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In poor neighborhoods, McDonald’s have become de-facto community centers

• RodericDay 10y ago
  Reminds me of this 2014 article about a "standoff" between McDonald's Employees and elderly Chinese people using it as a community space http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/McDonalds-Elderly-Senior-Citizens-Wont-Leave-Standoff-Flushing-Queens-240348291.html http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/McDonalds-Elderly-Senio... Also, chess players being evicted from a Vancouver mall after 50 years of congregation http://www.timescolonist.com/chess-players-offered-new-play-place-in-vancouver-area-mall-stalement-1.2238914 http://www.timescolonist.com/chess-players-offered-new-play-... I have an ideological axe to grind here, but I can't help but think of this as the end-game of libertarian "the government should enforce property rights only". Of course, currently existing social services are more like a band-aid on top of inequality than a real cure, so you end up with things like, > In almost every franchise, there are tables with people like Betty escaping from the streets for a short bit. They prefer McDonald’s to shelters and to non-profits, because McDonald’s are safer, provide more freedom, and most importantly, the chance to be social, restoring a small amount of normalcy. but it's really not hard to imagine something superior to both McDonald's and shelters, just real community space.
  • darpa_escapee 10y ago
    There's something incredibly American about a multibillion dollar fast-food corporation that's unwittingly found itself as the gathering place for those abandoned by a society that has gutted and underfunded social services.
    • boona 10y ago
      >gutted and underfunded social services The US spends so much, that social security and medicare combined have nearly 33 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities. To give you a sense of scale, that's half of the world's gdp. In terms of taxes, there are 4 payees for every beneficiary and it's estimated that by 2030 that number will be 2 to 1. When you sift through all the propaganda, America is financially imploding because it gives so much. So feel what you wish, but to state that the services are underfunded doesn't match reality. http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/01/17/you-think-the-deficit-is-bad-federal-unfunded-liabilities-exceed-127-trillion/#45af21a810d3 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/01/17/you-think-th...
      • mac01021 10y ago
        The washington post's take on this same unfunded-liabilities thing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/... Also, don't "payee" and "beneficiary" mean the same thing? Should the article have used "payer" instead of "payee"?
      • msie 10y ago
        Perhaps the funding for such services are not going as far as one would think.
      • jernfrost 10y ago
        That is a myth. I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that Americans tend to thing they spend such huge amount of money on social services and welfare. You don't okay. Look at the statistics and try to travel a bit. For people who have actually been around the world, it is blindly obvious that America isn't spending much money on its poor. America has the highest level of inequality of any rich country. Look it up. Ok by Indian and Chinese standard, America is probably extremely generous and that seems to be the standard which many American conservatives measure American efforts towards the poor. If it is significantly better than India or some other dirt poor third world country then it must be great. Seriously America is one of the richest countries in the world and yet I've never been to a developed country where you see so much depravity, poverty and people struggling all in the midst of opulence. Kind of sick that people tolerate this.
        • boona 10y ago
          >That is a myth ... You don't okay. I'll stick with the numbers. >try to travel a bit. For people who have actually been around the world I don't live in the United States, and I've done plenty of traveling. I'm giving you the facts, and you're ascribing motive and/or a viewpoint. You're saying that the only way I can possibly believe what I believe is because I haven't seen the world. Out of respect for each other and the discussion, why don't we assume that both of us have seen the world and instead stick to the facts. > America has the highest level of inequality of any rich country. Look it up. So what? I don't care if Elon Musk retires and plays golf on Mars for the rest of his days, not if that means reduced automotive emissions and a better life for everyone here. The better metric is how well are the poor in the US doing as compared to other countries like the ones you've mentioned. > I've never been to a developed country where you see so much depravity I don't know how to quantify that. > Ok by Indian and Chinese standard, America is probably extremely generous Exactly, and it's be cause we have a lot of rich people here that pay lots of taxes.
  • boona 10y ago
    > the end-game of libertarian "the government should enforce property rights only" The alternative is government, but this is clearly a case where they've failed. Federal, state, and local governments haven't provided any comparable services, only the private sector did, and with no government funding. I think the liberal (or north-american libertarian) way, would include local community areas run by individuals within said community similar to a co-op. Remember that liberalism doesn't tell you HOW you have get together, only that politicians can't create a one size fits all solution and force everyone to pay for it.
    • ticviking 10y ago
      The bigger issues with co-ops right now in the USA are the regulatory barriers in the way of forming one without everyone involved becoming liable for anything bad that happens.
  • UVB-76 10y ago
    By community space, I assume you mean public buildings like libraries, town halls, community centres, youth clubs, etc. In what way are they better than private spaces? The main difference is that people can use public spaces for free, but only because the cost is borne by those who don't use them. Meanwhile, using such facilities carries a social stigma, because they are, by and large, only used by people who cannot afford to congregate in private spaces (bars, restaurants, coffee shops, gyms, clubs, classes, etc.) This article demonstrates how it's possible for companies to provide de facto public spaces, at minimal cost (the cost of a coffee, or similar), in a mutually beneficial arrangement.
  • Kalium 10y ago
    > but it's really not hard to imagine something superior to both McDonald's and shelters, just real community space. Depends a great deal on how you define "superior". McD's has the singular advantage of being generally self-funding.
• em500 10y ago
  And in rich neighborhoods, Starbucks?
  • zyxley 10y ago
    There's a fairly big one near where I live that allows people to reserve bits of it for small community events during the week, as well as scheduling amateur or semi-professional musicians to do low-key live performances each weekend.
  • niftich 10y ago
    and Panera, but yes. I don't know if community centers are the right analogy though. Simply put, a business where you can get a drink or pastry and socialize for an extended amount of time is an integral part of many societies, but it was lacking in most parts of the US for many years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub
  • bluedino 10y ago
    Barnes and Noble cafe's are also very popular hangouts. As were Borders before they all closed.
  • mmanfrin 10y ago
    By design, yes -- when I was younger I worked at a Starbucks for a few years, and in training they talked about how they wanted to make it the 'Third Place' after Home and Work. Makes sense that would be the community center of a neighborhood.
  • fullshark 10y ago
    That's where you go to work on your novel alone with your headphones on.
  • colmvp 10y ago
    As much as I love small cafes, I have to say, Starbucks has grown on me, specifically living in a nice neighbourhood. The Starbucks near me is always very clean, has a very nice interior, plenty of outlets for laptops, fast wifi, very clean washrooms, and pleasant baristas. They even have a large communal table which they allow meetups to book. And plenty of people ranging from families to students walk from their detached homes to chill. I know that not all Starbucks are like that (one NYC location had a filthy bathroom, one in San Bruno is always packed with inventory boxes and people) but I think they were able to foster a community and place of comfort for their cafe.
• protomyth 10y ago
  I would love to see someone do a purpose built place with a targeted menu to see how it would do as a modern version of a community center. 1) big glass windows with good interior lighting
  • niftich 10y ago
    In some parts of Europe, McDonald's is actually a somewhat upmarket option, and fulfills a purpose similar to Starbucks in the US. Some downtown ones are in historic buildings with elegant furniture. This is a bit atypical, but here's a nice one in Budapest: https://mic.com/articles/85625/this-is-the-world-s-fanciest-mcdonald-s https://mic.com/articles/85625/this-is-the-world-s-fanciest-...
    • topspin 10y ago
      When McDonald's opened in Moscow in the 1980's one of the things people frequently mentioned after standing in line for hours was the high quality of the food. It was normal McDonald's fair tailored to the local market. We're pretty spoiled people in the US. Some large fraction of the species can only dream of eating food as good as what McDonald's sells.
      • emp_zealoth 10y ago
        Hate to break it to you, but from what I've been told by anyone that went to US: Non-US McDonald's food is way way WAY better than what you get in US McDonald's... Also, this comment really rubbed me the wrong way. I'd say extreme superiority complex with a side of slight ignorance To russians first McDonald's in Moscow was like Berlin wall falling to germans. It was complete antithesis of the Soviet Union.
        • niftich 10y ago
          In my experience, between McDonald's in the US and eastern Europe, the food tastes largely the same, but in Europe it is better prepared. The meat isn't greasy and never burnt, the wrapper is pristine. The fries are fresh and crispy, never soggy. Service is usually very fast; many places have timers that show how long the order took to be fulfilled. Overall, it's a more polished experience in Europe.
• helipad 10y ago
  In many communities in the UK, it's the pub. On the positive side, it brings a genuine sense of community where you hang out alone, forge new bonds or maintain old ones. People come and go asking if so-and-so has been in today. Before mobiles, families would call the pub and leave messages for each other. Class lines were much less defined. You leave things behind the bar for other people to pick up later. On the negative side, well, alcohol, and all the issues that brings.
  • tonyedgecombe 10y ago
    Most of the pubs near me are restaurants first, pubs second.
• smokey_the_bear 10y ago
  McDonalds is the only restaurant I enjoy eating at with my 2 and 3 year olds. Every other restaurant is a slog to get through the meal. Honestly I'd eat there more often if it weren't for the social stigma of it. (I live in Berkeley). I am pretty sure the cheeseburger, apple slices, and chocolate milk are not much worse, and probably better, than the typical fare on a slapped together kids meal. When I was a kid, my dad would take me to the local McDonalds to do math, several times a week. They'd let us sit there ordering nothing but sodas in a comfy booth for hours. These are some of my fondest childhood memories. There are some issues with McDonalds, but it is a pleasant user experience.
  • sotojuan 10y ago
    Yeah it's definitely not bad or gross any more, at least in some parts. Their coffee is the best at that price point as well.
    • tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      A friend of mine services kitchen equipment for a living (in the UK), he regularly tells me McDonald's are the cleanest establishments he visits.
      • swang 10y ago
        imo mcdonald's coca-cola taste is the best because they're the only ones that clean their fountainheads regularly.
        • a2tech 10y ago
          I can vouch for that. Our McDonalds cleaned them every night-thoroughly. Our restaurant was also really quite clean. Even the 'icky' bits got a thorough cleaning at least once a week-our maintenance guy would break down the fryers and grill area and polish them to a shine.
          • 10y ago
• bluedino 10y ago
  Aren't Japanese McDonald's a popular hangout for teenagers?
  • bitwize 10y ago
    When I was in Osaka, the McDonald's had a blockbusting line going into it. The food was, near as I can tell, identical to the American locations -- but the place was spacious, clean, and staffed mostly by the sort of mousy-voiced girls Japan seems to produce in legion strength. And you get a Handi-Wipe to clean up with after your meal.
    • astrange 10y ago
      It's a popular place to go just to get coffee. (Their coffee is pretty okay in the US too.) I feel like I remember totally offending a French guy by suggesting we do this once.
    • Pamar 10y ago
      after your meal?
• CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
  I personally avoid Chic-Fil-A because of their anti-LGBT and pro-religion values, but I'm glad to hear they're pleasant for children.
  • shrugger 10y ago
    Those are the main reasons I go there so often. It's a certain caliber of customer that seems to go there, and I really enjoy the atmosphere and the certainty that there won't be any weirdos or spiky-haired freaks while I'm trying to eat my food. I'm not so big on the whole religion thing, but whatever. They've a right to think that.
    • gh-lfneu28 10y ago
      Sad to see you downvoted for expressing a great American freedom, voting with your dollars.
      • CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
        I suspect they're being downvoted for comparing LGBT folks to "weirdos or spiky-haired freaks" moreso than having a contrary choice in fast food restaurant.
        • gh-lfneu28 10y ago
          They didn't draw any comparisons though.
          • shrugger 10y ago
            It doesn't matter to them. You either say exactly what they want to hear or you're wrong. Don't waste your time.
        • deleted 10y ago
          [deleted]
        • 10y ago
• billmalarky 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
  • futuravenir 10y ago
    These need to be mandatory installations in all communities. Non-commercial, accessible spaces for people to congregate. It's a human-requirement.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• ticviking 10y ago
  I often work out of my neighborhood McDonald's when working from home. It's about the only non-faith based multi-generational space in town. The mix of kids, a few other freelancers, and retired folks is unique.
  • bovermyer 10y ago
    Coffee shops fill this role for my area. There is a Starbucks near my apartment that is a thriving multi-nationality community hub. This surprised me, since prior to experiencing this, most of the coffee shops I've been to have had a more... niche... clientele.
• grecy 10y ago
  > I am pretty sure the cheeseburger, apple slices, and chocolate milk are not much worse, and probably better, than the typical fare on a slapped together kids meal. Wow. It saddens me to see that statement. I thought it was commonly knowledge that McDonalds isn't actually "food" in the nutrition and health sense of the word any more than cotton candy and pure salt are.
  • zyxley 10y ago
    It's not particularly healthy food, but saying "it's not food" is anti-scientific gibberish.
  • CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
    Get a couple double cheeseburgers with no bun (meat and cheese only). An extremely affordable way to get a quick bite to eat while on a ketogenic diet.
    • DrScump 10y ago
      This. Using McDoubles instead will save you another $.80 or so.
  • stevecalifornia 10y ago
    If it's common knowledge, please link to some info about how a cheeseburger, apple slices and chocolate milk aren't food.
  • bilbo0s 10y ago
    To be fair to the original commenter... a "kid's meal" isn't typically "food" either in the nutritional sense. A lot of "food" made for "kids" is actually devoid of nutritional content in the best cases... and actually harmful in the worst cases.
    • ArtDev 10y ago
      Why the downvote? Have you read the ingredients list, its insane! My kids would rather eat cheap Maki rolls from a local sushi spot than American fast food. In many cases, it actually cheaper.
• FunctionalMan 10y ago
  People like to bash McDonalds, I love it. I'm a very health-conscious person. I'm 5'10", 155 pounds, 53 years old, and have a nicely defined body (you can see my abs!) It's easy to count calories in McDonald. An Egg McMuffin is 310 calories. A regular hamburger is 240, a Big Mac is 563. I can have an Egg McMuffin and black coffee for breakfast (310 calories), two regular hamburgers for lunch (480) calories, and a Big Mac for Dinner (563) and be at 1353 calories, which leaves me with 650 calories for healthy snacks (fruit, vegetables, yogurt) and be at 2,000 calories/day. It can be an excellent way for people on a budget to get some meat several times a weak. (Buy the hamburgers, w/o buns, and eat them with rice and broccoli!)
  • ciaranm 10y ago
    You're being downvoted because it's cool to hate on McDonald's, but I agree with you. From my experience in the UK, their menu is increasingly easy to find nutritional information for (the print it in big font on -all- of their packaging), and they offer alternatives for fries/sodas if you like. Much of the McDonald's menu is far healthier than 'real' restaurant equivalents, which use much more oil/salt because the international community isn't scrutinising every menu item.
    • ablation 10y ago
      I think they're being downvoted because they're a new account with no submissions and no other comments bar this one, which looks a little... ah... suspicious?
      • FunctionalMan 10y ago
        I've had a bunch of comments, but I think new users are shadowbanned by default.
        • kw71 10y ago
          I saw your "dead" comment, thought it was valuable. Your previous comments didn't appear to be antisocial so I vouched it. Your karma went up since then so apparently some people agree. You're still flagged for whatever reason, so whatever you write will still be invisible until someone using showdead comes along and decides it shouldn't be hidden.
• stevecalifornia 10y ago
  I recently went to a McDonald's in Austria. I was blown away by how they were going exactly for the community center vibe. There was a bar with four or five internet connected tablets a half-basketball court next to the jungle gym and patio seating like you'd find at an upscale resteraunt. It also had a dedicated coffee and desert bar. Also, the cash registers were gone and in their place were four huge touchscreens for ordering. The place was like a restaurant from 50 years in the future. I was shocked at how nice it was and that we don't have any in the US.
  • xeromal 10y ago
    There are a few in the US. They are just in select locations. I wrote software for McDs a while back and they were always coming up with high-tech initiatives. Too bad the environment was cut throat or I would have enjoyed working there.
    • keithpeter 10y ago
      What was the cause of the cut-throatness if I may presume to ask such a thing? Some form of performance related pay or just heavy headquarters politics? (in UK McDonalds is a franchise operation I think, not too sure, so each restaurant is its own little enterprise with standardised training &c)
  • noonespecial 10y ago
    There are "specialty" McD's in the US, they are just rare. This one springs to mind: http://www.yelp.com/biz/mcdonalds-orlando-10 http://www.yelp.com/biz/mcdonalds-orlando-10
  • ArtDev 10y ago
    There appears to be no similarity better domestic and foreign McDonalds. Foreign McDonalds have much fresher better tasting food. They can't cut corners like they do in the US.
  • mattbettinson 10y ago
    There are lots of the touch screens in Ontario, Canada, in and around Toronto. Really neat.
• RankingMember 10y ago
  I remember driving through a Native American reservation in the Southwest and stopping at a McDonald's after seeing not much of anything for miles and miles. I walked in and it was like everyone in the reservation was there hanging out it was so alive with conversation and activity. I'm not a McDonald's fan, but I'm glad they exist to serve purposes like that, because I'm not sure where else the people in that one would've gathered.
  • tobltobs 10y ago
    The interesting question is, if this is a sign for an achievement of McDonalds or a failure of the society?
    • mikeash 10y ago
      Yes.
    • wutbrodo 10y ago
      I wish the article had expanded on the unsuitability of community centers due to their bureaucracy. It just mentions it in a couple of words and never elaborates. It seems like it should be easy to provide just a simple public space with basic amenities, without even any activities (which is the low bar set by McDonald's). The big exception of course being that food isn't served, but running a little competent sandwich shop or something is far from impossible (every bus and train station I've been too manages that).
      • Normal_gaussian 10y ago
        It is the bureaucracy that amazed me about the Sikh community - or should I say lack of it. As long as you obey a few simple rules (essentially just no alcohol, tobacco, or being under the influence, cover hair, no shoes) you pretty much what you will. Notably with the Sikh's the langar hall (where langar, a free meal, is always served) is the hub of a Gurdwara - seemingly food is the great social leveller!
    • jernfrost 10y ago
• epx 10y ago
  In Brazil we have a similar effect with shopping centers/malls, that tend to be pretty, clean and safe, not just a bunch of stores (the store rent inside the mall is higher than a street store). Shopping center becomes the default place to go since there is food there, it is open on Sundays. One downside is that stores are mostly empty, which negates a bit the original idea (--> shopping <-- center, not meeting center). The only crowded place is where the food is, and the only really long line is the McDonalds ice cream. Then some people began to complain that there were too many "ugly people" (mostly poor and young teens that went there for the very same reasons as anyone else). There were some episodes of security barring the entrance of unaccompanied teens that looked "poor". Of course it didn't last long, cooler heads prevailed and I guess that McFlurries were not selling well :)
• andrewclunn 10y ago
  I can't tell if this is sponsored content or not...
  • appleflaxen 10y ago
    I'm not sure why you are being downvoted; I think it's a great question.
    • theoh 10y ago
      No sponsored content would mention the likelihood of readers sneering at the sponsor in the headline. The Guardian is a reputable paper, although, barring the views of a few commentators like Aditya Chakrabortty, it tends to have a complacent middle-class outlook on things.
• intellegacy 10y ago
  when I lived out of my car in SoCal, I wasn't familiar with starbucks yet and so I basically used McDonalds as my table/office/wi-fi/hangout spot for the first month. I have a soft spot for McDonalds despite what its critics may say. It's an inclusive place which accepts everyone: homeless, indigent, wealthy, kids, adults. It is cheap, unpretentious, and welcoming. That said, this was a special McDonalds in Pasadena that was clean, had numerous power outlets, and was exceptionally well-run. The McDonalds in the rest of LA were disgusting in comparison and refused to provide outlets, presumably to keep out homeless. I eventually switched to Starbucks because starbucks always has outlets, the coffee was slightly better (and had more options) and the wifi was significantly faster
• greenspot 10y ago
  McDonalds is the master in orchestrating food. I love McDonalds and I think their hamburger is the best hamburger, their french fries are the best and all the other menu options have this typical McDonalds design--everything, every single piece and ingredient is meticulously thought through and the final dish has a perfect taste. The taste you get for the carb in-take is unmatched. It's cool to hate McDonalds, I know and I don't care. All my friends would never take their kids to McDonalds. They even don't take their kids to the movies. This is our generation, all they want is 'organic', 'low fat' and 'please don't hurt' stickers on their overpriced crap food without having a clue how nutrition really works. Especially here in Europe, it's about positioning yourself as healthy and smart when educating others about McDonalds. All obesity in this world is caused by McDonalds, yes sure. It's true that most of McDonalds' customers rather belong to the one end of the spectrum but who cares? I still think that it's in particular the lower middle class which hates McDonalds and which wants to put themselves above even lower classes. They cannot stop telling others that McDonalds is bad and they have to get now some authentic burger at an underground burger place or a healthy Bircher Muesli for their little ones. Btw, the same folks don't go to Starbucks for the same reasons--because they know a better non-franchise place for their ridiculous fair traded organic flat white. Actually, it's not McDonalds those people don't like--it's their desperation and urge to be something better than they really are, the fear that people confuse them with being white trash instead of middle class. This is the main reason they buy overpriced organic food at 'upscale' locations. The upper classes do not care at all what others think and go from time to time to McDonalds. They don't need to pretend anything and are aware that going to McDonalds from time to time does not mean that's their daily diet. They understand that's about what you eat, that especially the total daily carb in-take and the right balance of carbs, protein and fat is crucial. McDonalds offers everything to eat well and balanced but it's often the lack of knowledge and education if people cannot manage this balance. With kids it's even better, McDonalds is the rare example where kids are welcome and it's a pleasure with them. Kids hate long sessions in any restaurant and all money left there is wasted when all kids want is a bowl of fries with ketchup. At McDonalds they love every second and usually they eat more than just the fries. This make the total experience a good and healthy one. For the record, I am super thin and live a healthy lifestyle as my kids do.
  • 10y ago
• pjmorris 10y ago
  In the early 1970's, after seeing the kids off to school, my mom and dad would get a cup of coffee at the McDonald's at the edge of the neighborhood, and sit and talk. The employees eventually told them that they thought mom and dad were having an affair; why else would they arrange to meet away from home? I only tell this as an off-topic fond memory, but perhaps it also serves to support the community idea through being a safe, cheap 'third place', and through the notion that the employees and customers treat each other as relationships, not just transactions.
• peterwwillis 10y ago
  Wal-Mart and McDonald's are the modern equivalent of the diner and malt shop that middle-class white people may be more familiar with (it seems this article was written with a specific readership in mind). Go to any small town or poor rural area, and these are the places people congregate. It has almost nothing to do with food, and more to do with a social space designed for people to gather comfortably. In Italy it's the piazza. In the UK & Ireland it's the pub. In more enclosed neighborhoods in the US it may simply be your neighbor's stoop, or a certain street or alley. Access to a social space facilitates human interaction & culture.
  • Pamar 10y ago
    In Italy we have Cafè's, which are usually in a piazza, but there are also other options.
• _Codemonkeyism 10y ago
  What astonishes me, is how often poor people go eating in a restaurant (e.g. breakfast in the first paragraph) when making breakfast at home (or lunch) is so much cheaper (as a fun exercise we often calculate the prices of our home lunch). Although I have a nice income, 80% of the time I bring my own food to work because restaurants are too expensive in my opinion to regularly use them. As a side note: I have the suspicion I'm addicted to fast food (McDonalds/Burger King). When I don't go there for some weeks, I have no urge and I'm fine. But as soon as I eat there, I have the urge for days to go back and have another burger.
  • niftich 10y ago
    To make food at home, you either need fresh, perishable ingredients and/or time to prep and cook. Even accessing fresh ingredients may be a hassle (see: food deserts), so eating off the dollar menu often feels like a better use of your money than making the trek to the grocery store to buy some perishables that you then have to cook before they go bad. It's similar to why poor people buy poor-quality shoes more often, as opposed to one high-quality pair once a year. EDIT: or cars. Poor people buy cars that are in poor condition because that's all they can afford, and they spend more money on it overall than if they could've gotten a better-quality car instead. It's expensive to be poor.
    • Karunamon 10y ago
      And just to add on to this, it's worse when you're cooking for one, it's far too easy to let ingredients go to waste. People never think about anything but the cash register price when making this comparison for some reason...
      • _Codemonkeyism 10y ago
        I agree cooking for one is not supported by - at least here in Germany - most super markets. Packaging is too big. The trick when I was cooking for myself is cook larger portions and put these into the fridge. Vary them when eating and don't try to keep raw ingredients instead of cooked food. Cooking for two is no problem though, especially if you cook the right things. Cooking for more then 2 and you really have no problems with ingredients going to waste. And you can buy some ingredients for cheap that last, e.g. I buy Japanese rice in 5kg or 10kg sizes, easy to keep in good condition for a long time and much cheaper than 500g from the super market.
• Spooky23 10y ago
  Not just in poor neighborhoods. I worked at one in high school... There were all sorts of regulars who'd stop in, especially in the morning. There was one group of WW2 vets who would come in every month.
  • greedo 10y ago
    When I worked for the Golden Arches in the early 80's, there was a daily group of 10 retired guys who ordered coffee, rarely a danish, and sat in a couple of tables for a few hours. They bitched about the weather, about politics, about "those damn kids" and especially when the price of a cup of coffee went up. It was a ritual in their day, and they weren't some downtrodden group; these were guys who had stories of WW2 that would chill you. They built this country and never considered Mickey D's with the disdain the current generation seems to feel.
    • pjlegato 10y ago
      Many younger people today find it hard to fathom, but the suburbs and fast food car culture were not (entirely) a capitalist plot executed by General Motors and McDonald's to brainwash the populace into unwitting wage-slave servitude. The WW2 generation built and adopted all that voluntarily, because they like it and think it's a much better way of life than how they lived before the war: in densely packed, dirty cities; unable to remotely afford a car; being obligated to cook for hours every single day before you could even eat a meal, and then often going to bed hungry because there was just not enough food to go around due to the Great Depression. They moved to the suburbs because they generally view having your very own car to drive places, and being able to pick up dinner on the way home in five minutes, as massive lifestyle improvements rather than impediments.
      • dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Many younger people today find it hard to fathom, but the suburbs and fast food car culture were not (entirely) a capitalist plot executed by General Motors and McDonald's to brainwash the populace into unwitting wage-slave servitude. Yeah, a significant part of it was about race rather than capitalism.
• splawn 10y ago
  This thread seems like its become a de-facto community center for high horses.
• Rudism 10y ago
  A few years ago my wife and I were coming back from a road trip to visit some friends and family in Canada, and we crossed back into the US at the Detroit/Windsor crossing. We were basically running on fumes by the time we got through the border, so drove around the Detroit side a bit in search of a gas station (it took a while to find one that wasn't clearly abandoned or in complete shambles). One thing I noticed is that among all of the boarded-up, graffiti-strewn buildings, homeless people sleeping in the gutters, abandoned houses and cars, the one shining beacon of normalcy was the McDonalds. The building was in perfect condition, the lot was clean, lights were on--it was very striking in contrast to the almost post-apocalyptic looking area of the city that surrounded it. I can totally understand why such a place would naturally attract people as a place to congregate in a neighborhood as poor as that one. Inexpensive food plus a building that not only still functions as shelter, but has electricity, bathrooms, heat/air conditioning--all things that you may very well not have at home (assuming you even have a home).
  • spike021 10y ago
    For what it's worth, that's just one example of a McDonalds. There was one location nearby where I went to college and its lot was frequently used by drug dealers and all kinds of shady types.
• jernfrost 10y ago
  Bizarre how the article seems to present this as a hopeful and positive thing about McDonalds. To me it is just another indicator of how broken American society is. A fast food place serving terrible and unhealthy food is becoming a gathering place for poor people who are probably the ones most in need of a healthier and better lifestyle. It is also a sad reminder of how society has gone so utterly wrong when the cheapest food is the absolutely worst food. This is of course not McDonalds fault, but society has allowed huge chains pushing cheap unhealthy food to the masses flourish. It isn't just about the food, but the sort of cultural wasteland a place like McDonalds is. Everything mass produced and equal everywhere. A country priding itself in diversity is drowning in homogeneity.
  • pweissbrod 10y ago
    I wish I could upvote this more. I also dont blame McDonalds as a company. Like any other restaurant they're forced to strike their own line between quality of ingredients vs price. Like any other restaurant they must pander to what their customer base wants. Their success is a reflection of what we have become as a society, gladly choosing such a faceless generic landmark as the focal point of our community. There is just something about it that feels soulless and submissive to me.
    • dreamdu5t 10y ago
      So where should the focal point of your community be? What super-sophisticated place do you socialize at? A bar? Starbucks? The mall? At home in front of the computer?
      • cloakandswagger 10y ago
        It's really not hard to find a communal gathering spot a little more high-brow than McDonald's For example, I live in the suburbs of San Francisco. Not far from me there is a delightful and quaint organic bakery, and across from that is a gorgeous park. On weekends after my kids finish lacrosse practice, my wife and I take them there and enjoy some cheap ($9 each) chocolate croissants while they play on their tablets in the park. People choosing to congregate in a McDonald's is as inconceivable as choosing to meet up in an outhouse or an abbatoir to me.
• iammyIP 10y ago
  The pictures look pretty sad and the mc donalds house is filled with a cloud of sugary sweetness. Kids may like it but if one is older and still likes it, i would assume that this person either got addicted to this in some form or simply has the stomach and tastebuds similar to a dog (which is nothing to be ashamed of).
  • gruez 10y ago
    Does that mean dog treats are super sweet and salty?
    • iammyIP 10y ago
      No, more like dogs don't care much about taste, as long as the food is somewhat edible and contains minimal nutritional value (some dogs eat shit or rotten carcass for example). That's why my guess is that their taste buds and stomachs are different.
• ArtDev 10y ago
  After getting mild food poisoning from a McDonalds, I would not return. Bad experience aside, the food is gross, unhealthy and not as cheap as a local restaurant that serves real food. However, foreign McDonalds are very very different. I would visit one of those again, sure. The quality is a world away different.
  • Kalium 10y ago
    I don't know about your city, but where I am I would struggle to find "a local restaurant that serves real food" for even 50% more than McD's. Probably 100%, if I'm going to limit it to within a block or two of where a McD's is. In a lot of places, chain restaurants are the cheapest and most reliable way to get something edible.
• codemonkeymike 10y ago
  It seem to me that the newly renovated McDonalds are more like Panera's so I can see the appeal to go there to hang and converse. My friends and I used to always hang out at McDonalds when we were kids because they don't care if you loiter for hours.
  • fluxquanta 10y ago
    >It seem to me that the newly renovated McDonalds are more like Panera's The McDonalds in my hometown used to be decorated completely in 1950's memorabilia. Lots of mint green and pink colors, old photographs of McDonalds of the time on the walls, big laminate figures of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe, models of cars of the time in a big display case, and even a working 45 record jukebox. It was a really cool place that a unique vibe to it. A few years back they "renovated" it to look, as you say, like a generic Panera Bread and it lost all its charm and appeal, not to mention the memories I associated with the place as a kid. Until I was like 13 or 14 years old I thought ALL McDonalds looked like that.
    • codemonkeymike 10y ago
      I can understand, the McDonalds in my hometown had the ball pit and all the 1950's fixings until about 5 years ago when they ripped it all out and did the same but the real killer was that the ball pit was replaced with a bunch of gamecube stations.
• redthrow 10y ago
  McDonald's often provides playgrounds for kids because local governments don't. https://youtu.be/F7IQyIWIcdI?t=12m42s https://youtu.be/F7IQyIWIcdI?t=12m42s
• hackuser 10y ago
  What's interesting is that the Guardian and HN feel the need to appraise us of what happens in low-income communities. On one hand, it's realistic - most people reading the Guardian or HN don't know (despite the fact that both are nearly as accessible in low-income communities as wealthy ones, at least via phones). On the other, what does it say that the readers have to learn about it in a newspaper or Internet forum. It might as well be a story about culture in a foreign country instead of within a short drive for most readers.
  • deleted 10y ago
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• ecommerceguy 10y ago
  Most people don't realize it, but McDonald's is not a burger-flipping restaurant chain; it is one of the world's best real estate portfolios. Franchisees flip the burgers. McDonald's simply owns the best commercial property all over the world. Think about it, every town and city in the Country and many of the world, who owns the best lot on highest traffic intersection? McDonald's.
  • mac01021 10y ago
    I thought the franchisees owned the property too, and that the franchiser just licenses the IP and provides the foodstuff.
    • DrScump 10y ago
      There are corporate-owned restaurants, and there are franchises. Stores can be on leased or owned land. For example, something like 8 McDonald's in San Francisco have closed or are closing in the past few years, many because of lost leases, supposedly. One rumored to be threatened location is 3rd and Townsend, a great location just one block from AT&T Park and a neighborhood institution (it was there long before the ballpark).
      • ecommerceguy 10y ago
        "We are in the real estate business, not the hamburger business." Ray Croc, Founder of McDonalds. "If a location is good enough to buy, we want to build on it right away and be in there before the competition. Pump some money and activity into a town, and they’ll remember you for it." Ray Croc, Founder of McDonalds
  • maxerickson 10y ago
    McDonald's is also doing product development and managing logistics. And thinking about the franchises around here, they are certainly in high traffic locations, but they aren't particularly in advantageous locations compared to their competitors.
• darawk 10y ago
  Does this not strike anyone else as pretty blatant native advertising?
  • alecdbrooks 10y ago
    It fits with Chris Arnade's other reporting on addiction, but it does seem a bit too focused on McDonald's and a bit too uniformly positive (aside from noting that readers might "sneer"). The Guardian does do native advertising [0], and I find their labeling policy unclear. This case study [1] by their native advertising division, Guardian Labs, highlights videos that are very clearly labeled [2] but also an article [3] that doesn't seem to be. Their policy on commercial content [4] seems to suggest that everything is clearly labeled, but at least in this case they either didn't follow it or ignored the distinctions in the case study. [0]: http://www.adweek.com/news/press/guardians-unusual-take-native-ads-155715 http://www.adweek.com/news/press/guardians-unusual-take-nati... [1]: http://guardianlabs.theguardian.com/projects/silent-circle-the-power-of-privacy http://guardianlabs.theguardian.com/projects/silent-circle-t... [2]: http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/ng-interactive/2015/sep/29/the-power-of-privacy-video-series http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/ng-interactive/2015... [3]: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/18/guardian-readers-on-privacy-we-trust-government-over-corporations https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/18/guardian-... [4]: https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding
• gyardley 10y ago
  This happens everywhere, with the establishment varying with the culture. In much of Canada, the local community center is the Tim Hortons. My labor studies professor back in the day wrote his doctoral thesis on this and (unfairly, in my opinion) won an Ig Nobel for it: http://ig-nobel.silk.co/page/Steve-Penfold http://ig-nobel.silk.co/page/Steve-Penfold
• abandonliberty 10y ago
  I was really impressed by the public spaces and squares in European designed cites. Real Mexican cities have lots of it as well. We have far less spaces for people, so this is understandable.
• walljm 10y ago
  My dad used to do all his studying at McDonalds (he was a pastor), and he worked there when I was growing up. We spent a lot of time as a family (because we were pretty poor) eating there and playing on the playgrounds. For most of my childhood, the first time I saw my dad was when he got home, at around 11am, after working a full shift at McDonalds. The smell of McDonalds has come to be firmly associated with home for me, and when I am feeling stressed, its where I go to eat. :)
• koralatov 10y ago
  (What follows is my own opinion, based on my own experience. It's not an intended as an attack on any one group, and shouldn't be construed as such. I'm making no value judgements, simply reporting what I saw and learned.) I spent two years working freelance for a community centre in the UK. I was working for the Centre's voluntary management committee, who had use of the building through an convoluted arms-length agreement with the local Council who actually owned the building and paid for its upkeep. The Council used some of the Centre's space for offices and the like. My objective was to expand the Association's programme of learning, creative, and health activities and increase the community's use of the Centre. The two years I did the work were educational. I learned a lot in the time, not all of it good. Several things really stuck with me. There are some people who are genuinely passionate and willing to give over large amounts of time working, for free, to build something they believe in for the benefit of others. Working with these people was inspiring. There are also at least the same number of people who are interested mostly in furthering their own agenda, their own pet projects, and will often act in a spiteful and overprotective fashion with that aim. Often, they'll actively work against something that has no effect whatsoever on their pet project, simply because it doesn't benefit their own pet project. Negotiating with these people, and working around the blocks they erect, was a huge challenge and not particularly enjoyable. The local Council's policies and institutional biases actively work against a community centre in many respects. There's so much red-tape that quite a lot of activities which would be popular can't run -- the burden imposed by the bureaucracy smothers it, and grinds down the people working underneath it. One example is a drop-in youth group: these ran for nearly 30 years in the Centre to huge success, but were infeasible now due to Council regulations and requirements; the Association would have had to employ multiple youth-workers (at £20+ an hour) where previously carefully vetted volunteers ran these groups. When working in a modern community centre with volunteers and professional community workers, 'community' usually means one of four things: the middle-class, ethnic minorities,* children, and people with special needs,* and with a heavy leaning towards females in all four of these group. (This feels like an appropriate time to remind reader that I'm not making any value judgements or attacks.) There is some effort made to reach the very, very poor (usually in the form of at-risk teens), but almost none made to engage with lower-income/working-class people. Males are similarly not a priority. Questioning this is extremely difficult, and too easily dismissed as sexism/racism/inverse snobbery. After my freelance work at the Centre finished, I spent nine months working in a supermarket in a poor part of town. It was pretty eye-opening. In that time, I got to know people from all walks of life, of all ages, and various nationalities. Each day as I was working, I spent time interacting with, and supporting, a genuine, organic community. I experienced more genuine community there than I ever did at the community centre -- and I was a part of that community. I saw the same customers every day, and often speaking to me and the other staff would be their only social contact that day. I never experienced that at the community centre: there, I almost exclusively interacted with people who had a strong, well-developed base and social structure around them. Council bureaucracy and the unquestioned biases existing within community work failed these people. Imposing a bureaucracy over a community impairs that community, unintentionally marginalises certain people, and causes community to develop unnaturally if it develops at all. When that happens, though, those who get left behind will do what humans naturally do, and develop a community of their own. I'm saddened that for some people this community has to be their local supermarket, but I'm incredibly grateful for the people who work there who take on this extra community work naturally and without any expectation of extra reward or recognition. * The correct term for these groups changes frequently. I'm using the ones which will be most widely understood and intend no offence.
• coliveira 10y ago
  Of course, this doesn't mean it is a good thing. The most probable reason is that poor neighborhoods are so much in need of public services that even a McDonalds will alleviate their problems. In a concrete sense, private companies have largely taken over public spaces and many have no other alternatives.
• vollmond 10y ago
  I live in a small-ish, suburb/rural large town in central PA. I have gone to McDonald's a couple of times in the late morning, and every time it's completely full of people over 75 socializing (including half the staff).
• lkrubner 10y ago
  It's not just poor neighborhoods. I live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. This is a mostly affluent area, but there are some homeless. There is a McDonalds at 95th street, on Broadway. I believe it is 24 hours, or at least it is open very late. Any time I walk home late at night, I notice that dozens of people are clustered around that place. It offers safety and warmth and a place people can talk to each other.
• Taylor_OD 10y ago
  I grew up in Vermont and there was a McDonalds on both sides of town. I've probably eaten at McDonalds that any other restaurant in my life. It's certainly a gathering place in my hometown. It's difficult to go and not run into someone you know.