28 ms·

Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

497 points by be5invis 10y ago

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
I am frankly surprised that she's the first one who's tried taking Microsoft to court. I kind of anticipated that there would be a class action lawsuit after Microsoft made Windows 10 a "recommended" update--meaning anyone who had their Win 7 or 8 machines set to install recommended updated automatically would get updated without being made aware of it.
- drakonandor 10y ago
  No matter what they do, the users would complain. By leaving the settings on recommended, the user said she wants free IT support from Microsoft. Microsoft, like any other IT dept. would, made the decision to upgrade to an OS which will work better for everyone. Sadly, a small amount of users don't understand why they can't keep using the same $200 Dell from 1999 forever - just like many users can't understand why Microsoft can't and shouldn't support obsolete operating systems forever.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Not fair! She was using it fine. It suddenly failed, due to events completely independent of it being a $200 Dell or whatever. She wasn't installing new apps, and her old ones served her well. No, this debacle was entirely of Microsofts' creation.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    With all the complaints about Windows 10, I haven't seen a demand for ongoing Microsoft support. I've seen a lot of people say that Microsoft can't and won't support previous versions of their OSes forever, and I don't think many people would have a problem with that.
  - bowlich 10y ago
    I made the rounds to my relatives last year and upgraded everyone's 15+ year old PCs from "Windows" to "Lubuntu." It's like breathing fresh life into an old machine. A huge chunk of users have no need for a new computer, or a new operating system for that matter. They want to have a web browser, e-mail and open documents. For some, that's meant switching over to using a tablet. But for others, they just want to keep using the machine they've got. And it's not even really a Windows vs Linux thing. If Microsoft would continue to provide security updates for their old OSes or make a paired down version of their new OSes to work on a minimalist or older machine then I would have upgraded them to that instead.
theandrewbailey 10y ago
The idea of "let's put a popup on everyone's computer telling them they can download the next version of Windows for free" simply reeks of malware shit. Even worse is when they decided to force it on everyone else who doesn't automatically click "OK" on every dialog box they see.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  I kinda understand the mindset. In IT, we learn that pretty much everyone will be clueless on how to do something unless you make it nearly impossible for them to not. So when Microsoft's top support question was "how to I upgrade to Windows 10", it doesn't seem out of far field for them to think "how do we make it nearly impossible for them to fail". There's no doubt Microsoft screwed this up for a number of reasons, including valid and important reasons some people need to stay on Windows 7. And had they not gotten into the whole telemetry mess, 90% of the people who didn't want the upgrade would've gone away. But I understood the mindset.
  - jc4p 10y ago
    I agree with you on the IT mindset, but there's a huge difference between getting users in a small company to run updates or whatever the IT need there is vs overriding settings on something someone actually owns. My company's IT has accidentally done things like this before and even when it's on a corporate machine a popup coming up and saying "gonna restart in 5 to do updates" SUCKS while you're working.
  - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
    Automatic, non-consensual updates would be fine, if the laptop were designed for it. Case in point, my Chromebook gets updates all the time, and the little arrow in the corner usually indicates I've got something and that I should restart. I have never, ever had a bad update across any of my Chromebooks. It is done in an elegant, non-intrusive way. The problem here is that in Microsoft's push to get Windows 10 onto as many machines as it can, they seem to have greatly underestimated the number of computers whose age or hardware renders them partially or completely borked by updating to Windows 10. And they seem generally unrepentant to the fact that they've strong-armed people into downloading an update that destroys their computer.
lumberjack 10y ago
Microsoft are trying to following Apple's approach in dealing with users. But I think there is a bit of a difference here. Apple users opted in. They knew how Apple operates before they bought Apple products. The same cannot be said for long time Microsoft customers.
- no_flags 10y ago
  What do you mean by "Apple's approach"? I've never been forced to upgrade the OS on my iPhone or Macbook pro.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    You are not "forced" to upgrade the OS on an iphone, you will just have a pop up window every day asking you if you want to upgrade now or tonight. You have a choice!
    - r00fus 10y ago
      And for each, it respects your wishes. That it's annoying is besides the point, also you're not getting telemetry forcibly installed, either. It's only a dot release that contains security updates.
      - cm2187 10y ago
        It certainly contains security updates, but also the opportunity to nag me a little more with apple music, icloud, apple pay, etc... But it's all for my own good!
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    Forced, no. Incessantly bothered, yes. iOS in specific starts popping up modal dialogs once it sees a new update.
    - JeremyBanks 10y ago
      Microsoft and Apple try to protect users from themselves. Users get angry. Users get hacked. Users get angry again.
bitmapbrother 10y ago
This is one of many more to come. Forcing people to install your new OS without their consent is scum bag behavior. With Apple I'm given the option to upgrade to a new version of the OS. On Windows, they want to cram it down your throat and hope for the best. And I won't even get into all of the psychological ploys they use to try and trick users into upgrading to Windows 10.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
There are many helpful things about Windows 10 - security, update, performance. Then there's the new screwed-up interface. If they'd staged these two, or offered them separately, there'd be less resistance.
- dgritsko 10y ago
  What do you mean by "screwed-up interface"? After using 10 (upgraded from 7) for the last few months, I can only say that the interface is better. Any changes that I've noticed have been improvements, so I'm genuinely curious as to what you're referring to.
  - AnkhMorporkian 10y ago
    Agreed. The only complaints I have are about the start menu tiles, and those are easily removed.
  - ak217 10y ago
    In my experience, Windows 10 is a poor upgrade from Windows 7 on laptops and desktops. The interface is a buggy, half-hearted attempt to roll back the trainwreck that is Windows 8 to something resembling 7, except 7 still works better since it doesn't have to deal with all the Metro (tablet/touch interface) bits. For now I'm keeping Windows 7 with manual updates - while loathing the fact that I have to use Windows at all - and I suspect there are a lot of people like me.
    - whatever_dude 10y ago
      Coming from Windows 7, and being completely baffled by 8.x, I feel 10 is an upgrade in most ways. A bit inconsistent in how apps draw/behave, but still an upgrade.
      - tdkl 10y ago
        If I punched you in the face (Windows 8) the slapped you after (Windows 10), you'd find the slap quite an upgrade as well. It still doesn't mean it's pleasant (halfassed Settings).
euroclydon 10y ago
Moving from XP to Windows 7 actually sped up a single core 32bit PC I have at home, but then the Win 10 installer filled up the hard drive, and consumed 50% CPU for months before I finally found a nice utility to completely remote it, and keep it gone. It was infuriating!!
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Funny how its installer seem to not even do a basic check of disk space and computer capabilities before start to download loads of data If let's say, the installer takes 10GB it shouldn't start downloading anything unless there's at least 20GB
  - jerf 10y ago
    I tried to update my wife's lil' tabletish Acer netbooky thing, because while I don't like the pushiness I did like Windows 10. And it's been pestering us with little popups for weeks at that point. I go to update it, and it says, Sorry, Windows is 64-bit only. This is when I discover the machine that I purchased only about 2 years ago now was actually 32-bit. Didn't even know they were still making them at that time. IIRC it bailed out in the first phase before downloading everything, but, still, couldn't the little popup check something as basic as bittedness? Also IIRC it didn't stop bothering us until I went and did some registry hack or something to make it shut up, as it was just taunting us at that point. But I'm less confident about this aspect of my memory.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Huh? I upgraded a 32-bit version of Win10 without any problem. So they exist. Maybe not for every platform?
      - lfowles 10y ago
        I was unable to upgrade my wife's old 32bit computer, but I think it was some other bit of CPU capability that was the stopper. Edit: It was NX bit support.
dmfdmf 10y ago
I'm not a fan of class action law suits but if there ever was a case it should be applied this is it.
- pkaye 10y ago
  With a class action lawsuit, the lawyers will get millions while the rest of us will get a coupon for a free upgrade to windows as settlement.
  - dmfdmf 10y ago
    Precisely why I am generally not a supporter of class action lawsuits
  - morninj 10y ago
    In theory, at least, a class action lawsuit would also deter Microsoft and others from forcing bad OS updates on users.
  - incongruity 10y ago
    I wonder if there's a term for the more general concept - rules are put in place to help/empower the individual/less powerful only to have the system corrupted by the powerful interests already in existence. "Regulatory capture" is also an example of this idea but I think there's a larger pattern.
  - greenshackle 10y ago
    I know class action lawyers who work incredibly hard to defend the 'small people' and don't make that much. They take David vs Goliath cases. They went after a tobacco company, for example. The lawsuits take a lot of work, they only get paid if they win, and they don't always win. I'm sure there are class action lawyers who are in it for the money, but most lawyers who are in it for the money would go into corporate law, not class action.
    - RHSeeger 10y ago
      While I don't doubt that there are lawyers who are very much in it for the small guy, I can count on one hand the number of class action lawsuits I've seen where the outcome for the small guys in question is anything more substantial than a coupon. That's assuming you consider 0 fingers as a valid count on one hand. (I don't doubt such cases exist, but I've never seen one).
wnevets 10y ago
Think of all of the wasted effort and money because microsoft didn't force people off of IE6 quick enough.
- spriggan3 10y ago
  > Think of all of the wasted effort and money because microsoft didn't force people off of IE6 quick enough. You can't tell the difference between upgrading a single app and and an entire OS ?
  - wnevets 10y ago
    When it comes to IE is there much difference?IE versions are tied directly to OS versions.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Fun fact: The web sucks a LOT less if you spoof IE6 in your user agent. Almost every evil that can be given to you will be spared. No pop-overs, no javascript lazy loaders, basically anything with a framework behind it will treat you like a human again. It's wonderful.
Guest98123 10y ago
A few days ago I was visiting family, and my Mom was online Skyping relatives on her Windows 7 PC. She comes running into the other room and says her PC just restarted while she was talking, and now it says something about configuring Windows 10, even though she was always careful to opt-out of the constant requests to upgrade. So, we had to wait for it to install the OS, then decline the terms of service, then wait for it to roll-back to the previous OS. I'm using Windows 10 and enjoy it, but I'm still tempted to migrate to another OS just because of these practices.
- gbrown 10y ago
  I wonder if stories like this are why Skype is so completely broken on Linux. If it worked, far more people would be comfortable switching.
  - dangerlibrary 10y ago
    I'm friends with a dev I respect that recently took a job on the Skype team. Skype is completely broken everywhere, because the code is a nightmare and people are scared to make changes - any change will break something. Linux is probably just low priority on a very long list of things that are terrible/broken about Skype.
    - realusername 10y ago
      I was about to say the same thing, is there any platform Skype is actually reliable ? I had problems with Linux, Windows and Android.
  - morninj 10y ago
    Hmm--I've had no trouble with Skype on Ubuntu 14.04 or 16.04. I only use it every few weeks, though.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  You're missing the point. Your computer is there to update itself. Your use is purely secondary. ;)
gldev 10y ago
If they promise to remove the botnet entirely i'd be in.
- benbristow 10y ago
  What botnet? Take off your Tinfoil hat.
  - gldev 10y ago
    No need to get agressive, i just don't like microsoft forcing their telemetry stuff.
  - Spivak 10y ago
    Calling it a botnet is meant to highlight that it's MS who is ultimately in control and a machine running W10 obeys them before the user. If we're going for accuracy, it should probably be called spyware.
    - Nullabillity 10y ago
      Spyware would be accurate if it was just the telemetry, botnet is correct since Windows Update essentially acts as a C&C system.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    They report every executable you run to check against a malware database. If you're using any software that isn't licensed or have cracks, those get reported too. This occurs even if you turn off all the reporting on the initial account setup.
- coderdude 10y ago
  Ahh, HN. I come for the articles but I stay for its cringe-worthy commentary.
Filligree 10y ago
I had about three GB free on my root partition. Windows 10 was automatically installed. Well, partially. You can probably guess what happened; if this had happened to anyone else in the family, their computer would have been effectively bricked. I used to spend most of my time in Linux anyway, but now I'm justifiably scared of booting Windows.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  Windows 10 won't attempt to install unless it has enough space to complete, and they look for 16 GB. So what I suspect actually occurred is that your hypervisor was set up to misreport how much space as available to Windows, so Windows 10 tried to install on the space it thought it had, only to hit the wall on the "real" filesystem below. It is unlikely this ever would have occurred to anyone else in your family, unless they're running Windows in a hypervisor that misreports space.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - jboles 10y ago
    Sounds like the case. I'm guessing it was on an expanding virtual machine disk image, in which case the problem is user error rather than Windows.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    What about if that 16GB gets used up while the install is in progress?
    - blakeyrat 10y ago
      I think one of the 70,000 Microsoft employees just might have thought of that possibility before pushing the update.
      - mickronome 10y ago
HoopleHead 10y ago
Stopped reading at "Reached out..." <vomit>
bluecalm 10y ago
Their practices for downloading updates in Windows 10 itself are not much better. I tried following all the instructions to disable automatic updates on my Windows 10 pro laptop and still they got me with 20 minutes update at the time I needed my computer urgently. Windows behaves like malware these days and it's very sad to see.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Why are you disabling updates in Windows 10? I meant you're already on it. Updates are the most valuable security defense (next to never using anti-virus as it's a massive attack vector).
  - ionised 10y ago
    Because Windows updates break things sometimes. In fact they do so fairly frequently.
    - dingo_bat 10y ago
      No they don't. This is bulshit.
  - bluecalm 10y ago
    I just don't want them to be automatic. I want to have control over time they are installed so I can, you know, have my computer available when it's needed and do maintenance when it's not needed. Apparently Windows 10 randomly resets the update settings though so it's very hard to avoid surprises. This is just user hostile behavior in my book.
  - noxToken 10y ago
    Because I don't want to have something running full screen only to have the update window quietly popup in the background to auto-shutdown my system in 10 minutes. Because I don't want to sit around for 10 minutes waiting for updates to install before I can pack up my laptop. Because I don't want to arrive somewhere ready to work/play only to have an additional 10 minutes and 2 restarts tacked on to my boot time. Because I don't want to have random lag spikes nor frame drops in games as my system decides that now is the perfect time to download an update. Disabling automatic updates isn't stupid if you're willing to manage them in a sane manner.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jrs235 10y ago
I visited my parents last weekend. My dad says his laptop automatically updated to Windows 10 a month ago and since then he was unable to use the internet (so basically the machine). He was PO'ed. He was tricked into installing it because Microsoft changed the behavior of the upgrade prompt. You can choose "Upgrade now" or "Not now, upgrade later". "Not now, upgrade later" use to behave like and mean "Ask me again later" Microsoft changed it to mean and behave like "Yes. Upgrade me, just not now... force it later". My mother was and has been able to avoid the forced upgrade by always clicking the "X" to close the prompt window and avoiding the dark pattern behavior.
- khedoros 10y ago
  Except that clicking the "x" is the same as clicking "Not now". The current pop-up is basically a notification that the upgrade has been scheduled and will happen. There's some other, smaller text in the window that would let her unschedule the update.
- Splendor 10y ago
  Same here. My mother called me in tears because she was tricked into installing Windows 10 on her PC and she can no longer sync photos from her camera.
  - the_common_man 10y ago
    English is not my first language, so I am curious. When you say 'in tears' are you using some metaphor or was she actually crying?
    - tim333 10y ago
      Usually in English it's not metaphorical.
      - Gustomaximus 10y ago
        Unless it's about laughing. Then it usually is metaphorical.
tacos 10y ago
Meanwhile, Microsoft wins $10,000,000,000 profit by forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10.
vblord 10y ago
Ugh... I missed my opportunity. I upgraded the OS on my iPhone 3G and the thing ran soooo slow after that. It was so slow that it was almost impossible to use it. I should have sued Apple!!!
- chipperyman573 10y ago
  Why would you sue Apple for that? They didn't force you to upgrade and you could have researched any negative effects before you upgraded.
  - 24gttghh 10y ago
    They stated iOS 9 would run on the 4S. It does, but quite painfully. They clearly knew this would happen as they have a very good understanding of the limitations of their own hardware.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    That's BS. Advertising how awesome $vendor is with updating their own hardware but failing to note that it runs like crap, that user should do the research and isn't possible to revert, while nagging you with update notifications should result in a class action suit as well.
- beagle3 10y ago
  You can downgrade an iPhone 3G. Firmware signing started with the 3GS (and IIRC, that one was cracked, only the iPhone 4 and later firmware signing works as intended) I downgraded my 3G. Google "whited00r'
devy 10y ago
Shouldn't this case be a class-action suit? How come there isn't one already?
josefresco 10y ago
Since we're all sharing stories of family tech support - I recently had to give my sister's Toshiba laptop an overhaul, upgraded to Windows 10. That's it... no drama, no problems -sorry. Didn't XP teach us all a lesson about locked in/legacy software and it's danger to the security and stability of modern computing? Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but not my PC OS?
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  > Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but not my PC OS? Except, uh, they don't? My tablet (ASUS P01MA/Z580CA) still runs Lollipop and works fine. My phone (Nexus 5X) pops up with an update every month, but there is no coercion to install it, and it doesn't install it without my approval.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    Precisely. I refuse to update my phone (Sony Z3C) because based on feedback it performs worse in battery life, because Google strongarmed Sony to remove their superior battery optimisation logic (Stamina) and include Googles halfassed one (Doze). So if I'm happy with current configuration, why change it?
- mrweasel 10y ago
  >Didn't XP teach us all a lesson about locked in/legacy software I would agree with anyone claiming that this is a shitty argument: Users to some extend brought this upon themselves, because given the option people would stay on Windows XP or older. All the people that are still on Windows XP, their user experience has just gotten better, no longer is Windows nagging them about updates and security fixes. Microsoft is trying to transition people to rolling upgrades, because users suck at letting go of their old unsafe legacy software. They transitioning in a shitty manor, but I'm not sure they have much choice, other than turn their back to Windows 7 and 8 users. I have co-workers that when they where upgraded to a later version of Windows on our terminal server wanted to know: Can't we just stay on Windows XP. This is people who try to sell consumers what ever happens to be the fashion this month. People that would like nothing better than customers that swap out everything in their home every six month. Everything except the operating system on the computer apparently. Yes, Microsoft has made a shitty move, but on the other end of that spectrum is end users that would have you run Windows XP service pack 27.
hyperpallium 10y ago
Reminds me of how Microsoft launched Xbox One - kinect, always on, no game resale. Which resulted in greater PS4 sales.
davidf18 10y ago
Although I can't speak for Windows 10, in general it is best to upgrade to the newest MS OS because although older versions of Windows get security upgrades, the newest version generally has newer security features that the older versions do not have, some of it taking advantage of newer Intel hardware. I currently run Mac with Windows 10 in Parallels VM.
overgard 10y ago
This is probably a dangerous position as a software developer, but I think we should stop calling these things upgrades. What's being shipped are changes. Whether they're improvements or not is completely subjective. It seems like splitting hairs, but terminology matters. It sounds harmless when you say "Microsoft reserves the right to update your machine" but things are clearer when you say "Microsoft reserves the right to change your machine, on their own schedule", which is effectively the right they've conferred on themselves. Windows 10 (and patches) aren't upgrades, they're changes. They might be better for you, or they might be worse. Nobody should be bullied into changing their machines at a vendor's whims.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  By that logic, there is no such thing as an upgrade. https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/
  - Nullabillity 10y ago
    Which is exactly the point of the GP...?
    - charlesz 10y ago
      A Windows update broke Quickbooks for our entire org over the weekend. Happens more often than you would think. A few months back a Windows update broke Outlook for half our team.
- cm2187 10y ago
  Yeah, it's like my bank "upgrading" me to a Gold account where I will be charged more fees and receive more calls from my bank trying to sell me products...
  - moskie 10y ago
    That is a crappy metaphor.
cm2187 10y ago
What I find surprising is that I see tech journalists reporting the issues, I see people complaining about these forced upgrades and the privacy invasion in windows 10 on forums or around me, but I do not see the press confronting Microsoft on any of this. Has anyone seen any interview where Nadella is pressed with questions on why they think it's OK to treat customer this way? All the interviews I have seen of Microsoft executives have been by docile journalists who prefer to keep their good relationship with the company than ask tough questions.
- johansch 10y ago
  "These aren't real journalists, Richard. They're tech journalists.”
  - cm2187 10y ago
    Or ruminants, 90% of tech articles are barely digested press releases...
sirsuki 10y ago
Windows forced upgrade can be avoided with Never10: https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm Easily Control Automatic and Unwanted Windows 7 & 8.1 Upgrading to Windows 10
- gnoway 10y ago
  I think you can also just uninstall KB3035583 and then 'hide' it from windows update.
  - rubidium 10y ago
    Not quite. I tried that (at least, one of the KB#'s early on) and it kept trying with new updates... so that probably wont solve it for anyone.
  - ChoGGi 10y ago
    rem Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:2952664 /quiet /norestart rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows wusa /uninstall /kb:2990214 /quiet /norestart rem Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements wusa /uninstall /kb:3021917 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /quiet /norestart rem Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1 wusa /uninstall /kb:3035583 /quiet /norestart rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to a later version of Windows wusa /uninstall /kb:3044374 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /quiet /norestart rem Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /quiet /norestart rem Updated capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3123862 /quiet /norestart rem Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3146449 /quiet /norestart
zelon88 10y ago
I was using Windows 7 for a variety of machines with various distros of Ubuntu for the rest when the Windows 10 push started happening. I fought the good fight for as long as I could, but Windows won. I had to switch my remaining Microsoft machines to Ubuntu and haven't looked back since. My wife's machine is the only Windows 7 thing left in the house. Seriously, it's time to dump Microsoft anyway. LibreOffice is top-shelf these days and Linux is only becoming more and more popular. I predict that the trends for Microsoft products will make an impressive downturn if they don't start showing their professional, enterprise, and enthusiast user-base some respect very soon.
ben_jones 10y ago
I was watching a stream of an online gaming tournament (Overwatch) with ~20k viewers. Right before a match one of the competitors machines decided to force a Windows 10 upgrade and they had to reschedule another two teams to play while he waited for everything to finish. It's to the point where Windows OS upgrades are no longer synonymous with new features or better performance, they are 100% associated with annoying and forced upgrade notifications. IMO it invalidates all the awesome OSS work and public outreach Microsoft has been doing. If you gut punch me with your left hand I don't care if you're holding out flowers with your right.
0xmohit 10y ago
This is a gem: A spokesperson for the company told the Seattle Times that it denied any wrongdoing and had dropped the appeal to avoid the additional expense of further litigation. Good that in this case [0], Microsoft didn't sue to kid's parents aside from suing him. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft
Fej 10y ago
Is anyone surprised by this? Just wait until the class action hits.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
amalag 10y ago
A friend accepted the Windows 10 update but then his Asus laptop had some failed windows update and went into a reboot loop. Completely unable to boot. This was 6 months after Windows 10 was released.
apozem 10y ago
Microsoft's dishonest and manipulative tricks to force Windows 10 upgrades are terrible for regular users or people who just aren't ready to make the jump. I have a non-techie friend who works in a veterinary clinic who recently texted me that the computers in her office had gone down after being forcibly upgraded to Windows 10. No computers meant having a hell of a time looking up records for the dogs and what medicine they were supposed to get. Not only is this forced upgrade business unethical, it's potentially dangerous. Some Windows systems haven't been upgraded because they're too important to tinker with.
- gnashville 10y ago
  I can't believe this is still how they operate. How has the company that shipped Windows Vista not figured it out yet?
edoceo 10y ago
I might be the only person who wants Windows 10 but can't get the install to work. I'm going to the MS Redmond campus on Wed to see if anyone there can figure it out.
SN76477 10y ago
Im glad this judgement was passed. It also makes me sad. Microsoft was in the best possible position before Windows10 They could have been the peoples OS. They could have said, 'we listened and this is Win10' Win10 is almost great, forced updates, sketchy snooping and forced accounts sort of ruined it.
627467 10y ago
I was sitting on an exam where we were allowed (although not mandatory) to use a computer to research and write the exam and halfway through reading the exam sheets I noticed my colleague's computer restarts and enters the windows 10 installation mode. It finished half way through our exam time. His computer was useless to him for the exam. This is shameful Microsoft.
jokoon 10y ago
Devil's advocate: windows 10 is awesome as an OS, hardware support is very good.
- xyience 10y ago
  So is <insert other modern OS>. That doesn't mean it should be auto-installed.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  So is haiku.
sev 10y ago
I wonder if Google can/will be held to the same scrutiny for automatically upgrading Chrome?
rwallace 10y ago
A strong brand costs so much to build, is such a valuable asset, I can't think of any commercial motive that would come close to making up for trashing the brands of the company and product like this. So I'm going to conjecture a non-commercial motive: maybe the US government has asked Microsoft to do this to assist with surveillance. No proof, of course, but it's the only scenario I can think of in which this would make sense. The truth will probably come out someday; I'll be interested in seeing whether I was right.
waylandsmithers 10y ago
Good. I'm sure everyone here has a story about someone we know whose windows machine was upgraded. Say what you want about these kinds of court cases, but real emotional distress has been inflicted on so many people by MS by doing this.
randiantech 10y ago
I dont see mandatory updates as a bad thing per se. I think ideally it would be a way to allow users that wants to use older versions to pay a fee to do that (Basically to cover the maintenance service due to keep patching legacy versions). I think its understandable that MS dont want to keep investing in phased out software.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Users don't buy a windows license with an expiration date.
- criddell 10y ago
  > I think its understandable that MS dont want to keep investing in phased out software. I think the problem is that they are phasing out software to replace it with something that few people are asking for. I like Windows 10. I also liked Windows 8.1, 7, Vista, XP, and 2000. I've been using them to do basically the exact same thing for the past 15 years -- run software and manage files. I think any one of them could have been the operating system that Microsoft declares "this is the last one!".
mark_l_watson 10y ago
If I called the shots at Microsoft I would handle things differently: run a series of advertisements warning people that after a certain date, no security updates would be available for old versions of Windows. I would then make it easy and free to update any computer, but I would not force automatic updates. I would explain to the public that for online security that everyone had to always be on the latest version. This may sound harsh, but I think it would be for the most benefit for most people.
Mikeb85 10y ago
I know a student whose computer restarted to upgrade to Windows 10 the day before a paper was due. Needless to say she wasn't very impressed, and will likely never buy a PC again.
trhway 10y ago
time to get a certified copy of the case docs from that court house and visit the local one - sounds like it was a Small Claims, so not much hassle - at least comparing to the annoyance of those notifications and the final insult of the upgrade that still finally happened anyway.
boundring 10y ago
Am I the only one who leaves the Windows Update service entry disabled under the "services" settings? Seriously, it's that simple. I check once a week, tops.
- kayone 10y ago
  >Am I the only one who leaves the Windows Update service entry disabled under the "services" settings? I really hope you are.
- chrisfosterelli 10y ago
  I wouldn't say disabling all security updates is a good solution.
  - boundring 10y ago
    Read a little more carefully: I update when I want my laptop tied up with an inconvenient process. Scheduled, not never at all.
    - chrisfosterelli 10y ago
      Ah, yes sorry. I've heard this advice given often for the "Windows 10 problem", but given to users who definitely would never bother/know to update manually.
  - 5ilv3r 10y ago
    What would you say?
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  You are a responsible administrator, and should be rewarded with system stability and job satisfaction. Good work.
yugai 10y ago
I haven't found anyone using Windows X that thinks it's better than Windows XP. Windows 10 is better than Windows 8 but still worse than XP. My father-in-law was pleased that his Windows 8 was replaced by 10 automatically because he hated it and was about to return his laptop.
- tim333 10y ago
  I prefered 7 to XP. XP used to screw up and need to be restored from a disk image fairly often, 7 not so much.
knodi 10y ago
Finally!! This was so stupid of them. imagine all those people who had a failed upgrade and PC couldn't get to the desktop anymore.
Santosh83 10y ago
As far as I'm concerned the worst aspect of Windows 10 are the forced updates for "unmetered" Internet connection users. As it happens, many of us have wired connections that we pay through the nose for, and as long as MS won't give me an option to control the download of potentially massive updates, I'll continue sticking to my current 8.1. If this is back-ported to 8.1, I'll wipe my last install of Windows and go full-time Linux. MS has no business Forcing me to download stuff that I end-up paying for. The same goes for telemetry that will also presumably consume some fraction of my paid-for bandwidth.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  The metered/non-metered distinction is reasonable, and the behavior that results from it defensible, but the assumption that wired (Ethernet) LAN connections are unmetered is absolutely indefensible, for a number of reasons: 1) Wired WAN connections are, in fact, quite often quota-limited (perhaps with a generous cap, but still limited). 2) A Wired LAN connection may backed by a wireless WAN connection.
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    There's a registry hack for setting wired to metered but I agree, it needs to be fixed. Are you able to add feedback (or +1 mine) on the Feedback Center?
ck2 10y ago
GWX Control Panel http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ Disables virtually all possibilities of auto-upgrades.
- DKnoll3 10y ago
  So does using an OS that respects the user's right to choose, and doesn't rely on trickery to change users to a more commercially friendly platform.
justinlardinois 10y ago
> Her $10,000 figure reflected estimated lost compensation as well as the cost of a new system. The article doesn't go into what she does for a living, so I'll leave the compensation part alone. But why did she need to buy a new computer? Did Windows 10 flash her BIOS? Or is it just the standard "oh my computer is slow, better just buy a new one"?
revanx_ 10y ago
I tried Windows 10, spent 18 hours tweaking and fine tuning until I went too far with disabling the hidden telemetry services (yes W10 has hidden services that you will never see in the MMC but run with an automatic trigger). Went afk which was apparently the trigger condition, two hours later I find my laptop completely locked and unresponsive burning the cpu in some infinite loop. Have to give them credit tho, the telemetry that cannot be disabled does not bypass the software firewall in case you're blocking the ports, at least not from what I have learned in the span of two days.
amluto 10y ago
This doesn't just affect upgrades from earlier versions of Windows to Windows 10. I've seen Windows 10 computers spontaneously become unusable for hours, saying "All your files are exactly where you left them." Real helpful. I haven't personally used Windows in years, but I remember a completely unproductive day at work when we installed a Visual Studio upgrade that look approximately 24 hours to install (might have been 18, or maybe 36 -- I forget) with no option to cancel. At least that was a bug that Microsoft later admitted to and fixed.
CamperBob2 10y ago
Aaaaand, here come the shills. Good job, Microsoft. Everyone who works on the Windows team should be proud. You've built something that you literally can't give away for free without force-feeding it to users, and that can be defended only by downmodding those who object.
- dang 10y ago
  Accusations of astroturfing and shillage are not allowed on HN without evidence. And please don't post comments complaining about downvotes (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11989084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11989084 and marked it off-topic.
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    Not arguing with your decision, but seriously: you don't find the moderation patterns in these threads just a little suspicious? You'll note I didn't accuse anyone specific of shilling.
    - dang 10y ago
      I'm grateful that you didn't accuse anyone specific (that would be worse), but it still degrades the discussion to make this charge without evidence. > you don't find the moderation patterns in these threads just a little suspicious? I don't know exactly what moderation patterns you mean, but for the most part what we see is pretty easily explained. Take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11844253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11844253. We're dead serious when we do find evidence: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20banned%20astroturfer https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR...
more_corn 10y ago
Pick the world you want to live in and go build it. Opt-in: free but chaotic and insecure. Opt-out: more uniform, but imperfect and still messy. Forced updates: it works but in the same way tyranny does. I'm ok with security updates being on by default (and truly important ones being more forceful), but the harder you push the more freedom you take away. Do you want to live in a world where someone takes your choice away because they think they know better?
urbanKeywi 10y ago
BTW, personally I don't like any kind of updates. But I couldn't help updating them, cause always there were irritating alerts.

497 points by be5invis 10y ago

I am frankly surprised that she's the first one who's tried taking Microsoft to court. I kind of anticipated that there would be a class action lawsuit after Microsoft made Windows 10 a "recommended" update--meaning anyone who had their Win 7 or 8 machines set to install recommended updated automatically would get updated without being made aware of it.

drakonandor 10y ago
No matter what they do, the users would complain. By leaving the settings on recommended, the user said she wants free IT support from Microsoft. Microsoft, like any other IT dept. would, made the decision to upgrade to an OS which will work better for everyone. Sadly, a small amount of users don't understand why they can't keep using the same $200 Dell from 1999 forever - just like many users can't understand why Microsoft can't and shouldn't support obsolete operating systems forever.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Not fair! She was using it fine. It suddenly failed, due to events completely independent of it being a $200 Dell or whatever. She wasn't installing new apps, and her old ones served her well. No, this debacle was entirely of Microsofts' creation.
- khedoros 10y ago
  With all the complaints about Windows 10, I haven't seen a demand for ongoing Microsoft support. I've seen a lot of people say that Microsoft can't and won't support previous versions of their OSes forever, and I don't think many people would have a problem with that.
- bowlich 10y ago
  I made the rounds to my relatives last year and upgraded everyone's 15+ year old PCs from "Windows" to "Lubuntu." It's like breathing fresh life into an old machine. A huge chunk of users have no need for a new computer, or a new operating system for that matter. They want to have a web browser, e-mail and open documents. For some, that's meant switching over to using a tablet. But for others, they just want to keep using the machine they've got. And it's not even really a Windows vs Linux thing. If Microsoft would continue to provide security updates for their old OSes or make a paired down version of their new OSes to work on a minimalist or older machine then I would have upgraded them to that instead.

theandrewbailey 10y ago

The idea of "let's put a popup on everyone's computer telling them they can download the next version of Windows for free" simply reeks of malware shit. Even worse is when they decided to force it on everyone else who doesn't automatically click "OK" on every dialog box they see.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
I kinda understand the mindset. In IT, we learn that pretty much everyone will be clueless on how to do something unless you make it nearly impossible for them to not. So when Microsoft's top support question was "how to I upgrade to Windows 10", it doesn't seem out of far field for them to think "how do we make it nearly impossible for them to fail". There's no doubt Microsoft screwed this up for a number of reasons, including valid and important reasons some people need to stay on Windows 7. And had they not gotten into the whole telemetry mess, 90% of the people who didn't want the upgrade would've gone away. But I understood the mindset.
- jc4p 10y ago
  I agree with you on the IT mindset, but there's a huge difference between getting users in a small company to run updates or whatever the IT need there is vs overriding settings on something someone actually owns. My company's IT has accidentally done things like this before and even when it's on a corporate machine a popup coming up and saying "gonna restart in 5 to do updates" SUCKS while you're working.
- AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
  Automatic, non-consensual updates would be fine, if the laptop were designed for it. Case in point, my Chromebook gets updates all the time, and the little arrow in the corner usually indicates I've got something and that I should restart. I have never, ever had a bad update across any of my Chromebooks. It is done in an elegant, non-intrusive way. The problem here is that in Microsoft's push to get Windows 10 onto as many machines as it can, they seem to have greatly underestimated the number of computers whose age or hardware renders them partially or completely borked by updating to Windows 10. And they seem generally unrepentant to the fact that they've strong-armed people into downloading an update that destroys their computer.

lumberjack 10y ago

Microsoft are trying to following Apple's approach in dealing with users. But I think there is a bit of a difference here. Apple users opted in. They knew how Apple operates before they bought Apple products. The same cannot be said for long time Microsoft customers.

no_flags 10y ago
What do you mean by "Apple's approach"? I've never been forced to upgrade the OS on my iPhone or Macbook pro.
- cm2187 10y ago
  You are not "forced" to upgrade the OS on an iphone, you will just have a pop up window every day asking you if you want to upgrade now or tonight. You have a choice!
  - r00fus 10y ago
    And for each, it respects your wishes. That it's annoying is besides the point, also you're not getting telemetry forcibly installed, either. It's only a dot release that contains security updates.
    - cm2187 10y ago
      It certainly contains security updates, but also the opportunity to nag me a little more with apple music, icloud, apple pay, etc... But it's all for my own good!
- Karunamon 10y ago
  Forced, no. Incessantly bothered, yes. iOS in specific starts popping up modal dialogs once it sees a new update.
  - JeremyBanks 10y ago
    Microsoft and Apple try to protect users from themselves. Users get angry. Users get hacked. Users get angry again.

bitmapbrother 10y ago

This is one of many more to come. Forcing people to install your new OS without their consent is scum bag behavior. With Apple I'm given the option to upgrade to a new version of the OS. On Windows, they want to cram it down your throat and hope for the best. And I won't even get into all of the psychological ploys they use to try and trick users into upgrading to Windows 10.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

There are many helpful things about Windows 10 - security, update, performance. Then there's the new screwed-up interface. If they'd staged these two, or offered them separately, there'd be less resistance.

dgritsko 10y ago
What do you mean by "screwed-up interface"? After using 10 (upgraded from 7) for the last few months, I can only say that the interface is better. Any changes that I've noticed have been improvements, so I'm genuinely curious as to what you're referring to.
- AnkhMorporkian 10y ago
  Agreed. The only complaints I have are about the start menu tiles, and those are easily removed.
- ak217 10y ago
  In my experience, Windows 10 is a poor upgrade from Windows 7 on laptops and desktops. The interface is a buggy, half-hearted attempt to roll back the trainwreck that is Windows 8 to something resembling 7, except 7 still works better since it doesn't have to deal with all the Metro (tablet/touch interface) bits. For now I'm keeping Windows 7 with manual updates - while loathing the fact that I have to use Windows at all - and I suspect there are a lot of people like me.
  - whatever_dude 10y ago
    Coming from Windows 7, and being completely baffled by 8.x, I feel 10 is an upgrade in most ways. A bit inconsistent in how apps draw/behave, but still an upgrade.
    - tdkl 10y ago
      If I punched you in the face (Windows 8) the slapped you after (Windows 10), you'd find the slap quite an upgrade as well. It still doesn't mean it's pleasant (halfassed Settings).

euroclydon 10y ago

Moving from XP to Windows 7 actually sped up a single core 32bit PC I have at home, but then the Win 10 installer filled up the hard drive, and consumed 50% CPU for months before I finally found a nice utility to completely remote it, and keep it gone. It was infuriating!!

raverbashing 10y ago
Funny how its installer seem to not even do a basic check of disk space and computer capabilities before start to download loads of data If let's say, the installer takes 10GB it shouldn't start downloading anything unless there's at least 20GB
- jerf 10y ago
  I tried to update my wife's lil' tabletish Acer netbooky thing, because while I don't like the pushiness I did like Windows 10. And it's been pestering us with little popups for weeks at that point. I go to update it, and it says, Sorry, Windows is 64-bit only. This is when I discover the machine that I purchased only about 2 years ago now was actually 32-bit. Didn't even know they were still making them at that time. IIRC it bailed out in the first phase before downloading everything, but, still, couldn't the little popup check something as basic as bittedness? Also IIRC it didn't stop bothering us until I went and did some registry hack or something to make it shut up, as it was just taunting us at that point. But I'm less confident about this aspect of my memory.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Huh? I upgraded a 32-bit version of Win10 without any problem. So they exist. Maybe not for every platform?
    - lfowles 10y ago
      I was unable to upgrade my wife's old 32bit computer, but I think it was some other bit of CPU capability that was the stopper. Edit: It was NX bit support.

dmfdmf 10y ago

I'm not a fan of class action law suits but if there ever was a case it should be applied this is it.

pkaye 10y ago
With a class action lawsuit, the lawyers will get millions while the rest of us will get a coupon for a free upgrade to windows as settlement.
- dmfdmf 10y ago
  Precisely why I am generally not a supporter of class action lawsuits
- morninj 10y ago
  In theory, at least, a class action lawsuit would also deter Microsoft and others from forcing bad OS updates on users.
- incongruity 10y ago
  I wonder if there's a term for the more general concept - rules are put in place to help/empower the individual/less powerful only to have the system corrupted by the powerful interests already in existence. "Regulatory capture" is also an example of this idea but I think there's a larger pattern.
- greenshackle 10y ago
  I know class action lawyers who work incredibly hard to defend the 'small people' and don't make that much. They take David vs Goliath cases. They went after a tobacco company, for example. The lawsuits take a lot of work, they only get paid if they win, and they don't always win. I'm sure there are class action lawyers who are in it for the money, but most lawyers who are in it for the money would go into corporate law, not class action.
  - RHSeeger 10y ago
    While I don't doubt that there are lawyers who are very much in it for the small guy, I can count on one hand the number of class action lawsuits I've seen where the outcome for the small guys in question is anything more substantial than a coupon. That's assuming you consider 0 fingers as a valid count on one hand. (I don't doubt such cases exist, but I've never seen one).

wnevets 10y ago

Think of all of the wasted effort and money because microsoft didn't force people off of IE6 quick enough.

spriggan3 10y ago
> Think of all of the wasted effort and money because microsoft didn't force people off of IE6 quick enough. You can't tell the difference between upgrading a single app and and an entire OS ?
- wnevets 10y ago
  When it comes to IE is there much difference?IE versions are tied directly to OS versions.
5ilv3r 10y ago
Fun fact: The web sucks a LOT less if you spoof IE6 in your user agent. Almost every evil that can be given to you will be spared. No pop-overs, no javascript lazy loaders, basically anything with a framework behind it will treat you like a human again. It's wonderful.

Guest98123 10y ago

A few days ago I was visiting family, and my Mom was online Skyping relatives on her Windows 7 PC. She comes running into the other room and says her PC just restarted while she was talking, and now it says something about configuring Windows 10, even though she was always careful to opt-out of the constant requests to upgrade. So, we had to wait for it to install the OS, then decline the terms of service, then wait for it to roll-back to the previous OS. I'm using Windows 10 and enjoy it, but I'm still tempted to migrate to another OS just because of these practices.

gbrown 10y ago
I wonder if stories like this are why Skype is so completely broken on Linux. If it worked, far more people would be comfortable switching.
- dangerlibrary 10y ago
  I'm friends with a dev I respect that recently took a job on the Skype team. Skype is completely broken everywhere, because the code is a nightmare and people are scared to make changes - any change will break something. Linux is probably just low priority on a very long list of things that are terrible/broken about Skype.
  - realusername 10y ago
    I was about to say the same thing, is there any platform Skype is actually reliable ? I had problems with Linux, Windows and Android.
- morninj 10y ago
  Hmm--I've had no trouble with Skype on Ubuntu 14.04 or 16.04. I only use it every few weeks, though.
Spooky23 10y ago
You're missing the point. Your computer is there to update itself. Your use is purely secondary. ;)

gldev 10y ago

If they promise to remove the botnet entirely i'd be in.

benbristow 10y ago
What botnet? Take off your Tinfoil hat.
- gldev 10y ago
  No need to get agressive, i just don't like microsoft forcing their telemetry stuff.
- Spivak 10y ago
  Calling it a botnet is meant to highlight that it's MS who is ultimately in control and a machine running W10 obeys them before the user. If we're going for accuracy, it should probably be called spyware.
  - Nullabillity 10y ago
    Spyware would be accurate if it was just the telemetry, botnet is correct since Windows Update essentially acts as a C&C system.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  They report every executable you run to check against a malware database. If you're using any software that isn't licensed or have cracks, those get reported too. This occurs even if you turn off all the reporting on the initial account setup.
coderdude 10y ago
Ahh, HN. I come for the articles but I stay for its cringe-worthy commentary.

Filligree 10y ago

I had about three GB free on my root partition. Windows 10 was automatically installed. Well, partially. You can probably guess what happened; if this had happened to anyone else in the family, their computer would have been effectively bricked. I used to spend most of my time in Linux anyway, but now I'm justifiably scared of booting Windows.

Someone1234 10y ago
Windows 10 won't attempt to install unless it has enough space to complete, and they look for 16 GB. So what I suspect actually occurred is that your hypervisor was set up to misreport how much space as available to Windows, so Windows 10 tried to install on the space it thought it had, only to hit the wall on the "real" filesystem below. It is unlikely this ever would have occurred to anyone else in your family, unless they're running Windows in a hypervisor that misreports space.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jboles 10y ago
  Sounds like the case. I'm guessing it was on an expanding virtual machine disk image, in which case the problem is user error rather than Windows.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  What about if that 16GB gets used up while the install is in progress?
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    I think one of the 70,000 Microsoft employees just might have thought of that possibility before pushing the update.
    - mickronome 10y ago

HoopleHead 10y ago

Stopped reading at "Reached out..." <vomit>

bluecalm 10y ago

Their practices for downloading updates in Windows 10 itself are not much better. I tried following all the instructions to disable automatic updates on my Windows 10 pro laptop and still they got me with 20 minutes update at the time I needed my computer urgently. Windows behaves like malware these days and it's very sad to see.

djsumdog 10y ago
Why are you disabling updates in Windows 10? I meant you're already on it. Updates are the most valuable security defense (next to never using anti-virus as it's a massive attack vector).
- ionised 10y ago
  Because Windows updates break things sometimes. In fact they do so fairly frequently.
  - dingo_bat 10y ago
    No they don't. This is bulshit.
- bluecalm 10y ago
  I just don't want them to be automatic. I want to have control over time they are installed so I can, you know, have my computer available when it's needed and do maintenance when it's not needed. Apparently Windows 10 randomly resets the update settings though so it's very hard to avoid surprises. This is just user hostile behavior in my book.
- noxToken 10y ago
  Because I don't want to have something running full screen only to have the update window quietly popup in the background to auto-shutdown my system in 10 minutes. Because I don't want to sit around for 10 minutes waiting for updates to install before I can pack up my laptop. Because I don't want to arrive somewhere ready to work/play only to have an additional 10 minutes and 2 restarts tacked on to my boot time. Because I don't want to have random lag spikes nor frame drops in games as my system decides that now is the perfect time to download an update. Disabling automatic updates isn't stupid if you're willing to manage them in a sane manner.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jrs235 10y ago

I visited my parents last weekend. My dad says his laptop automatically updated to Windows 10 a month ago and since then he was unable to use the internet (so basically the machine). He was PO'ed. He was tricked into installing it because Microsoft changed the behavior of the upgrade prompt. You can choose "Upgrade now" or "Not now, upgrade later". "Not now, upgrade later" use to behave like and mean "Ask me again later" Microsoft changed it to mean and behave like "Yes. Upgrade me, just not now... force it later". My mother was and has been able to avoid the forced upgrade by always clicking the "X" to close the prompt window and avoiding the dark pattern behavior.

khedoros 10y ago
Except that clicking the "x" is the same as clicking "Not now". The current pop-up is basically a notification that the upgrade has been scheduled and will happen. There's some other, smaller text in the window that would let her unschedule the update.
Splendor 10y ago
Same here. My mother called me in tears because she was tricked into installing Windows 10 on her PC and she can no longer sync photos from her camera.
- the_common_man 10y ago
  English is not my first language, so I am curious. When you say 'in tears' are you using some metaphor or was she actually crying?
  - tim333 10y ago
    Usually in English it's not metaphorical.
    - Gustomaximus 10y ago
      Unless it's about laughing. Then it usually is metaphorical.

tacos 10y ago

Meanwhile, Microsoft wins $10,000,000,000 profit by forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10.

vblord 10y ago

Ugh... I missed my opportunity. I upgraded the OS on my iPhone 3G and the thing ran soooo slow after that. It was so slow that it was almost impossible to use it. I should have sued Apple!!!

chipperyman573 10y ago
Why would you sue Apple for that? They didn't force you to upgrade and you could have researched any negative effects before you upgraded.
- 24gttghh 10y ago
  They stated iOS 9 would run on the 4S. It does, but quite painfully. They clearly knew this would happen as they have a very good understanding of the limitations of their own hardware.
- tdkl 10y ago
  That's BS. Advertising how awesome $vendor is with updating their own hardware but failing to note that it runs like crap, that user should do the research and isn't possible to revert, while nagging you with update notifications should result in a class action suit as well.
beagle3 10y ago
You can downgrade an iPhone 3G. Firmware signing started with the 3GS (and IIRC, that one was cracked, only the iPhone 4 and later firmware signing works as intended) I downgraded my 3G. Google "whited00r'

devy 10y ago

Shouldn't this case be a class-action suit? How come there isn't one already?

josefresco 10y ago

Since we're all sharing stories of family tech support - I recently had to give my sister's Toshiba laptop an overhaul, upgraded to Windows 10. That's it... no drama, no problems -sorry. Didn't XP teach us all a lesson about locked in/legacy software and it's danger to the security and stability of modern computing? Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but not my PC OS?

Nullabillity 10y ago
> Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but not my PC OS? Except, uh, they don't? My tablet (ASUS P01MA/Z580CA) still runs Lollipop and works fine. My phone (Nexus 5X) pops up with an update every month, but there is no coercion to install it, and it doesn't install it without my approval.
- tdkl 10y ago
  Precisely. I refuse to update my phone (Sony Z3C) because based on feedback it performs worse in battery life, because Google strongarmed Sony to remove their superior battery optimisation logic (Stamina) and include Googles halfassed one (Doze). So if I'm happy with current configuration, why change it?
mrweasel 10y ago
>Didn't XP teach us all a lesson about locked in/legacy software I would agree with anyone claiming that this is a shitty argument: Users to some extend brought this upon themselves, because given the option people would stay on Windows XP or older. All the people that are still on Windows XP, their user experience has just gotten better, no longer is Windows nagging them about updates and security fixes. Microsoft is trying to transition people to rolling upgrades, because users suck at letting go of their old unsafe legacy software. They transitioning in a shitty manor, but I'm not sure they have much choice, other than turn their back to Windows 7 and 8 users. I have co-workers that when they where upgraded to a later version of Windows on our terminal server wanted to know: Can't we just stay on Windows XP. This is people who try to sell consumers what ever happens to be the fashion this month. People that would like nothing better than customers that swap out everything in their home every six month. Everything except the operating system on the computer apparently. Yes, Microsoft has made a shitty move, but on the other end of that spectrum is end users that would have you run Windows XP service pack 27.

hyperpallium 10y ago

Reminds me of how Microsoft launched Xbox One - kinect, always on, no game resale. Which resulted in greater PS4 sales.

davidf18 10y ago

Although I can't speak for Windows 10, in general it is best to upgrade to the newest MS OS because although older versions of Windows get security upgrades, the newest version generally has newer security features that the older versions do not have, some of it taking advantage of newer Intel hardware. I currently run Mac with Windows 10 in Parallels VM.

overgard 10y ago

This is probably a dangerous position as a software developer, but I think we should stop calling these things upgrades. What's being shipped are changes. Whether they're improvements or not is completely subjective. It seems like splitting hairs, but terminology matters. It sounds harmless when you say "Microsoft reserves the right to update your machine" but things are clearer when you say "Microsoft reserves the right to change your machine, on their own schedule", which is effectively the right they've conferred on themselves. Windows 10 (and patches) aren't upgrades, they're changes. They might be better for you, or they might be worse. Nobody should be bullied into changing their machines at a vendor's whims.

794CD01 10y ago
By that logic, there is no such thing as an upgrade. https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  Which is exactly the point of the GP...?
  - charlesz 10y ago
    A Windows update broke Quickbooks for our entire org over the weekend. Happens more often than you would think. A few months back a Windows update broke Outlook for half our team.
cm2187 10y ago
Yeah, it's like my bank "upgrading" me to a Gold account where I will be charged more fees and receive more calls from my bank trying to sell me products...
- moskie 10y ago
  That is a crappy metaphor.

cm2187 10y ago

What I find surprising is that I see tech journalists reporting the issues, I see people complaining about these forced upgrades and the privacy invasion in windows 10 on forums or around me, but I do not see the press confronting Microsoft on any of this. Has anyone seen any interview where Nadella is pressed with questions on why they think it's OK to treat customer this way? All the interviews I have seen of Microsoft executives have been by docile journalists who prefer to keep their good relationship with the company than ask tough questions.

johansch 10y ago
"These aren't real journalists, Richard. They're tech journalists.”
- cm2187 10y ago
  Or ruminants, 90% of tech articles are barely digested press releases...

sirsuki 10y ago

Windows forced upgrade can be avoided with Never10: https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm Easily Control Automatic and Unwanted Windows 7 & 8.1 Upgrading to Windows 10

gnoway 10y ago
I think you can also just uninstall KB3035583 and then 'hide' it from windows update.
- rubidium 10y ago
  Not quite. I tried that (at least, one of the KB#'s early on) and it kept trying with new updates... so that probably wont solve it for anyone.
- ChoGGi 10y ago
  rem Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:2952664 /quiet /norestart rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows wusa /uninstall /kb:2990214 /quiet /norestart rem Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements wusa /uninstall /kb:3021917 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /quiet /norestart rem Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1 wusa /uninstall /kb:3035583 /quiet /norestart rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to a later version of Windows wusa /uninstall /kb:3044374 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /quiet /norestart rem Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /quiet /norestart rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /quiet /norestart rem Updated capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3123862 /quiet /norestart rem Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 wusa /uninstall /kb:3146449 /quiet /norestart

zelon88 10y ago

I was using Windows 7 for a variety of machines with various distros of Ubuntu for the rest when the Windows 10 push started happening. I fought the good fight for as long as I could, but Windows won. I had to switch my remaining Microsoft machines to Ubuntu and haven't looked back since. My wife's machine is the only Windows 7 thing left in the house. Seriously, it's time to dump Microsoft anyway. LibreOffice is top-shelf these days and Linux is only becoming more and more popular. I predict that the trends for Microsoft products will make an impressive downturn if they don't start showing their professional, enterprise, and enthusiast user-base some respect very soon.

ben_jones 10y ago

I was watching a stream of an online gaming tournament (Overwatch) with ~20k viewers. Right before a match one of the competitors machines decided to force a Windows 10 upgrade and they had to reschedule another two teams to play while he waited for everything to finish. It's to the point where Windows OS upgrades are no longer synonymous with new features or better performance, they are 100% associated with annoying and forced upgrade notifications. IMO it invalidates all the awesome OSS work and public outreach Microsoft has been doing. If you gut punch me with your left hand I don't care if you're holding out flowers with your right.

0xmohit 10y ago

This is a gem: A spokesperson for the company told the Seattle Times that it denied any wrongdoing and had dropped the appeal to avoid the additional expense of further litigation. Good that in this case [0], Microsoft didn't sue to kid's parents aside from suing him. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft

Fej 10y ago

Is anyone surprised by this? Just wait until the class action hits.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

amalag 10y ago

A friend accepted the Windows 10 update but then his Asus laptop had some failed windows update and went into a reboot loop. Completely unable to boot. This was 6 months after Windows 10 was released.

apozem 10y ago

Microsoft's dishonest and manipulative tricks to force Windows 10 upgrades are terrible for regular users or people who just aren't ready to make the jump. I have a non-techie friend who works in a veterinary clinic who recently texted me that the computers in her office had gone down after being forcibly upgraded to Windows 10. No computers meant having a hell of a time looking up records for the dogs and what medicine they were supposed to get. Not only is this forced upgrade business unethical, it's potentially dangerous. Some Windows systems haven't been upgraded because they're too important to tinker with.

gnashville 10y ago
I can't believe this is still how they operate. How has the company that shipped Windows Vista not figured it out yet?

edoceo 10y ago

I might be the only person who wants Windows 10 but can't get the install to work. I'm going to the MS Redmond campus on Wed to see if anyone there can figure it out.

SN76477 10y ago

Im glad this judgement was passed. It also makes me sad. Microsoft was in the best possible position before Windows10 They could have been the peoples OS. They could have said, 'we listened and this is Win10' Win10 is almost great, forced updates, sketchy snooping and forced accounts sort of ruined it.

627467 10y ago

I was sitting on an exam where we were allowed (although not mandatory) to use a computer to research and write the exam and halfway through reading the exam sheets I noticed my colleague's computer restarts and enters the windows 10 installation mode. It finished half way through our exam time. His computer was useless to him for the exam. This is shameful Microsoft.

jokoon 10y ago

Devil's advocate: windows 10 is awesome as an OS, hardware support is very good.

xyience 10y ago
So is <insert other modern OS>. That doesn't mean it should be auto-installed.
5ilv3r 10y ago
So is haiku.

sev 10y ago

I wonder if Google can/will be held to the same scrutiny for automatically upgrading Chrome?

rwallace 10y ago

A strong brand costs so much to build, is such a valuable asset, I can't think of any commercial motive that would come close to making up for trashing the brands of the company and product like this. So I'm going to conjecture a non-commercial motive: maybe the US government has asked Microsoft to do this to assist with surveillance. No proof, of course, but it's the only scenario I can think of in which this would make sense. The truth will probably come out someday; I'll be interested in seeing whether I was right.

waylandsmithers 10y ago

Good. I'm sure everyone here has a story about someone we know whose windows machine was upgraded. Say what you want about these kinds of court cases, but real emotional distress has been inflicted on so many people by MS by doing this.

randiantech 10y ago

I dont see mandatory updates as a bad thing per se. I think ideally it would be a way to allow users that wants to use older versions to pay a fee to do that (Basically to cover the maintenance service due to keep patching legacy versions). I think its understandable that MS dont want to keep investing in phased out software.

5ilv3r 10y ago
Users don't buy a windows license with an expiration date.
criddell 10y ago
> I think its understandable that MS dont want to keep investing in phased out software. I think the problem is that they are phasing out software to replace it with something that few people are asking for. I like Windows 10. I also liked Windows 8.1, 7, Vista, XP, and 2000. I've been using them to do basically the exact same thing for the past 15 years -- run software and manage files. I think any one of them could have been the operating system that Microsoft declares "this is the last one!".

mark_l_watson 10y ago

If I called the shots at Microsoft I would handle things differently: run a series of advertisements warning people that after a certain date, no security updates would be available for old versions of Windows. I would then make it easy and free to update any computer, but I would not force automatic updates. I would explain to the public that for online security that everyone had to always be on the latest version. This may sound harsh, but I think it would be for the most benefit for most people.

Mikeb85 10y ago

I know a student whose computer restarted to upgrade to Windows 10 the day before a paper was due. Needless to say she wasn't very impressed, and will likely never buy a PC again.

trhway 10y ago

time to get a certified copy of the case docs from that court house and visit the local one - sounds like it was a Small Claims, so not much hassle - at least comparing to the annoyance of those notifications and the final insult of the upgrade that still finally happened anyway.

boundring 10y ago

Am I the only one who leaves the Windows Update service entry disabled under the "services" settings? Seriously, it's that simple. I check once a week, tops.

kayone 10y ago
>Am I the only one who leaves the Windows Update service entry disabled under the "services" settings? I really hope you are.
chrisfosterelli 10y ago
I wouldn't say disabling all security updates is a good solution.
- boundring 10y ago
  Read a little more carefully: I update when I want my laptop tied up with an inconvenient process. Scheduled, not never at all.
  - chrisfosterelli 10y ago
    Ah, yes sorry. I've heard this advice given often for the "Windows 10 problem", but given to users who definitely would never bother/know to update manually.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  What would you say?
5ilv3r 10y ago
You are a responsible administrator, and should be rewarded with system stability and job satisfaction. Good work.

yugai 10y ago

I haven't found anyone using Windows X that thinks it's better than Windows XP. Windows 10 is better than Windows 8 but still worse than XP. My father-in-law was pleased that his Windows 8 was replaced by 10 automatically because he hated it and was about to return his laptop.

tim333 10y ago
I prefered 7 to XP. XP used to screw up and need to be restored from a disk image fairly often, 7 not so much.

knodi 10y ago

Finally!! This was so stupid of them. imagine all those people who had a failed upgrade and PC couldn't get to the desktop anymore.

Santosh83 10y ago

As far as I'm concerned the worst aspect of Windows 10 are the forced updates for "unmetered" Internet connection users. As it happens, many of us have wired connections that we pay through the nose for, and as long as MS won't give me an option to control the download of potentially massive updates, I'll continue sticking to my current 8.1. If this is back-ported to 8.1, I'll wipe my last install of Windows and go full-time Linux. MS has no business Forcing me to download stuff that I end-up paying for. The same goes for telemetry that will also presumably consume some fraction of my paid-for bandwidth.

dragonwriter 10y ago
The metered/non-metered distinction is reasonable, and the behavior that results from it defensible, but the assumption that wired (Ethernet) LAN connections are unmetered is absolutely indefensible, for a number of reasons: 1) Wired WAN connections are, in fact, quite often quota-limited (perhaps with a generous cap, but still limited). 2) A Wired LAN connection may backed by a wireless WAN connection.
- voltagex_ 10y ago
  There's a registry hack for setting wired to metered but I agree, it needs to be fixed. Are you able to add feedback (or +1 mine) on the Feedback Center?

ck2 10y ago

GWX Control Panel http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ Disables virtually all possibilities of auto-upgrades.

DKnoll3 10y ago
So does using an OS that respects the user's right to choose, and doesn't rely on trickery to change users to a more commercially friendly platform.

justinlardinois 10y ago

> Her $10,000 figure reflected estimated lost compensation as well as the cost of a new system. The article doesn't go into what she does for a living, so I'll leave the compensation part alone. But why did she need to buy a new computer? Did Windows 10 flash her BIOS? Or is it just the standard "oh my computer is slow, better just buy a new one"?

revanx_ 10y ago

I tried Windows 10, spent 18 hours tweaking and fine tuning until I went too far with disabling the hidden telemetry services (yes W10 has hidden services that you will never see in the MMC but run with an automatic trigger). Went afk which was apparently the trigger condition, two hours later I find my laptop completely locked and unresponsive burning the cpu in some infinite loop. Have to give them credit tho, the telemetry that cannot be disabled does not bypass the software firewall in case you're blocking the ports, at least not from what I have learned in the span of two days.

amluto 10y ago

This doesn't just affect upgrades from earlier versions of Windows to Windows 10. I've seen Windows 10 computers spontaneously become unusable for hours, saying "All your files are exactly where you left them." Real helpful. I haven't personally used Windows in years, but I remember a completely unproductive day at work when we installed a Visual Studio upgrade that look approximately 24 hours to install (might have been 18, or maybe 36 -- I forget) with no option to cancel. At least that was a bug that Microsoft later admitted to and fixed.

CamperBob2 10y ago

Aaaaand, here come the shills. Good job, Microsoft. Everyone who works on the Windows team should be proud. You've built something that you literally can't give away for free without force-feeding it to users, and that can be defended only by downmodding those who object.

dang 10y ago
Accusations of astroturfing and shillage are not allowed on HN without evidence. And please don't post comments complaining about downvotes (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11989084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11989084 and marked it off-topic.
- CamperBob2 10y ago
  Not arguing with your decision, but seriously: you don't find the moderation patterns in these threads just a little suspicious? You'll note I didn't accuse anyone specific of shilling.
  - dang 10y ago
    I'm grateful that you didn't accuse anyone specific (that would be worse), but it still degrades the discussion to make this charge without evidence. > you don't find the moderation patterns in these threads just a little suspicious? I don't know exactly what moderation patterns you mean, but for the most part what we see is pretty easily explained. Take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11844253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11844253. We're dead serious when we do find evidence: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20banned%20astroturfer https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR...

more_corn 10y ago

Pick the world you want to live in and go build it. Opt-in: free but chaotic and insecure. Opt-out: more uniform, but imperfect and still messy. Forced updates: it works but in the same way tyranny does. I'm ok with security updates being on by default (and truly important ones being more forceful), but the harder you push the more freedom you take away. Do you want to live in a world where someone takes your choice away because they think they know better?

urbanKeywi 10y ago

BTW, personally I don't like any kind of updates. But I couldn't help updating them, cause always there were irritating alerts.