15 ms·

How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sex

by kefka 10y ago

How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sexual labor. What makes sexual labor so horrid? As long as we do safe procedures (condoms, dental dams, etc.), there shouldn't be any problems with labor of a sexual nature. It's always better if you like your job. A lot of us do programming, or designing systems, or administration. We enjoy it. There's also people who like sex. I know a few, and they have made more in the sex industry. The only real problems are disease and abuse. Disease is obvious, but "owners" like pimps and such are big problems. We don't accept this in standard employment. And yes, sex for money for both genders is pretty awesome. It bypasses the whole mating ritual, and makes very clear expectations up front. And once done, the transaction is completed. Regular relationships can, and will get messy. I can certainly understand why some would not want to venture down that avenue in their point of life.

ProAm 10y ago
It's really hard to make babies at the construction site, even on accident.
- kefka 10y ago
  Sex work has nothing to do with children. At all. Birth control, IUDs, condoms, and abortions are all used to prevent births. Now, if you're talking about paid surrogacy, that's a whole different area, and a whole different set of laws.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    > Birth control, IUDs, condoms, and abortions are all used to prevent births. Sure used, but easily avoided, and it would be a social and political nightmare to deal with this as a society.
- tomp 10y ago
  It's easy to die, though.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    Sure but insurance companies have already determined and society has accepted the value of human life. If I recall it averages out to 1.3 million (looking for evidence now) EPA has it listed at 7.4 mil [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#Life_Value_in_the_US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#Life_Value_in_th... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-epa-has-tabulated-the-value-of-a-human-life-2012-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-epa-has-tabulated-the-val... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/weekinreview/09marsh.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/weekinreview/09marsh.html
    - tomp 10y ago
      > Sure but insurance companies have already determined and society has accepted the value of human life. Same for abortion.
      - ProAm 10y ago
        This is not true evidenced by the fact it is a political talking point every election cycle.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  The downvotes on this are baffling. Is it so hard to believe that poorly educated addicts are selling sex on the side and getting pregnant? Just googling a little: http://gradworks.umi.com/34/32/3432633.html http://gradworks.umi.com/34/32/3432633.html ''' The vast majority, 19 of the 20 participants, had been pregnant as a result of intimate partner, rape, and prostitution encounters. The risk of pregnancy was not a concern for most participants. Participants rarely used consistent contraception with either intimate partners or prostitution clients. Most pregnancies were unintended, irrespective of prostitution involvement. ''' OK. Anecdotal, not random sampling, but it proves that "Just use contraception!" isn't a fair answer for whatever reason. Anyway, the kids that are born to prostitutes are certainly not consenting and absolutely in a bad situation.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > The downvotes on this are baffling. I hope ProAm gets some corrective upvotes, because they're making reasonable points in a polite way, yet all their posts are getting downvotes.
atmosx 10y ago
> What makes sexual labor so horrid? Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. It's okay to display violence, no one will argue, but displaying explicit sex scenes... Well that's a no-no :-) We have more than a few remnants from the dark ages. EDIT: There's this amazing song by an Italian cantautor called "Fabrizio De Andre". The story (lyrics) are spectacular, full of everyday life wisdom. You can read an English translation on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs
- Fastidious 10y ago
  Yes, religion (especially Christianity) comes, once again, to mess things up. It is the cause of many problems we have today, and it affect us all, as it is deeply ingrained in politics and government. I can go and sell blood, or work ten hours a day, or eat until I explode, yet I have someone dictating what I can or cannot do with my sex life? Certainly more than a few remnants from the dark ages.
- Zircom 10y ago
  >You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Or perhaps that has more to do with the fact that Catholicism is central to Mathew Murdock as a character, so it makes sense he isn't sleeping around given that premarital sex is a big no-no for Catholics. Also, we're only two seasons in, not three.
  - vacri 10y ago
    I thought it funny that in Dexter, where the protagonist is a serial killer who carves people up as the central plot device, the topic of abortion was shut down. Dexter gets his girlfriend pregnant, and doesn't even get past the first sentence before she shuts down that avenue completely. Simply not an option for even a minor discussion.
Spooky23 10y ago
> What makes sexual labor so horrid? It's generally exploitive of women.
- enneff 10y ago
  "explotive" isn't a word and that's not an argument.
- Mz 10y ago
  So is paying women less than men for the same work and designing jobs to be filled by a married man with a supportive wife. Women get devalued and exploited in a great many ways. This is hardly unique to sex work. And when sex work is illegal, it just makes it easier to exploit the sex workers. It doesn't protect them.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    There's a difference between selling your labor and selling yourself. It's a business that fundamentally thrives on exploiting the weak. Similar industries that ride the edge like porn and strip joints aren't exactly empowering of women, and attract a seedy element from a business owner (and patron) point of view.
    - chc 10y ago
      This seems to be punting on the question. Why is being paid to massage somebody's shoulders "selling your labor" while being paid to massage their genitals is "selling yourself"?
- gozur88 10y ago
  What does that mean in concrete terms? What makes prostitution different than other jobs?
  - nyolfen 10y ago
    for a lack of a better term, women become debased as potential romantic sexual partners. this is cultural and intangible, but isn't associated with most jobs, even if they're very low skill or status.
refurb 10y ago
The only real problems are disease and abuse. You answered your own question. I have no doubt there are plenty of folks out there who are willing and eager participants in prostitution. Since it seems to be heavily associated with abuse, drug addiction and violence, society has put effort into stamping it out.
- enneff 10y ago
  You have cause and effect backwards. Puritanical religious movements drove it underground which made it more hazardous that it need be.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    Even in places that have decriminalization, prostitution is still something that is associated with desperation, coercion, and crime. You can blame religious movements until you're red in the face, but the research is there that shows that prostitution is strongly associated with mental health issues [1][2]. It's unsurprising when you're working day in and day out with people who think that they can literally buy your body and emotions. Taking a look at any "prostitute review" site will show you what the men who purchase sex actually think of prostitutes -- feel free to imagine what having sex with these people day in and day out would be like. [1] http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf [2] https://www.collegium.ethz.ch/fileadmin/autoren/pdf_papers/10_roessler_sexwork.pdf https://www.collegium.ethz.ch/fileadmin/autoren/pdf_papers/1...
  - gozur88 10y ago
    I don't think that's true. Over the years prostitution has been legal and even celebrated by different cultures. The religious reaction to the downsides is no different than that of the prohibition of pork.
  - refurb 10y ago
    Whoa, wait a second. First you say cause and effect is backwards, so prohibition of prostitution resulted in the bad effects? But then you say it made it more hazardous. Those are two different things.
clavalle 10y ago
>What makes sexual labor so horrid? It is a really effective way to spread some pretty terrible diseases. And, no, condoms and dental dams etc aren't going to be full protection. There are some that are not routinely tested for and many people don't know about. For example HTLV is a sexually transmitted virus that can stay dormant for decades before causing lymphoma all the while being passed to other people. In other instances it can lead to nerve damage. I wonder how many people have 'MS' when it is really just a nerve destroying virus nobody thought to test them for or that we haven't isolated yet... And that is one that we happen to know about (but isn't commonly regarded). What about all of those diseases that we haven't discovered yet? They are out there. Just because religion says its wrong doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. This is not an original idea but I think it is likely a lot of religious dogma comes from practical observation that was easier for observers to explain to lay-folk as the Will of God rather than as a probabilistic fact. It is dangerous to assume that people don't have a point because of the way that point is presented.
- argonaut 10y ago
  Putting thousands of chickens in a single pen (industrial mass food production) is also a really effective way to spread some terrible diseases (antibiotic resistance), and incubate new ones (avian flu). Suffice to say, while this is a valid effect, it is not the actual reason the public has such a moral aversion to legalized prostitution.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    Which came first, the moral aversion or the danger?
    - argonaut 10y ago
      The "danger" may have been a motivation for the development of the religious motivation. But there were plenty of societies in history that had no problem with prostitution. That being said, its historical origin has no relevance today.
    - 10y ago
random_upvoter 10y ago
> How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... This sounds true if you have a choice of jobs. But with "regular" jobs, we accept that someone can be forced by circumstances to take such a job, even if it isn't the greatest job in the world. Suppose a friend of mine is unemployed and complaining about money problems, I can imagine myself saying "So why don't you just take the job of a dishwasher until things get better?" But I can't really imagine myself saying "So why don't you just sell your body until things get better?"
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  But how much of that is because of societies stigma, vs your actual perception of the industry. I'm not saying your wrong, I kind of have that stigma too, but I can't say wether I actually believe it or I've been conditioned to.
  - random_upvoter 10y ago
    People recognize there exists, to some extent, a moral obligation to do work. But if we accept prostitution as "just another job", aren't we implying that people come under some measure of moral obligation to accept that job if it's the only job available? For instance, people may lose unemployment benefits if they turn down a "suitable" job. I cannot imagine anyone would want to extend this rule to prostitution.
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      I can imagine people who would, if only tacitly. It's not news in the UK that one of the side effects of tuition fees has been a big increase in student-age women funding their courses by selling sex. You can argue whether this was an intended or unintended consequence. But for anyone buying, it's hard to argue that increasing supply and lowering prices isn't a happy result.
    - drumdance 10y ago
      Social mores are full of exceptions. Killing as murder vs. self-defense vs. getting an abortion, for example. I don't see any reason why prostitution couldn't be lumped in with other exceptions.
EdSharkey 10y ago
I don't object to someone selling sexual services as a free agent. What I object to is the human trafficking associated with the vast majority of it. Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade! Full stop.
- tremon 10y ago
  Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade! That's the war on drugs all over again: the violence and exploitation is mostly a consequence of the illegality, not of the profession itself.
  - EdSharkey 10y ago
    Yeah, the world is screwed up in so many ways. How great would it be if you could assume every sex worker you paid for wasn't a slave? But, I have a such a convenient solution, hear me out! We can just delude ourselves into thinking the world already works the way we think it should. We won't have to acknowledge the misery we perpetuate AND we can get our rocks off in the most awesomest way.
- tomp 10y ago
  > If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade. If you paying for a fast food burger or for an iPhone, assume you're in the slave trade.
  - EdSharkey 10y ago
    Absurd comparisons and moral equivalence all in one! Let's all pay for sex!!!!!!!
- neoCrimeLabs 10y ago
  I would be curious as to where you get "vast majority" from. One of the things I love HN community for is the overall interest in collecting and representing reliable statistical information. The reason I am questioning "vast majority" is that when something is illegal, it's very hard to derive accurate statistics on. When something is illegal your primary sources of information is law enforcement, people who have exited, and what a few people involved in the activity will volunteer. Since the activity is illegal, few people who are actively involved will volunteer information for the fear of having it used against them. Add to that the stigma that sexual services carries with it (regardless if they were cohered or not), and people REALLY do not want to divulge information about their activities in sexual services even after they have exited. Because of this any metrics derived will be very law-enforcement biased, or from a vastly small sample of the overall community. Neither of these are reliable sources of information. Just looking at how the FBI in recent years /reduced/ the number of statistics available on their sexual-service stings is a great example of this. It makes it impossible for anyone to derive reliable or trend-able information from the statistics they have released. Here's a great article that explains a lot of what I'm saying with links to verifiable references https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/24/why-you-should-be-wary-of-statistics-on-modern-slavery-and-trafficking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/...
max_ 10y ago
I cannot agree more. I think prostitution is a victimless crime and the only reason why countries penalize it, is because politicians are not brave enough to do it. They fear to be labeled "immoral" or bad influences of some sort by religious audiences.
- shkkmo 10y ago
  Prostitution as a crime, frequently has victims. Usually as a direct result of it's illegality.
downandout 10y ago
Every point you raise is valid. I strongly believe it should be decriminalized. However, I just don't see it ever happening in the US. Why? Because women don't want their husbands or boyfriends buying sex from other women, and that simple fact alone is enough to swing any election involving a candidate that would enable it to legally happen.
- colemickens 10y ago
  Are you suggesting that keeping prostitution illegal is preventing men from cheating on their wives? I've not met many people who are so naive.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    "62% of interviewees identified as having a girlfriend or wife" http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/sites/default/files/imce/Deconstructing_the_Demand_For_Prostitution%20(3).pdf http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/sites/default/files/imce/...
    - kefka 10y ago
      And every one of those things was targeting illegal brothels run by pimps in Chicago. If the facilities themselves were gov't ran, with weekly medical checks and safety protocols, then I have a feeling things would be very different. Right now, with prostitution being illegal, it is abhorrent and disgusting and evil. I'm thinking of the similar comparisons with Colorado and marijuana.
  - spacehome 10y ago
    If you're in a union, you're going to be against scabs who undercut your price.
  - downandout 10y ago
    I'm not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that women won't elect someone that will give their husbands an additional, legal avenue to cheat on them.
seanalltogether 10y ago
> How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sexual labor. What makes sexual labor so horrid? I'll bite. Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing, and this is what opens the doors to abuse. You cannot make money off a factory, construction, or retail employee if they just sit there and do nothing, you can however make money off a sex employee in that situation. I think there is something fundamentally different about a sex worker that can't allow us to compare them to athletes or construction workers or other professions.
- gizmo686 10y ago
  >Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing. What? If I hire a prostitute, and they do not do anything, I would want my money back. If it prostitution were legal, one could consider suing the prostitute (although, like most scammers, it is probably easier to eat the loss then go after them). Maybe you are saying that a sex worker could have an arrangement where they get paid for merely being on-call, even if no work comes in for them. However, this is not unique to sex work either. For instance, I have a doctor friend who does online consulting. He has regular hours that he gets paid for, even though often times he does not receive any calls during this time. I assume that there are other industries with simmilar arrangements.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I kind of interpreted it to mean "She can just lay there and do nothing while he fucks her!" I am hoping I am wrong. Regardless of how it is intended, it is wrong.
whiddershins 10y ago
I don't know. I'm in favor of legalizing prostitution. But I don't think all work is created equal. Doing intimate and personal things for money COULD be argued to be such a mentally or emotionally damaging task, only people being exploited would ever take the work. I think any work which falls in to the category of /no one would do it unless they are horribly without options/ is work that society should strive to eliminate.
gricardo99 10y ago
I used to hold similar views, but the opinion of this person, who worked with prostitutes, really opened my eyes to the problems and started to change my mind: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/02/22/dissent-of-the-day-9-5/ http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/02/22/dissent-of-the-day... From a economics stand-point, there's way higher demand than supply. And currently the only supply is another person. Most people won't willingly choose to be prostitutes when they have other options. Surprise! This big supply/demand gap leads to some very unsavory ways to increase supply:coercion and exploitation. Maybe one day something like sexbots will change this dynamic, but until then the sex trade is a very difficult and tragic problem.
- shkkmo 10y ago
  And you think that forcing the market to be a black market decreases the coercion and exploitation? Simply legalizing sex work is not enough. We have to combat the social stigma. We have to craft regulation that puts the power in the hands of sex workers, not brothels. We have to put in place enforcement strategies that combat and discourage human trafficking (such as undercover checks of immigration status that provide amnesty for illegal immigrants while prosecuting those who trafficked them.) The solutions to combat exploitation and coercion are not simple, but making it illegal solves very few problems beyond allowing some people to feel morally superior. As we work towards solving these problems, our position on the supply/demand curve will shift to provide a price where supply equals demand.
  - gricardo99 10y ago
    > And you think that forcing the market to be a black market decreases the coercion and exploitation? No, I don't. I was countering the PC's notion that prostitution should be treated like any other profession.
    - shkkmo 10y ago
      I'm not sure why you got down voted here.
pcarolan 10y ago
I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up. Its not about religion or morality its about quality of life. Its about humanity.
- mason55 10y ago
  > I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up. Is it most people's dream to be a fast food worker, Walmart greeter, or street sweeper? Tons of people work jobs they didn't dream of because they pay the bills, why is sex work so different?
  - joshschreuder 10y ago
    Personally I think it's probably more about the emotional or intimacy factor that would put someone off such a career. There is no inherent intimacy (taught, or otherwise) to working as a greeter or fast food worker, but whether through cultural or biological forces, I would imagine most people would consider sex an intimate act which would put them off pursuing it as a career.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
bikamonki 10y ago
You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job! It is obvious that most prostitutes are not there by choice, by a mature rational decision. Most prostitutes are victims dragged into it by ignorance, by poverty, by drug addiction, by human traffic and exploitation. The psychological damage is done too fast too soon, rehab is hard if not impossible. In many cases they become pregnant and now they have another mouth to feed. If the kid is a girl, very likely to learn to do what the mother does. It should be a crime! However, only the buyer should be punished, as it would be very unjust to punish the victim twice.
- sreya 10y ago
  You argue under the presumption that the prostitute is there against their will. Assuming prostitution is made legal and thus brothels are allowed to operate under government regulations there shouldn't be any emotional or physical trauma. Prostitutes would become prostitutes because they would want to or because circumstances determined that that was the best way for them to make a living. Pregnancy wouldn't be an issue either. You know people become porn stars because they want to right? How is being a prostitute in a regulated industry any different?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Except for trafficking and exploitation (well, except insofar as economic duress is exploitation, in which case that too), all that's true of many legal low-status jobs, and trafficking and exploitation (beyond the economic duress of poverty in capitalism) are issues created of exacerbated by criminalization.
- tomp 10y ago
  > You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job! Given that people freely choose very similar jobs (porn actors & actresses), it would appear to me that some consider this a legitimate and good life choice (plenty of sex, good money, good working hours). Having said that, I personally don't understand why anyone would choose that life path. But I also don't understand why anyone would voluntarily go into the military. Different people like different things!
jcslzr 10y ago
No its not the same selling your labor to selling sex. Because sex is something intimate. But your analogy is not wrong. When we sell our time doing something we dont like we also become prostitutes. There are things that should not be for sale, because they are holy. Time and intimacy are in that group. On the other hand making it illegal creates many problems and does not resolve anything. I personally think the real reason prostitution is illegal is so men are more willing to marry and to be under control of their wifes, years ago it was normal to go to a cantina with prostitues on it, and every respectable person was there. Back then the respect a man got from his wife was much much better also.

by kefka 10y ago

ProAm 10y ago

It's really hard to make babies at the construction site, even on accident.

kefka 10y ago
Sex work has nothing to do with children. At all. Birth control, IUDs, condoms, and abortions are all used to prevent births. Now, if you're talking about paid surrogacy, that's a whole different area, and a whole different set of laws.
- ProAm 10y ago
  > Birth control, IUDs, condoms, and abortions are all used to prevent births. Sure used, but easily avoided, and it would be a social and political nightmare to deal with this as a society.
tomp 10y ago
It's easy to die, though.
- ProAm 10y ago
  Sure but insurance companies have already determined and society has accepted the value of human life. If I recall it averages out to 1.3 million (looking for evidence now) EPA has it listed at 7.4 mil [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#Life_Value_in_the_US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#Life_Value_in_th... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-epa-has-tabulated-the-value-of-a-human-life-2012-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-epa-has-tabulated-the-val... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/weekinreview/09marsh.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/weekinreview/09marsh.html
  - tomp 10y ago
    > Sure but insurance companies have already determined and society has accepted the value of human life. Same for abortion.
    - ProAm 10y ago
      This is not true evidenced by the fact it is a political talking point every election cycle.
humanrebar 10y ago
The downvotes on this are baffling. Is it so hard to believe that poorly educated addicts are selling sex on the side and getting pregnant? Just googling a little: http://gradworks.umi.com/34/32/3432633.html http://gradworks.umi.com/34/32/3432633.html ''' The vast majority, 19 of the 20 participants, had been pregnant as a result of intimate partner, rape, and prostitution encounters. The risk of pregnancy was not a concern for most participants. Participants rarely used consistent contraception with either intimate partners or prostitution clients. Most pregnancies were unintended, irrespective of prostitution involvement. ''' OK. Anecdotal, not random sampling, but it proves that "Just use contraception!" isn't a fair answer for whatever reason. Anyway, the kids that are born to prostitutes are certainly not consenting and absolutely in a bad situation.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > The downvotes on this are baffling. I hope ProAm gets some corrective upvotes, because they're making reasonable points in a polite way, yet all their posts are getting downvotes.

atmosx 10y ago

> What makes sexual labor so horrid? Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. It's okay to display violence, no one will argue, but displaying explicit sex scenes... Well that's a no-no :-) We have more than a few remnants from the dark ages. EDIT: There's this amazing song by an Italian cantautor called "Fabrizio De Andre". The story (lyrics) are spectacular, full of everyday life wisdom. You can read an English translation on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs

Fastidious 10y ago
Yes, religion (especially Christianity) comes, once again, to mess things up. It is the cause of many problems we have today, and it affect us all, as it is deeply ingrained in politics and government. I can go and sell blood, or work ten hours a day, or eat until I explode, yet I have someone dictating what I can or cannot do with my sex life? Certainly more than a few remnants from the dark ages.
Zircom 10y ago
>You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Or perhaps that has more to do with the fact that Catholicism is central to Mathew Murdock as a character, so it makes sense he isn't sleeping around given that premarital sex is a big no-no for Catholics. Also, we're only two seasons in, not three.
- vacri 10y ago
  I thought it funny that in Dexter, where the protagonist is a serial killer who carves people up as the central plot device, the topic of abortion was shut down. Dexter gets his girlfriend pregnant, and doesn't even get past the first sentence before she shuts down that avenue completely. Simply not an option for even a minor discussion.

Spooky23 10y ago

> What makes sexual labor so horrid? It's generally exploitive of women.

enneff 10y ago
"explotive" isn't a word and that's not an argument.
Mz 10y ago
So is paying women less than men for the same work and designing jobs to be filled by a married man with a supportive wife. Women get devalued and exploited in a great many ways. This is hardly unique to sex work. And when sex work is illegal, it just makes it easier to exploit the sex workers. It doesn't protect them.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  There's a difference between selling your labor and selling yourself. It's a business that fundamentally thrives on exploiting the weak. Similar industries that ride the edge like porn and strip joints aren't exactly empowering of women, and attract a seedy element from a business owner (and patron) point of view.
  - chc 10y ago
    This seems to be punting on the question. Why is being paid to massage somebody's shoulders "selling your labor" while being paid to massage their genitals is "selling yourself"?
gozur88 10y ago
What does that mean in concrete terms? What makes prostitution different than other jobs?
- nyolfen 10y ago
  for a lack of a better term, women become debased as potential romantic sexual partners. this is cultural and intangible, but isn't associated with most jobs, even if they're very low skill or status.

refurb 10y ago

The only real problems are disease and abuse. You answered your own question. I have no doubt there are plenty of folks out there who are willing and eager participants in prostitution. Since it seems to be heavily associated with abuse, drug addiction and violence, society has put effort into stamping it out.

enneff 10y ago
You have cause and effect backwards. Puritanical religious movements drove it underground which made it more hazardous that it need be.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  Even in places that have decriminalization, prostitution is still something that is associated with desperation, coercion, and crime. You can blame religious movements until you're red in the face, but the research is there that shows that prostitution is strongly associated with mental health issues [1][2]. It's unsurprising when you're working day in and day out with people who think that they can literally buy your body and emotions. Taking a look at any "prostitute review" site will show you what the men who purchase sex actually think of prostitutes -- feel free to imagine what having sex with these people day in and day out would be like. [1] http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf [2] https://www.collegium.ethz.ch/fileadmin/autoren/pdf_papers/10_roessler_sexwork.pdf https://www.collegium.ethz.ch/fileadmin/autoren/pdf_papers/1...
- gozur88 10y ago
  I don't think that's true. Over the years prostitution has been legal and even celebrated by different cultures. The religious reaction to the downsides is no different than that of the prohibition of pork.
- refurb 10y ago
  Whoa, wait a second. First you say cause and effect is backwards, so prohibition of prostitution resulted in the bad effects? But then you say it made it more hazardous. Those are two different things.

clavalle 10y ago

>What makes sexual labor so horrid? It is a really effective way to spread some pretty terrible diseases. And, no, condoms and dental dams etc aren't going to be full protection. There are some that are not routinely tested for and many people don't know about. For example HTLV is a sexually transmitted virus that can stay dormant for decades before causing lymphoma all the while being passed to other people. In other instances it can lead to nerve damage. I wonder how many people have 'MS' when it is really just a nerve destroying virus nobody thought to test them for or that we haven't isolated yet... And that is one that we happen to know about (but isn't commonly regarded). What about all of those diseases that we haven't discovered yet? They are out there. Just because religion says its wrong doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. This is not an original idea but I think it is likely a lot of religious dogma comes from practical observation that was easier for observers to explain to lay-folk as the Will of God rather than as a probabilistic fact. It is dangerous to assume that people don't have a point because of the way that point is presented.

argonaut 10y ago
Putting thousands of chickens in a single pen (industrial mass food production) is also a really effective way to spread some terrible diseases (antibiotic resistance), and incubate new ones (avian flu). Suffice to say, while this is a valid effect, it is not the actual reason the public has such a moral aversion to legalized prostitution.
- clavalle 10y ago
  Which came first, the moral aversion or the danger?
  - argonaut 10y ago
    The "danger" may have been a motivation for the development of the religious motivation. But there were plenty of societies in history that had no problem with prostitution. That being said, its historical origin has no relevance today.
  - 10y ago

random_upvoter 10y ago

> How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... This sounds true if you have a choice of jobs. But with "regular" jobs, we accept that someone can be forced by circumstances to take such a job, even if it isn't the greatest job in the world. Suppose a friend of mine is unemployed and complaining about money problems, I can imagine myself saying "So why don't you just take the job of a dishwasher until things get better?" But I can't really imagine myself saying "So why don't you just sell your body until things get better?"

CaptSpify 10y ago
But how much of that is because of societies stigma, vs your actual perception of the industry. I'm not saying your wrong, I kind of have that stigma too, but I can't say wether I actually believe it or I've been conditioned to.
- random_upvoter 10y ago
  People recognize there exists, to some extent, a moral obligation to do work. But if we accept prostitution as "just another job", aren't we implying that people come under some measure of moral obligation to accept that job if it's the only job available? For instance, people may lose unemployment benefits if they turn down a "suitable" job. I cannot imagine anyone would want to extend this rule to prostitution.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    I can imagine people who would, if only tacitly. It's not news in the UK that one of the side effects of tuition fees has been a big increase in student-age women funding their courses by selling sex. You can argue whether this was an intended or unintended consequence. But for anyone buying, it's hard to argue that increasing supply and lowering prices isn't a happy result.
  - drumdance 10y ago
    Social mores are full of exceptions. Killing as murder vs. self-defense vs. getting an abortion, for example. I don't see any reason why prostitution couldn't be lumped in with other exceptions.

EdSharkey 10y ago

I don't object to someone selling sexual services as a free agent. What I object to is the human trafficking associated with the vast majority of it. Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade! Full stop.

tremon 10y ago
Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade! That's the war on drugs all over again: the violence and exploitation is mostly a consequence of the illegality, not of the profession itself.
- EdSharkey 10y ago
  Yeah, the world is screwed up in so many ways. How great would it be if you could assume every sex worker you paid for wasn't a slave? But, I have a such a convenient solution, hear me out! We can just delude ourselves into thinking the world already works the way we think it should. We won't have to acknowledge the misery we perpetuate AND we can get our rocks off in the most awesomest way.
tomp 10y ago
> If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade. If you paying for a fast food burger or for an iPhone, assume you're in the slave trade.
- EdSharkey 10y ago
  Absurd comparisons and moral equivalence all in one! Let's all pay for sex!!!!!!!
neoCrimeLabs 10y ago
I would be curious as to where you get "vast majority" from. One of the things I love HN community for is the overall interest in collecting and representing reliable statistical information. The reason I am questioning "vast majority" is that when something is illegal, it's very hard to derive accurate statistics on. When something is illegal your primary sources of information is law enforcement, people who have exited, and what a few people involved in the activity will volunteer. Since the activity is illegal, few people who are actively involved will volunteer information for the fear of having it used against them. Add to that the stigma that sexual services carries with it (regardless if they were cohered or not), and people REALLY do not want to divulge information about their activities in sexual services even after they have exited. Because of this any metrics derived will be very law-enforcement biased, or from a vastly small sample of the overall community. Neither of these are reliable sources of information. Just looking at how the FBI in recent years /reduced/ the number of statistics available on their sexual-service stings is a great example of this. It makes it impossible for anyone to derive reliable or trend-able information from the statistics they have released. Here's a great article that explains a lot of what I'm saying with links to verifiable references https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/24/why-you-should-be-wary-of-statistics-on-modern-slavery-and-trafficking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/...

max_ 10y ago

I cannot agree more. I think prostitution is a victimless crime and the only reason why countries penalize it, is because politicians are not brave enough to do it. They fear to be labeled "immoral" or bad influences of some sort by religious audiences.

shkkmo 10y ago
Prostitution as a crime, frequently has victims. Usually as a direct result of it's illegality.

downandout 10y ago

Every point you raise is valid. I strongly believe it should be decriminalized. However, I just don't see it ever happening in the US. Why? Because women don't want their husbands or boyfriends buying sex from other women, and that simple fact alone is enough to swing any election involving a candidate that would enable it to legally happen.

colemickens 10y ago
Are you suggesting that keeping prostitution illegal is preventing men from cheating on their wives? I've not met many people who are so naive.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  "62% of interviewees identified as having a girlfriend or wife" http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/sites/default/files/imce/Deconstructing_the_Demand_For_Prostitution%20(3).pdf http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/sites/default/files/imce/...
  - kefka 10y ago
    And every one of those things was targeting illegal brothels run by pimps in Chicago. If the facilities themselves were gov't ran, with weekly medical checks and safety protocols, then I have a feeling things would be very different. Right now, with prostitution being illegal, it is abhorrent and disgusting and evil. I'm thinking of the similar comparisons with Colorado and marijuana.
- spacehome 10y ago
  If you're in a union, you're going to be against scabs who undercut your price.
- downandout 10y ago
  I'm not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that women won't elect someone that will give their husbands an additional, legal avenue to cheat on them.

seanalltogether 10y ago

> How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sexual labor. What makes sexual labor so horrid? I'll bite. Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing, and this is what opens the doors to abuse. You cannot make money off a factory, construction, or retail employee if they just sit there and do nothing, you can however make money off a sex employee in that situation. I think there is something fundamentally different about a sex worker that can't allow us to compare them to athletes or construction workers or other professions.

gizmo686 10y ago
>Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing. What? If I hire a prostitute, and they do not do anything, I would want my money back. If it prostitution were legal, one could consider suing the prostitute (although, like most scammers, it is probably easier to eat the loss then go after them). Maybe you are saying that a sex worker could have an arrangement where they get paid for merely being on-call, even if no work comes in for them. However, this is not unique to sex work either. For instance, I have a doctor friend who does online consulting. He has regular hours that he gets paid for, even though often times he does not receive any calls during this time. I assume that there are other industries with simmilar arrangements.
- Mz 10y ago
  I kind of interpreted it to mean "She can just lay there and do nothing while he fucks her!" I am hoping I am wrong. Regardless of how it is intended, it is wrong.

whiddershins 10y ago

I don't know. I'm in favor of legalizing prostitution. But I don't think all work is created equal. Doing intimate and personal things for money COULD be argued to be such a mentally or emotionally damaging task, only people being exploited would ever take the work. I think any work which falls in to the category of /no one would do it unless they are horribly without options/ is work that society should strive to eliminate.

gricardo99 10y ago

I used to hold similar views, but the opinion of this person, who worked with prostitutes, really opened my eyes to the problems and started to change my mind: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/02/22/dissent-of-the-day-9-5/ http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/02/22/dissent-of-the-day... From a economics stand-point, there's way higher demand than supply. And currently the only supply is another person. Most people won't willingly choose to be prostitutes when they have other options. Surprise! This big supply/demand gap leads to some very unsavory ways to increase supply:coercion and exploitation. Maybe one day something like sexbots will change this dynamic, but until then the sex trade is a very difficult and tragic problem.

shkkmo 10y ago
And you think that forcing the market to be a black market decreases the coercion and exploitation? Simply legalizing sex work is not enough. We have to combat the social stigma. We have to craft regulation that puts the power in the hands of sex workers, not brothels. We have to put in place enforcement strategies that combat and discourage human trafficking (such as undercover checks of immigration status that provide amnesty for illegal immigrants while prosecuting those who trafficked them.) The solutions to combat exploitation and coercion are not simple, but making it illegal solves very few problems beyond allowing some people to feel morally superior. As we work towards solving these problems, our position on the supply/demand curve will shift to provide a price where supply equals demand.
- gricardo99 10y ago
  > And you think that forcing the market to be a black market decreases the coercion and exploitation? No, I don't. I was countering the PC's notion that prostitution should be treated like any other profession.
  - shkkmo 10y ago
    I'm not sure why you got down voted here.

pcarolan 10y ago

I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up. Its not about religion or morality its about quality of life. Its about humanity.

mason55 10y ago
> I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up. Is it most people's dream to be a fast food worker, Walmart greeter, or street sweeper? Tons of people work jobs they didn't dream of because they pay the bills, why is sex work so different?
- joshschreuder 10y ago
  Personally I think it's probably more about the emotional or intimacy factor that would put someone off such a career. There is no inherent intimacy (taught, or otherwise) to working as a greeter or fast food worker, but whether through cultural or biological forces, I would imagine most people would consider sex an intimate act which would put them off pursuing it as a career.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

bikamonki 10y ago

You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job! It is obvious that most prostitutes are not there by choice, by a mature rational decision. Most prostitutes are victims dragged into it by ignorance, by poverty, by drug addiction, by human traffic and exploitation. The psychological damage is done too fast too soon, rehab is hard if not impossible. In many cases they become pregnant and now they have another mouth to feed. If the kid is a girl, very likely to learn to do what the mother does. It should be a crime! However, only the buyer should be punished, as it would be very unjust to punish the victim twice.

sreya 10y ago
You argue under the presumption that the prostitute is there against their will. Assuming prostitution is made legal and thus brothels are allowed to operate under government regulations there shouldn't be any emotional or physical trauma. Prostitutes would become prostitutes because they would want to or because circumstances determined that that was the best way for them to make a living. Pregnancy wouldn't be an issue either. You know people become porn stars because they want to right? How is being a prostitute in a regulated industry any different?
dragonwriter 10y ago
Except for trafficking and exploitation (well, except insofar as economic duress is exploitation, in which case that too), all that's true of many legal low-status jobs, and trafficking and exploitation (beyond the economic duress of poverty in capitalism) are issues created of exacerbated by criminalization.
tomp 10y ago
> You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job! Given that people freely choose very similar jobs (porn actors & actresses), it would appear to me that some consider this a legitimate and good life choice (plenty of sex, good money, good working hours). Having said that, I personally don't understand why anyone would choose that life path. But I also don't understand why anyone would voluntarily go into the military. Different people like different things!

jcslzr 10y ago

No its not the same selling your labor to selling sex. Because sex is something intimate. But your analogy is not wrong. When we sell our time doing something we dont like we also become prostitutes. There are things that should not be for sale, because they are holy. Time and intimacy are in that group. On the other hand making it illegal creates many problems and does not resolve anything. I personally think the real reason prostitution is illegal is so men are more willing to marry and to be under control of their wifes, years ago it was normal to go to a cantina with prostitues on it, and every respectable person was there. Back then the respect a man got from his wife was much much better also.