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It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

• jwr 10y ago
  This is idiotic. People over 40 trade one set of skills for another (source: I'm over 40). You lose short-term memory, can't juggle too many things simultaneously, and aren't always up to date on every latest fad. But what you gain is fantastically valuable: intuition, abstract thinking, systems thinking, ability to detect patterns in large systems, ability to notice that certain problems have been solved in a different field, and lots more. As I grow older, I notice these changes, and while I do regret not being able to remember IP addresses after switching to a different window (get a larger monitor, or just copy&paste), I am very happy with the overall shift.
  • SubiculumCode 10y ago
    im sure its all about 40 year olds not wanting to work 70+ hour weeks all the time.
    • virmundi 10y ago
      Don't forget that they will probably command a higher wage too. And they will probably take time off for family since they have one.
  • stcredzero 10y ago
    intuition, abstract thinking, systems thinking, ability to detect patterns in large systems, ability to notice that certain problems have been solved in a different field, and lots more. Basically, you become a pattern matching database of non-obvious cost/benefit trade-offs.
    • tetrep 10y ago
      > Basically, you become a pattern matching database of non-obvious cost/benefit trade-offs. What some might call "experience." What makes problem solving skills valuable is the ability for the wielder to pattern match effectively. The more problem patterns you can positively match to solution patterns, the more valuable your experience. To a lesser extent, simply being able to identify problem patterns is also very valuable, as if you can avoid the creation of a problem it doesn't matter if you know a solution to it (I don't know how to escape a black hole, so I generally avoid them when traveling in space).
  • matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    All of those things are great, but you're assuming your manager and peers will value them like you do. I see this type of thinking applied to an issue in a way that results in people becoming increasingly irritated. Silicon Valley wants to hear "yes yes yes", not reason why you think XYZ solution won't work.
    • seanmcdirmid 10y ago
      Exactly: the ability to detect bullshit more quickly is unfortunately an ability not appreciated by many companies. It isn't just SV that has this problem. Those that tend to thrive in these environments past 40 are those who have instead learned play the imperfect system aggressively for their own benefit.
      • matt_wulfeck 10y ago
        Along with that, I think an important value is just not taking wrong ideas personally. So some junior engineer wants to run off and do something that might cause you a head ache. Let them do it and learn from it. Your goal in life can't be to minimize everything that causes pain.
        • seanmcdirmid 10y ago
          Oh, sure, but I'm not referring to that. It is more likely bullshit from upper management, from even older people...who lost touch with reality long ago.
    • gopalv 10y ago
      > All of those things are great, but you're assuming your manager and peers will value you them. The crucial transition is turning yourself into a senior engineer - someone who acts as a force multiplier in your organization (a possibly big organization). The valley problem with that transition is that a lot of value is left to the junior developer due to the startup ecosystem - the engineer who writes the first prototype, shoddily for a demo without worrying about possible future problems. The senior developer is left out in a plateau, if they can't switch back to core developer mode (build demo, get funding, hustle) and back, which is a not a skill issue, but more economical. There's the risk that the switch to a lower pay (for equity, hopefully) affects your next job offer in a BigCo if the idea does not pan out (& most of them don't). The reality of being hired in a Startup is that founders don't like people who aren't "all in". Once you take out "being employee #5" at the startup from the equation, the best part of Bay Area is gone. There lies only one path back in and that's building your own, except there the VCs get to actually pick on your health as a possible risk factor before handing you some $$$.
  • djb_hackernews 10y ago
    Did you read the article? One of the points was employers don't value those skills and traits. They value youth and naivete.
    • nine_k 10y ago
      Avoid such an employer in any case. With an attitude like that, they are not likely to build a great product, or win users' trust. Additionally, if you're young and naive, you'll be likely taken advantage of. Why else naivete might be desirable in a business setting?
  • angryasian 10y ago
    >intuition, abstract thinking, systems thinking, ability to detect patterns in large systems, ability to notice that certain problems have been solved in a different field, and lots more. Software tech is the only area that I know of that doesn't care what you've done in the past or have experienced. All that matters is what stupid algorithm you can figure out on a white board in the language they use.
• kchoudhu 10y ago
  Take the cash and run. Do you really want to be herding man-children when you are 40?
• anexprogrammer 10y ago
  It’s Tough Being Over 40 in tech, anywhere. I understand only some of why ageism is more rife in tech than other fields. But even in young app companies, with young founders, some experience of software engineering or complementary fields gained through experience can be useful. Personally I prefer a relatively young environment - I don't like large company formality and I enjoy the atmosphere of startups and app companies. But I have increasingly few contacts in the right places for an in... It's not like we're all "old" like our parents, grandparents were from 45 onwards, or that we're all increasingly irrelevant mainframe COBOL programmers. We aren't all set in our ways like was more common in previous generations - but we're not in a job for life so that's expected, surely. We're not expecting to be dead at 70 either. I hope I haven't "grown up" even then!
  • 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
    > It’s Tough Being Over 40 in tech, anywhere. I think it was more tech in 70s when they wore lab coats and did new things. Now it's more of a popularity thing or a way to extract gold.
• beatpanda 10y ago
  We should all be embarrassed by the working conditions and biases in our industry. It doesn't have to be this way, but we all keep playing along.
  • meddlepal 10y ago
    The rampant ageism in the industry is a real problem but everyone is focused on gender equality in tech right now. I really think both issues need serious attention.
    • dmead 10y ago
      ageism is going to be an obvious cost cutting measure soon.
    • FilterSweep 10y ago
      The chief problem with ageism is that it cuts across both genders - young people, looking for that first job post-graduation, are willing to take less money.
      • thenewwazoo 10y ago
        Interestingly, the next-order analysis of the problem you're discussing is called "intersectionality"; i.e. what are the systemic implications of being >40 and female? Given the relative demographic sizes, one can argue for or against attacking one or another problem (ageism or sexism) first, given the expected improvement to the population at large (essentially, the utilitarian argument). As much as techie types like to deride and dismiss sociological analytical techniques as being pseudoscience, there is a lot to be learned from them when attempting to intelligently discuss the (our) job market.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • Apocryphon 10y ago
    The seemingly high salaries in SV don't seem quite so excessive once paired with the long hours and exorbitant rents.
• tn13 10y ago
  Well it might change a lot as suddenly number of coders in their 40s goes up.
  • jganetsk 10y ago
    Do you have any data demonstrating this will happen?
    • sosuke 10y ago
      I guess they assume, like I do, that the current set of coders will continue to age. Will the current 20 year old coders shun 40 year old candidates in 20 years?
      • jganetsk 10y ago
        Current set of coders will continue to age, but they may also stop identifying as coders. Maybe because of ageism.
    • ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      Is the software development industry not bigger than it was twenty years ago? Developers still age. Ergo, as development as an industry grows, at a delayed rate, the number of aging developers will also grow.
      • jganetsk 10y ago
        That assumes they remain being developers as they age.
        • ocdtrekkie 10y ago
          I suppose, but the cost of a career switch to a job that is similar or greater in pay is quite high. What do you think is the likely place a developer who is 25 today will be in 20 years?
    • 10y ago
• 6stringmerc 10y ago
  "I had it good and now I don't have it good and I don't know what to do about it" is a fairly formulaic structure for a human interest story, and while I really loathe human suffering, it's also hard for me to sympathise with the subjects in stories such as this one. >“If you’ve worked at a large company for 10 years and get laid off, chances are your skills are six generations behind,” says Jonathan Nelson, chief executive officer of the Valley social network Hackers/Founders, which organizes meetups for startup developers. 10 years? To quote the character Samir from the film Office Space "It would be nice to have that kind of job security." I've grown up in a US workforce where staying in the same job for more than 2 years is essentially taking a pay-cut because raises / bonuses don't keep up with real-world inflation (milk & brisket, for instance). To further belabor my point, I joined the work force during a Recession, and statistics indicate my lifetime take-home (salary, benefits, etc) will be significantly lower than...well, what these folks enjoyed during their prime earning years. I won't even have a decent interest rate environment for my savings to grow without joining in the equities casino. For the life of me I have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for their plight, and wish them all the best of luck packing up their possessions, their savings, and moving to a place they can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana. As Sick Boy might say, "You had it, you lost it, and it's gone forever." Such is one theory of life.
  • stcredzero 10y ago
    For the life of me I have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for their plight, and wish them all the best of luck packing up their possessions, their savings, and moving to a place they can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana. Someday, perhaps I might ponder whether I should feel sorry for you, and wish you the best of luck packing up your possessions, your savings, as you move to a place you can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana. A lot of 20-somethings treated me like "bantha pudu" in interviews. I can empirically say that I had never faced such unprofessional rudeness before I moved to the Bay Area. I had never had such mistaken and hasty accusations that I was lying. I had never had people simply blow me off for a phone interview. Never before have I had to try so hard to avoid negative stereotypes in a professional setting. In my time in places like Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, those things were all limited to social settings. To quote a song from the 60's, if we're all so open and progressive, why am I "picking up that funny vibe?" (To be fair, this isn't everyone in their 20's around here. But the population isn't zero by far!)
• oldmanjay 10y ago
  I'm over 40 and I've been continuing to get more work than I can handle by staying up to date on my tech skills. Maybe that professional headshot I never got would help, though.
  • boto3 10y ago
    amen to that, older engineers would require higher salaries (due to the need to support family, to pay mortgage, etc.), and would not be able to put in the same number of hours. So if you can't demonstrate that you provide more values than the younger guns, why would an employer want to hire older engineers?
    • refractiveco 10y ago
      In theory the more experience you have the fewer hours you would need to put in. You've solved all the common problems engineers face 10 times before.
      • new_hackers 10y ago
        This. I've found the need to be a 60+ hour hero means that you don't really know what you are doing. The guy who goes home early on Fridays, that is the guy who knows his stuff.
        • minipci1321 10y ago
          > means that you don't really know what you are doing. Or spending too much time in the calls instead of doing the damn thing. Or counting handling the email client as work hours.
    • tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      They won't require older salaries if they can't get a job elsewhere, only because their skills are in demand and useful.
    • spoonie 10y ago
• JeremyMorgan 10y ago
  I don't know about the Silicon Valley, but I'm in the Silicon Forest (Hillsboro/Portland Oregon) and this market seems to be very merit driven. You can be 80 years old and get a job if you can do work. Maybe you can't get a job at fart.IO building an API for some craft beer BS but at many mid to large companies 40 is still an average. The last 4-5 companies I've been at value bullet points over anything else (for what that's worth). If you're 40+ and coming in showing off your PHP skills, JQuery or WinForms experience you'll get dumped, but the same goes for the 23 year old with that skill set. My advice is always the same for developers my age: Keep with the times! If you aren't passionate enough about this work to continue learning and advancing on your own time get out. Go do something slower paced. Don't expect the industry to change.
  • wyclif 10y ago
    coming in showing off your PHP skills, JQuery or WinForms experience you'll get dumped This sounds odd to me. I don't doubt it happens, but why? PHP roles are still going strong, and there's a ton of PHP work that is not legacy code.
  • kuhzaam 10y ago
    Dammit.... fart.IO is unavailable.
    • paulddraper 10y ago
      It's just parked too :( What a waste. Could have make some nice parody material.
  • DigitalJack 10y ago
    Craft beer in portland just means "more hops." I call it crap beer. Fully agree with your post, just felt like griping about "craft" beer here.
    • ksk 10y ago
      On that note, why are there so many new IPAs in PNW? I like IPAs, but I doubt most people want them.
• vvanders 10y ago
  The best explanation I've seen for this is when you're a young engineer with little experience showing knowledge of a framework or technique is a huge plus. For someone with a ton of experience not knowing something is shown as a minus. For interview processes trying to avoid false positives a negative mark will hurt you much more in the final sum. So the bar is set differently for two candidates applying to the same position. I'm sure it doesn't account for every aspect but certainly seemed to explain some of it.
  • rwmj 10y ago
    Ignoring the latest fad is a plus in my books. Of course this only works if you know the fundamentals.
    • emodendroket 10y ago
      Gee, you don't think rewriting everything every couple of months is a wise use of money?
  • Alex3917 10y ago
    > So the bar is set differently for two candidates applying to the same position. Because employers expect and accept that hiring people straight out of college is a lemon market. But by the time people reach fifty, the expectation is that you can identify the lemons.
• 6dqh5yapl3 10y ago
  I'm 24. Guess I should buy a shitty condo in Hayward with a 15 year mortgage so I'm paid off when the age discrimination kicks in. 40+ year old engineers with prop 13 equity or rent control - I'm jealous.
  • jraines 10y ago
    Hayward's not so bad at all :) Get the quake insurance though. I still wince when I see what the cost of a Hayward condo would buy back in Georgia.
    • thenewwazoo 10y ago
      If you moved out of ATL more than about 4 years ago, you'd wince when you see what house prices have done there, too. All those "transitional" historic neighborhoods have "transitioned".
    • 6dqh5yapl3 10y ago
      If you live in Hayward, do you happen to know how much the insurance costs? Hard to get a quote without providing an address. And I don't want to someone to get spammed by an insurance seller because they listed their home for sale and I used it to get an insurance quote.
      • jraines 10y ago
        Not exactly sure because I rent; one site I saw says the average in Alameda County is $1,800/yr
  • nfriedly 10y ago
    Forget the condo. Just dump your money in a Vanguard fund and leave it there until you're 40+
  • nickpsecurity 10y ago
    I've actually recommended that strategy to a lot of young people recently. I see victims of age discrimination all the time who were displaced by younger, less-capable, cheaper and easier-to-fool workers. These younger people have a good chance of being in same position. So, best to either avoid debt or have it all paid off in 10-15 years.
• new_hackers 10y ago
  Skills pay the bills. Many of the over-40 crowd I've worked with just plain don't want to learn anything new. They have settled, and are passive in their learning. This is the #1 reason they won't be relevant.
  • angryasian 10y ago
    This is the exact attitude that makes tech a shit sector to be in. Its not that people don't want learn anything, its that when you're 40 a lot more time is invested in things outside of work. Kids, wife, house, etc. When you're 20, nomadic, are by yourself, and have a ton of free time.. yes finding time to learn is easy.
    • spoonie 10y ago
      Expectations just need to be set accordingly. Either the employer factors in "learning" time for employees to stay up to date as they start new projects, or the employee is told they need to spend some amount of their own time on training.
    • zxcvvcxz 10y ago
      What is your point. The job market is not meant to cater to people's specific changes in work/life preferences. This is almost analogous to complaining about construction being ageist against older people who don't keep in shape. Yeah guess what, you need to in order to do the work.
      • edgyswingset 10y ago
        Or, maybe if we collectively push for a culture where employers who expect you to learn new technology pay you to learn said new technology, staying up to date won't feel so awfully one-sided.
        • friendlygrammar 10y ago
          Why would they do that when there are people there is a large enough supply of people with the relevant skills?
• sjclemmy 10y ago
  It might be like that in SV. It doesn't feel that way where I live. I'm 44 and do Front end dev, which I taught myself after being a project manager / Business analyst for a good 10 years. I do live in what might be considered a backwater in England, but I get enquirers almost daily about my availability. Also - I read about Shel Kaphan the other day - employee #1 at Amazon - he must have been in his 40s when he started there if he was studying in 1975. Obviously his age didn't deter Jeff Bezos. I've worked in places where older employees become irrelevant to the business because they get stuck in their ways and don't want to / can't change. If you're not prepared to re-skill, or you think your job is safe - you're in for a rough time if someone else controls your destiny. That's not to say people don't get badly treated by organisations - they do, and that's wrong. But still, working life is a struggle and a balancing act.
• oxryly1 10y ago
  Is this perhaps because older workers gravitate towards sane hours? Maybe because they develop interests, lives, families, etc outside of work that they commit to (moreso than most 20-somethings)? As a side note: I'm over 40 now, but I do recall being 27 and interviewing someone in their early 40s who was qualified and enthusiastic. I passed on them in part because I felt guilty hiring them; to work on my team the person would have to move their family to a new city, and I didn't want the karma of bringing that many people into a world where the team/project I was on was staffed and led by 20-somethings -- and therefore chaotic and unlikely to survive long in any particular form.
  • api 10y ago
    Older workers are also more savvy. They understand things like the fact that if you're working 80 hours a week for $120k you are actually making $60k.
    • Multiplayer 10y ago
      You're actually making 180k equivalent because you don't have time to spend the money.
      • whamlastxmas 10y ago
        Delete this before Bezos sees it.
      • stalcottsmith 10y ago
        Ha! Workers over 35 tend to have dependents who spend the money regardless and in fact may spend more the less time you spend with them.
    • oldmanjay 10y ago
      I get your point but that's not the best way to make it.
      • Drdrdrq 10y ago
• tapmap 10y ago
  This is such bullshit. There are no limits on entrepreneurship and the age at which you can start a business, which is what drives real growth and value in Silicon Valley. Sure, if you want to be a wage slave to some other company, and help someone else achieve their dreams, go ahead and work for another company, and get discriminated against because of your grey hair.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    The skillset and risk profile for being an entrepreneur vs being an engineer are completely different.
  • crimsonalucard 10y ago
    You're the one full of shit. Workers are the primary drivers of growth and value in silicon valley and the entire global economy. Think about it logically, if businesses do work and get work done... how can you start a business without any workers? An economy with existing businesses can function just fine without any entrepreneurs. On the other hand, there are no economies on the face of this earth that can function without any workers.
• BlackjackCF 10y ago
  I think age bias is a thing, but the best software engineers (and the most productive) I've worked with are over 40. They're sharp, kept up with current technology, and they actually can build things in a way that's adaptable.
• DonCarlitos 10y ago
  Try being over 60 & gettind cred. "How could you possibly understand bleeding edge tech and emerging trends?" Well...I've lived there for four decades, you?
  • v1vek 10y ago
    :)
  • oxryly1 10y ago
    Yes, this. And even worse, "I recognize that 'bleeding edge tech' as yet another rehash of something innovated in the 60s or 70s and therefore I'm not nearly as impressed as you by it."
    • olalonde 10y ago
      This sort of remark reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWeoxrhbE8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWeoxrhbE8 (or perhaps https://youtu.be/ZjibEkDoXQc?t=19 https://youtu.be/ZjibEkDoXQc?t=19) It doesn't add much value to the conversation and whether some tech is really a rehash or not rarely matters. It also makes you sound cynical.
      • marcosdumay 10y ago
        That's because people that say that usually are cynical. And usually right too. "I've seen people try that 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 years ago. Nobody made it work." Is rarely something that does not matter, and people that can't answer the implicit "why would you succeed?" question usually doesn't.
      • jmde 10y ago
        It does matter if you're aware of the cost:benefit ratio involved in adopting it relative to the existing tech, or even more commonly, the cost:benefit ratio involved in adopting it relative to adapting or modifying existing tech. Maybe as an employee, it might not be the right thing to be pushing with an employer enamored of the new tech, but as an objective onlooker, it very well may be. There's plenty of amazing innovation happening all the time, so I don't want to come across as a luddite or whatever, but hype does happen, and as you get older, you witness more of it and become more skeptical of it. You see the fads come and go--the faster they come, the faster they go--and the survivor bias. The problem is that it's there, and it feels sometimes like you face the choice of correctly pointing that out, or being labeled a cynic.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• ThomPete 10y ago
  Here is the thing though. A person who is 40 knows and understands a lot of the problems of their industry and they are often much more experienced at making sure they don't waste their time. This is why I would propose that the strongest cocktail is pairing young people with older people. https://medium.com/black-n-white/the-problem-with-problems-47ee63bb3511#.jcbr526ax https://medium.com/black-n-white/the-problem-with-problems-4...
• DiffEq 10y ago
  I think it may be tough if you have not continued to improve yourself. There are some maxims to always follow to prevent yourself from "expiring": Keep learning. 1. Always learn some new hard thing; a language, more math, or go deeper into your subject (programming languages, etc.) 2. Stay in top physical shape and learn some new physical skill. Learning should be multifaceted and a lifestyle; intellectual and physical. If you think you can just coast after college then you will be passed up.
• shams93 10y ago
  Engineering is a dead end job, especially outside of silicon valley. There is 0 respect for experience in the industry, we have more respect for someone who has coded for 2 weeks than someone who continually improves over 25 years. Unless you become a celebrity coder you find that your best choice going forward is suicide. The industry won't let you have a social life or a family once you hit 45 no one cares about you and suicide becomes your most positive life option, or you can keep working 18-20 hours a day 7 days a week until you get sick and die if you're lucky.
  • doozy 10y ago
    Seek help.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  • pcunite 10y ago
    I know it took a lot of energy to write this. What helps me is knowing that there is purpose in reaching out and connecting with the creator of life itself. Jesus loves you. Find him at a UPCI church.
  • dang 10y ago
    Oh man, that's rough, and reading this makes me worry about you. I know it's not much, but if you feel like sharing your experiences or want someone to talk to, let me know at hn@ycombinator.com and I'll send you my personal email address.
• gtrubetskoy 10y ago
  My observation (as someone over 40) is that some of us who started early on in the trade decided to throw in the towel and declared themselves "management", and (most importantly) stopped being hands-on. And it's these people who are most at risk of ending up behind. Those of us who kept on programming, networking, never quit learning and stayed current with all the latest stuff are actually extremely sought after and valuable - experience is hugely important, critical, even, especially where scale and reliability matter.
• kragen 10y ago
  "Michael Peredo, a 55-year-old auto engineer dismissed from Mercedes-Benz in February 2015, says he had trouble giving up his bow ties for T-shirts, as some he met at ProMatch suggested. ‘I feel like myself wearing them,’ he says." Yeah, you're going to have a really hard time getting a programming job in Silicon Valley if you show up in looking like a security guard in a tie, let alone looking like a waiter in a bowtie. It's the same story as showing up for an interview for an enterprise sales job in ripped jeans and a T-shirt — it undermines your credibility. It shouldn't — our meritocratic hacker values place no value on surface appearances, and we fail them when we are influenced by what people are wearing or their gender or skin color or age — but it absolutely does. Raymond Chen can get away with wearing a suit and tie all the time, but you probably can't. The good news is that Peredo got a job immediately when he stopped wearing the bowtie to interviews. It's not gonna be as easy if you're black.
  • michael_h 10y ago
    The number of bowties I've seen recently has increased dramatically...among younger workers. This is in a research focused environment, so there's a little more fashion leeway. Things are cyclical. For better or worse, I think we're on the rising edge of a rebellion against the nerd-frump affect. Thank you Matt Smith!
    • wott 10y ago
      I hope the ruff comes back!
      • dredmorbius 10y ago
        Powdered wigs and codpieces.
  • beamatronic 10y ago
    Is there a suggested outfit that over-40's should be wearing to interviews? Is a hoodie a must-have? Is it better to wear an Apple watch, or say a Nixon watch?
• erobbins 10y ago
  I'm over 40 and haven't experienced any problems. I don't know if I'm lucky, good, both, or just average and only the outliers are the ones having difficulty.
• albertop 10y ago
  I find it fascinating that when there is a discussion about age discrimination, most commenters have "advice" for the old farts how to stay current, learn current hip tech, be willing to work longer hours etc. However, we we talk about women in computing, it is always sexism and the discussion is about how the corporations need to change to attract more women. Pretty asymmetrical, don't you think?
  • donretag 10y ago
    My company is undergoing a big diversity initiative. Although the company is 75% female, the first task to is increase the number of women in tech. Race is also a factor. When asked about what is being done about age discrimination, there was a roundabout answer that did not address anything. Age diversity is not trendy. EDIT: I should clarify that I have nothing against the diversity initiative in general, just pointing how despite all the work that is/was done, age discrimination was not even considered.
    • crimsonalucard 10y ago
      Most diversity initiatives are discriminatory by nature. Assuming your company hires people exclusively based on skill.... In order to artificially balance certain ratios your company must discriminate on who they hire. In the educational world this is called affirmative action.
      • mywittyname 10y ago
        I disagree. Diversity is about hiring people based purely on merit, rather than letting prejudices about gender/age/race taint the hiring process. Nobody's suggesting that we hire under-qualified women/elders/blacks, but they are saying the merely being such is not an indication of inferior ability or lack of "culture fit."
        • toomuchtodo 10y ago
          > I disagree. Diversity is about hiring people based purely on merit, rather than letting prejudices about gender/age/race taint the hiring process. What if that means you end up mostly with white males due to women and minorities being drastically underrepresented in the total tech employee pool? Diversity is great until you hit the statistics wall.
• albertop 10y ago
  I find it fascinating that when there is a discussion about age discrimination, most commenters have "advice" for the old farts how to stay current, learn current hip tech, be willing to work longer hours etc. However, we we talk about women in computing, it is always sexism and the discussion is about how the corporations need to change to attract more women. Pretty asymmetrical, don't you think?
• gentleteblor 10y ago
  I think it's extremely important for folks over 40 to track their accomplishments. Their resumes are longer, their skills can be older, some of the companies they've worked for might not even exist anymore. It's even more important to be able to search/narrow down/focus your decades of experience/accomplishments to those that matter in this new ageist landscape. And the truth is, you've probably done whatever SV recruiters/managers say you require. You've been the self-starting, chaos riding, new tech stack conquering machine. You've lived at the cutting edge. It's just not on your resume, and you don't bring it up in interviews because you haven't been that person in a while and all your (maybe) recent job search experience is in displaying the breadth and length of your career. It's tough.
• coleifer 10y ago
  My parents and my friends' parents are all nearing retirement age, and I've been surprised by the profound differences in their responses to the realization that they are becoming old. It seems clear to me that age is just a state of mind. Some people act old and are cautious fucks that recoil from change. Others try very hard to appear as if they "get it", though they obviously don't, and the fact that they're trying so hard ends up looking pathetic to me. Then there are the ones who don't give a fuck, and they are the best. I think they're the ones who are truly the wisest, and their vitality is infectious, they don't "seem" old. My point is this: if you're 40 years old and are all butthurt that no Silicon Valley company wants to hire you, your butthurt only proves that the company was right not to hire you in the first place.
  • rdiddly 10y ago
    Well you had me and then you lost me. But speaking as one of the ones who doesn't give a fuck, I'd say it's because we know we're right. Like if I think "I'm a great candidate" and some company made up of little twerps says "Yeah we don't think so," I know I'm the one who's right. My answer is based on (let's say) 25 years of working that career; theirs is based on a 60-minute interview. (Done by someone who's spent most of his life sponging off mom & dad.) Which still proves that they were right not to hire me -- but it's because THEY suck and I would be miserable. (And actually I would probably screen out this kind of "opportunity" before it got to the "yea or nay" stage.)
    • coleifer 10y ago
      I had you and then I lost you? I don't think I ever had you, Mr. Great Candidate. I'm glad you feel so comfortable in your own skin that, despite your obvious superiority, the rejection of the little twerps doesn't keep you down. Clearly I never had you.
      • rdiddly 10y ago
        Yeah, you had me at "People have different reactions to aging," and you lost me at "If you're mad about unfair treatment, that proves you deserved whatever it was."
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• rb808 10y ago
  I come from a family with a few generations of engineers of all types. Mechanical/chemical/electrical engineers have a similar problem that 30 years experience isn't much more useful than 10, wages tend to top out early and you're vulnerable to being laid off and never hired again in your 40s/50s. One advantage over software is that the skills change perhaps less frequently but that is offset by lower overall demand. While you're in your 20's think about what you're going to do at the end of your 20 year window. Are you moving up to management? Have extensive business knowledge to add to tech skills? Have a second career planned? Or saved enough money to retire or semi-retire? Of course you can actively stay up to date with latest technology but that is much tougher than it sounds. You need to have thought a lot about this before you hit 40. For all the young guys out there. Don't think it wont happen to you. If you just follow day by day one day you'll wake up with a big mortgage, a couple of expensive kids, maybe a divorce and a bunch of recruiters that never return your phone calls. You need to avoid that place.
  • dba7dba 10y ago
    So true. The question is, how do you avoid that place. Only so many can become managers. Only so many can start own business and keep it running.
    • taylodl 10y ago
      Put your energy into ending the discrimination now before you too are affected by it.
    • rootbear 10y ago
      Exactly! I would be a terrible manager and I have no entrepreneurial instincts at all. I'm way over 40 and I'm one layoff away from involuntary retirement. I suppose I could hook up with someone who was an entrepreneur, but there's no certainty of that happening.
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• karjaluoto 10y ago
  I have a tough time with these stories. Although I don’t dispute that this bias exists, I feel like the subject matter is also damaging. First of all, these articles are sensational and divisive. Folks over (or nearing) middle age are sensitive. They worry about being outmoded and removed/downsized. My hunch is that they read these articles out of fear. For younger folks, I suspect it’s reassuring to know that you have something to offer that older folks might not. So, for the publisher, these produce clicks/views. However, when you get past the personal examples of exclusion, and some of the reductive arguments (e.g. “Younger people are just smarter.”) little of this is as simple as it first seems. Fact is, for a long time, older workers were less technically competent than their younger counterparts. That said, for a generation that grew up with technology, this isn’t so much the case any longer. This became painfully obvious to me, while sitting with an Apple “Genius” one day. He was very hip; however, I needed to explain to him how to use the Find function in his browser. (Seriously.) Young and older people both have something to contribute. Young ones often bring new ideas and perspectives because they’ve grown up differently. They lend enthusiasm and energy that older staff sometimes don’t. Frankly, older ones often don’t want to work marathon hours (this isn’t always the case, but tends to be). That said, older workers typically bring more knowledge and experience to the table. I suspect that part of the bias in favor of younger workers comes from younger business owners (common in startups). I ran into this when we started our design studio. I was 26. At the time, it was scary to hire a 50-year-old to come in, because I didn’t feel comfortable directing someone that much older than me (I probably wouldn’t have admitted this at the time). Additionally, those people typically wanted to earn more—and we didn’t think we could afford them. So, we hired younger folks who worked at a lower hourly rate, but often needed an inordinate amount of training and support. Were I to start that company all over again, I’d do the opposite. I’d hire more skilled people and pay more than market rate. I’d then gauge their performance, and retain/dismiss solely based on that. In my experience, a skilled person at a higher rate of pay was always more valuable/profitable for our company than a less-skilled worker at a lower rate of pay. My point is that the companies which use age as a barometer of value are approaching HR in a flawed way. The contribution of a staff member is more important than the date on his/her birth certificate. Meanwhile, the garment choices and pop-culture references one uses shouldn’t have any bearing on the value of the individual (unless we’re talking about a company who traffics in such matter). That said, I think the real problem is the employee mindset. So long as your livelihood depends on one single organization, you put yourself at risk. This is doubly-so for those who remain loyal to a company for a decade or more. HR departments are notoriously short-sighted when it comes to assessing skills. They like seeing candidates who fulfill the specific requirements of a job. Meanwhile, they often don’t understand which skills are transferrable (because they typically don’t actually understand the work/technology). So, if you’ve worked in print publishing for the past 20 years, an HR person might not hire you to work in a digital content shop. However, web technologies aren’t that hard to master. Knowing a good story, understanding what attracts an audience, and having strong people skills are all much more valuable (and difficult to learn skills). But, still, those hiring often won’t see this—which puts such a person at a disadvantage. There are many reasons why running your own startup, studio, consultancy are difficult. That said, all of these pursuits force you to be nimble. Most of them also allow you to distribute your income sources among multiple groups—which builds resilience. And, after you’ve done any of these things, you tend to be more employable—because you have a stronger sense of what companies need. (Additionally, those who’ve “done it on their own” often exhibit characteristics that are attractive to management—especially those whose current staff is comprised primarily of box fillers.) My point here (and I know I’ve carried on) is that the age discussion is a red herring. The real matter is how one remains relevant/valuable—regardless of age. Continual learning is a part of that. Another is one’s ability to adapt to less familiar roles (e.g., planning, sales, management, guidance). More importantly, though, no one should treat their employer as the gatekeeper to their future. We’re all free agents. Some of us are mostly independent. Others play for teams. Those who play for teams should always know—and build—their value, so they don’t end up marooned.
• erjjones 10y ago
  Come to the Midwest ... I really enjoy the perspective of the older developers. Perspective is what the Valley needs if ageism is an issue, because we aren't getting younger.
• rdiddly 10y ago
  "Young people are just smarter." Ha! I love it! What ZUCKERGUY means is that young people are smart in a way that he, another young person, can recognize and understand. Whereas older people are smart in ways that young people don't yet recognize or understand. It's just one great big Dunning-Krueger Effect. Young people don't know how much they don't know. Fortunately for them, old people are a totally different species from young people. It's not like young people turn into old people or anything. Can you imagine the horrors? Like what if life were one big continuum where you start out young and slowly turn old? Scary stuff!
• muzster 10y ago
  Some 'Official' Stats Source: http://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm http://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm I would put some relevant comment on the meaning of these figures but I have to put my kids to bed, sort out their school packed lunch, get scolded by my wife - all before I work on my side projects. I'll leave it to the youngsters.
  • muzster 10y ago
    Median Age / Profession 42.1 Computer systems analysts 44.7 Information security analysts 43.1 Computer programmers 39.7 Software developers, applications and systems software 35.9 Web developers 40.5 Computer support specialists 47.0 Database administrators 41.2 Network and computer systems administrators 41.6 Computer network architects 41.2 Computer occupations, all other
    • muzster 10y ago
      Hint: look at the outliers
• daxfohl 10y ago
  What is tenure/turnover like in the big SV companies? I see salaries rise pretty quickly and the ceiling is fairly high, but does this simply mean you're likely to rise to a certain level and then get replaced? For 40-year-old techies looking for a company to round out their career, are the SV biggies the wrong place to look?
• bruxis 10y ago
  One thing that I'm really surprised about is the lack of empathy that companies and teams feel with this. I've been hiring engineers for a few years now and from _my_ perspective, age has never been a consideration. That does not mean other interviewers did not include age bias which influenced the overall decision. I'm around 30 currently, and I'm terrified as I get older that this will happen to me and my friends. Saving for retirement is, intentionally, a very long process -- and very arduous if you're trying to save to retire in the Bay area. What are people that push such discrimination thinking about their own futures?
  • munchbunny 10y ago
    They're probably not being intentionally ageist. My guess is that the differences in sense of humor, lack of desire to hang out with coworkers, and other social differences just make them seem like unappealing "culture" fits. And it's true, if you're just hiring for people you can also hang out with and you're in your 20's, of course you won't like them. At some point you get the revelation that people have their own lives and there is a social relationship along the lines of "we work together but I'm otherwise not interested in you," and that this is actually a very common and viable type of social relationship.
    • user5994461 10y ago
      Add the salary on top of that. Higher experience commands higher salary and no company has an unlimited cash flow, even among the ones who are truly interested in the rare experiences and skills. On the other hand, the world is full of companies and industries who are basing their business on cheap employees and lowballing.
• davidw 10y ago
  A mention of housing is obligatory: being able to live there with a family is very, very difficult due to the train wreck of a housing market that area has.
• dbg31415 10y ago
  I feel like a lot of discrimination in tech comes from a dislike of experience. Many project teams and companies instantly dislike the person who says, "This can't be done," or, "We need more information before we can give an estimate." If you're 40, there's a good chance you know more than most people in the room about what's going to work and what isn't. But what you have to remember is that the only reason you have this knowledge is from fucking up and working all-nighters and missing deadlines in the past. So, even if it means more work for you, you have to be willing to let the people who are driving the ship make mistakes. Nobody wants their parent around, or to feel second guessed. Tech is always about finding new ways to do things, trying new ideas. Don't turn into the nay-sayer.
  • bphogan 10y ago
    This is exactly it. It's a lesson I learned recently. Just chill out. Don't try to "save" people from making mistakes.
• user5994461 10y ago
  Don't believe the lies a single second. The truth is, it is NOT tough being 3X-4X in silicon valley. What is tough is accepting to put up with startups about to fail, long hours, mediocre pay, little benefits and immature coworkers. That does limit the size of the job market. That issue is faced by everyone, independently of their age. The youngers selves just happen to have lower standards in average.
• rdiddly 10y ago
  Older people, please: Never "play young" for a paycheck. It's sad as shit. If you're not a professional clown and don't want to be seen as a figurative clown, why would you ever act like someone who is less than yourself? (Along the same line men, don't take Viagra, it's pathetic. Just enjoy and cherish the fact that for once you're not obsessed with mating, and can finally get some damn work done instead of chasing every nice ass. Another perspective young dudes won't understand.) Turn to crime before you get a FACELIFT (are you shitting me) for any job. Heck, older people make great criminals - they've accumulated cunning and horse-sense which are great for gulling young people out of their money. And young people have many things that can be used against them: enthusiasm, idealism, energy and a tendency to waste it (also see Aikido), insecurities, inexperience, a preoccupation with mating (see above). Best of all, young people's tendency to think they're smarter than they really are, means that you can be the superior adversary while your adversary thinks the opposite (see Aikido again, and Sun Tzu). Young people if this kind of talk scares you, think about hiring some of these people! ;)
  • nickpsecurity 10y ago
    That was a really funny way to tell older people to go into management, marketing, politics, or VC firms. They can use all the advantages you describe for large sums of money without their actions being crimes.
• temuze 10y ago
  "Peredo spent 18 months looking for work before he took off his bow tie and landed a job." It's hard to identify causality here. You could say that there's a correlation with casual attire and job offers in the valley. Alternatively, he got better in those 18 months...
• codecamper 10y ago
  Seems rather silly to discriminate against 4x people. Correct me if i'm wrong, but most things great about computers were created by people who are now older than 40. Can people name a few important technologies that were created by someone younger than 40? And if you want to have your company bought, who will be buying? People who are older than 40! (except for FB)
  • rebelidealist 10y ago
    i value older developers but ruby on rails, jquery, react, elxir and may more popular libraries are created by guys in their 20s. Of course these tech and build on shoulder of older giants.
• lunchboxsushi 10y ago
  Being a young software developer it feel a bit out of place to be getting a salary less than someone who has been in the field for say 15 years. My only reason for this is that technology does change really fast, and things should be looked at if the job can be complete. Yes there are a bunch of 'Younglings' that just use the newest freshest flavor framework or scripting language (that can be a nightmare to work with) but if a programmer can make something extensible and maintainable does the experience really need to offset salaries by a large margin... (in my area it jumps from 30-90/hour)
  • lloyd-christmas 10y ago
    > if a programmer can make something extensible and maintainable How do you know it's extensible and maintainable without having seen it last? How quickly do you recognize pitfalls of decision-making? How many applications have you built that you've seen fail? People vastly underestimate the importance of burning your hand on the stove.
• ErikAugust 10y ago
  I think the most unconscious or perhaps completely conscious bias that I'm not sure I'm seeing mentioned with age is salary requirements and other various forms of compensation. Older people are thought to have mortgages, families, etc. They often cost more money, and work less hours. That's simply never thought as attractive to employers who want more work hours for less money. Disclaimer: Not saying this is right - but I think that's a big part of it.
  • m4x 10y ago
    This is true of all industries, however. Having a family and owning a home are not attributes found exclusively amongst tech workers.
• sjg007 10y ago
  This will change as the bulk of millennials get older but it doesn't help anyone now. Network, network, network.
• tropo 10y ago
  So here I am, at a place willing to hire these people, but actually getting them hired isn't so easy. First of all, yes, you do need to leave Silicon Valley. People seem strangely afraid to leave. There is a world out here! Getting houses for 10% of what they cost is Silicon Valley has got to be worth something, no? Second of all, finding them is tough. We can show up at a large college and meet lots of people, nearly all young. There is no similar place where we can show up to recruit older people. Older people have the skills we need, particularly assembly language. We have to sort through lots and lots of young people to find a few with potential, but at least "lots and lots" is available at many colleges.
• AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  IMO it's because the majority of the companies getting funding in SV don't need DEEP expertise in a specific technical area. All of the companies mentioned in the article are mainly doing fairly "easy" tech around either well understood or new frameworks with low barriers to entry. If you look at the age composition of companies that are working in Deep Learning, Computer Vision, Hardware they are significantly older than others - it's because you typically need a PhD or equivalent time working on the problems to actually build new stuff. Until SV starts funding - enmasse - hard tech, which needs more experienced workers, I don't think you'll see much change there.