16 ms·

All the lonely people

307 points by miraj 10y ago

ChuckMcM 10y ago
Again, something my grandfather taught me, was that it was important to walk around your neighborhood and say "hi" to the people who lived there. He called it "Being neighborly." We also, periodically but not on a particular schedule, put together a block BBQ where people can bring food, or not, and share a moment together to talk about what is going in or what they are worried about etc. Generally people respond well to the outreach, and as a consequence I know all of my neighbors on sight, and have shared experiences with many of them creating perhaps not a deep bond, but one which certainly gives anyone permission to approach and talk without an invitation. It pays benefits in surprising ways, when our dog was terrified of a pile of beeping smoke detectors and ran off without us looking, one of our neighbors both recognized him, and knew us, so called us to tell us they had brought him in and we could pick him up when ever we wanted. One of the families on our street has their grandmother living with them now. She is suffering some dementia like the woman in the article but everyone on the street knows her and I think keeps an eye out for her. All from being neighborly and just walking around and talking to people.
- stephengillie 10y ago
  Are you neighborly with the homeless people and beggars in your neighborhood? This is a genuine question. How do you interact with people who live on your street but do not have shelter?
  - lisper 10y ago
    I spent two years getting to know many of the homeless people in (what was at the time) my neighborhood, and made a movie about the experience: http://graceofgodmovie.com http://graceofgodmovie.com You should watch it. I think you might be surprised. I was.
    - stephengillie 10y ago
      One of the problems in activating the homeless population is that they're not a community - most people have a life situation, lose their shelter, have a rough time, get back on their feet, and then can afford to rent again. There are some who live without permanent shelter perpetually, but this community is a small fraction of the overall population, and they have different goals.
      - dvanduzer 10y ago
        Indeed, for any given nomad, you'd have to ask them their goals to know which ones they had.
  - coderdude 10y ago
    I am. I look them in the eyes and treat them like people. I know from the people I talk to that the worst part is having everyone ignore you and not treat you like a fellow human. It breaks my heart. It sucks out there. We might be off topic but I get you.
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    Yes I am. There is one gentleman who is around fairly regularly, he doesn't have a permanent home and he is fiercely proud of that. He has money to buy stuff if he wants. He likes to read and will often trade books with the used book store or ask for books from garage sales as he sees them. He was reading one Asimov's Foundation books when I met him sitting next to his stuff. We don't get as many outright beggars but occasionally we do. One person I talked with who was simply demanding cash I suggested we trade stories. I'd tell him a story and he could tell me a story. If we agreed he had the better story I would give him $6 (which is the price of a typical paperback book). I told him about the birth of my daughter and how it changed me in ways I didn't expect. He told me about of joining the Navy rather than being sent to jail for shoplifting, and learning the fastest way to clean a mess hall that had just fed 80 sailors who had been sea sick. I gave him the $6. But strangely he didn't really want it, he wanted to tell me more of his stories. But I was out of time so I said if I saw him around again I would ask for another story. Sadly I didn't see him later. He really was a pretty good story teller. The people who have been problems have either been high (drunk or drugs) or mentally damaged. No fault of their own but they simply weren't in a place to be human. My wife and I called 911 and helped one guy get to the hospital, he was passed out in the parking lot of Safeway. He didn't appreciate the help but I continue to feel it was the right call.
    - stephengillie 10y ago
      Thank you for the well-told stories. And for being a role model, these are heartening and inspiring. Wasn't meaning to call you out, but it felt awkward to transition out of 2nd person.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    I ignore him completely. I'm unimpressed with anyone who travels thousands of kilometres to sit in the street and beg.
- asksol 10y ago
  I was also brought up to greet people, but try to greet neighbors in London, UK and they will look at you like you fell from the sky. Most of them will not even give a response. Big cities are a lot like this now.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    A big part of the problem is that when you just walk up to someone they don't really know what your intentions are. My wife is actually currently working on this problem though. She is an event planner and has started running meetups specifically for people who are looking to meet new people. It has worked pretty well in the US, but we're actually going to be moving to London (assuming my visa comes through...).
    - dvanduzer 10y ago
      The idea is to make yourself visible as someone who is friendly, so that people approach you. (Granted, this might not be something you want to start out with as a total newcomer to a neighborhood like London.)
    - asksol 10y ago
      People need more venues to meet new people, but by greeting I meant more like saying "evening!" when you pass your next door neighbor in the hallway. I don't think there's an expectation to chat in this case. If I wanted to chat I'd start with "excuse me," and probably walk up first as you say. A greeting can be made from across the street, and sometimes just lifting your hat in response is enough (I don't have one, but I have seen people do this).
      - afarrell 10y ago
        Yea, that is in fact one reason that I wear a hat.
  - mrcsparker 10y ago
    Keep greeting them - they will come around. I am from the US South and not saying hello (or waving when they pass by) is considered bad manners. I have done this all my life and people have told me that they like it when someone says "good morning" with a smile. Maybe I am lucky or biased, but I don't care. I like it when people are nice and I treat people the way that I want to be treated. I sometimes have to spend a lot of time in New York and the people are the same. I just push through it. They won't change me because I like it when people are pleasant. Plus, the world is a nicer place when people are nice to you.
- m0llusk 10y ago
  This is terribly naive. I walk around my neighborhood saying hi to people and they call me names because I am a member of a number of disrespected minorities. Social cohesion is a much more complicated problem than walking around and talking to people.
  - billmalarky 10y ago
    Yikes. I hope your situation is the exception not the rule.
  - Cerium 10y ago
    It doesn't always work, but if you don't try it always doesn't work.
  - hackaflocka 10y ago
    Here's an alternative: have a warm smile on your face, but don't make eye contact.
- 13of40 10y ago
  I can't even imagine a block party in my neighborhood. We'd have the 24 year old tech multi-hundred-thousandaire from across the street mingling with the Mormons to the right and the shut-in imminent foreclosure retiree to the left bumping shoulders with the gangster guys on the corner and the kitty-corner mother-of-twelve trying to feed her kids up on hot dogs but keep them from listening to any of the conversation. Then some douchebag would blow down the street in his Mustang at 40 miles an hour, totally oblivious to the barbecues and plastic tables covered in red plastic cups...
  - hackaflocka 10y ago
    LA? NYC? Miami?
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    Ouch! To be honest one of the things you have to do if you're going to shut down the street is get a permit from the city. You fill out all the parts about what your event is about, time, etc. And there is a box to check for whether or not you will require a police presence (extra cost of course). We have always joked that it would be a pretty raucous block party that needed police to keep order, but I imagine there are blocks where that could be the requirement.
  - malyk 10y ago
    But that's the whole point. All those people have more in common than you realize and its knowing each other that makes people care about their neighborhoods/neighbors. Every year there is something called National Night Out which I had never heard about before moving to Oakland. But all across the city neighborhoods block off their streets and have a big cookout in the middle of the street. Because of that we've met all of our neighbors and, at the very least, can say hello and not be "that tech dude ruining the neighborhood" or "that Latino family whose kids are always hanging around outside", etc. Instead we have some shared experience that brings us closer together even if it just means we aren't shy about saying hello. You never know, maybe those gangbangers make a killer brisket!
- abraham_s 10y ago
  Strangers greeting me on the street was a culture shock when I moved from India to US (to Salt Lake City,UT). Often my brain won't process it in time to return the greeting before the person has passed me. Sometimes I will bungle the reply (saying "same to you" in reply to "Good Morning") or just smile in return or nod. If you have greeted someone on the street and hasn't gotten any response back, please don't take it to heart.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    For what it's worth, I think "same to you" is a perfectly fine reply to "good morning." So is a smile or nod.
    - adriand 10y ago
      Agreed, it's a totally normal response. But when you get into the habit of saying it, you also tend to use it when the boarding personnel say, "Have a nice flight!"
  - jkaljundi 10y ago
    This is how and Estonian or a Finn would feel: http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/ http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/
    - jcrei 10y ago
      I tried for a few months when I first arrived in Estonia. I got mixed reactions and was about to give up, but then my neighbours were the ones greeting me. I have since made a point of greeting any neighbour I meet in my building.
    - Svip 10y ago
      How odd, as a Scandinavian (more precisely: Dane), I can relate to almost all of those. Maybe it's a Nordic thing and not just a Finnish thing? Bus stops need a lot of place here, because people don't want to stand close together, for instance.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  I wouldn't go greeting people randomly. But if it's somewhat related to your day by day, by all means do (neighbours, attendants in nearby shops, people you know, etc) One thing I've noticed about Canadians is that despite their supposedly friendliness they don't give a f. about you. Granted, different cultures and ways to express feelings (canadian.show_emotion returns NotImplementedException) but it seems their threshold of caring (even a bit) for someone is high
  - ido 10y ago
    That's interesting. What led you to this observation? I've only visited for a few weeks but my impression of "random Canadians" is that they care a lot more than random Germans and Austrians (or at least seem to?).
    - raverbashing 10y ago
      Can't tell much about the Austrians, but Canadians definitely care less than the average German They may be friendly and talkative, yes, but it's mostly for politeness. You might see they quickly lose interest after a bit Now your average German will be a little bit interested in a legitimate conversation (of course if this goes nowhere that's fine as well)
      - uola 10y ago
        While I think Germans, and people of culturally similar countries (Austria, Switzerland) are usually quite nice I have a hard time saying they genuine care about other people. Since rationalizing others misfortunes (or most things really) seem to be deeply ingrained in society.
        raverbashing 10y ago
        It might depend a lot on the region of Germany as well, for example Bayern is in some ways more "laid back" and traditional (Austria seems close culturally to Bavaria than other parts of Germany)
- greggman 10y ago
  I just wanted to say Thank You. It basically takes someone to step up and organize. If no one does it it doesn't happen. If someone takes the initiative and organizes a block party it's a huge step in getting people to know each other.
- halov 10y ago
  The Messenger of Allah said: "Gabriel continued to recommend me about treating the neighbors kindly and politely so much so that I thought he would order me to make them as my heirs." "Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity, commanding good and forbidding evil is charity, your giving directions to a man lost in the land is charity for you. Your seeing for a man with bad sight is a charity for you, your removal of a rock, a thorn or a bone from the road is charity for you. Your pouring what remains from your bucket into the bucket of your brother is charity for you."
- ipsi 10y ago
  I think the whole "Block Party" thing works better in smaller places. e.g. In NY, unless you had a BBQ on the roof, it probably wouldn't be possible (and where would you put everyone who turned up?). Similar in London - yes, I could have a block party, technically, but it's all terraced housing, so (a) there would be a lot of people - probably too many, and (b) given property prices, most are probably renters, meaning they probably don't feel a sense of permanence or belonging in quite the same way a homeowner would. Maybe that's a big part of it? Not just that you have so many neighbours it breaks Dunbar's Number, but that in cities with high property prices, odds are good most of your neighbours will be renting, and perhaps only for a limited time, whereas in smaller cities, you can buy a place, and it's quite possible that your neighbours are going to be your neighbours for 10, 20, 30+ years, versus maybe 1 - 2 years when talking about renting. It's a much bigger return on investment.
branchless 10y ago
I don't know Canada well enough yet, but I can tell you what life used to be like in the UK in my mum's time as a kid, around 55 years back in the North East of England. All families lived near each other and you lived near your school. You'd walk home past your nan's house and stop in there or at your uncles. Maybe when you got home your mum was out at the shops - ok go to your nan's a few yards away. Or just go to your neighbour, she knows you and should your mum be delayed long will feed you. Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance, they made the credit available which sets the price. Access to local housing was limited. You had to go and get the best paying job you could just to compete in the "market". This meant moving away. There were other reasons too like the destruction of local industry (forced out in part as land prices rose making them uncompetitive vs countries without efficient rent extraction). Plus brain drain into rentier activity in the capital. But for me land prices are at the heart of destroying communities. I don't see community returning until we expel the usurers from the temple. Why is living on a piece of land so damn expensive? We don't have time for each other any more as we work insane hours. Both husband and wife have to work, leaving no time for other work in the community like stopping in to see a neighbour. All these tasks that were unpaid are now "on the clock" and the banks get a cut via renting money via debt creation for land. My mum didn't have loads of libraries or "urban design" somehow coaxing people to interact. What that street did have is that they were not living in a time where ever single person was giving a big wedge of their wages to the banks thereby forcing them all to work all the time.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- losteric 10y ago
  We live in a society heavily oriented around consumption and under increasing pressure from technology... the market mindset has consumed the world. It's debatable whether wandering shrinking families are a symptom or a cause.
  - branchless 10y ago
    You can avoid consumption. You can't avoid the need to sleep relatively near to your work.
protomyth 10y ago
One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd) is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have started to fade. The amount of social welfare the churches supported has not been replaced.
- xj9 10y ago
  This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.
    - jmspring 10y ago
      Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.
      - wallflower 10y ago
        "When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
      - hueving 10y ago
        McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.
baron816 10y ago
HN is all about technology, but I think many people here don't realize that technology is about access. Aluminum is the third most common element on Earth, but up until fairly recently, it was prized above gold and other precious metals because it was seemingly so rare. People just didn't have the technology to access it in large quantities. And just as someone stranded at sea can die of thirst, so too is it paradoxical that one can find themselves brutally alone in a city with millions of other people. The problem is that they don't have access. My company, Krewe (https://www.gokrewe.com https://www.gokrewe.com) aims to be that technology that will give people access to each other and help them form meaningful connections. It places people who all live in the same neighborhood into small groups, and encourages them to meet often. The pernicious scourge of loneliness must end, and I hope I can provide a solution.
- baybal 10y ago
  ignore
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    unsubscribe
- somethingz 10y ago
  Fucking kill yourself.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ojbyrne 10y ago
I grew up in Canada and now in the US and after reading this, the first thing I thought of after reading this is - there are vastly fewer neighborhood bars in Canada. Strict drunk driving laws (obviously more important) and cold winters seemed to lead to the only viable bars being large clubs or in downtown cores where there's tourists.
- alexland 10y ago
  That's a very interesting thought. I've also noticed that in Metro Vancouver the majority of pubs are on busy streets or in dense city areas, rather than neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the people I know (mostly 20-somethings) tend to gravitate towards the city core for social outings, and so I end up very rarely trying the few neighborly pubs in the suburbs.
petecox 10y ago
Where do they all come from?
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  Beatles
  - erac1e 10y ago
    dont be silly
unculate 10y ago
Sometimes, the most amazing thing about HN is the absolute quackery displayed in the form of downvotes.
kstenerud 10y ago
The more I read about this, the more weird I think I must be. I've always preferred being alone. My time in San Francisco was utter hell. I couldn't get a moment away from people and noise. Now I live in complete isolation. My nearest neighbor is two miles down a dirt road. I only go into town to stock up on foods, which I vacuum seal and stuff in the deep freeze (enough to last me 3 months at a time). I've never been happier than I am now.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  I'd bet it helps that you can talk to people whenever you want on this website (and others). Human interaction.
  - kstenerud 10y ago
    I suppose so. This is the only site I participate in, but I usually end up posting a comment every week or two.
- sseagull 10y ago
  I get that feeling as well, sometimes. Even though I don't want quite your level of isolation, I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else in person for days (except my wife). I sometimes think of it as the 'tyranny of the extroverts'. Since they are, well, extroverted, they are the ones controlling the narrative of what's 'normal', while the introverts are too introverted to really speak up. Extroverts are the ones saying cities are better than rural areas since there's more to do, etc (see other HN threads). I'm with you, though. I will take a quiet, rural or semi-rural area over a city any day.
  - hueving 10y ago
    I'm introverted and I still prefer more population because it offers a lot more diversity in restaurants and grocery stores (I like to eat all kinds of stuff). I also enjoy the bustle of people even though I don't prefer to talk to any random individual.
  - 10y ago
known 10y ago
Due to lack of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility and not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility
phantom_oracle 10y ago
and unlike solving the problem of horizontal scaling, a mathematical equation or something with a clear solution, there is no clear, Silicon Valley style cure to this problem. You can't exactly Facebookify people who are lonely. Also, AFAIR(r=recall), Japan has a similar issue of loneliness. Makes you wonder though. Even if you cure the economic (poverty) and health issues (living into your old age), something else will probably get you (depression, loneliness, boredom, etc.)
- losteric 10y ago
  I can't help but remember Calhoun's utopia experiment: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1...
  - tomcam 10y ago
    Counterintuitive, amazing, horrifying. Everyone should read about this experiment. I would love to know if it has been re-created.
    - ddt_Osprey 10y ago
      If you like that, you'll love this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair
      - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        Where we learn more about the experimenter than the subject.
sidcool 10y ago
Loneliness is a curse of some cultures.
some_hero-_- 10y ago
I was a semi introvert and extrovert guy but after working for one startup for more than 3 years in isolated environment makes me feel like i am fully introvert. There is no one with whom i can express my feelings openly. I don't have friends to hangout, and the most depressing thing is the people of my age have all this thing. What's more awkward is I can't even able to approach people, seems like i forgotten how to interact. The other reason might be, i was afraid to not look like looser. Most of the people consider me quite successful and showing such weakness in front of society is not acceptable. I have lot of ideas in my mind but i don't have energy to execute. My bank balance is good but it doesn't bring happiness. I don't have time on my hand. Sometimes i feel like i do sucide but i am strong men. I don't recommend anyone to start a startup unless he socially fit and not under his early 20s.
- combatentropy 10y ago
  I'm sorry you're in this situation
- hackuser 10y ago
  Isolation is so painful; it's literally traumatic for people. You are not at all the only one; in fact, what you are experiencing is a perfectly normal reaction. Humans are fundamentally social beings; without other people to socialize with, our cognitive and emotional systems don't function properly. For example, for children, I believe it's well established that even abuse by parents is better for them than abandonment. A much more extreme example is people in solitary confinement, who experience serious mental and emotional problems due to their almost complete lack of human contact (beyond anything even isolated people experience out in society). Your social skills and energy will return naturally when you feel better. Consider finding a good therapist who you feel comfortable with. Not only will you have someone to talk to, but they can help you understand and manage your problems and help you develop the skills to do the things you want to do. I would love to read on HN someday that it worked out well for you. Take care.
- fratlas 10y ago
  I can empathise with this - I was edging on being an extravert until I took about a year of remote work. I think social skills come from practice and exposure, so when you stop interacting with people for great lengths of time, your skills weaken and you want isolation out of fear of showing your ineptitude. It's a vicious cycle; the only solution I have found is putting yourself in a social environment by force (i.e. workplaces, clubs etc).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
baybal 10y ago
I got -10 for that comment above, can somebody give me some karma?
ashitlerferad 10y ago
People are assholes :(
- RIMR 10y ago
  I live in a city, and I hear people screaming incoherently outside my window on a nightly basis. This is because my neighborhood has a sizable homeless population. Am I an asshole for not making nightly 911 calls to report this?
  - RickS 10y ago
    I am currently in this situation. It's case by case. Guy screaming "help, I'm dying!" I called 911. Two bums fighting over a bike? It will be over before the cruiser arrives.
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    One of the reasons I left the city and will never return; it drove me crazy. When I hear someone scream where I live now I know it is serious, I know who it is and I know that at least 5 other people already called the police (or ambulance/fire dep). It also rarely happens.
  - erac1e 10y ago
    how do you get any sleep? ocean machine?
roansh 10y ago
As far as I understand - according to the article, loneliness in itself is not a bad thing for the health but what it brings with itself - the possibility of depression, possible risk of suicide, inactivity hence possibility of obesity and diabetes. I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it!
- mercer 10y ago
  I think loneliness by definition includes the negative effects. What you're talking about is 'solitude'. >I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it! I'm one of those people who loves being alone, and I often ask myself the same question. From my experience so far, the risks you mention are lower overall, but they're still there. I t is often interaction with others that prompts me to be more physically active, eat healthier, etc, in the same way I suppose that it's generally easier to commit to doing or not doing something if you're responsible to someone else. I find that as much as I love being alone, my thinking and behavior slowly 'deteriorates' and sometimes it can actively make me unhappy. I do think this can be alleviated to a large degree by being disciplined, but then that in itself is often easier with others 'watching you'. It's fascinating and I'm now wondering how much research has been done into solitude, rather than loneliness specifically...
  - kome 10y ago
    What if "solitude" is just a social and personal acceptable way to talk about "loneliness"? I was thinking about those people who call themselves "expats" and not "immigrants". In other way: the rich is "solo", the poor is "lonely".
    - sseagull 10y ago
      I'd say it's a difference in desire, although I'm sure there's some amount of denial out there ("I'm not lonely, I'm just solitary") If you want human interaction but don't get it, that's loneliness. If you truly don't want it to begin with, that's solitude. If you don't want human interaction but get it anyway, that's hell (to an introvert, anyway).
aaron695 10y ago
> When she couldn’t find her way back home, confused and scared, she screamed for help. She banged on people’s doors and tried to claw her way into vehicles, setting off car alarms. > Neither offered to help, nor called 911 — they pulled the curtains shut and went back to bed. This is a insult to my intelligence. This sort of emotive bullshit is both a lie (This is not what happened) and totally unconstructive. There is a serious topic around this issue of care for people above food and shelter, it's just a shame this article is so piss poorly written.
- RIMR 10y ago
  That was my thought too. It seems that the author was trying to tell the story in such a way as to pull on the most heartstrings. I live in a city, and if I hear incoherent screaming outside of my apartment, I ignore it. I figure calling 911 every night would eventually get me in trouble, so I just accept that loud, mentally ill homeless frequent my neighborhood at night.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    Then you've decided that you value your convenience over strangers' lives. As I said above, look into the Kitty Genovese murder, for example. That's your decision to make, but don't try to dress it up as something else.
- sverige 10y ago
  So you doubt that the reporting is accurate? I don't. It's very believable to me that people would ignore some disturbance outside in a suburban neighborhood. Granted, this is an anecdote that illustrates one of the stranger aspects of isolation, and probably wouldn't happen everywhere, but I think that's the point: in some places, absolutely no one will help you. So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.
  - aaron695 10y ago
    > So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive. Sorry, it is of course a lie. You shouldn't need evidence. If you think this sort of thing happens you are a very very broken human being. 'You' are the actual problem, because the people in these stories are not real. But people who believe these stories are. I shouldn't need to link evidence but I will in the hope that perhaps the truly awful humans who think people will knowingly leave a screaming a grandmother to die in the cold might change the awful way they think. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-desperate-attempt-to-stay-alive-in-freezing-temperatures/article562552/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-d...
dominostars 10y ago
Having community, closeness, and realness is so important for our growth but so lacking in our environments. The only way most people know to find community is through partnership (which has its obvious flaws e.g. divorce rates), or in the work place, which is often lacking in meaningful connection. Family structures are weak, and the communities formerly facilitated by religions are not being supplemented in our new, growingly secular world. The internet can provide some amount of valuable community and support, but it's limited. Words in text can only convey so much. You can't be held. You can't shout and scream and be irrational. It's easier to hide than confront difficult emotions. Therapy is so valuable, and its stigmatization hurts us all, but it's also limited. It's just one person, with one set of beliefs. They aren't there with you in the heat of a difficult situation. And honestly, there's something so gross about having to pay hundreds of dollars just to find someone to be real with.
advertising 10y ago
In the states I found people will look you in the eye when oassing by and some will say hello. Most will respond back if you say hello or how are you. When I'm in Mexico it's almost rude not greet someone with a customary "buenas dias/tardes/noches" In Japan rarely people will look you in the eye period.
- theaeolist 10y ago
  On the other hand, try asking for help on the street in Japan. The level of helpfulness of random people is amazingly high.
  - advertising 10y ago
    Most definitely. Most countries I've found that's true. Save for the last time I was in Paris haha.
sbardle 10y ago
I've been involved in a number of "community building" initiatives. What I've learned is that it is easy to start the community, but soon enough people start getting political and the infighting begins - it often only takes one or two people to ruin it for everybody else.
sgt101 10y ago
I wonder if the story about H1B visas and older americans being sacked provides a hint of a back story here. It seems to me that social solidarity impedes immediate profits; things like healthcare and pensions are very awkward for folks who want to smash open the value locked up in corporations for redeployment into yachts and sports cars. The consequences have been out of the public eye till now, but as the boomer bulge starts being the focus of this, and as boomers discover that they are working till they are 80 and retiring poor maybe things will change. How to change things - well that's going to be one of the challenges of the future.
markdown 10y ago
OT: No part of this article is visible above the fold. http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg
jokoon 10y ago
I'm so angry about that issue. Long post ahead. I remember an experience of mine. At 19, I wanted to flee my dad's home, which was in Paris's center-near suburb, because my mother in law was emotionally harassing me, she was very intolerant towards my presence at home and it was generating a great deal of anxiety in me. Before taking off, I called my dad, and he convinced me to rent AND PAY for a small apartment 20min from home. I went to school, still the same isolated and nerdy teen. The 3rd year, as I was failing to get a degree and diving into depression, I did not look for a school program (getting registered in higher education in france is very weird), so I stayed at this small apartment, ALL EXPENSES PAID! I just let myself be abandoned. I stayed on my computer all day long, going to bed 2h later than the day before, so at some points I was getting in bed at 9am, and waking up at 17pm. Only my grand parents came in to help me do some shopping (I never had a driving license). During that 3rd year, the 2007 crash came in, my father sent me to my mother (who has been chronically unemployed in a small remote town) because he could not pay that rent anymore. My mother really helped me because I had social contact with her and my sister, and it helped me a lot. I found a girlfriend, but we're fighting, and for the life of me I just can't contemplate the thought of being alone again, it terrifies me. So essentially I'm in that "friend zone", but I don't complain and we are still good friends. My thought on loneliness ? I think modern society, with individualism, has compartmentalized personal space to such a degree that people don't have ANY opportunity to talk to people. We all have our own personal: * washing machine * fridge * oven * kitchen * toilet * bathroom * tableware * terrace Individualism means that compartmentalization of ownership allows for better management of resources. The REALITY, is that we don't share ANYTHING. We actually live in our own prison cell. This is fine if you have a job that implies social interaction, but for those who don't have a job, or have a job that doesn't involve social interaction, you will lose your social skills pretty quickly. And that's not a myth, that's what psychiatry says. My cynicism tells me that despite the fact that modern democracies have a higher standard of living for all sorts of reasons, I can really envision a disintegration of that modern society if nothing gets done. I can really envision why much poorer countries can thrive and surpass wealthier countries for that reason only: because ultimately, if social atrophy increases, it doesn't predict good things...
- jokoon 10y ago
  I'm reading that comment again, and by rent and pay I meant that he paid for it. (english is not my main language, sorry). I was actually not independent financially. I would have preferred being in a foster home or anything else than being spoon-fed by my family.
tluyben2 10y ago
When I lived in different cities people would find it extremely weird when I talked to them or said hi on the street; guys would think I wanted something from them and girls would think I wanted them. With many people around me constantly, it was a very lonely experience; hard to get to know people (I have a weird/rare first name and one of the bar guys of our local (popular) cafe we went to every friday had the same first name; after 2 years he didn't know what I always ordered or who I was) at all, let alone make friends. I started to believe the statement which people always put forward; you don't make new good friends after 30. I had colleagues at the office including my some of my long term high school / uni friends but there was no point of living in an (expensive) city for that. We packed up and left (it was a decision on a drunk night when, once more, we found ourselves sitting in a Kirchner painting of a place where no-one looks at or interacts with each other) for a tiny place deep in the mountains of another country (we moved from the Netherlands to Spain). Everyone talks to everyone here, a few years in we not only made new friends but even people we would call new best friends. Our closest neighbour is 5 minutes walk and the closest bar 10 minutes, so if we don't want to see anyone, we can and if we want a party with a mix of friends and strangers: at least 2 times a week, but in the summer 4 times a week, we can. Because this is a place tourists usually avoid (it is high up in the mountains and most people really don't like that; they want beach and some blue drink with a parasol), the people that do want to live here (and weren't born here) have the same kind of attitude. Great place to work with a laptop in the sun.
- therealdrag0 10y ago
  That sounds nice. What town/mountains?
firebender6 10y ago
Where I currently live in (Bangalore, India), the community includes a large no of young people who've migrated from rural to urban places due to work or for studies. A lot of us are also first time graduates with financial dependents. In tech industry (where I work), the current work culture has made sustaining a friends circle (support system) outside of work really hard; even more so when they live in different cities. I personally see co-workers & friends who struggle to cope with stress at work, staying away from home/family/trying to sustain a relationship. The sad part is that it rarely gets spoken about. In our case time not invested in relationships during 20's (when one is also building his/her career) is a major reason for loneliness as people get older. Nothing that we have done so far has equipped us to handle it. An over-competitive job market only makes things worse. Prioritizing family/friends often gets interpreted as not being motivated/hardworking enough and has huge penalties (direct and indirect) associated with it. I really hope corporates begin to see the importance of healthy & happy workers not just on book, but in practice as well.
morgante 10y ago
I'm not sure that the root causes are accurate in this article. I think loneliness transcends poverty and in many cases can be aggravated by wealth: many of the poorer people I know have to depend on social connections for things which I can buy. Also, this comment seems really off: > The homeless are, almost by definition, alone. In my understanding, many homeless people frequently communicate with each other.
emmelaich 10y ago
Definitely Nordic. I think I'm Nordic though I was born and live in Australia :-) http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-different http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-differen... (oops - finger spasm made me move this from a reply to top level and lose me 3 karma points!)
tacostakohashi 10y ago
I've been thinking about this a little over the past few weeks, and one thing that seems to be missing these days is communities where there is even the slightest barrier to entry. In the old days (even 20-30 years ago), geography served that purpose, and after that, what seems to have been a golden age where vaguely like-minded people could congregate and get to know each other on amateur radio, CB radio, BBSs, usenet, IRC, etc. It seems like these days, all we have are massive communities like facebook, meetup, etc, and although there are interest-specific groups, there just isn't any friction to keep the idiots out, and you're not much more likely to meet interesting people there than you are on the street or in a subway car. I'd be interested to hear of anybody's experience with any modern communities that have even just a tiny barrier to entry, which serves the purpose of making them even just a little bit more efficient at allowing people to find each other and network.
tpallarino 10y ago
As one of my favorite musical groups so aptly put it "The Lonely People Are Getting Lonelier"
brighta 10y ago
Do not get that lonely. What for? Use my expertise not to feel blue. It is essential to have a solid foundation for your trip and what else but a good hotel can reinforce it. I know it for sure as I have stayed at one. I found myself in Canada and was in a need of a hotel to stay at for a couple of days. I came across with www.hotelyouwant.com/america/canada/ and was so much delighted. Thus guys made feel great there, no time to feel upset and lonely. Be brave!
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brighta 10y ago
Do not get that lonely. What for? Use my expertise not to feel blue. It is essential to have a solid foundation for your trip and what else but a good hotel can reinforce it. I know it for sure as I have stayed at one. I found myself in Canada and was in a need of a hotel to stay at for a couple of days. I came across with www.hotelyouwant.com/america/canada/ and was so much delighted. Thus guys made feel great there, no time to feel upset and lonely. Be brave!
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brighta 10y ago
When it comes down to traveling, all you need is saving your energy, arranging time and making the trip different. Different? Is this the right word in here? Yes, indeed! I learnt it from my experience. http://www.hotelyouwant.com/ http://www.hotelyouwant.com/ will simplify this problem quick as a wink. In fact, even if you are on vacation having plenty of time, let us be honest, you do not want to pursue a research, potter on the Internet coming across with unreliable sites. You want it to be quick, reliable and suitable. Everybody wants. For fair, it is so good when everything you are looking for is put together at one place. I’ve found it. The platform provides decent and extraordinary places to hole up. They do not have just a worn-out hotel that can be seen in any town. Guys make the process of searching easier, more interesting and time-saving. There you have a mine of stunning spots to stay at in any part of world. Any plans to travel to the USA or Japan, Argentina or Tunisia? Now it’s evident where to go. Browse the website, pick the suitable country, read the posts. They’re giving the most relevant information on the most unusual and unique hotels and must-have places to be visited. It cannot be that simple and convenient, but it is. It is just worth trying because it helps out. Have a nice trip!

307 points by miraj 10y ago

Again, something my grandfather taught me, was that it was important to walk around your neighborhood and say "hi" to the people who lived there. He called it "Being neighborly." We also, periodically but not on a particular schedule, put together a block BBQ where people can bring food, or not, and share a moment together to talk about what is going in or what they are worried about etc. Generally people respond well to the outreach, and as a consequence I know all of my neighbors on sight, and have shared experiences with many of them creating perhaps not a deep bond, but one which certainly gives anyone permission to approach and talk without an invitation. It pays benefits in surprising ways, when our dog was terrified of a pile of beeping smoke detectors and ran off without us looking, one of our neighbors both recognized him, and knew us, so called us to tell us they had brought him in and we could pick him up when ever we wanted. One of the families on our street has their grandmother living with them now. She is suffering some dementia like the woman in the article but everyone on the street knows her and I think keeps an eye out for her. All from being neighborly and just walking around and talking to people.

stephengillie 10y ago
Are you neighborly with the homeless people and beggars in your neighborhood? This is a genuine question. How do you interact with people who live on your street but do not have shelter?
- lisper 10y ago
  I spent two years getting to know many of the homeless people in (what was at the time) my neighborhood, and made a movie about the experience: http://graceofgodmovie.com http://graceofgodmovie.com You should watch it. I think you might be surprised. I was.
  - stephengillie 10y ago
    One of the problems in activating the homeless population is that they're not a community - most people have a life situation, lose their shelter, have a rough time, get back on their feet, and then can afford to rent again. There are some who live without permanent shelter perpetually, but this community is a small fraction of the overall population, and they have different goals.
    - dvanduzer 10y ago
      Indeed, for any given nomad, you'd have to ask them their goals to know which ones they had.
- coderdude 10y ago
  I am. I look them in the eyes and treat them like people. I know from the people I talk to that the worst part is having everyone ignore you and not treat you like a fellow human. It breaks my heart. It sucks out there. We might be off topic but I get you.
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  Yes I am. There is one gentleman who is around fairly regularly, he doesn't have a permanent home and he is fiercely proud of that. He has money to buy stuff if he wants. He likes to read and will often trade books with the used book store or ask for books from garage sales as he sees them. He was reading one Asimov's Foundation books when I met him sitting next to his stuff. We don't get as many outright beggars but occasionally we do. One person I talked with who was simply demanding cash I suggested we trade stories. I'd tell him a story and he could tell me a story. If we agreed he had the better story I would give him $6 (which is the price of a typical paperback book). I told him about the birth of my daughter and how it changed me in ways I didn't expect. He told me about of joining the Navy rather than being sent to jail for shoplifting, and learning the fastest way to clean a mess hall that had just fed 80 sailors who had been sea sick. I gave him the $6. But strangely he didn't really want it, he wanted to tell me more of his stories. But I was out of time so I said if I saw him around again I would ask for another story. Sadly I didn't see him later. He really was a pretty good story teller. The people who have been problems have either been high (drunk or drugs) or mentally damaged. No fault of their own but they simply weren't in a place to be human. My wife and I called 911 and helped one guy get to the hospital, he was passed out in the parking lot of Safeway. He didn't appreciate the help but I continue to feel it was the right call.
  - stephengillie 10y ago
    Thank you for the well-told stories. And for being a role model, these are heartening and inspiring. Wasn't meaning to call you out, but it felt awkward to transition out of 2nd person.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  I ignore him completely. I'm unimpressed with anyone who travels thousands of kilometres to sit in the street and beg.
asksol 10y ago
I was also brought up to greet people, but try to greet neighbors in London, UK and they will look at you like you fell from the sky. Most of them will not even give a response. Big cities are a lot like this now.
- afarrell 10y ago
  A big part of the problem is that when you just walk up to someone they don't really know what your intentions are. My wife is actually currently working on this problem though. She is an event planner and has started running meetups specifically for people who are looking to meet new people. It has worked pretty well in the US, but we're actually going to be moving to London (assuming my visa comes through...).
  - dvanduzer 10y ago
    The idea is to make yourself visible as someone who is friendly, so that people approach you. (Granted, this might not be something you want to start out with as a total newcomer to a neighborhood like London.)
  - asksol 10y ago
    People need more venues to meet new people, but by greeting I meant more like saying "evening!" when you pass your next door neighbor in the hallway. I don't think there's an expectation to chat in this case. If I wanted to chat I'd start with "excuse me," and probably walk up first as you say. A greeting can be made from across the street, and sometimes just lifting your hat in response is enough (I don't have one, but I have seen people do this).
    - afarrell 10y ago
      Yea, that is in fact one reason that I wear a hat.
- mrcsparker 10y ago
  Keep greeting them - they will come around. I am from the US South and not saying hello (or waving when they pass by) is considered bad manners. I have done this all my life and people have told me that they like it when someone says "good morning" with a smile. Maybe I am lucky or biased, but I don't care. I like it when people are nice and I treat people the way that I want to be treated. I sometimes have to spend a lot of time in New York and the people are the same. I just push through it. They won't change me because I like it when people are pleasant. Plus, the world is a nicer place when people are nice to you.
m0llusk 10y ago
This is terribly naive. I walk around my neighborhood saying hi to people and they call me names because I am a member of a number of disrespected minorities. Social cohesion is a much more complicated problem than walking around and talking to people.
- billmalarky 10y ago
  Yikes. I hope your situation is the exception not the rule.
- Cerium 10y ago
  It doesn't always work, but if you don't try it always doesn't work.
- hackaflocka 10y ago
  Here's an alternative: have a warm smile on your face, but don't make eye contact.
13of40 10y ago
I can't even imagine a block party in my neighborhood. We'd have the 24 year old tech multi-hundred-thousandaire from across the street mingling with the Mormons to the right and the shut-in imminent foreclosure retiree to the left bumping shoulders with the gangster guys on the corner and the kitty-corner mother-of-twelve trying to feed her kids up on hot dogs but keep them from listening to any of the conversation. Then some douchebag would blow down the street in his Mustang at 40 miles an hour, totally oblivious to the barbecues and plastic tables covered in red plastic cups...
- hackaflocka 10y ago
  LA? NYC? Miami?
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  Ouch! To be honest one of the things you have to do if you're going to shut down the street is get a permit from the city. You fill out all the parts about what your event is about, time, etc. And there is a box to check for whether or not you will require a police presence (extra cost of course). We have always joked that it would be a pretty raucous block party that needed police to keep order, but I imagine there are blocks where that could be the requirement.
- malyk 10y ago
  But that's the whole point. All those people have more in common than you realize and its knowing each other that makes people care about their neighborhoods/neighbors. Every year there is something called National Night Out which I had never heard about before moving to Oakland. But all across the city neighborhoods block off their streets and have a big cookout in the middle of the street. Because of that we've met all of our neighbors and, at the very least, can say hello and not be "that tech dude ruining the neighborhood" or "that Latino family whose kids are always hanging around outside", etc. Instead we have some shared experience that brings us closer together even if it just means we aren't shy about saying hello. You never know, maybe those gangbangers make a killer brisket!
abraham_s 10y ago
Strangers greeting me on the street was a culture shock when I moved from India to US (to Salt Lake City,UT). Often my brain won't process it in time to return the greeting before the person has passed me. Sometimes I will bungle the reply (saying "same to you" in reply to "Good Morning") or just smile in return or nod. If you have greeted someone on the street and hasn't gotten any response back, please don't take it to heart.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  For what it's worth, I think "same to you" is a perfectly fine reply to "good morning." So is a smile or nod.
  - adriand 10y ago
    Agreed, it's a totally normal response. But when you get into the habit of saying it, you also tend to use it when the boarding personnel say, "Have a nice flight!"
- jkaljundi 10y ago
  This is how and Estonian or a Finn would feel: http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/ http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/
  - jcrei 10y ago
    I tried for a few months when I first arrived in Estonia. I got mixed reactions and was about to give up, but then my neighbours were the ones greeting me. I have since made a point of greeting any neighbour I meet in my building.
  - Svip 10y ago
    How odd, as a Scandinavian (more precisely: Dane), I can relate to almost all of those. Maybe it's a Nordic thing and not just a Finnish thing? Bus stops need a lot of place here, because people don't want to stand close together, for instance.
raverbashing 10y ago
I wouldn't go greeting people randomly. But if it's somewhat related to your day by day, by all means do (neighbours, attendants in nearby shops, people you know, etc) One thing I've noticed about Canadians is that despite their supposedly friendliness they don't give a f. about you. Granted, different cultures and ways to express feelings (canadian.show_emotion returns NotImplementedException) but it seems their threshold of caring (even a bit) for someone is high
- ido 10y ago
  That's interesting. What led you to this observation? I've only visited for a few weeks but my impression of "random Canadians" is that they care a lot more than random Germans and Austrians (or at least seem to?).
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    Can't tell much about the Austrians, but Canadians definitely care less than the average German They may be friendly and talkative, yes, but it's mostly for politeness. You might see they quickly lose interest after a bit Now your average German will be a little bit interested in a legitimate conversation (of course if this goes nowhere that's fine as well)
    - uola 10y ago
      While I think Germans, and people of culturally similar countries (Austria, Switzerland) are usually quite nice I have a hard time saying they genuine care about other people. Since rationalizing others misfortunes (or most things really) seem to be deeply ingrained in society.
      - raverbashing 10y ago
        It might depend a lot on the region of Germany as well, for example Bayern is in some ways more "laid back" and traditional (Austria seems close culturally to Bavaria than other parts of Germany)
greggman 10y ago
I just wanted to say Thank You. It basically takes someone to step up and organize. If no one does it it doesn't happen. If someone takes the initiative and organizes a block party it's a huge step in getting people to know each other.
halov 10y ago
The Messenger of Allah said: "Gabriel continued to recommend me about treating the neighbors kindly and politely so much so that I thought he would order me to make them as my heirs." "Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity, commanding good and forbidding evil is charity, your giving directions to a man lost in the land is charity for you. Your seeing for a man with bad sight is a charity for you, your removal of a rock, a thorn or a bone from the road is charity for you. Your pouring what remains from your bucket into the bucket of your brother is charity for you."
ipsi 10y ago
I think the whole "Block Party" thing works better in smaller places. e.g. In NY, unless you had a BBQ on the roof, it probably wouldn't be possible (and where would you put everyone who turned up?). Similar in London - yes, I could have a block party, technically, but it's all terraced housing, so (a) there would be a lot of people - probably too many, and (b) given property prices, most are probably renters, meaning they probably don't feel a sense of permanence or belonging in quite the same way a homeowner would. Maybe that's a big part of it? Not just that you have so many neighbours it breaks Dunbar's Number, but that in cities with high property prices, odds are good most of your neighbours will be renting, and perhaps only for a limited time, whereas in smaller cities, you can buy a place, and it's quite possible that your neighbours are going to be your neighbours for 10, 20, 30+ years, versus maybe 1 - 2 years when talking about renting. It's a much bigger return on investment.

branchless 10y ago

I don't know Canada well enough yet, but I can tell you what life used to be like in the UK in my mum's time as a kid, around 55 years back in the North East of England. All families lived near each other and you lived near your school. You'd walk home past your nan's house and stop in there or at your uncles. Maybe when you got home your mum was out at the shops - ok go to your nan's a few yards away. Or just go to your neighbour, she knows you and should your mum be delayed long will feed you. Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance, they made the credit available which sets the price. Access to local housing was limited. You had to go and get the best paying job you could just to compete in the "market". This meant moving away. There were other reasons too like the destruction of local industry (forced out in part as land prices rose making them uncompetitive vs countries without efficient rent extraction). Plus brain drain into rentier activity in the capital. But for me land prices are at the heart of destroying communities. I don't see community returning until we expel the usurers from the temple. Why is living on a piece of land so damn expensive? We don't have time for each other any more as we work insane hours. Both husband and wife have to work, leaving no time for other work in the community like stopping in to see a neighbour. All these tasks that were unpaid are now "on the clock" and the banks get a cut via renting money via debt creation for land. My mum didn't have loads of libraries or "urban design" somehow coaxing people to interact. What that street did have is that they were not living in a time where ever single person was giving a big wedge of their wages to the banks thereby forcing them all to work all the time.

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losteric 10y ago
We live in a society heavily oriented around consumption and under increasing pressure from technology... the market mindset has consumed the world. It's debatable whether wandering shrinking families are a symptom or a cause.
- branchless 10y ago
  You can avoid consumption. You can't avoid the need to sleep relatively near to your work.

protomyth 10y ago

One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd) is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have started to fade. The amount of social welfare the churches supported has not been replaced.

xj9 10y ago
This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.
  - jmspring 10y ago
    Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.
    - wallflower 10y ago
      "When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
    - hueving 10y ago
      McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.

baron816 10y ago

HN is all about technology, but I think many people here don't realize that technology is about access. Aluminum is the third most common element on Earth, but up until fairly recently, it was prized above gold and other precious metals because it was seemingly so rare. People just didn't have the technology to access it in large quantities. And just as someone stranded at sea can die of thirst, so too is it paradoxical that one can find themselves brutally alone in a city with millions of other people. The problem is that they don't have access. My company, Krewe (https://www.gokrewe.com https://www.gokrewe.com) aims to be that technology that will give people access to each other and help them form meaningful connections. It places people who all live in the same neighborhood into small groups, and encourages them to meet often. The pernicious scourge of loneliness must end, and I hope I can provide a solution.

baybal 10y ago
ignore
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  unsubscribe
somethingz 10y ago
Fucking kill yourself.

deleted 10y ago

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ojbyrne 10y ago

I grew up in Canada and now in the US and after reading this, the first thing I thought of after reading this is - there are vastly fewer neighborhood bars in Canada. Strict drunk driving laws (obviously more important) and cold winters seemed to lead to the only viable bars being large clubs or in downtown cores where there's tourists.

alexland 10y ago
That's a very interesting thought. I've also noticed that in Metro Vancouver the majority of pubs are on busy streets or in dense city areas, rather than neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the people I know (mostly 20-somethings) tend to gravitate towards the city core for social outings, and so I end up very rarely trying the few neighborly pubs in the suburbs.

petecox 10y ago

Where do they all come from?

bbcbasic 10y ago
Beatles
- erac1e 10y ago
  dont be silly

unculate 10y ago

Sometimes, the most amazing thing about HN is the absolute quackery displayed in the form of downvotes.

kstenerud 10y ago

The more I read about this, the more weird I think I must be. I've always preferred being alone. My time in San Francisco was utter hell. I couldn't get a moment away from people and noise. Now I live in complete isolation. My nearest neighbor is two miles down a dirt road. I only go into town to stock up on foods, which I vacuum seal and stuff in the deep freeze (enough to last me 3 months at a time). I've never been happier than I am now.

ktRolster 10y ago
I'd bet it helps that you can talk to people whenever you want on this website (and others). Human interaction.
- kstenerud 10y ago
  I suppose so. This is the only site I participate in, but I usually end up posting a comment every week or two.
sseagull 10y ago
I get that feeling as well, sometimes. Even though I don't want quite your level of isolation, I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else in person for days (except my wife). I sometimes think of it as the 'tyranny of the extroverts'. Since they are, well, extroverted, they are the ones controlling the narrative of what's 'normal', while the introverts are too introverted to really speak up. Extroverts are the ones saying cities are better than rural areas since there's more to do, etc (see other HN threads). I'm with you, though. I will take a quiet, rural or semi-rural area over a city any day.
- hueving 10y ago
  I'm introverted and I still prefer more population because it offers a lot more diversity in restaurants and grocery stores (I like to eat all kinds of stuff). I also enjoy the bustle of people even though I don't prefer to talk to any random individual.
- 10y ago

known 10y ago

Due to lack of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility and not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

phantom_oracle 10y ago

and unlike solving the problem of horizontal scaling, a mathematical equation or something with a clear solution, there is no clear, Silicon Valley style cure to this problem. You can't exactly Facebookify people who are lonely. Also, AFAIR(r=recall), Japan has a similar issue of loneliness. Makes you wonder though. Even if you cure the economic (poverty) and health issues (living into your old age), something else will probably get you (depression, loneliness, boredom, etc.)

losteric 10y ago
I can't help but remember Calhoun's utopia experiment: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1...
- tomcam 10y ago
  Counterintuitive, amazing, horrifying. Everyone should read about this experiment. I would love to know if it has been re-created.
  - ddt_Osprey 10y ago
    If you like that, you'll love this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair
    - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      Where we learn more about the experimenter than the subject.

sidcool 10y ago

Loneliness is a curse of some cultures.

some_hero-_- 10y ago

I was a semi introvert and extrovert guy but after working for one startup for more than 3 years in isolated environment makes me feel like i am fully introvert. There is no one with whom i can express my feelings openly. I don't have friends to hangout, and the most depressing thing is the people of my age have all this thing. What's more awkward is I can't even able to approach people, seems like i forgotten how to interact. The other reason might be, i was afraid to not look like looser. Most of the people consider me quite successful and showing such weakness in front of society is not acceptable. I have lot of ideas in my mind but i don't have energy to execute. My bank balance is good but it doesn't bring happiness. I don't have time on my hand. Sometimes i feel like i do sucide but i am strong men. I don't recommend anyone to start a startup unless he socially fit and not under his early 20s.

combatentropy 10y ago
I'm sorry you're in this situation
hackuser 10y ago
Isolation is so painful; it's literally traumatic for people. You are not at all the only one; in fact, what you are experiencing is a perfectly normal reaction. Humans are fundamentally social beings; without other people to socialize with, our cognitive and emotional systems don't function properly. For example, for children, I believe it's well established that even abuse by parents is better for them than abandonment. A much more extreme example is people in solitary confinement, who experience serious mental and emotional problems due to their almost complete lack of human contact (beyond anything even isolated people experience out in society). Your social skills and energy will return naturally when you feel better. Consider finding a good therapist who you feel comfortable with. Not only will you have someone to talk to, but they can help you understand and manage your problems and help you develop the skills to do the things you want to do. I would love to read on HN someday that it worked out well for you. Take care.
fratlas 10y ago
I can empathise with this - I was edging on being an extravert until I took about a year of remote work. I think social skills come from practice and exposure, so when you stop interacting with people for great lengths of time, your skills weaken and you want isolation out of fear of showing your ineptitude. It's a vicious cycle; the only solution I have found is putting yourself in a social environment by force (i.e. workplaces, clubs etc).

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baybal 10y ago

I got -10 for that comment above, can somebody give me some karma?

ashitlerferad 10y ago

People are assholes :(

RIMR 10y ago
I live in a city, and I hear people screaming incoherently outside my window on a nightly basis. This is because my neighborhood has a sizable homeless population. Am I an asshole for not making nightly 911 calls to report this?
- RickS 10y ago
  I am currently in this situation. It's case by case. Guy screaming "help, I'm dying!" I called 911. Two bums fighting over a bike? It will be over before the cruiser arrives.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  One of the reasons I left the city and will never return; it drove me crazy. When I hear someone scream where I live now I know it is serious, I know who it is and I know that at least 5 other people already called the police (or ambulance/fire dep). It also rarely happens.
- erac1e 10y ago
  how do you get any sleep? ocean machine?

roansh 10y ago

As far as I understand - according to the article, loneliness in itself is not a bad thing for the health but what it brings with itself - the possibility of depression, possible risk of suicide, inactivity hence possibility of obesity and diabetes. I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it!

mercer 10y ago
I think loneliness by definition includes the negative effects. What you're talking about is 'solitude'. >I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it! I'm one of those people who loves being alone, and I often ask myself the same question. From my experience so far, the risks you mention are lower overall, but they're still there. I t is often interaction with others that prompts me to be more physically active, eat healthier, etc, in the same way I suppose that it's generally easier to commit to doing or not doing something if you're responsible to someone else. I find that as much as I love being alone, my thinking and behavior slowly 'deteriorates' and sometimes it can actively make me unhappy. I do think this can be alleviated to a large degree by being disciplined, but then that in itself is often easier with others 'watching you'. It's fascinating and I'm now wondering how much research has been done into solitude, rather than loneliness specifically...
- kome 10y ago
  What if "solitude" is just a social and personal acceptable way to talk about "loneliness"? I was thinking about those people who call themselves "expats" and not "immigrants". In other way: the rich is "solo", the poor is "lonely".
  - sseagull 10y ago
    I'd say it's a difference in desire, although I'm sure there's some amount of denial out there ("I'm not lonely, I'm just solitary") If you want human interaction but don't get it, that's loneliness. If you truly don't want it to begin with, that's solitude. If you don't want human interaction but get it anyway, that's hell (to an introvert, anyway).

aaron695 10y ago

> When she couldn’t find her way back home, confused and scared, she screamed for help. She banged on people’s doors and tried to claw her way into vehicles, setting off car alarms. > Neither offered to help, nor called 911 — they pulled the curtains shut and went back to bed. This is a insult to my intelligence. This sort of emotive bullshit is both a lie (This is not what happened) and totally unconstructive. There is a serious topic around this issue of care for people above food and shelter, it's just a shame this article is so piss poorly written.

RIMR 10y ago
That was my thought too. It seems that the author was trying to tell the story in such a way as to pull on the most heartstrings. I live in a city, and if I hear incoherent screaming outside of my apartment, I ignore it. I figure calling 911 every night would eventually get me in trouble, so I just accept that loud, mentally ill homeless frequent my neighborhood at night.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  Then you've decided that you value your convenience over strangers' lives. As I said above, look into the Kitty Genovese murder, for example. That's your decision to make, but don't try to dress it up as something else.
sverige 10y ago
So you doubt that the reporting is accurate? I don't. It's very believable to me that people would ignore some disturbance outside in a suburban neighborhood. Granted, this is an anecdote that illustrates one of the stranger aspects of isolation, and probably wouldn't happen everywhere, but I think that's the point: in some places, absolutely no one will help you. So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.
- aaron695 10y ago
  > So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive. Sorry, it is of course a lie. You shouldn't need evidence. If you think this sort of thing happens you are a very very broken human being. 'You' are the actual problem, because the people in these stories are not real. But people who believe these stories are. I shouldn't need to link evidence but I will in the hope that perhaps the truly awful humans who think people will knowingly leave a screaming a grandmother to die in the cold might change the awful way they think. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-desperate-attempt-to-stay-alive-in-freezing-temperatures/article562552/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-d...

dominostars 10y ago

Having community, closeness, and realness is so important for our growth but so lacking in our environments. The only way most people know to find community is through partnership (which has its obvious flaws e.g. divorce rates), or in the work place, which is often lacking in meaningful connection. Family structures are weak, and the communities formerly facilitated by religions are not being supplemented in our new, growingly secular world. The internet can provide some amount of valuable community and support, but it's limited. Words in text can only convey so much. You can't be held. You can't shout and scream and be irrational. It's easier to hide than confront difficult emotions. Therapy is so valuable, and its stigmatization hurts us all, but it's also limited. It's just one person, with one set of beliefs. They aren't there with you in the heat of a difficult situation. And honestly, there's something so gross about having to pay hundreds of dollars just to find someone to be real with.

advertising 10y ago

In the states I found people will look you in the eye when oassing by and some will say hello. Most will respond back if you say hello or how are you. When I'm in Mexico it's almost rude not greet someone with a customary "buenas dias/tardes/noches" In Japan rarely people will look you in the eye period.

theaeolist 10y ago
On the other hand, try asking for help on the street in Japan. The level of helpfulness of random people is amazingly high.
- advertising 10y ago
  Most definitely. Most countries I've found that's true. Save for the last time I was in Paris haha.

sbardle 10y ago

I've been involved in a number of "community building" initiatives. What I've learned is that it is easy to start the community, but soon enough people start getting political and the infighting begins - it often only takes one or two people to ruin it for everybody else.

sgt101 10y ago

I wonder if the story about H1B visas and older americans being sacked provides a hint of a back story here. It seems to me that social solidarity impedes immediate profits; things like healthcare and pensions are very awkward for folks who want to smash open the value locked up in corporations for redeployment into yachts and sports cars. The consequences have been out of the public eye till now, but as the boomer bulge starts being the focus of this, and as boomers discover that they are working till they are 80 and retiring poor maybe things will change. How to change things - well that's going to be one of the challenges of the future.

markdown 10y ago

OT: No part of this article is visible above the fold. http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg

jokoon 10y ago

I'm so angry about that issue. Long post ahead. I remember an experience of mine. At 19, I wanted to flee my dad's home, which was in Paris's center-near suburb, because my mother in law was emotionally harassing me, she was very intolerant towards my presence at home and it was generating a great deal of anxiety in me. Before taking off, I called my dad, and he convinced me to rent AND PAY for a small apartment 20min from home. I went to school, still the same isolated and nerdy teen. The 3rd year, as I was failing to get a degree and diving into depression, I did not look for a school program (getting registered in higher education in france is very weird), so I stayed at this small apartment, ALL EXPENSES PAID! I just let myself be abandoned. I stayed on my computer all day long, going to bed 2h later than the day before, so at some points I was getting in bed at 9am, and waking up at 17pm. Only my grand parents came in to help me do some shopping (I never had a driving license). During that 3rd year, the 2007 crash came in, my father sent me to my mother (who has been chronically unemployed in a small remote town) because he could not pay that rent anymore. My mother really helped me because I had social contact with her and my sister, and it helped me a lot. I found a girlfriend, but we're fighting, and for the life of me I just can't contemplate the thought of being alone again, it terrifies me. So essentially I'm in that "friend zone", but I don't complain and we are still good friends. My thought on loneliness ? I think modern society, with individualism, has compartmentalized personal space to such a degree that people don't have ANY opportunity to talk to people. We all have our own personal: * washing machine * fridge * oven * kitchen * toilet * bathroom * tableware * terrace Individualism means that compartmentalization of ownership allows for better management of resources. The REALITY, is that we don't share ANYTHING. We actually live in our own prison cell. This is fine if you have a job that implies social interaction, but for those who don't have a job, or have a job that doesn't involve social interaction, you will lose your social skills pretty quickly. And that's not a myth, that's what psychiatry says. My cynicism tells me that despite the fact that modern democracies have a higher standard of living for all sorts of reasons, I can really envision a disintegration of that modern society if nothing gets done. I can really envision why much poorer countries can thrive and surpass wealthier countries for that reason only: because ultimately, if social atrophy increases, it doesn't predict good things...

jokoon 10y ago
I'm reading that comment again, and by rent and pay I meant that he paid for it. (english is not my main language, sorry). I was actually not independent financially. I would have preferred being in a foster home or anything else than being spoon-fed by my family.

tluyben2 10y ago

When I lived in different cities people would find it extremely weird when I talked to them or said hi on the street; guys would think I wanted something from them and girls would think I wanted them. With many people around me constantly, it was a very lonely experience; hard to get to know people (I have a weird/rare first name and one of the bar guys of our local (popular) cafe we went to every friday had the same first name; after 2 years he didn't know what I always ordered or who I was) at all, let alone make friends. I started to believe the statement which people always put forward; you don't make new good friends after 30. I had colleagues at the office including my some of my long term high school / uni friends but there was no point of living in an (expensive) city for that. We packed up and left (it was a decision on a drunk night when, once more, we found ourselves sitting in a Kirchner painting of a place where no-one looks at or interacts with each other) for a tiny place deep in the mountains of another country (we moved from the Netherlands to Spain). Everyone talks to everyone here, a few years in we not only made new friends but even people we would call new best friends. Our closest neighbour is 5 minutes walk and the closest bar 10 minutes, so if we don't want to see anyone, we can and if we want a party with a mix of friends and strangers: at least 2 times a week, but in the summer 4 times a week, we can. Because this is a place tourists usually avoid (it is high up in the mountains and most people really don't like that; they want beach and some blue drink with a parasol), the people that do want to live here (and weren't born here) have the same kind of attitude. Great place to work with a laptop in the sun.

therealdrag0 10y ago
That sounds nice. What town/mountains?

firebender6 10y ago

Where I currently live in (Bangalore, India), the community includes a large no of young people who've migrated from rural to urban places due to work or for studies. A lot of us are also first time graduates with financial dependents. In tech industry (where I work), the current work culture has made sustaining a friends circle (support system) outside of work really hard; even more so when they live in different cities. I personally see co-workers & friends who struggle to cope with stress at work, staying away from home/family/trying to sustain a relationship. The sad part is that it rarely gets spoken about. In our case time not invested in relationships during 20's (when one is also building his/her career) is a major reason for loneliness as people get older. Nothing that we have done so far has equipped us to handle it. An over-competitive job market only makes things worse. Prioritizing family/friends often gets interpreted as not being motivated/hardworking enough and has huge penalties (direct and indirect) associated with it. I really hope corporates begin to see the importance of healthy & happy workers not just on book, but in practice as well.

morgante 10y ago

I'm not sure that the root causes are accurate in this article. I think loneliness transcends poverty and in many cases can be aggravated by wealth: many of the poorer people I know have to depend on social connections for things which I can buy. Also, this comment seems really off: > The homeless are, almost by definition, alone. In my understanding, many homeless people frequently communicate with each other.

emmelaich 10y ago

Definitely Nordic. I think I'm Nordic though I was born and live in Australia :-) http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-different http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-differen... (oops - finger spasm made me move this from a reply to top level and lose me 3 karma points!)

tacostakohashi 10y ago

I've been thinking about this a little over the past few weeks, and one thing that seems to be missing these days is communities where there is even the slightest barrier to entry. In the old days (even 20-30 years ago), geography served that purpose, and after that, what seems to have been a golden age where vaguely like-minded people could congregate and get to know each other on amateur radio, CB radio, BBSs, usenet, IRC, etc. It seems like these days, all we have are massive communities like facebook, meetup, etc, and although there are interest-specific groups, there just isn't any friction to keep the idiots out, and you're not much more likely to meet interesting people there than you are on the street or in a subway car. I'd be interested to hear of anybody's experience with any modern communities that have even just a tiny barrier to entry, which serves the purpose of making them even just a little bit more efficient at allowing people to find each other and network.

tpallarino 10y ago

As one of my favorite musical groups so aptly put it "The Lonely People Are Getting Lonelier"

brighta 10y ago

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brighta 10y ago

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