounds an awful lot like the "mindfulness" trend.

vidarh 10y ago

I just got off a call discussing the problems of technical teams where introverts get thrown into the deep end by being promoted to team leads etc. often without any kind of support. I suffered through being in that position myself early in my career, and people under me suffered as a result, and I had no follow up or help whatsoever in terms of obtaining the skills to deal with it. It took a lot of time to recognise the problem and "fix it". It still saps me of energy to spend time actively reaching out to people, but I've learned strategies to work around it (e.g. setting appointments to talk to people so I can't get out of it without being rude prevents me from just indefinitely postponing it), and "compensate" by ensuring I allocate "quiet time" to recharge. There were also a lot of little things I had to learn. E.g. I eventually learned that simply walking around the office now and again and asking people how they were doing got people to report far higher satisfaction with my level of engagement, even if I spent less time actually responding to issues. My managers never engaged with me that way when I started leading teams (I once had a manager that didn't actually talk to me for about two years - I passed on status reports once a week and that was pretty much it), so I didn't either for a long time. It turned out to be a very "low touch" method of showing interest that didn't wear me down but gave very positive results. A lot of teams struggle with bad to non-existent training of people who get promoted into management positions, and that problem gets far worse with people whose "default" is to not spend a lot of time talking to people, and it puts a strain both on the team and the person put into that position that could be reduced very quickly with some basic training and some coaching. I actually occasionally take on contracts to do coaching for technology managers because I love helping people shortcut all the time I wasted on it when I first started managing teams.

CaptSpify 10y ago
Tech people still have a (accurate IME) stereotype of being anti-social, awkward, and poor communicators. Yet the career path is still set to go through management. A few of my bosses have been "upset" when I've declined management opportunities. I don't have those skills, nor do I want them! It's the finest example of the Peter Principle I can think of.
- vidarh 10y ago

realworldview 10y ago

I would re-title the article, _Generalization, generalization and more generalizations_. Why, this is a typical space-filler article typical of consumer publications, most visible in the Daily Mail, to provoke criticism, rage, agreement but not much else. People don't always fit in the neat boxes so don't waste time reading such common and regurgitated content.

whamlastxmas 10y ago

I feel like this issue is not introversion. I am an extreme introvert. Socializing is extremely tiring for me. I used to be extremely anti-social and had social phobias. I was bad at socializing and frankly still not great at it. The issue could be boiled down to a lack of self confidence. There are lots of other things that were part of it, but mostly explained by self confidence. I worked (and am still working) through this and I am tremendously better than I was. My coworkers argued that I wasn't introverted when I described myself as such once. I say all this to make the point: the real issue is that some people are poor leaders and have poor social awareness. Leadership is less natural for introverts but the nature of leadership isn't any different for them because of that introversion. Introverts need to be able to take charge of their own lives and their own success as a leader. Employers shouldn't need to provide quiet spaces for them. They should make their own quiet space. If you're unable to do that at your job for whatever reason (it's as simple as sitting in your car for a 15 minute break) then you need to move to a different environment if you have the expectation of being a successful leader.

noobiemcfoob 10y ago
I can appreciate a lot of what you're saying. Self-advocacy (aka being assertive, etc) is hands down the best way to get anything out of life. However, a lot of what people are talking about here is not just the absence of provided quiet places or any other thing. It's the active resistance to building a workspace that can facilitate a variety of workers, instead of the assumed extrovert everyone wants you to be.

callesgg 10y ago

I think it seams quite crazy to group everyone like that introvert vs extrovert.

motxilo 10y ago
In the article, it mentions "In any case, the majority of people are on a spectrum of introversion to extroversion.".

jokoon 10y ago

I remember seeing many posts of /r/introvert who were just people complaining about introverts and introversion in general. I also remember some school director warning me about my behavior and telling me that humans are a social species. The Susan McCain book really opened my eyes, in the end, to me it really seems to be a matter of values. It's crazy because this issue makes me pretty angry. I failed 2 degrees because the score coefficients in teamwork projects were pretty high, not to mention being targeted and harassed in school because you're calm and silent most of the time. Also I listened to some NPR podcast who talked about personality being a myth. Basically we moved from recognizing that race and gender are bad biases, but we have new ones now.

sliverstorm 10y ago
I skipped the McCain book out of apprehension that it would basically be a festival of self-congratulation for introverts. Introverts are smarter, handsomer, cooler, and just all around better, don't you think my introverted reader? Was it better than that?
- taeric 10y ago
  I have the same apprehension. It is particularly annoying to see all of the bs scotsman debates on introverts. Seems everyone I meet nowdays thinks they are "really an introvert."
- motxilo 10y ago
  Yes, way better and using a humble tone, e.g. "Introverts are not smarter than extroverts. According to IQ scores, the two types are equally intelligent. And on many kinds of tasks, particularly those performed under time or social pressure or involving multitasking, extroverts do better."
wyager 10y ago
Personally, I think part of the purpose of a degree is to testify that one can plausibly function in the workplace. Part of that includes being able to interact socially and work in groups. I dislike group projects because I feel like there are huge efficiency losses to coordination that usually outweigh the benefit of more people working. However, I respect their utility as a way of testing and improving one's capability for teamwork.

pandemicsyn 10y ago

I wrote about the "Care and feeding of your introvert engineering leader" not too long ago [0] tl;dr Extroverted leadership teams always seem to try and set goal's for introverts that aims to help get them "out of their shell" or fake being an extrovert. But you need to stop trying to get me to fake being an extrovert and leverage my actual skill's instead. "Traditional" Org's like that still have a really hard time leveraging introverted leaders effectively. Its super frustrating. [0] https://medium.com/@pandemicsyn/on-care-feeding-of-your-introvert-leader-1f406c3c5064#.kfxd95w7x https://medium.com/@pandemicsyn/on-care-feeding-of-your-intr...

pasbesoin 10y ago

In multiple companies, I was repeatedly cited and complimented for solving problems and carrying workloads that others couldn't. I also was no wallflower, networking -- on my own initiative and maintenance -- with people throughout these large organizations spanning multiple countries. In those same workplaces, I was met with a bureacratic, political, and not infrequently personal wall of rejection when I requested a quieter workplace. I was raised to "pay my dues." My advice to the current generation: There's no such thing, particularly with respect to introversion and/or environmental differences. If they are not already respecting you, get out. Take it from Mr. Burnout, here. P.S. The current "introvert" business press is just the latest round of "mind the gap" cargo cult management. If organizations were really on board with understanding and practicing some of what's being written -- well, too late for me, but at least "hurrah" for future generations. But... I severely doubt it. Same old bullies, new clothes. (And who is going to be the first to get those performance enhancing offices, do you thing?) So, I repeat myself: If they are not already doing it, and you identify with the described population, GET OUT!

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