8 ms·

I think that one factor is that in the Chinese culture, you don't expect everything to be good and available during all seasons. At a Whole Foods, you can reas

I think that one factor is that in the Chinese culture, you don't expect everything to be good and available during all seasons. At a Whole Foods, you can reasonably be assured of asparagus in the winter time. In Chinatown, things are only available when they're in season, like a farmers' market. Also, if you've ever ordered at a Chinese restaurant with a Chinese family, you'll see this phenomenon. Instead of ordering what you want, you'll consult with the waiter to see "what's good today". For instance, the spinach might be not up to par, so he'll substitute some nice fresh bok choy. I've not seen that in a western restaurant.

mikeryan 10y ago
There's a lot of western restaurants (Admittedly usually on the higher end) who change their menus seasonally, if not daily to reflect whats available. Its part of what the whole farm-to-table phenomenon is about.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  It's not about farm to table, it's about economics and about what people prefer to eat especially in places where there is a big difference between winter and summer. Gazpacho isn't a dish you really want to have when the temperatures drop below 0, but on a hot summer day is perfection. Pretty much most restaurants regardless of being high end or not, have fish of the day, soup of the day, dish of the day etc. that's just a normal reaction to the supply of the market during that day as it's often considerably cheaper to secure the daily catch or w/e your veggie guy has that morning than securing seasonal items daily.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    IMO, it's all about getting food from speciality purveyors vs. just checking boxes from Sysco. The cost reflects that, as the chef has to go hunt around for stuff.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  One thing is a lot of asian recipes tend to be more modular. Also, the middle/lower range asian restaurants can't afford to print menus each day. So for instance, if the shrimp don't look good that day, they'll gladly throw in the littleneck clams that just came in. Same with green leafy vegetables, where they're pretty much interchangeable. "We have ong choy instead of a choy. Deal with it." Whereas in a lot of western cuisines, if you need endive in a dish, it has to be endive. Especially in higher end restaurants. They care so much about the flavor that substitutions are not possible. Maybe this green is slightly more bitter than this other green, and it throws off the whole flavor of the dish. Whereas, in a lower/middle end asian restaurant, nobody really cares.
  - throwaway676565 10y ago
    > nobody really cares They will eventually though. As someone said above, they're not far away enough from the farms yet.
jzwinck 10y ago
Is this an American Chinese thing? I live in Asia and when I ask what's good they usually say something generic like "The rice dishes are good."
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  <soapbox> It helps if you speak the language. I'm not saying you don't speak the language, just for those following along at home. You have to have some rough idea of what you want. If you want stir fried vegetables, you'll say something like "I want stir fried vegetables. What's good today?" Or "I want a seafood noodle soup. How do the mussels look? Any suggestions?" Time location is important. Instead of just saying "What's good?" ask "I like rice plates. Anything good come in today?" Finally, it's not always like this. I know I've squashed down at some street vendors and ordered a bowl of noodles without this conversation. This doesn't happen at every meal. </soapbox>
  - sidek 10y ago
    Really? Lived in HK for a long time, had lots of friends who grew up there/were very local.. never saw this happen. Is it regional?
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      You know, I never thought about it. Maybe. Asian restaurants in Asia tend to specialize. You want curry, go to the curry place, if you want noodles, go to the noodle place. Asian restaurants in the states (Thai and Chinese especially) have huge menus with no clear recommendations in the name. For instance, what are you getting when you go to Morton's steak house? The name gives you the cue. Just like if you're heading into a restaurant called "Shanghai Dumpling House" you're probably getting dumplings. "Golden Dragon" or "Wok Shop" gives you no information to work with, so you have to extract what is good from the waiter instead of the menu.
      - jghn 10y ago
        "Just like if you're heading into a restaurant called "Shanghai Dumpling House" you're probably getting dumplings." Be careful with this. At least in the US, the English name often has very little to do with the Chinese name, and it's the latter which is meaningful. As an example there's a place in Boston's Chinatown called the "Dumpling House" (or something along those lines) but the Chinese name is something like "tastes of north and south". Go figure, you see a lot of Westerners complaining about the dumplings here.
driverdan 10y ago
> At a Whole Foods... I'm curious why did you compare to Whole Foods? They are far more expensive than a regular grocery store and their food is not better.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  My main point is that most western groceries have an expectation of having any produce in any season, eg apples during the summer and peaches during the winter. Whole Food is just an example of a national food chain most people are familiar with. For example, outside of the west coast, nobody knows what an Albertson's is. And outside of the midwest, nobody knows what a HyVee is.
  - pkaye 10y ago
    What about Trader Joe's? Good quality at more reasonable prices.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      Did you miss my entire reply? Was trying to provide a common point of reference. Whole Foods exists in the UK and Canada. Trader Joe's does not.
- TaylorAlexander 10y ago
  I hear people say that, but I keep seeing things that are cheaper at Whole Foods than they are at Safeway. Identical products, like Endangered Species brand 88% dark chocolate and Racer 5 IPA beer are cheaper at my local Whole Foods than they are at Safeway. $3.29 vs $3.99 and $4.99 vs $5.99, respectively. Their produce and meat may be more expensive, but appears to be of higher quality. I'm not actually sure how much more expensive Whole Foods is compared to a place like Safeway.
  - akiselev 10y ago
    The two stores deal with very different tagret markets and have very different economics. Whole Foods shoppers are willing to spend way more on produce, which is usually very low margin, so they don't need to make up the profit on their other items. Compare, for example Vons and Pavilions, which are owned by the same company. In my town we have a Vons literally across the street from Pavilions and while their prices for alcohol are the same, stuff like produce, coffee, and cereal can have a huge price differences even from the same vendor. Likewise, Trader Joes has the cheapest and best eggs, milk, and other staples in my general area, despite being overall more expensive. When it comes to produce or meat, I have never seen anything at Whole Foods that would be more expensive at a low end grocery.
peterbonney 10y ago
"I think that one factor is that in the Chinese culture, you don't expect everything to be good and available during all seasons." I don't think that's a cultural thing, and certainly not an ethnic thing. I think it might have something to do with how many generations-removed one is from agrarian life (or close physical/logistical proximity to it)... Growing up in my (very white) hometown in New England, which still had plenty of farms at the time, it was well understood that the good produce was seasonal and not available in chain supermarkets.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  I don't think it's an ethnic thing. But I definitely think it's a cultural thing. I agree with you about how many generations-removed you are from food production. Rather, how many steps/middlemen you're used to. For example: China is still a developing country with a generally low per capita income. You're intimately familiar with the seasons, and what's available when, and what it takes to get your food. Few can afford to shop at Western style supermarkets regularly, so you have a better idea (and know) the people growing and selling your food. "Oh, that's the place that always has the good cabbage". That sort of thing. Compare that to the states, where even produce comes shrink wrapped and you have no idea how it got in the store, you just know you need to pay money to bring it home. How many trucks/resellers/packagers has this produce gone through before I take it home?
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    This is almost right...but the western style supermarkets in China like bgh are still very Chinese. A lot of produce comes shrink wrapped, which is something I have never seen in the states before! And it is annoying, because they will hide wilted leaves under good ones...damn it. In general, I find shopping for veggies in China nerve wracking, and it's mostly my Chinese wife doing the picking while I'm just waiting and waiting... Wet markets are no better...often there is no place to get good cabbage, at least nowhere near my house, and we have to use something else that we could find in decent condition.
    - 10y ago
honkhonkpants 10y ago
Asparagus is harvested in the winter!
- maxerickson 10y ago
  In Michigan it emerges in May or so, which is the middle of spring.
- majewsky 10y ago
  In Germany, asparagus season is just over, lasting from April to June. Interestingly, asparagus is one of the few vegetables which Germans fully accept as being available only seasonally. And conversely, they go totally crazy during asparagus season for no apparent reason. About the only other seasonal vegetable is kale, which Northern Germans will once a year cook to death and serve with disgustingly fat sausages whose name derives from an old word for "penis". You can't make this up. :)
  - kuschku 10y ago
    There’s some more things Germans accept as seasonal: Plums, Strawberries and non-frozen raspberries. Especially strawberries – during early summer, on every street corner there’s someone selling strawberries from a small camping trailer painted red with green roof.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      Ah, you're right. I forgot about fruits.
e12e 10y ago
> For instance, the spinach might be not up to par, so he'll substitute some nice fresh bok choy. I've not seen that in a western restaurant. All good chefs/restaurants do this. IMNHO fixed menu a la carte restaurants are rarely very good - but for some reason they seem to be common. Perhaps what's more interesting is how common it is to not do this in many restaurants. It usually just means that the kitchen doesn't care about the ingredients, or about the meals they prepare for that matter (eg: the line chefs/people actually working the kitchen day-to-day might have little freedom to influence the menu).

mikeryan 10y ago

There's a lot of western restaurants (Admittedly usually on the higher end) who change their menus seasonally, if not daily to reflect whats available. Its part of what the whole farm-to-table phenomenon is about.

dogma1138 10y ago
It's not about farm to table, it's about economics and about what people prefer to eat especially in places where there is a big difference between winter and summer. Gazpacho isn't a dish you really want to have when the temperatures drop below 0, but on a hot summer day is perfection. Pretty much most restaurants regardless of being high end or not, have fish of the day, soup of the day, dish of the day etc. that's just a normal reaction to the supply of the market during that day as it's often considerably cheaper to secure the daily catch or w/e your veggie guy has that morning than securing seasonal items daily.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  IMO, it's all about getting food from speciality purveyors vs. just checking boxes from Sysco. The cost reflects that, as the chef has to go hunt around for stuff.
jimmywanger 10y ago
One thing is a lot of asian recipes tend to be more modular. Also, the middle/lower range asian restaurants can't afford to print menus each day. So for instance, if the shrimp don't look good that day, they'll gladly throw in the littleneck clams that just came in. Same with green leafy vegetables, where they're pretty much interchangeable. "We have ong choy instead of a choy. Deal with it." Whereas in a lot of western cuisines, if you need endive in a dish, it has to be endive. Especially in higher end restaurants. They care so much about the flavor that substitutions are not possible. Maybe this green is slightly more bitter than this other green, and it throws off the whole flavor of the dish. Whereas, in a lower/middle end asian restaurant, nobody really cares.
- throwaway676565 10y ago
  > nobody really cares They will eventually though. As someone said above, they're not far away enough from the farms yet.

jzwinck 10y ago

Is this an American Chinese thing? I live in Asia and when I ask what's good they usually say something generic like "The rice dishes are good."

jimmywanger 10y ago
<soapbox> It helps if you speak the language. I'm not saying you don't speak the language, just for those following along at home. You have to have some rough idea of what you want. If you want stir fried vegetables, you'll say something like "I want stir fried vegetables. What's good today?" Or "I want a seafood noodle soup. How do the mussels look? Any suggestions?" Time location is important. Instead of just saying "What's good?" ask "I like rice plates. Anything good come in today?" Finally, it's not always like this. I know I've squashed down at some street vendors and ordered a bowl of noodles without this conversation. This doesn't happen at every meal. </soapbox>
- sidek 10y ago
  Really? Lived in HK for a long time, had lots of friends who grew up there/were very local.. never saw this happen. Is it regional?
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    You know, I never thought about it. Maybe. Asian restaurants in Asia tend to specialize. You want curry, go to the curry place, if you want noodles, go to the noodle place. Asian restaurants in the states (Thai and Chinese especially) have huge menus with no clear recommendations in the name. For instance, what are you getting when you go to Morton's steak house? The name gives you the cue. Just like if you're heading into a restaurant called "Shanghai Dumpling House" you're probably getting dumplings. "Golden Dragon" or "Wok Shop" gives you no information to work with, so you have to extract what is good from the waiter instead of the menu.
    - jghn 10y ago
      "Just like if you're heading into a restaurant called "Shanghai Dumpling House" you're probably getting dumplings." Be careful with this. At least in the US, the English name often has very little to do with the Chinese name, and it's the latter which is meaningful. As an example there's a place in Boston's Chinatown called the "Dumpling House" (or something along those lines) but the Chinese name is something like "tastes of north and south". Go figure, you see a lot of Westerners complaining about the dumplings here.

driverdan 10y ago

> At a Whole Foods... I'm curious why did you compare to Whole Foods? They are far more expensive than a regular grocery store and their food is not better.

jimmywanger 10y ago
My main point is that most western groceries have an expectation of having any produce in any season, eg apples during the summer and peaches during the winter. Whole Food is just an example of a national food chain most people are familiar with. For example, outside of the west coast, nobody knows what an Albertson's is. And outside of the midwest, nobody knows what a HyVee is.
- pkaye 10y ago
  What about Trader Joe's? Good quality at more reasonable prices.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    Did you miss my entire reply? Was trying to provide a common point of reference. Whole Foods exists in the UK and Canada. Trader Joe's does not.
TaylorAlexander 10y ago
I hear people say that, but I keep seeing things that are cheaper at Whole Foods than they are at Safeway. Identical products, like Endangered Species brand 88% dark chocolate and Racer 5 IPA beer are cheaper at my local Whole Foods than they are at Safeway. $3.29 vs $3.99 and $4.99 vs $5.99, respectively. Their produce and meat may be more expensive, but appears to be of higher quality. I'm not actually sure how much more expensive Whole Foods is compared to a place like Safeway.
- akiselev 10y ago
  The two stores deal with very different tagret markets and have very different economics. Whole Foods shoppers are willing to spend way more on produce, which is usually very low margin, so they don't need to make up the profit on their other items. Compare, for example Vons and Pavilions, which are owned by the same company. In my town we have a Vons literally across the street from Pavilions and while their prices for alcohol are the same, stuff like produce, coffee, and cereal can have a huge price differences even from the same vendor. Likewise, Trader Joes has the cheapest and best eggs, milk, and other staples in my general area, despite being overall more expensive. When it comes to produce or meat, I have never seen anything at Whole Foods that would be more expensive at a low end grocery.

peterbonney 10y ago

"I think that one factor is that in the Chinese culture, you don't expect everything to be good and available during all seasons." I don't think that's a cultural thing, and certainly not an ethnic thing. I think it might have something to do with how many generations-removed one is from agrarian life (or close physical/logistical proximity to it)... Growing up in my (very white) hometown in New England, which still had plenty of farms at the time, it was well understood that the good produce was seasonal and not available in chain supermarkets.

jimmywanger 10y ago
I don't think it's an ethnic thing. But I definitely think it's a cultural thing. I agree with you about how many generations-removed you are from food production. Rather, how many steps/middlemen you're used to. For example: China is still a developing country with a generally low per capita income. You're intimately familiar with the seasons, and what's available when, and what it takes to get your food. Few can afford to shop at Western style supermarkets regularly, so you have a better idea (and know) the people growing and selling your food. "Oh, that's the place that always has the good cabbage". That sort of thing. Compare that to the states, where even produce comes shrink wrapped and you have no idea how it got in the store, you just know you need to pay money to bring it home. How many trucks/resellers/packagers has this produce gone through before I take it home?
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  This is almost right...but the western style supermarkets in China like bgh are still very Chinese. A lot of produce comes shrink wrapped, which is something I have never seen in the states before! And it is annoying, because they will hide wilted leaves under good ones...damn it. In general, I find shopping for veggies in China nerve wracking, and it's mostly my Chinese wife doing the picking while I'm just waiting and waiting... Wet markets are no better...often there is no place to get good cabbage, at least nowhere near my house, and we have to use something else that we could find in decent condition.
  - 10y ago

honkhonkpants 10y ago

Asparagus is harvested in the winter!

maxerickson 10y ago
In Michigan it emerges in May or so, which is the middle of spring.
majewsky 10y ago
In Germany, asparagus season is just over, lasting from April to June. Interestingly, asparagus is one of the few vegetables which Germans fully accept as being available only seasonally. And conversely, they go totally crazy during asparagus season for no apparent reason. About the only other seasonal vegetable is kale, which Northern Germans will once a year cook to death and serve with disgustingly fat sausages whose name derives from an old word for "penis". You can't make this up. :)
- kuschku 10y ago
  There’s some more things Germans accept as seasonal: Plums, Strawberries and non-frozen raspberries. Especially strawberries – during early summer, on every street corner there’s someone selling strawberries from a small camping trailer painted red with green roof.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    Ah, you're right. I forgot about fruits.

e12e 10y ago

> For instance, the spinach might be not up to par, so he'll substitute some nice fresh bok choy. I've not seen that in a western restaurant. All good chefs/restaurants do this. IMNHO fixed menu a la carte restaurants are rarely very good - but for some reason they seem to be common. Perhaps what's more interesting is how common it is to not do this in many restaurants. It usually just means that the kitchen doesn't care about the ingredients, or about the meals they prepare for that matter (eg: the line chefs/people actually working the kitchen day-to-day might have little freedom to influence the menu).