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Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- roadnottaken 10y ago"This is the first known fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated," states a post on Tesla's corporate website. "Among all vehicles in the U.S., there is a fatality every 94 million miles. Worldwide, there is a fatality approximately every 60 million miles. It is important to emphasize that the NHTSA action is simply a preliminary evaluation to determine whether the system worked according to expectations."
- burnguy123 10y agoFrom what I understand, the autopilot can only be used on highways. I would suspect that highway travel is much safer per mile in the first place. Are we comparing highway driving with autopilot to regular mixed city/highway driving?
- roadnottaken 10y agoGood question
- semi-extrinsic 10y agoAlso, those averages are over the entire car population, with a median age of around ten years and an average crash safety rating relatively far below that of a Model S.
- seizethecheese 10y agoHighways are the most dangerous environment. High speed combined with cross traffic. City streets don't have enough speed usually for crashes be lethal.
- malka 10y agowhat ? highways in the US have cross traffic ? In my country, the ABSENCE of such traffic is almost the definition for highways.
- ferrisford 10y agoIt's common to use the term 'freeway' or 'Interstate' (meaning Interstate Highway/Freeway) to refer to controlled access highways in the US. There's lots of highways in the US that are just 2 lanes, one in each direction, with a speed limit of 55mph and cross traffic from smaller roads that should stop first before turning on the highway in either direction. These are what we usually mean with the word 'highway'.
- knd775 10y agoHighway accidents are more likely to be fatal, though. Since we are talking about fatalities and not just accidents, this is definitely a factor.
- steve19 10y agoAre users running Autopilot during hazardous conditions such as heavy rain and snow? If not, comparing auto pilot deaths with average deaths per mile is disingenuous.
- tdaltonc 10y agoWhat would be an ingenuous comparison?
- cynix 10y agoYes. Apparently Autopilot sees lane markings better than humans in heavy rain.
- bennettfeely 10y agoAnd snow and ice?
- nathanaldensr 10y agoI wonder what the driver was doing when the vehicle crashed. Tesla says that the driver is ultimately responsible for controlling the vehicle but then provides a system that is likely result in the driver not paying attention--sleeping, reading, or otherwise being distracted. How can Tesla and the governments that license drivers resolve this situation?
- henrikschroder 10y agoAny concession means that the driver somehow isn't ultimately responsible, which is a situation noone wants to end up in. It's also ridiculous.
- semi-extrinsic 10y agoBoth Mercedes and Volvo have publicly stated they are taking full responsibility for any accidents which occur during use of their semi-autonomous systems. Tesla needs to step up, or it will hurt their public image.
- henrikschroder 10y agoThat's probably very easy to say before you have a product on the market. Let's see if they change their tune afterwards. I also wonder if that would encourage more risky behaviour from users or less.
- semi-extrinsic 10y agoHave you seen a 2016 Mercedes E-class? It has autonomous systems on essentially the same level as a Tesla, just without the flashy "Autopilot" branding. The new S-class coming out next year is going to have a lot more autonomous features on top of that, including Lidar (which Tesla lacks).
- cynix 10y ago> on essentially the same level as a Tesla Actually, it appears to be nowhere near the level of a Tesla. http://mashable.com/2016/06/16/2017-mercedes-benz-e-class-first-drive/ http://mashable.com/2016/06/16/2017-mercedes-benz-e-class-fi...
- wldcordeiro 10y agoSo if I read it right the trailer merged from a Lane next to the Tesla? So the trucker had the Tesla in a blind spot? The article is vague.
- evan_ 10y agoSounds like it was crossing the highway. > [...] a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss
- dmoy 10y agoSounds to me like incoming traffic making a left turn, but again, vague.
- Jemmeh 10y ago"the highway perpendicular" it says. Neither noticed it "against a brightly lit sky". I take that as the truck was crossing the street (from a side street) in front of the car, but because of the sun blinding the sensors and the driver, the car didn't stop.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tfinniga 10y agoMore information here: https://www.levyjournalonline.com/police-beat.html https://www.levyjournalonline.com/police-beat.html Relevant section: In a separate crash on May 7 at 3:40 p.m. on U.S. 27 near the BP Station west of Williston, a 45-year-old Ohio man was killed when he drove under the trailer of an 18-wheel semi. The top of Joshua Brown’s 2015 Tesla Model S vehicle was torn off by the force of the collision. The truck driver, Frank Baressi, 62, Tampa was not injured in the crash. The FHP said the tractor-trailer was traveling west on US 27A in the left turn lane toward 140th Court. Brown’s car was headed east in the outside lane of U.S. 27A. When the truck made a left turn onto NE 140th Court in front of the car, the car’s roof struck the underside of the trailer as it passed under the trailer. The car continued to travel east on U.S. 27A until it left the roadway on the south shoulder and struck a fence. The car smashed through two fences and struck a power pole. The car rotated counter-clockwise while sliding to its final resting place about 100 feet south of the highway. Brown died at the scene. Charges are pending. Here is a google maps view of the accident location: https://goo.gl/maps/SSKyoxhoaxp https://goo.gl/maps/SSKyoxhoaxp
- johansch 10y agohttp://jalopnik.com/volvo-engineer-calls-out-tesla-for-dangerous-wannabe-au-1773519459 http://jalopnik.com/volvo-engineer-calls-out-tesla-for-dange...
- icebraining 10y agoAll he's saying is that the Tesla system requires an attentive driver, which is something that Tesla themselves have stressed. It's just a PR piece.
- karyon 10y agodiscussion is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011419
- GrinningFool 10y agoMy sympathies to the people who built the systems that make Autopilot possible. Even knowing it was statistically bound to happen eventually, this has to weigh heavily from the "damn, I should've thought of this once-in-a-130-m-miles corner case" perspective.
- jholloway7 10y agoUnlike many other fatal crashes, however, they presumably now have data from the corner case they can use to regression test every future release of the system.
- netinstructions 10y agoTesla's statement[1] provides some more details > What we know is that the vehicle was on a divided highway with Autopilot engaged when a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied. Failing to detect the white side of a tractor against a brightly lit sky is something I can see camera/image based sensors struggling with, but not LIDAR based sensors. [1] https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss
- at-fates-hands 10y agoThis is going to be a major morality issue with self driving cars. What if a deer crosses the road? Will the car hit the deer to save the life of the driver? Avoid the deer to avoid an accident? Or save the deer and run into the ditch, possibly harming the driver? Unfortunately, this technology is not capable of making those decisions and if ultimately the driver is responsible, then maybe we should just keep it that way then.
- techthroway443 10y agoRapidly apply brakes. Seems like the safest possible way to avoid the deer without causing injury to driver + possibly others.
- massysett 10y ago"Or save the deer and run into the ditch, possibly harming the driver?" This is not even a slight morality issue. The person is more important than the deer. "Unfortunately, this technology is not capable of making those decisions" Of course it is. Program the machine so that its primary concern is protection of human life. Which should be its secondary concern (protection of property or protection of deer) is a more interesting question. But running into the ditch to save the deer while threatening harm to the driver is simply not an option.
- NeutronBoy 10y ago> In the blog post, Tesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I absolutely disagree with this, and it should not be used as a 'get out' clause from Tesla. If you work with non-technical people on technical issues on a day to day basis you'll understand why - non-technical people literally don't understand what stuff like this means. They'll read it, then say 'Oh but they installed it in my car anyway so it must be safe', and use it anyway.
- gshulegaard 10y agoBeware clickbait and intentional inflammatory posturing. I noticed The Verge selectively quoted Tesla without directly linking to the source (although it was part of Elon's tweet): https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss The full context of the agreement: "It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public beta phase before it can be enabled. When drivers activate Autopilot, the acknowledgment box explains, among other things, that Autopilot “is an assist feature that requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times," and that "you need to maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle” while using it. Additionally, every time that Autopilot is engaged, the car reminds the driver to “Always keep your hands on the wheel. Be prepared to take over at any time.” The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again." So the key here is that Tesla autopilot is a driver assist but is positioned such that the driver needs to remain alert and able to assume control of the vehicle at any moment. So when it is said, "Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed..." it is critical to note that ultimately the driver failed to control their vehicle. Personally, I find this reasonable.
- saulrh 10y ago> The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again I don't care much about the user agreement, but this should mean that the driver had their hands on the wheel when this happened. Does we know if it requires both hands on the wheel, or can you placate the car with one hand while you read reddit with the other?
- techthroway443 10y agoShould we be calling the technology Autopilot? I feel like the name implies more autonomy than it provides inadvertently misleading people.
- United857 10y agoTesla itself refers to it as Autosteer in the in-car UI (but Autopilot in its marketing materials).
- tlrobinson 10y agoTesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I'm happy to let you all beta test this one for me.
- ibrahima 10y agoI can see why Volvo criticized Tesla for rolling out a system that's not fully autonomous. If drivers are willfully distracted because they think the car will handle any situation, that's a very dangerous place to be in. Though it's not clear what the driver was doing in this situation, so it's possible that this would have been a fatal crash in any other car without autopilot as well.
- themgt 10y agoA company's "public beta phase" system named "Autopilot" just drove a customer head-first into a trailer and killed them, at least in part due to inadequate sensor hardware that seems unlikely a software update can remedy. Tesla really ought to take a step back and consider the damage they may do to their brand if they start killing customers and blaming the dead person for having trusted a Tesla product.
- michaeldwan 10y agoOddly, the guy who was killed got a dash cam video of Autopilot avoiding another collision earlier this year http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12072634/tesla-autopilot-crash-autonomous-mode-viral-video http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12072634/tesla-autopilot-c...