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China Fakes 488M Social Media Posts a Year: Study
- xufi 10y agoHow many have been in Weibo hmmm
- Aelinsaar 10y agoI wonder if it's actually effective, or just makes the people calling for it to be done, feel better.
- exolymph 10y agoAll of the above? Totalitarian regimes always try to control the public narrative. It matters.
- Aelinsaar 10y agoYes, but totalitarian regimes also tend to torture people, and that doesn't work in the long run. Being totalitarian doesn't make you competent, but it probably makes you less likely to carefully study your methods for efficacy. So I wonder, is there any evidence that this works, or is it just a sop to angry old men in the politburo who don't like what they see online?
- bduerst 10y agoThis is anecdotal, but from the time I spent working in Shanghai & Beijing with the current younger middle class, they're pretty aware of this and just don't really care that much. In the U.S. we're very vigilant about our first amendment rights and feel violated if they're even slightly tampered with, but for some of the Chinese at least, they don't see it interfering with their lives as long as "things are going okay" for them.
- yorwba 10y agoAs a counterpoint, my Chinese teacher said the other day that she is worried about the days of the Cultural Revolution returning. She sees her relatives sharing propaganda pieces on WeChat and showed us a video of her aunt unironically performing the "Loyalty Dance" (as in loyalty to Mao) with her coworkers. They will also get angry at her when she tries to talk about China's worse points. This might be an age thing though, maybe the younger generations have a different outlook on these things.
- malaeisd 10y agoThat was my experience too. We have to understand that the younger middle class is only a generation removed from the Cultural Revolution. So they hear stories from their grandparents and parents about people starving to death because of the famines. These things will take time. As the Chinese get more comfortable, those younger people will join the system and change it form within. Remember that South Korea, Singapore, and even Taiwan were dictatorships that improved their quality of life significantly before they became democracies.
- studentrob 10y agoSingapore does not choose its Presidential candidates [1] In Taiwan and South Korea, anyone with enough popular support can get on the ballot. From the Singapore wiki, "Potential candidates must obtain certificates of eligibility from the Presidential Elections Committee (PEC), the function of which is to ensure that such persons have the necessary qualifications to be nominated as a candidate for the election" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Singapore#Election_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Singapore#Electio...
- Kristine1975 10y agoAll regimes try to control the public narrative.
- mc32 10y agoYes but the difference is in totalitarian regimes, theirs is the only narrative. No one or nothing else's story is permitted, while theirs is made to flourish. On the positive side, when you have an undivided narrative like that you can get a lot done (sometimes bad, sometimes good) without impeding distractions.
- meric 10y agoIn non-totalitarian regimes, you only get your career threatened[1], in totalitarian regimes, you could be imprisoned. [1] http://gawker.com/this-is-how-hillary-clinton-gets-the-coverage-she-wants-1758019058 http://gawker.com/this-is-how-hillary-clinton-gets-the-cover...
- bjshepard 10y agoYou can get books in the Shanghai library with a lot of narratives of world history different than the CCP's. Totalitarian is probably not the most fitting word to describe the current state of Chinese society, insofar as it connotates an environment of constant fear of unwarranted state intrustion into everyday life. The only environment I've been in that could be said to be "totalitarian" in that sense would be the south side of Chicago.
- nametakenobv 10y ago>You can get books in the Shanghai library with a lot of narratives of world history different than the CCP's. Yeah, get too many of those and see what happens.
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoDPRK and Eritrea are pretty darn close to totalitarian. Even at its worst in the 60s/70s, China was just barely there, it is just too big to control likes that. It is difficulty it to describe China's political system using existing terms. Maybe authoritarian, but that doesn't feel right either. It isn't transparent in how the power flows, could even be an oligarchy or aristocracy.
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- xufi 10y agoWith China you're never sure. Look at what happened with the OPM hack they did on the US government database of federal workers
- Kristine1975 10y agoJust because the hack originated in China doesn't mean the Chinese government was behind it.
- xufi 10y agoI wasn't referring to the Chinese govt per se. But just the many entities of cyber criminals that these hackers originate from also
- sievebrain 10y agoAre you trying to imply that for profit commercial hackers would care about draining the OPM? There's really only one type of organisation that could use that data: a government.
- xufi 10y agoPretty much my point.
- eva1984 10y agoNot too much. But fear do the rest of the work.
- Aelinsaar 10y agoFear is very powerful, until you scare people too much, then you find out the other side of the power of fear.
- stephengillie 10y ago> Although those who post comments are often rumored to be ordinary citizens, the researchers were surprised to find that nearly all the posts were written by workers at government agencies including tax and human resource departments, and at courts. The researchers said they found no evidence that people were paid for the posts, adding the work was probably part of the employees’ job responsibilities.
- mc32 10y agoNo I think this is more like someone working for some new startup talking it up, or talking up the product. It may not be in the job description, but one might be inclined to say good things. Do recall these jobs are ones one gets by studying hard for a rote test/civil service exam. So one might feel obliged when working for the state (where it's prestigious to work, as seen by fam) to defend the state.
- tiatia 10y agoWait. Trump will soon pull the plug on China. Let's see how they can survive this. (gives them three years to balance trade with the US)
- Intermernet 10y agoThe first, and probably only important result of this will be a massive increase in the cost of most products in the USA. Let's see how they can survive this...
- tiatia 10y agoHm. Maybe. But 1. Lets see how much robots can replace of the labour 2. China one accumulated most of the world silver reserves. Buying nothing and selling silk and porcelain. This was one of the reasons for the Opium war. Today China produces nothing that not somebody else could produce. Shoes, Clothes, toys, electronics. They tried to get a monopoly with rare earth metals but this seem to have failed. I challenge your statement. I doubt the outcome.
- est 10y agoSpamming 400M posts is just casual business for any for-profit astroturfing companies. I am not surprised if you can find another 800M posts is for soft advertising.
- aavotins 10y agoTurns out it's a Brave New World instead of 1984. And I am not surprised. A semi-totalitarian government based around ideology. If China's idealistic goal is set to be achieving communism through socialism, then what's better than vox populi?
- pmlnr 10y agohttp://highexistence.com/amusing-ourselves-to-death-huxley-vs-orwell/ http://highexistence.com/amusing-ourselves-to-death-huxley-v... (source: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/blog/cartoon-blog/amusing-ourselves-to-death/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/blog/cartoon-blog/amusing-ours... )
- Maken 10y agoWhat I always wonder about Brave New World is if Huxley was right when he portrayed the people in charge of the BNW's system as being convinced they were doing the right thing, as opposite to the 1984's "evil" party.
- Angostura 10y agoOh, I think a little bit of both, don't you?
- messel 10y agoSoma carried the brunt of that load, not unlike modern pain killers
- realusername 10y agoI'm not even sure if they still have any communist goal, it looks just like any other authoritarian government now, it's probably only communist by name.
- sievebrain 10y agoIt's a totalitarian government with massive state ownership of businesses. That's pretty much the definition of communism. The fact that they got less extreme on their economic policies whilst remaining extreme on their social/control policies doesn't make it not communism.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- doppp 10y agoCool study. Now, conduct the same study in America before we begin the circlejerk of criticizing the "Totalitarian Chinese regime."
- bjshepard 10y agohonest question that seems more pointed than it is: how many anti-CCP/China posts did the CIA sponsor last year?
- CountSessine 10y agoNone?
- bjshepard 10y agoThe history of the American Intelligence State from the cold war onward suggests that "none" is an unlikely possibility.
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoIf you mean the Chinese Intelligence Agency, they aren't anti-CCP. If you mean the Central Intelligence Agency, then we have no evidence that they are, and it is highly likely that they wouldn't bother. What is in it for the USA to destabilize China and/or overthrow the CPP? A failed state with 1.3 billion people would be a huge headache.
- bjshepard 10y agoStrategic anticipation of long-term conflict over control of the pacific -- presumably they wouldn't want a failed state, they would want a parliamentary democracy ruled by a "liberal" party subservient to American hegemony.
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoThe narrative that America wants to democratize the world only really exists in places like Russia, Middle East, some of leftist Europe. But really, if you think about it just a little bit, there is nothing in it for us. A democratic China would be even more difficult for the US to deal with, given that the politicians would be subject to populist whims. It might be good for China as it creates some additional pressure valves, but we don't care about that, we are pretty happy to let China plod along wherever its going (just please stop pushing up housing prices on the west coast). There aren't any huge ideological battles going on these days, the cold war is over, and the big baddies for us to face are failed states and terrorism, both of which would thrive in a more unstable China. Heck, our worst nightmare is Russia imploding. I bet they lift up on sanctions soon just because of that.
- dogma1138 10y agoWhile it might sounds bad and it sure is, how is it that different than the 100's of millions of "sponsored content" add's, "news articles" and blog spam that 1000's of companies spread through the internet each year?
- mattmanser 10y agoYes, an authoritarian state that murders and disappears people and then undermines resistance by subtly adjusting the dialogue of its citizens is just like a marketing agency. Exactly the same, now I consider it more. Forgive the hyperbole, but I think it does the suffering caused by their regime a great disservice to compare it to sponsored ads.
- dogma1138 10y agoBecause the same marketing agencies also publish content for politicians and political parties, lobbyists and interest groups? It's not like it's only used to sell you car insurance and diet pills.
- spacecowboy_lon 10y agoYes but we don't kill anyone :-)
- moreorless 10y agoAre you sure about that? It is just marketed a little differently.
- sspiff 10y agoAnd US political factions don't use advertising to manipulate public opinion and don't own controlling stakes in huge media conglomerates. And the US government would certainly never cause suffering, at home or abroad!
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- greenspot 10y agoBad reviews on Amazon lead to faked good ones. Bad reviews on Glassdoor lead to faked good ones. Bad reviews on Yelp lead to faked good ones. Sometimes bad reviews are not fair or heavily exaggerated, sometimes bad reviews are from competitors. Bad reviews cannot be removed. Sometimes, faked good reviews is the only way to bring back a balanced view. So, this seems to happen everywhere and to be the natural response of a self-regulating market. Means that we should be careful with user generated content in general, also users might have an hidden agenda. Edit: Why the downvote? I am not saying that I like this, I just tried to find an explanation for a market behavior.
- pmlnr 10y agoAnother study also states that Chinese people don't trust what they read; they trust their friends', relatives', etc. opinion. This is why you don't see wandering Asian tourists - they tend to visit what they know it's going to worth is, based on, well, gossip. And sadly, I'm leaning towards this myself, finding the amazon 5* reviews more and more useless - although the same goes for most 1* reviews as well, those are mostly angry costumers with a bad luck.
- greenspot 10y agoAgree. One thing Amazon improved on: the rating is now based on the reviews only from verified buys. Latter ones are a bit harder to fake since you need to buy the product before your review. Not the perfect solution but already miles better than most other review systems.
- kbart 10y agoI've noticed that Amazon ratings/reviews are totally useless: I've seen fake items with staggering reviews and really good ones with 2-3 star rating. I tend to google reviews on other sites/blogs before buying from Amazon.
- dspillett 10y agoI find 3* and 4* reviews most useful generally, especially when comparing two products, if the review describes the pros/cons that go into their rating. These reviews tend to come after a little consideration instead of being a gushing "honeymoon period" reaction or a "maybe if I trash them they'll give me a full refund to try get me to take the review down" thing.
- jboynyc 10y agoPolitical scientist Danie Stockmann, who studies the role of media in authoritarian regimes, has this to say about the Chinese situation: > New and market-based media require a certain degree of liberalization, because market-based media need to cater towards audiences in order to make a profit and new communication technologies are faster than propaganda officials in spreading information. But this expanded social space places pressure on the authoritarian state. As a result, China is also constantly building up its capacity to control media, mostly through institutional infrastructures, in order to maintain a roughly uniform flow of political information. Therefore, China responds to the challenges posed by market-based and new media by both opening up social spaces in media while maintaining control through institutional mechanisms. More: http://www.politicalcommunication.org/newsletter_25_1_stockmann.html http://www.politicalcommunication.org/newsletter_25_1_stockm...
- known 10y ago"Media does not spread free opinion; it generates opinion." --Oswald Spengler, 1918 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West#Democracy.2C_media.2C_and_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West#Democr...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- js8 10y agoHow silly I was, thinking that there will be no jobs in the future due to automation. :-)
- jensen123 10y agoInteresting. This makes me wonder about how many blog/forum posts in the Western world that are written by PR agencies. Not working for governments, of course, but for corporations and NGOs.
- Kristine1975 10y ago>Not working for governments, of course, Why not for governments?
- jensen123 10y agoIn the Western world, there seem to be this prevalent ideal that the people should control the government and not the other way around. If a Western government hired people to influence politics like this, wouldn't there be a backlash?
- Kristine1975 10y agoWhere's the backlash against this: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara
- sievebrain 10y agoThere was a huge backlash caused by the Snowden revelations and JTRIG certainly got massive attention at the time. Unfortunately there's no obvious way to stop it because politicians appear to believe spy agencies should be unaccountable and above the law.
- jensen123 10y ago> Where's the backlash against this: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ So, some people at the GCHQ have discussed doing these things. However, is there any evidence that they've actually done a whole lot? > Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara I don't really consider Isreal a Western country, but in any case, that is interesting.
- Polarity 10y agoSo it´s like content ads in the western world? buy this, buy that? nice.
- otaviokz 10y agoAbout time they learned from Western governments.
- optforfon 10y agoJust to give you a bit of local perspective: talking to the locals here in China (and actually a Chinese Malaysian guy I met too .. so it's not just confined to the people agrarian paradise), they ofcourse know that this is happening, but they don't envy our free for all either. The article says "a massive effort to distract its citizens from bad news and sensitive political debates" but of course that's just one angle. The local perspective is seeing it mostly as an effort by the government to try to moderate sensationalism, things getting spun out of proportion and down right fabrications (ie. US-TV news, Buzzfeed et al) They see our CNN having some 24hr coverage of a kitten stuck in a tree - which they will not stop till either half the nation is foaming at the mouth with rage at the government's incompetence or it just becomes too absurd to keep up - and they are understandably horrified
- nxzero 10y ago"My neighbor likes to yell, so I yell louder so I don't have to hear what they're saying. One day, there was a fire in my house, they were yelling for me to get out, but... I just yelled back and almost died." Answer is not to fight noise with noise, or to hide from reality because it's not Disney Land. There is no easy answer, but propaganda is the wrong answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
- okc 10y agoThe question is how much are the local views influenced by the government and also how much people are willing to disagree with the government view. The local perspective you present, is a good example of a perspective which sounds like it endorses government activity but also identifies it as a case of government suppression. It says noting as a personal opinion. I'm not sure that Chinese people are "understandably" horrified at CNN. I actually think theres a big cultural gap in understanding between both countries, perpetuated part by both governments. Either way, its government propaganda of news set against a backdrop of fear and conformity. That means that the very idea of presenting a 'local perspective' is one intimately linked to government control. Its nothing to do with kittens on CNN. You don't outright say it, but the way you wrote this seems to be saying that government controlled news ain't that bad compared with CNNs 24hr coverage of kittens. What do you think, personally?
- prestonpesek 10y agoWhy don't we study our own social media habits with as much scrutiny? I mean, if our version of the Chinese state is free market capitalism, how much of our own social media ecosystem is clogged with "fake" posts, otherwise known as content marketing? I bet we produce way more than 488M of that kind of crap each year.
- okc 10y agoI think the key difference is the government not cooperations are behind it. I think if the American government were mass employing graduates to make fake posts, then it would be scrutinised massively. (graduates, because social control is an academic discipline) Comparatively, between the two nations, I don't think the role of the Chinese state in controlling the thoughts of its citizens can be easily compared with American free market capitalism. In reality, China also has similar model of capitalism which operates in a similar way. The government creating fake posts, the Chinese fire wall.. Tiananmen Square.. people with anti-goverment views at local level - regularly going missing.. official and unofficial snithches on nearly every street.. I could go on. The unique role of the Chinese government (unlike America) make their social media habits interesting. Now of course American social media habits are interesting, but not for the same reasons, and I would argue: American social media habits aren't as important in areas like human rights. To put it in another context: if I was making this post from china or was Chinese - I would be looking over my shoulder and perhaps writing more ambiguously.
- lumberjack 10y agohttp://www.computerworld.com/article/2470594/endpoint-security/army-of-fake-social-media-friends-to-promote-propaganda.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2470594/endpoint-securi... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-op... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/feb/23/need-to-protect-internet-from-astroturfing http://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/fe... This is old news. It was first revealed in 2004.
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- DominikR 10y ago> The researchers said they found no evidence that people were paid for the posts, adding the work was probably part of the employees’ job responsibilities. Probably? How on earth do they reach this conclusion? Is this science? > Although those who post comments are often rumored to be ordinary citizens, the researchers were surprised to find that nearly all the posts were written by workers at government agencies including tax and human resource departments, and at courts. I'm surprised that the article paints a picture of factories where masses of chinese slave workers are producing cheap comments. It's also very unlikely that they will have these kinds of sweatshops located at tax departments and courts. Another simple explanation: As of 2009, 10 million people were civil servants within the Chinese government, and maybe, just maybe they are also sometimes bored at work and post cat pictures on the internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_of_the_People%27...
- zarlink 10y agoWell too bad nobody in China will ever get to read this post.
- unlinker 10y agoCommon wisdom says whoever is interested in reading this kind of stuff, will end up reading it.
- loceng 10y agoThis isn't any different than Facebook (or government programs) "curating"/filtering news/media.
- puppetmaster3 10y agoDo we have any data for USA, something I care more about? ex: http://tinyurl.com/hbsanfr http://tinyurl.com/hbsanfr
- Kristine1975 10y agoThe US government doesn't need to do this. It has press conferences and gullible journalists: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/20/pentagon-official-once-told-morley-safer-that-reporters-who-believe-the-government-are-stupid/ https://theintercept.com/2016/05/20/pentagon-official-once-t...
- MaxfordAndSons 10y agoI wonder how many of those are in this thread. There are quite a few posts in here written in good but not quite natural english, espousing various degrees of conciliatory attitudes towards the propaganda state.
- Semiapies 10y agoThey may or may not be in this thread, but pg mentioned years back that there are often a lot of suspect new accounts pushing official lines on stories involving China.
- transfire 10y agoLook over there at China! Nothing to see here, right?
- mlvljr 10y agoWhat about all the Flash games out there?
- ccvannorman 10y agoInteresting - how many social media posts a year are faked by US?
- adventured 10y agoThis entire thread seems to be overflowing with pro-authoritarian, emotionally reactive posts that are attempting to defend via diversion the actions in question. I count a couple dozen variations of intentionally trying to divert away from the actual topic. I'm surprised this thread isn't killed yet given the quality of the postings occurring here.
- mathattack 10y ago488M? Is that all?
- orangeclk 10y agoAs I know, Japan government also pays for posts in China. Maybe US does so.