9 ms·

Lyft Is Said to Seek a Buyer, Without Success

115 points by coloneltcb 10y ago

cft 10y ago
I do not see how this is different from the airline business, where several airlines co-exist in the US
philip1209 10y ago
The Information reported that they declined an offer from GM and ended up pursuing another round of funding. (It's a little unclear whether there was a formal bid.) https://www.theinformation.com/lyft-rebuffs-acquisition-approach-from-gm https://www.theinformation.com/lyft-rebuffs-acquisition-appr... (sorry for paywall)
skynetv2 10y ago
I like Lyft and use them preferentially, hope they stay afloat.
- kyrre 10y ago
  why? same drivers. very similar app.
  - hulpult 10y ago
    Monopolies are bad.
  - llamataboot 10y ago
    Not in the city I'm in. Lyft drivers are notably more friendly, to the extent that it's almost a stereotype. Uber seems to have more regular taxi drivers moonlighting, Lyft seems to have more people making it their second job.
    - tammer 10y ago
      During driver on-boarding Lyft trains drivers to converse with passengers, while Uber actively discourages it. This is the dynamic you're picking up on, and to me it plays out clearly in the customer space. I prefer a quiet ride, therefore I choose Uber, but I know plenty of people like you who prefer the conversation. I think currently its a good differentiator for Lyft but Uber's preparing us for our driverless future.
      - r00fus 10y ago
        I took a Lyft recently - when I made it clear I didn't want to talk, the driver clammed up, was polite and I got to ride in peace (had a headache & just got off hours of customer calls).
    - thatswrong0 10y ago
      Feel this way about Lyft in SF. I very rarely have bad experiences with Lyft, but with Uber it's been common enough that I only use it when Lyft has no drivers available (which is typically during high surge prices, in which case taking a cab makes more sense).
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - chipgap98 10y ago
      Yeah I feel this way about Lyft in Boston
  - lwhsiao 10y ago
    I Use them usually just because the price tends to be slightly cheaper.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    Does Uber have cars other than black now?
    - abritinthebay 10y ago
      They have had for a long time.
      - jMyles 10y ago
        Haha, I'm not sure how I missed it. I've probably ridden in one. I just mostly use Lyft.
    - bcoates 10y ago
      At least in the LA market, Uber's cheapest level of service appears to accept any car that can wedge in 5 adults. I've been picked up by sub-compacts and 20th century Corollas on UberX.
  - skciva 10y ago
    Drivers I know prefer Lyft because it pays out better. Combine this with the fact that its slightly cheaper (where I am at least) makes Lyft over Uber a no brainer for me.
    - et-al 10y ago
      On average, Lyft Line has actually been a bit more expensive than Uber Pool here in SF, but Lyft pays and treats drivers better, so I'd rather have the difference go to the guy trying to make a buck. Also, if Uber beats the competition, I doubt they're going to keep fares as cheap as they are. Be prepared for fares to double.
    - philwelch 10y ago
      This is also more or less the exact formula for Lyft being less valuable than Uber as a company.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    I too prefer Lyft. In my city the drivers are friendlier and verbally indicate they like working for Lyft much more than Uber (most work for both). Better customer experience.
  - eridius 10y ago
    Not only does Lyft pay drivers better, but Uber has done far too many scummy things for me to want to ever use them again.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    The way it was explained to me by someone who drives for both Uber and Lyft (which isn't a common thing, by the way, contrary to popular belief): Prospective Lyft drivers actually have to undergo an orientation where they are essentially screened and given basic training by a Lyft driver. Prospective Uber drivers, on the other hand, can start working right away without even a face-to-face meeting with anyone. All they have to do is apply online. Not sure how accurate this is, but anecdotally, I've always noticed that Lyft drivers have better customer service skills than Uber drivers, and are more personable.
    - pimlottc 10y ago
      > someone who drives for both Uber and Lyft (which isn't a common thing, by the way, contrary to popular belief) Really? Do you have any numbers on that? Every I've talked to who has done one has done both. > Prospective Uber drivers, on the other hand, can start working right away without even a face-to-face meeting with anyone. All they have to do is apply online. It's not quite "right away", you still have to go through a background screening, which can take quite a while. With Lyft, I had my mentor orientation the day after I applied and was approved 3 days after. Uber, on the the hand, while not requiring an in-face meeting, took 3 weeks to finally approve me, after requiring additional documentation regarding my driving record on my previous license.
  - XJOKOLAT 10y ago
    Exactly.
  - cozzyd 10y ago
    Lyft allows tips, which is nice (since <5 starring people is a death sentence, it provides a better way of differentiating between great and sucky). Both suffer from the problem of having clueless suburbanites drivers who often have no idea how to get around the city. It'd be nice if it were possible to filter on drivers who actually live in the city...
    - amyjess 10y ago
      > since <5 starring people is a death sentence, it provides a better way of differentiating between great and sucky On the other hand, since Lyft won't match you with a driver again if you rate them 3 stars or less, that gives incentive to give low ratings to drivers you don't want to be matched with ever again. I haven't had many of those, but I'm glad the option is there when it's come up: for example, texting while driving is an automatic 3 and a flag for safety, if not a 1. I don't want to ride with people who are liable to get me killed. Attempting to give me religious tracts is an automatic 1 (yes, this actually happened). Being creepy to me in general is a 1 (see: the guy who insisted on repeatedly screenshotting the Lyft app with my profile picture visible while I was in the car with him). People who make me sit in the back, especially when their front seat is completely empty, are an automatic 3 unless they make up for it by being a really great conversationalist (and I've learned to always cancel on people with vans, because they like to electronically open their sliding doors as soon as I start walking to their vehicle) Sadly, this is a feature Uber doesn't have. With Uber, you can't do anything to make sure you're never matched with a particular driver again. I just wish Lyft also added a "never match me with this person again" option when cancelling rides or when being cancelled on... I have a handful of drivers I will never ride with because they were utter dicks to me when finding where I am. This includes a few people who, in an office park in the suburbs, parked a block or two way and demanded I walk. Then there was one guy who parked at the hospital across the street (a six-lane arterial with no traffic light in sight) from where I was and had the gall to send the signal that he was here: I called him to tell him he's at the wrong location, he responded "I'm at the hospital", and as soon as I said I'm somewhere else, he shouted "CALL ANOTHER!" at me and cancelled on me. Or the guy who texted me to demand I text him my address and then cancelled on me when I told him I already put my destination into the app. I've just had to memorize their names and remember to cancel whenever I'm matched with them.
  - r00fus 10y ago
    I think Uber is run by jerks, and want to vote with my wallet? I am not a big fan of the idea of secret-sauce surge pricing. I also take cabs when it's feasible and not significantly (ie, 2x) more expensive than Lyft/Uber (though most of that travel is expensed).
tptacek 10y ago
So is it reasonable to surmise that what's happening here is: Lyft has a 1.2B cash reserve, ~400MM/yr in revenue, isn't profitable, and has now hit the end of the line on "unicorn" infusions at favorable terms. It's locked in a total war with Uber, which it cannot win or even stalemate while simultaneously shielding its reserves to keep an adequate runway to profitability. So, since it can't win the race against Uber, its prospects are greatly diminished, and the greatest value it might hold is as someone else's strategic asset. Or is it something more fundamental than that?
- mathattack 10y ago
  I would add that their flanking Uber internationally (China) failed. Whoever purchases them would want some asset whose value isn't tied to fighting Uber head-to-head. Perhaps the network could be valuable to Google? I notice that Waze seems to be inching in that direction, and perhaps they could get value from the mapping too. The ride-sharing market seems to have network effects, which means the service with 80% of the market will get much more than 80% of the profit.
  - joelrunyon 10y ago
    I believe Google has a not-insignificant stake in Uber already. Would be interesting to see them on both sides.
    - supster 10y ago
      Google is in a really interesting spot: - They own a significant stake in Uber via GV (formerly Google Ventures) - They own Google Maps, which everyone relies on at the moment - They own the most advanced self driving car and are closest to Level 4 autonomy - They own Waze, and have a significant community there In my mind they should acquire Lyft, let it run as is. Then when they are ready to go primetime with their self driving cars, start piloting them as a cheaper/free option within the Lyft app. If the pilot works, expand the cars nationwide and aggressively finance the fleet using their balance sheet.
aresant 10y ago
Travis Kalanick made an succinct observation on ridesharing's future yesterday: "If we are not tied for first [in autonomous vehicle rollout], then the person who is in first. . . rolls out a ride-sharing network that is far cheaper or far higher-quality than Uber's, and Uber is no longer a thing," Kalanick said."(1) Lyft has raised ~$2b at a recent $5.5b valuation, Uber has raised ~$9b at a $85b valuation. Lyft is able to somewhat compete with Uber on today's ground war of drivers & customer acquisition, but unlikely to compete in tomorrow's war of autonomous without a partner. The recent $500m round Lyft got from GM clearly has GM positioned as takeout partner - GM brings the autonomous / Lyft brings the customers. What I bet happened here is that Lyft tried to power move GM with some large stalking-horse bids, the tactic backfired, and now GM is leaking to put pressure on Lyft to accept a diminished offer. (1) http://www.businessinsider.com/travis-kalanick-interview-on-self-driving-cars-future-driver-jobs-2016-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/travis-kalanick-interview-on-...
- berberous 10y ago
  Just FYI, it's stalking horse, not stocking horse.
  - aresant 10y ago
    Updated! Learned something today, thanks
    - samstokes 10y ago
      Along similar lines, I think you meant "astute observation" [1], not "succinct observation" [2]. The latter is accurate, since he didn't use too many words to get his point across, but probably not what you intended to point out :) [1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astute http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astute [2] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/succinct http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/succinct
- MichaelApproved 10y ago
  I believe that everything will reset when automated cars come out. Whomever is in the lead now will not matter because automated rides will be such a game-changer that it'll reset the entire market.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pasbesoin 10y ago
In my (limited) circle, I often hear Uber mentioned. I never hear mention of Lyft. Paywall is keeping me out of the NYT article, at the moment, but I wonder whether Lyft is simply on the losing slope of a plot of momentum, at this point. Shame, as I am not very fond of Uber's business practices. Though I don't know that Lyft is any better.
- jjnoakes 10y ago
  Uber vs Lyft seems to be very location-dependent. So I'm not surprised that individual anecdotes list one or the other as favored among their circles.
- delecti 10y ago
  Uber is almost at "google" levels of generic trademark, where people say to call an uber as a generic for any rideshare ride.
- bcoates 10y ago
  I know a lot of people prefer Lyft as a first resort but to me it has two serious problems: * Lyft doesn't let you book a ride by web or sms, which means in an emergency, I can't cadge a ride easily at a web cafe, library, laptop at a Starbucks, borrowed phone, etc. Lyft is optional, having a working m.uber.com login is a survival skill. * I've never experienced the level of drivers outright misbehaving and fucking with passengers in an Uber that I semi-frequently experience as a friend's guest in a Lyft. I don't know if it's culture or what, but Lyft drivers seem to feel comfortable doing things like picking a location and ditching you or not accepting your instructions to drive a particular place, which as far as I can tell is a "never drive for us again" infraction over at Uber and the drivers know it.
  - nefitty 10y ago
    What city are you in? I've never experienced a terrible ride like that from Lyft, and I use it exclusively, almost every day. The weirdest experience was a driver offering to take me to a weed dispensery to buy weed for me. And that was him tryin to be nice! Besides that it's just maybe tired or awkward drivers who can't hold a conversation...
bcoates 10y ago
I'm honestly a little surprised Uber and Lyft can't manage a duopoly, considering how many miles ahead of the nearest competitors they are and how many mutual enemies they have.
- Animats 10y ago
  Competition is so last-cen. You need a monopoly, so you can screw over the customers. Read Peter Thiel, "Competition is for losers".[1] "If you corner the market for something, you can jack up the price; others will have no choice but to buy from you." [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-losers-1410535536 http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-l...
  - smnscu 10y ago
    Your quote is taken a bit out of context, but still – I already didn't like Peter Thiel, this further reinforces my impression of him being a scummy, shady character.
    - Animats 10y ago
      Name one "unicorn" with a competitor that's at least half its size. In automotive, GM, Ford, Toyota, and Chrysler have been plugging away for decades, and all have US market shares within a 2:1 range. We're not seeing that in new businesses.
      - dharmon 10y ago
        I thought your grandparent post was being facetious, but are you being serious with this one? Here's off the top of my head: Airbnb, Xiaomi, Flipkart, Pinterest, Snapchat (if you count instagram as a competitor), Zenefits, Didi until last week, Dropbox, Theranos, Snapdeal, Slack. Now that I think about it, it's probably much harder to come up with unicorns that do have a monopoly.
        10y ago
amelius 10y ago
Isn't transportation a "commodity" service? And if so, how can Uber's and Lyft's valuation be explained then? I'm not an economist, but I would predict that the future of personal transportation is going to look like a race to the bottom, just like what is happening to cable companies (who transport data instead of people, and actually own some important infrastructure to keep their quasi monopolies up).
- krschultz 10y ago
  I 100% agree. Uber would like to own a 2 sided marketplace like Ebay, in which case it's nearly winner take all. The dynamics of ridesharing don't seem to match up with that. Every driver in NYC has 2 or 3 phones running multiple apps, the supply is not constrained to any particular network. Autonomous cars owned independently would obviously be smart enough to take the ride with the highest revenue. Thus the marketplaces are going to have to compete based on how much they pass through to the car owners. The margins are going to be paper thin.
- yalogin 10y ago
  True but that is too theoretical and way in the future at this point. Uber will just become the service provider. That is their goal to become the PG&E of transportation.
justinzollars 10y ago
Why is everyone so afraid of going public?
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Oh, you with your pesky questions. Aren't the emperor's clothes simply fabulous?
- erobbins 10y ago
  Because it brings accountability.
  - justinzollars 10y ago
    I want accountability.
kinofcain 10y ago
If Uber is investing heavily in self-driving cars, there's a case to be made that Lyft represents a "purer" investment in ride-sharing without assuming the cost/risk of that massive expenditure. Uber is betting that they'll be first to self-driving cars, Lyft is betting it will be any one of a dozen companies that aren't Uber. I think that's a pretty reasonable bet. If/when self-driving cars hit there's no way they'll be limited to ride sharing, so the chance that Lyft will be able to benefit from general availability is high.
- trestles 10y ago
  I agree there is not a great difference in the places I am mostly (SF and LA) but I think Uber was smart to bring on a lot of cheap capital the past few years.
chrisabrams 10y ago
I'm not surprised: I've only done one Lyft ride in my life. I arrived into Newark Airport and needed to get to New York City. Uber had a 3x surge, so I downloaded the Lyft app. I saw that Lyft was offering $5 if I did their ride share option, so I chose it. - Driver picks me up quickly, no problem - Driver makes 3 loops around the airport to pick up my ride share, but she cannot understand the Lyft app's GPS/map and is unable to find the person. - Driver decides to just leave the airport without picking the ride share person - Lyft app cancels other ride share's ride AND my ride, while at this point we are on the high way. - Lyft driver tells me to re-request the ride, but after a couple of attempts, I am unable to pair back with the driver whom's car I am in (kept pairing me with other drivers) - Eventually I get out of the car, on the side of the highway, and order an Uber. - Because I'm not in the airport geofence, I didn't get a surge :O
- econner 10y ago
  Is it possible that your experience is not representative?
- karma_vaccum123 10y ago
  Wait...what? The Lyft driver ordered you out of the vehicle on the shoulder of the highway?? Because his own app isn't functioning??? How does this person still have a driver's license let alone a job? If that was me, I would have told him, "tough luck, sorry your app sucks, but I'm not getting out of this car, feel free to phone the police...sure they would be interested in hearing about your plan to drop me off on the highway shoulder..."
  - chrisabrams 10y ago
    They didn't order me out of the car; I actually chose to get out and order an Uber because this driver took me to a random warehouse area off the highway. They said if we waited there a few minutes that the app would let us pair up and then they could drive me. I didn't feel safe so I decided to not participate any longer; I requested an Uber near the highway entrance ramp.
rezashirazian 10y ago
I know HN is not a big fan of proverbs but "Great companies are not sold, they are bought" rings a little too true in this case.
jondubois 10y ago
The ride-sharing hype train ran out of investors. I struggle to think of a company who would want to buy Lyft. The most interesting one which comes to mind is Didi Chuxing. Though given how much money they wasted competing with Uber in China and then buying Uber out of China; I don't think Didi has much cash left (or interest) to buy Lyft in order to compete with Uber on US soil - They probably just want to bury the hatchet with Uber and each plow their own fields. I don't think Uber would buy Lyft for several reasons: - Uber started cutting back on spending - Probably not the best time for acquisitions. - Such an acquisition could raise antitrust issues. - Uber knows that there aren't many potential buyers for Lyft - Uber may be tempted to just wait it out and let Lyft go out of business - Then Uber can pick up most of Lyft's old customers for free. I would not want to be a Lyft employee right now; especially not the kind who has stock options.
flylib 10y ago
this is playing right into Uber's hand's, part of their fundraising strategy was to scare investors from putting more money into Lyft and it may be finally paying off. Now Lyft won't be in a position of leverage when they have to sell themselves as no one wants them at their current price and acquirers will know Lyft is running out of options and will be 1/4 of the price by the end of 2017

115 points by coloneltcb 10y ago

cft 10y ago

I do not see how this is different from the airline business, where several airlines co-exist in the US

The Information reported that they declined an offer from GM and ended up pursuing another round of funding. (It's a little unclear whether there was a formal bid.) https://www.theinformation.com/lyft-rebuffs-acquisition-approach-from-gm https://www.theinformation.com/lyft-rebuffs-acquisition-appr... (sorry for paywall)

skynetv2 10y ago

I like Lyft and use them preferentially, hope they stay afloat.

kyrre 10y ago
why? same drivers. very similar app.
- hulpult 10y ago
  Monopolies are bad.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  Not in the city I'm in. Lyft drivers are notably more friendly, to the extent that it's almost a stereotype. Uber seems to have more regular taxi drivers moonlighting, Lyft seems to have more people making it their second job.
  - tammer 10y ago
    During driver on-boarding Lyft trains drivers to converse with passengers, while Uber actively discourages it. This is the dynamic you're picking up on, and to me it plays out clearly in the customer space. I prefer a quiet ride, therefore I choose Uber, but I know plenty of people like you who prefer the conversation. I think currently its a good differentiator for Lyft but Uber's preparing us for our driverless future.
    - r00fus 10y ago
      I took a Lyft recently - when I made it clear I didn't want to talk, the driver clammed up, was polite and I got to ride in peace (had a headache & just got off hours of customer calls).
  - thatswrong0 10y ago
    Feel this way about Lyft in SF. I very rarely have bad experiences with Lyft, but with Uber it's been common enough that I only use it when Lyft has no drivers available (which is typically during high surge prices, in which case taking a cab makes more sense).
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - chipgap98 10y ago
    Yeah I feel this way about Lyft in Boston
- lwhsiao 10y ago
  I Use them usually just because the price tends to be slightly cheaper.
- jMyles 10y ago
  Does Uber have cars other than black now?
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    They have had for a long time.
    - jMyles 10y ago
      Haha, I'm not sure how I missed it. I've probably ridden in one. I just mostly use Lyft.
  - bcoates 10y ago
    At least in the LA market, Uber's cheapest level of service appears to accept any car that can wedge in 5 adults. I've been picked up by sub-compacts and 20th century Corollas on UberX.
- skciva 10y ago
  Drivers I know prefer Lyft because it pays out better. Combine this with the fact that its slightly cheaper (where I am at least) makes Lyft over Uber a no brainer for me.
  - et-al 10y ago
    On average, Lyft Line has actually been a bit more expensive than Uber Pool here in SF, but Lyft pays and treats drivers better, so I'd rather have the difference go to the guy trying to make a buck. Also, if Uber beats the competition, I doubt they're going to keep fares as cheap as they are. Be prepared for fares to double.
  - philwelch 10y ago
    This is also more or less the exact formula for Lyft being less valuable than Uber as a company.
- ProAm 10y ago
  I too prefer Lyft. In my city the drivers are friendlier and verbally indicate they like working for Lyft much more than Uber (most work for both). Better customer experience.
- eridius 10y ago
  Not only does Lyft pay drivers better, but Uber has done far too many scummy things for me to want to ever use them again.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  The way it was explained to me by someone who drives for both Uber and Lyft (which isn't a common thing, by the way, contrary to popular belief): Prospective Lyft drivers actually have to undergo an orientation where they are essentially screened and given basic training by a Lyft driver. Prospective Uber drivers, on the other hand, can start working right away without even a face-to-face meeting with anyone. All they have to do is apply online. Not sure how accurate this is, but anecdotally, I've always noticed that Lyft drivers have better customer service skills than Uber drivers, and are more personable.
  - pimlottc 10y ago
    > someone who drives for both Uber and Lyft (which isn't a common thing, by the way, contrary to popular belief) Really? Do you have any numbers on that? Every I've talked to who has done one has done both. > Prospective Uber drivers, on the other hand, can start working right away without even a face-to-face meeting with anyone. All they have to do is apply online. It's not quite "right away", you still have to go through a background screening, which can take quite a while. With Lyft, I had my mentor orientation the day after I applied and was approved 3 days after. Uber, on the the hand, while not requiring an in-face meeting, took 3 weeks to finally approve me, after requiring additional documentation regarding my driving record on my previous license.
- XJOKOLAT 10y ago
  Exactly.
- cozzyd 10y ago
  Lyft allows tips, which is nice (since <5 starring people is a death sentence, it provides a better way of differentiating between great and sucky). Both suffer from the problem of having clueless suburbanites drivers who often have no idea how to get around the city. It'd be nice if it were possible to filter on drivers who actually live in the city...
  - amyjess 10y ago
    > since <5 starring people is a death sentence, it provides a better way of differentiating between great and sucky On the other hand, since Lyft won't match you with a driver again if you rate them 3 stars or less, that gives incentive to give low ratings to drivers you don't want to be matched with ever again. I haven't had many of those, but I'm glad the option is there when it's come up: for example, texting while driving is an automatic 3 and a flag for safety, if not a 1. I don't want to ride with people who are liable to get me killed. Attempting to give me religious tracts is an automatic 1 (yes, this actually happened). Being creepy to me in general is a 1 (see: the guy who insisted on repeatedly screenshotting the Lyft app with my profile picture visible while I was in the car with him). People who make me sit in the back, especially when their front seat is completely empty, are an automatic 3 unless they make up for it by being a really great conversationalist (and I've learned to always cancel on people with vans, because they like to electronically open their sliding doors as soon as I start walking to their vehicle) Sadly, this is a feature Uber doesn't have. With Uber, you can't do anything to make sure you're never matched with a particular driver again. I just wish Lyft also added a "never match me with this person again" option when cancelling rides or when being cancelled on... I have a handful of drivers I will never ride with because they were utter dicks to me when finding where I am. This includes a few people who, in an office park in the suburbs, parked a block or two way and demanded I walk. Then there was one guy who parked at the hospital across the street (a six-lane arterial with no traffic light in sight) from where I was and had the gall to send the signal that he was here: I called him to tell him he's at the wrong location, he responded "I'm at the hospital", and as soon as I said I'm somewhere else, he shouted "CALL ANOTHER!" at me and cancelled on me. Or the guy who texted me to demand I text him my address and then cancelled on me when I told him I already put my destination into the app. I've just had to memorize their names and remember to cancel whenever I'm matched with them.
- r00fus 10y ago
  I think Uber is run by jerks, and want to vote with my wallet? I am not a big fan of the idea of secret-sauce surge pricing. I also take cabs when it's feasible and not significantly (ie, 2x) more expensive than Lyft/Uber (though most of that travel is expensed).

tptacek 10y ago

So is it reasonable to surmise that what's happening here is: Lyft has a 1.2B cash reserve, ~400MM/yr in revenue, isn't profitable, and has now hit the end of the line on "unicorn" infusions at favorable terms. It's locked in a total war with Uber, which it cannot win or even stalemate while simultaneously shielding its reserves to keep an adequate runway to profitability. So, since it can't win the race against Uber, its prospects are greatly diminished, and the greatest value it might hold is as someone else's strategic asset. Or is it something more fundamental than that?

mathattack 10y ago
I would add that their flanking Uber internationally (China) failed. Whoever purchases them would want some asset whose value isn't tied to fighting Uber head-to-head. Perhaps the network could be valuable to Google? I notice that Waze seems to be inching in that direction, and perhaps they could get value from the mapping too. The ride-sharing market seems to have network effects, which means the service with 80% of the market will get much more than 80% of the profit.
- joelrunyon 10y ago
  I believe Google has a not-insignificant stake in Uber already. Would be interesting to see them on both sides.
  - supster 10y ago
    Google is in a really interesting spot: - They own a significant stake in Uber via GV (formerly Google Ventures) - They own Google Maps, which everyone relies on at the moment - They own the most advanced self driving car and are closest to Level 4 autonomy - They own Waze, and have a significant community there In my mind they should acquire Lyft, let it run as is. Then when they are ready to go primetime with their self driving cars, start piloting them as a cheaper/free option within the Lyft app. If the pilot works, expand the cars nationwide and aggressively finance the fleet using their balance sheet.

aresant 10y ago

Travis Kalanick made an succinct observation on ridesharing's future yesterday: "If we are not tied for first [in autonomous vehicle rollout], then the person who is in first. . . rolls out a ride-sharing network that is far cheaper or far higher-quality than Uber's, and Uber is no longer a thing," Kalanick said."(1) Lyft has raised ~$2b at a recent $5.5b valuation, Uber has raised ~$9b at a $85b valuation. Lyft is able to somewhat compete with Uber on today's ground war of drivers & customer acquisition, but unlikely to compete in tomorrow's war of autonomous without a partner. The recent $500m round Lyft got from GM clearly has GM positioned as takeout partner - GM brings the autonomous / Lyft brings the customers. What I bet happened here is that Lyft tried to power move GM with some large stalking-horse bids, the tactic backfired, and now GM is leaking to put pressure on Lyft to accept a diminished offer. (1) http://www.businessinsider.com/travis-kalanick-interview-on-self-driving-cars-future-driver-jobs-2016-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/travis-kalanick-interview-on-...

berberous 10y ago
Just FYI, it's stalking horse, not stocking horse.
- aresant 10y ago
  Updated! Learned something today, thanks
  - samstokes 10y ago
    Along similar lines, I think you meant "astute observation" [1], not "succinct observation" [2]. The latter is accurate, since he didn't use too many words to get his point across, but probably not what you intended to point out :) [1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astute http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astute [2] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/succinct http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/succinct
MichaelApproved 10y ago
I believe that everything will reset when automated cars come out. Whomever is in the lead now will not matter because automated rides will be such a game-changer that it'll reset the entire market.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

pasbesoin 10y ago

In my (limited) circle, I often hear Uber mentioned. I never hear mention of Lyft. Paywall is keeping me out of the NYT article, at the moment, but I wonder whether Lyft is simply on the losing slope of a plot of momentum, at this point. Shame, as I am not very fond of Uber's business practices. Though I don't know that Lyft is any better.

jjnoakes 10y ago
Uber vs Lyft seems to be very location-dependent. So I'm not surprised that individual anecdotes list one or the other as favored among their circles.
delecti 10y ago
Uber is almost at "google" levels of generic trademark, where people say to call an uber as a generic for any rideshare ride.
bcoates 10y ago
I know a lot of people prefer Lyft as a first resort but to me it has two serious problems: * Lyft doesn't let you book a ride by web or sms, which means in an emergency, I can't cadge a ride easily at a web cafe, library, laptop at a Starbucks, borrowed phone, etc. Lyft is optional, having a working m.uber.com login is a survival skill. * I've never experienced the level of drivers outright misbehaving and fucking with passengers in an Uber that I semi-frequently experience as a friend's guest in a Lyft. I don't know if it's culture or what, but Lyft drivers seem to feel comfortable doing things like picking a location and ditching you or not accepting your instructions to drive a particular place, which as far as I can tell is a "never drive for us again" infraction over at Uber and the drivers know it.
- nefitty 10y ago
  What city are you in? I've never experienced a terrible ride like that from Lyft, and I use it exclusively, almost every day. The weirdest experience was a driver offering to take me to a weed dispensery to buy weed for me. And that was him tryin to be nice! Besides that it's just maybe tired or awkward drivers who can't hold a conversation...

bcoates 10y ago

I'm honestly a little surprised Uber and Lyft can't manage a duopoly, considering how many miles ahead of the nearest competitors they are and how many mutual enemies they have.

Animats 10y ago
Competition is so last-cen. You need a monopoly, so you can screw over the customers. Read Peter Thiel, "Competition is for losers".[1] "If you corner the market for something, you can jack up the price; others will have no choice but to buy from you." [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-losers-1410535536 http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-l...
- smnscu 10y ago
  Your quote is taken a bit out of context, but still – I already didn't like Peter Thiel, this further reinforces my impression of him being a scummy, shady character.
  - Animats 10y ago
    Name one "unicorn" with a competitor that's at least half its size. In automotive, GM, Ford, Toyota, and Chrysler have been plugging away for decades, and all have US market shares within a 2:1 range. We're not seeing that in new businesses.
    - dharmon 10y ago
      I thought your grandparent post was being facetious, but are you being serious with this one? Here's off the top of my head: Airbnb, Xiaomi, Flipkart, Pinterest, Snapchat (if you count instagram as a competitor), Zenefits, Didi until last week, Dropbox, Theranos, Snapdeal, Slack. Now that I think about it, it's probably much harder to come up with unicorns that do have a monopoly.
      - 10y ago

amelius 10y ago

Isn't transportation a "commodity" service? And if so, how can Uber's and Lyft's valuation be explained then? I'm not an economist, but I would predict that the future of personal transportation is going to look like a race to the bottom, just like what is happening to cable companies (who transport data instead of people, and actually own some important infrastructure to keep their quasi monopolies up).

krschultz 10y ago
I 100% agree. Uber would like to own a 2 sided marketplace like Ebay, in which case it's nearly winner take all. The dynamics of ridesharing don't seem to match up with that. Every driver in NYC has 2 or 3 phones running multiple apps, the supply is not constrained to any particular network. Autonomous cars owned independently would obviously be smart enough to take the ride with the highest revenue. Thus the marketplaces are going to have to compete based on how much they pass through to the car owners. The margins are going to be paper thin.
yalogin 10y ago
True but that is too theoretical and way in the future at this point. Uber will just become the service provider. That is their goal to become the PG&E of transportation.

justinzollars 10y ago

Why is everyone so afraid of going public?

dredmorbius 10y ago
Oh, you with your pesky questions. Aren't the emperor's clothes simply fabulous?
erobbins 10y ago
Because it brings accountability.
- justinzollars 10y ago
  I want accountability.

kinofcain 10y ago

If Uber is investing heavily in self-driving cars, there's a case to be made that Lyft represents a "purer" investment in ride-sharing without assuming the cost/risk of that massive expenditure. Uber is betting that they'll be first to self-driving cars, Lyft is betting it will be any one of a dozen companies that aren't Uber. I think that's a pretty reasonable bet. If/when self-driving cars hit there's no way they'll be limited to ride sharing, so the chance that Lyft will be able to benefit from general availability is high.

trestles 10y ago
I agree there is not a great difference in the places I am mostly (SF and LA) but I think Uber was smart to bring on a lot of cheap capital the past few years.

chrisabrams 10y ago

I'm not surprised: I've only done one Lyft ride in my life. I arrived into Newark Airport and needed to get to New York City. Uber had a 3x surge, so I downloaded the Lyft app. I saw that Lyft was offering $5 if I did their ride share option, so I chose it. - Driver picks me up quickly, no problem - Driver makes 3 loops around the airport to pick up my ride share, but she cannot understand the Lyft app's GPS/map and is unable to find the person. - Driver decides to just leave the airport without picking the ride share person - Lyft app cancels other ride share's ride AND my ride, while at this point we are on the high way. - Lyft driver tells me to re-request the ride, but after a couple of attempts, I am unable to pair back with the driver whom's car I am in (kept pairing me with other drivers) - Eventually I get out of the car, on the side of the highway, and order an Uber. - Because I'm not in the airport geofence, I didn't get a surge :O

econner 10y ago
Is it possible that your experience is not representative?
karma_vaccum123 10y ago
Wait...what? The Lyft driver ordered you out of the vehicle on the shoulder of the highway?? Because his own app isn't functioning??? How does this person still have a driver's license let alone a job? If that was me, I would have told him, "tough luck, sorry your app sucks, but I'm not getting out of this car, feel free to phone the police...sure they would be interested in hearing about your plan to drop me off on the highway shoulder..."
- chrisabrams 10y ago
  They didn't order me out of the car; I actually chose to get out and order an Uber because this driver took me to a random warehouse area off the highway. They said if we waited there a few minutes that the app would let us pair up and then they could drive me. I didn't feel safe so I decided to not participate any longer; I requested an Uber near the highway entrance ramp.

rezashirazian 10y ago

I know HN is not a big fan of proverbs but "Great companies are not sold, they are bought" rings a little too true in this case.

jondubois 10y ago

The ride-sharing hype train ran out of investors. I struggle to think of a company who would want to buy Lyft. The most interesting one which comes to mind is Didi Chuxing. Though given how much money they wasted competing with Uber in China and then buying Uber out of China; I don't think Didi has much cash left (or interest) to buy Lyft in order to compete with Uber on US soil - They probably just want to bury the hatchet with Uber and each plow their own fields. I don't think Uber would buy Lyft for several reasons: - Uber started cutting back on spending - Probably not the best time for acquisitions. - Such an acquisition could raise antitrust issues. - Uber knows that there aren't many potential buyers for Lyft - Uber may be tempted to just wait it out and let Lyft go out of business - Then Uber can pick up most of Lyft's old customers for free. I would not want to be a Lyft employee right now; especially not the kind who has stock options.

flylib 10y ago

this is playing right into Uber's hand's, part of their fundraising strategy was to scare investors from putting more money into Lyft and it may be finally paying off. Now Lyft won't be in a position of leverage when they have to sell themselves as no one wants them at their current price and acquirers will know Lyft is running out of options and will be 1/4 of the price by the end of 2017