6 ms·

Peter Shankman / HARO Just Sent Me a Cease-and-Desist Letter. What Now?

95 points by ryanwaggoner 17y ago

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting the actual letter online? I'd like to get more people's thoughts on it.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  I went ahead and posted it anyway.
- jrockway 17y ago
  You can get in trouble for anything. You probably won't get the lethal injection for this, though.
- alain94040 17y ago
  Not really. Frivolous harrassment is always an option of course, sure. The advice I give at the Founder Institute is to try not to needlessly annoy or upset the people who are likely to sue you. So while posting the letter would be fun, it would also make it more likely that you get hit with legal fees. Your call.
noelchurchill 17y ago
Sounds like you're website is good enough to be a threat. Keep it up!
oliverkofoed 17y ago
HARO is a good business for Peter Shankman, I just googled it and first link says $800K/year around the start of 2009[1]. The point being that it's probably not so much about him not liking that you mentioned him[2], as the fact that you're stepping onto his turf, and him wanting to defend it. [1] = http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k_business_96405.asp http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k... [2] = You write: "I’m pretty disappointed that Peter decided to be such a jackass about this. If he had bothered to write me an email, I would have gladly removed his name and never mentioned this to anyone."
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Yeah, I know. It's just ridiculous, because he was (maybe still is?) the upstart in this space a couple years ago when he started a mailing list and now he's throwing around C&D notices like he's this great innovator in the space?
  - wavesplash 17y ago
    There's nothing wrong with the incumbent defending his turf. I personally think HARO needs a kick in the arse, quality and innovation wise. Bring it on.
    - shpxnvz 17y ago
      IMO there's something wrong with the incumbent defending his turf this way. If they want to out-innovate or out-compete the guy, great, but I personally find it hard to back a business who only aims to win by out-lawyering their rivals.
  - angelbob 17y ago
    From his point of view, hey, it might have worked. From our points of view: for the best that it didn't, plus he looks like an ass.
  - gcheong 17y ago
    Frivolous C&D aside, I don't quite understand your logic. You seem to be trying to use the idea that he just started a simple mailing list as proof that his approach to the problem he was solving wasn't innovative, and yet you claim he was the inspiration for your product. So what was it about this particular person's approach that inspired you if you didn't think it was innovative?
    - ryanwaggoner 17y ago
      Just the general idea of connecting reporters and sources. That's all. Before HARO, I had never thought about the problem at all. But HARO is hardly a new idea at all, it's just that's where I first encountered it.
earle 17y ago
Once again a good example of "speak to an attorney before posting to Hacker News"... Regardless of what your opinions are here, you need to speak to an attorney who can properly advise you before soapboxing.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  What makes you think I haven't?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - wavesplash 17y ago
    The comment that asked "Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting this letter online..." ;) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1154198 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1154198
- dimarco 17y ago
  No need for downvoting this comment. The title ends in "What Now?", the OP asks HN if it's legal to post the C&D letter, and no where in the OP's blog does it say "Of course I've contacted my lawyer". earle's advice is the best advice posted yet.
wavesplash 17y ago
Welcome to the wooly world of business my friend. You're threatening an incumbent and he's lashing out. Peter has wrapped up his ego into HARO so expect him to take it personally. Legally there's very little HARO can do except force you to defend a meritless case. I don't believe they have a leg to stand on. You're not violating copyright, or trademark in any form, and he doesn't have an issued patent. The one real takeaway is never launch a business and credit the competitor on the site. It just gives them fuel to create legal hassles for you. Next steps: Get a lawyer. Have your lawyer write a firm letter showing Shankman's lawyer that their claims are meritless and you will vigorously defend the case. Meantime, this is a great PR coup for you. Tech blogs love a little drama, at least certain ones do. Use it for the free PR. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Though I have had to defend against bogus patent and copyright claims before.
- rwhitman 17y ago
  Yea putting a competitor's name in your materials is probably a bad idea, unless you're Verizon... I'd imagine its easier to stay under their radar if your site doesn't directly come up in google alert results for their name too. BUT, considering that the battle is over the PR business, journalists should be eating this up! I bet a lot of startups wish they could get a high-profile cease and desist hahaha
  - dkarl 17y ago
    If you're under your competitors' radar then you're probably under your potential customers' radar, too, right?
  - cookiecaper 17y ago
    For the record, Verizon got sued by AT&T for the commercials that made the direct comparison. They just have the money and clout that they can afford to be dragged through what both parties know is a meritless lawsuit.
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      I think the point is being sued worked out very well for Verizon, as it drew more attention to their claims of having a superior network to AT&T. (As you said, if they did not have the money and lawyers to dispute AT&T's claims it may have been a different story.)
jrockway 17y ago
How can you steal someone's ideas? If something is not copyrighted or trademarked or covered by a private contract, you didn't steal anything. (Right?)
- shpxnvz 17y ago
  So far as I know ideas can't be stolen. Nor can they be protected as intellectual property in the U.S., according to the USPTO: "A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion."
jasonkester 17y ago
Ideas by themself are worthless. It's execution that matters. It's the same story that every one of us running a business faces every time a new competitor shows up. All this guy can do is hope that you don't execute as well as him.
zachware 17y ago
First, let's be honest, you set yourself up for this by referring to Shankman and HARO. That was a mistake. This is typical in a marketplace where people run out of innovative ideas (or never had them in the first place.) I've been around the "sender" side of this type of thing before. Honest truth, you might get outgunned by legal tactics and that sucks. You have a more innovative, more focused product. If you're bankrolled then fight it. If not, tread lightly. Once you used his name you set this up. Either way, they will keep sending ridiculous letters. My advice: -Call an attorney, get some advice. -Setup a backup host and confirm your DNS is separate from your hosting account. (Next up is a C&D to your host) -Send an urgent appeal to everyone on your list, even journalists. You might lose a few followers in the process but if people value your service they will fight for you (particularly nice because your service helps journalists.)
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  First, let's be honest, you set yourself up for this by referring to Shankman and HARO. That was a mistake. Yeah, I know that now. I can't believe how shitty this move is on his part. When I built PRManna, HARO was literally just an AWeber mailing list. I was inspired by the idea of connecting journalists with sources (which is hardly Shankman's original idea) and thought I could do a better job, but I wanted to give him a shout-out and some credit. No good deed goes unpunished.
  - wavesplash 17y ago
    I don't understand why it's a 'shitty move on his part'. You started a fight and called the guy out by name. Why wouldn't you expect him to react? How would you feel if instead of offering to partner, I borrowed the concept of your business (after you had spent a few years proving the model) and started a competitor while only crediting you for the inspiration? I bet you'd be wee bit annoyed, no?
    - pyre 17y ago
      The point is that HARO was hardly an original idea (connecting sources with reporters). This is like saying that Burger King inspired my idea for a restaurant, then Burger King sues me for stealing their idea of 'a restaurant that mainly serves burgers.' And WTF is the part about, "oh, by the way we demand that you hand your site over to us?" A C&D letter is to get him to CEASE and DESIST, you can't use it to perform a hostile takeover of a competitor.
mattmaroon 17y ago
Well, I know you're not going to like hearing this, but I'd first remove any mention of his name. Then I'd contact an attorney immediately. HN and blog readers are not sufficient sources of legal advice when facing a lawsuit. (They're more harm than good even when you're not, and now that he's spent legal fees you're not in Kansas anymore).
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  I did both immediately.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Glad to hear. I'd be really curious to hear what ends up happening if you're able to share. Also what your attorney told you.
aresant 17y ago
Using a direct competitors name without permission in a commercial application, where it could be construed as an implied endorsement, is not a good idea.
- cj 17y ago
  An "about us" page is meant to be more informational than commercial, but I understand your point.
contagionhealth 17y ago
Interesting that Hacker News folks jumped to the qualitative ideas that boil down to: 1. Dude! You built something cool! He's after you! Cool! You might lose it! Not cool. 2. You need a lawyer. My immediate response to the "What Now?" was do some research on this guy. Five minutes of Google searching and Ryan is in a much better position knowing who he's dealing with... Note that knowing about Peter's past legal stuff doesn't change the options: 1. Give up, give in. 2. Stand up and fight. 3. Get a lawyer and decide to do 1 or 2. That said, here are some links that may be of interest. Please note I have no vested interest in either party - just was curious. Wonder if I'll get a C&D too for sharing information: 1. The lawyer representing HARO, who's done some 9-11 related work: http://www.andersonkill.com/attorneysprofile.asp?id=5141 http://www.andersonkill.com/attorneysprofile.asp?id=5141 2. WIRED coverage: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/help-a-reporter-out/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/help-a-reporter-out/ 3. Past domain arbitration for Peter's LLC: http://domain.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1259290.htm http://domain.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1259290.htm 4. MediaBistro coverage of a conflict between Shankman's LLC and a PR agency: http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_agency_filing_lawsuit_against_company_131240.asp http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_...
hristov 17y ago
If you are going to refer to your competitors in public you may want to have a short (15 min) consultation with an IP lawyer. There are issues that arise if you use other people's trademarks. But these can be avoided if you use the proper disclaimers. So yeah speak to a lawyer. Although, at this point it would probably be longer than a 15 minute consultation.
systems 17y ago
I would like to just add that your site (PRManna) does kinda have the same look and feel of Shankman's site (HARO). I don't believe this is a coincidence. And its not like this look and feel is common.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Screenshots of PRManna running locally on my dev box on March 5th, 2009 (note the TipJoy widget): http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jpg http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jp... I have no idea when it changed (and I can't find a screenshot of how it was before), but I submitted a request to HARO about six weeks ago and it looked nothing like it does today, so at some point in the last couple months they launched the current redesign. EDIT: Until very recently, HARO looked like this (url says December 2009): http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.jpg http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.j... Maybe I should sue them...perhaps they somehow saw my screenshots and decided to copy them! :)
  - Confusion 17y ago
    Countersuing is a pretty common and effective method. Big companies do it all the time. Claiming you were actually first with that design completely undermines their case.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    When did PRManna launch? If it was before the redesign of HARO I think you've got him. Send a polite letter back saying: your happy to (and have) remove references to HARO from PRManna that a simple email indicating this was a problem would have been sufficient. Express concern over the need for lawyers that you believe the HARO redesign came after PRManna design was created indicate you feel the matter is now concluded happily for you but that if they wish to continue to pursue "frivolous" claims you believe you have the evidence required to obtain full damages from HARO due to the design copyright infringement that you will be happy to countersue IANAL but that is what I would do. Throw the ball politely back into their court - in the meantime, as a "just in case", speak to a lawyer a build a case. If they reply back aggressively file the suit straight away. It will probably scare him off. (as I said IANAL and I dont know much about this guy; so it might not work). I've employed a roughly similar tactic before against someone with a frivolous claim who thought he could win by flexing muscles. When I filed against him there was about a week of disbelieving silence when he realised I knew where I stood legally. At which point it all stood down (I accepted an contract between us in which he accepted I wasnt infringing on him as he had asserted previously). That's the last piece of advice: probably dont pursue the suit. Because if you give him time to get his head straight then he has more cash to buy sneaky lawyers and build a case. Accept any reasonable offer (preferably a contract like I described because then he cant lick wounds for a month or so then come back and hit you with big guns)
ohashi 17y ago
A good IP lawyer might help: I use http://www.aplegal.com http://www.aplegal.com, Stevan Lieberman there knows what he's doing.
retro 17y ago
Does anyone have any advice on whether he should delete the blog post to avoid any additional potential liability? I'm thinking about how Conan couldn't talk about his contractual discussions with NBC and imagine something similar applies in the case of legal action - but IANAL so I don't know. Good luck with this, Ryan. This really sucks. FWIW, I thought your version was a great approach when I read about it first and significantly distinct from HARO.
noonespecial 17y ago
I read the pdf of the letter: It seems to me that they're using the mention of Shankman's name to get it all started, and the strange New York law for scary padding, but the bulk of their claim is copyright. You need to look through everything and see if there's any word for word content on your site (user contributed or otherwise) that matches Shankman's site. My guess is that they'll cede the look and feel and New York business law wackyness to create a sheen of compromise and then surprise you with some user generated content that appears on both your sites identically and claim copyright infringement. The fog of how user generated stuff ends up on sites may confuse the court enough for them to rule against you just because Shankman's site existed first and theres "identical content". Hell, even his lawyer may not fully grok it. If the evil runs deep, they'll plant such content themselves in the form of submissions. Of course, talk to a lawyer, yadayada, like you haven't already! Don't underestimate them. This looks like a plan to take over your (obviously better) site. I believe that they think they can win.
WillyF 17y ago
Why don't you give Peter a call? I've met him before. He seemed like a nice guy. See if you can resolve this thing without lawyers. Btw, the name of his company makes this whole thing sound like a joke.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Seems a bit late for that, as he's already got his lawyers involved. There's nothing to resolve, other than me just shutting the site down. If he had a problem with me mentioning his name, he could have just emailed me and I would have immediately removed it with no questions and never mentioned it to anyone. The fact that he decided to skip that and just have his attorney try and bully me into shutting down and giving him the domain tells me that he's not interested in working anything out, just fighting competition in the most cowardly way possible.
- shpxnvz 17y ago
  The fact that a C&D landed in his mailbox means the lawyers are already involved.
pkaler 17y ago
How much traction do you have? You may want to consider shutting down the current site and opening a new one without mentioning his name or company. That's what the core of the issue seems to be.
rapatapat 17y ago
posting this problem seems like brilliant PR. to me, you seem pretty safe from repercussion...and you might as well get some press for this. i mean, it was only a matter of time 'til this idea gets spun into a web app. also, i heard an interview with him on mixergy some weeks ago...and he seems like a prick. he was rudely typing away & distracted while andrew warner, the interviewer, was interviewing him. it was only until andrew starting asking him about potential competition that he woke up (obviously self conscious that a better web app can potentially steal his business from under him). i think your app needs work. focus on that. once a better mouse trap comes out, i think reporters would flock to it. he claims his success is about the trust he's built with reporters. trust? he email blasts these requests with full reporter contact info twice a day to millions of people via email! (well, actually he finally started hiding reporter email with an anonymizer earlier this year).
eli 17y ago
I'd probably just toss the letter. If they persist, contact a lawyer. California is one of the few states with a solid anti-SLAPP law, incidentally.
jasonkester 17y ago
The ironic thing about all this is that your application probably drove more business to HARO than the other way around. Personally, I'd never heard of HARO until you mentioned it. Since your site was pretty much empty and I wanted to network with reporters, I went over and signed up for HARO. In the end, they gained a user and you did not.

95 points by ryanwaggoner 17y ago

Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting the actual letter online? I'd like to get more people's thoughts on it.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
I went ahead and posted it anyway.
jrockway 17y ago
You can get in trouble for anything. You probably won't get the lethal injection for this, though.
alain94040 17y ago
Not really. Frivolous harrassment is always an option of course, sure. The advice I give at the Founder Institute is to try not to needlessly annoy or upset the people who are likely to sue you. So while posting the letter would be fun, it would also make it more likely that you get hit with legal fees. Your call.

noelchurchill 17y ago

Sounds like you're website is good enough to be a threat. Keep it up!

oliverkofoed 17y ago

HARO is a good business for Peter Shankman, I just googled it and first link says $800K/year around the start of 2009[1]. The point being that it's probably not so much about him not liking that you mentioned him[2], as the fact that you're stepping onto his turf, and him wanting to defend it. [1] = http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k_business_96405.asp http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k... [2] = You write: "I’m pretty disappointed that Peter decided to be such a jackass about this. If he had bothered to write me an email, I would have gladly removed his name and never mentioned this to anyone."

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Yeah, I know. It's just ridiculous, because he was (maybe still is?) the upstart in this space a couple years ago when he started a mailing list and now he's throwing around C&D notices like he's this great innovator in the space?
- wavesplash 17y ago
  There's nothing wrong with the incumbent defending his turf. I personally think HARO needs a kick in the arse, quality and innovation wise. Bring it on.
  - shpxnvz 17y ago
    IMO there's something wrong with the incumbent defending his turf this way. If they want to out-innovate or out-compete the guy, great, but I personally find it hard to back a business who only aims to win by out-lawyering their rivals.
- angelbob 17y ago
  From his point of view, hey, it might have worked. From our points of view: for the best that it didn't, plus he looks like an ass.
- gcheong 17y ago
  Frivolous C&D aside, I don't quite understand your logic. You seem to be trying to use the idea that he just started a simple mailing list as proof that his approach to the problem he was solving wasn't innovative, and yet you claim he was the inspiration for your product. So what was it about this particular person's approach that inspired you if you didn't think it was innovative?
  - ryanwaggoner 17y ago
    Just the general idea of connecting reporters and sources. That's all. Before HARO, I had never thought about the problem at all. But HARO is hardly a new idea at all, it's just that's where I first encountered it.

earle 17y ago

Once again a good example of "speak to an attorney before posting to Hacker News"... Regardless of what your opinions are here, you need to speak to an attorney who can properly advise you before soapboxing.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
What makes you think I haven't?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- wavesplash 17y ago
  The comment that asked "Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting this letter online..." ;) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1154198 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1154198
dimarco 17y ago
No need for downvoting this comment. The title ends in "What Now?", the OP asks HN if it's legal to post the C&D letter, and no where in the OP's blog does it say "Of course I've contacted my lawyer". earle's advice is the best advice posted yet.

wavesplash 17y ago

Welcome to the wooly world of business my friend. You're threatening an incumbent and he's lashing out. Peter has wrapped up his ego into HARO so expect him to take it personally. Legally there's very little HARO can do except force you to defend a meritless case. I don't believe they have a leg to stand on. You're not violating copyright, or trademark in any form, and he doesn't have an issued patent. The one real takeaway is never launch a business and credit the competitor on the site. It just gives them fuel to create legal hassles for you. Next steps: Get a lawyer. Have your lawyer write a firm letter showing Shankman's lawyer that their claims are meritless and you will vigorously defend the case. Meantime, this is a great PR coup for you. Tech blogs love a little drama, at least certain ones do. Use it for the free PR. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Though I have had to defend against bogus patent and copyright claims before.

rwhitman 17y ago
Yea putting a competitor's name in your materials is probably a bad idea, unless you're Verizon... I'd imagine its easier to stay under their radar if your site doesn't directly come up in google alert results for their name too. BUT, considering that the battle is over the PR business, journalists should be eating this up! I bet a lot of startups wish they could get a high-profile cease and desist hahaha
- dkarl 17y ago
  If you're under your competitors' radar then you're probably under your potential customers' radar, too, right?
- cookiecaper 17y ago
  For the record, Verizon got sued by AT&T for the commercials that made the direct comparison. They just have the money and clout that they can afford to be dragged through what both parties know is a meritless lawsuit.
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    I think the point is being sued worked out very well for Verizon, as it drew more attention to their claims of having a superior network to AT&T. (As you said, if they did not have the money and lawyers to dispute AT&T's claims it may have been a different story.)

jrockway 17y ago

How can you steal someone's ideas? If something is not copyrighted or trademarked or covered by a private contract, you didn't steal anything. (Right?)

shpxnvz 17y ago
So far as I know ideas can't be stolen. Nor can they be protected as intellectual property in the U.S., according to the USPTO: "A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion."

jasonkester 17y ago

Ideas by themself are worthless. It's execution that matters. It's the same story that every one of us running a business faces every time a new competitor shows up. All this guy can do is hope that you don't execute as well as him.

zachware 17y ago

First, let's be honest, you set yourself up for this by referring to Shankman and HARO. That was a mistake. This is typical in a marketplace where people run out of innovative ideas (or never had them in the first place.) I've been around the "sender" side of this type of thing before. Honest truth, you might get outgunned by legal tactics and that sucks. You have a more innovative, more focused product. If you're bankrolled then fight it. If not, tread lightly. Once you used his name you set this up. Either way, they will keep sending ridiculous letters. My advice: -Call an attorney, get some advice. -Setup a backup host and confirm your DNS is separate from your hosting account. (Next up is a C&D to your host) -Send an urgent appeal to everyone on your list, even journalists. You might lose a few followers in the process but if people value your service they will fight for you (particularly nice because your service helps journalists.)

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
First, let's be honest, you set yourself up for this by referring to Shankman and HARO. That was a mistake. Yeah, I know that now. I can't believe how shitty this move is on his part. When I built PRManna, HARO was literally just an AWeber mailing list. I was inspired by the idea of connecting journalists with sources (which is hardly Shankman's original idea) and thought I could do a better job, but I wanted to give him a shout-out and some credit. No good deed goes unpunished.
- wavesplash 17y ago
  I don't understand why it's a 'shitty move on his part'. You started a fight and called the guy out by name. Why wouldn't you expect him to react? How would you feel if instead of offering to partner, I borrowed the concept of your business (after you had spent a few years proving the model) and started a competitor while only crediting you for the inspiration? I bet you'd be wee bit annoyed, no?
  - pyre 17y ago
    The point is that HARO was hardly an original idea (connecting sources with reporters). This is like saying that Burger King inspired my idea for a restaurant, then Burger King sues me for stealing their idea of 'a restaurant that mainly serves burgers.' And WTF is the part about, "oh, by the way we demand that you hand your site over to us?" A C&D letter is to get him to CEASE and DESIST, you can't use it to perform a hostile takeover of a competitor.

mattmaroon 17y ago

Well, I know you're not going to like hearing this, but I'd first remove any mention of his name. Then I'd contact an attorney immediately. HN and blog readers are not sufficient sources of legal advice when facing a lawsuit. (They're more harm than good even when you're not, and now that he's spent legal fees you're not in Kansas anymore).

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
I did both immediately.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Glad to hear. I'd be really curious to hear what ends up happening if you're able to share. Also what your attorney told you.

aresant 17y ago

Using a direct competitors name without permission in a commercial application, where it could be construed as an implied endorsement, is not a good idea.

cj 17y ago
An "about us" page is meant to be more informational than commercial, but I understand your point.

contagionhealth 17y ago

Interesting that Hacker News folks jumped to the qualitative ideas that boil down to: 1. Dude! You built something cool! He's after you! Cool! You might lose it! Not cool. 2. You need a lawyer. My immediate response to the "What Now?" was do some research on this guy. Five minutes of Google searching and Ryan is in a much better position knowing who he's dealing with... Note that knowing about Peter's past legal stuff doesn't change the options: 1. Give up, give in. 2. Stand up and fight. 3. Get a lawyer and decide to do 1 or 2. That said, here are some links that may be of interest. Please note I have no vested interest in either party - just was curious. Wonder if I'll get a C&D too for sharing information: 1. The lawyer representing HARO, who's done some 9-11 related work: http://www.andersonkill.com/attorneysprofile.asp?id=5141 http://www.andersonkill.com/attorneysprofile.asp?id=5141 2. WIRED coverage: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/help-a-reporter-out/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/help-a-reporter-out/ 3. Past domain arbitration for Peter's LLC: http://domain.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1259290.htm http://domain.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1259290.htm 4. MediaBistro coverage of a conflict between Shankman's LLC and a PR agency: http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_agency_filing_lawsuit_against_company_131240.asp http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_...

hristov 17y ago

If you are going to refer to your competitors in public you may want to have a short (15 min) consultation with an IP lawyer. There are issues that arise if you use other people's trademarks. But these can be avoided if you use the proper disclaimers. So yeah speak to a lawyer. Although, at this point it would probably be longer than a 15 minute consultation.

systems 17y ago

I would like to just add that your site (PRManna) does kinda have the same look and feel of Shankman's site (HARO). I don't believe this is a coincidence. And its not like this look and feel is common.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Screenshots of PRManna running locally on my dev box on March 5th, 2009 (note the TipJoy widget): http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jpg http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jp... I have no idea when it changed (and I can't find a screenshot of how it was before), but I submitted a request to HARO about six weeks ago and it looked nothing like it does today, so at some point in the last couple months they launched the current redesign. EDIT: Until very recently, HARO looked like this (url says December 2009): http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.jpg http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.j... Maybe I should sue them...perhaps they somehow saw my screenshots and decided to copy them! :)
- Confusion 17y ago
  Countersuing is a pretty common and effective method. Big companies do it all the time. Claiming you were actually first with that design completely undermines their case.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  When did PRManna launch? If it was before the redesign of HARO I think you've got him. Send a polite letter back saying: your happy to (and have) remove references to HARO from PRManna that a simple email indicating this was a problem would have been sufficient. Express concern over the need for lawyers that you believe the HARO redesign came after PRManna design was created indicate you feel the matter is now concluded happily for you but that if they wish to continue to pursue "frivolous" claims you believe you have the evidence required to obtain full damages from HARO due to the design copyright infringement that you will be happy to countersue IANAL but that is what I would do. Throw the ball politely back into their court - in the meantime, as a "just in case", speak to a lawyer a build a case. If they reply back aggressively file the suit straight away. It will probably scare him off. (as I said IANAL and I dont know much about this guy; so it might not work). I've employed a roughly similar tactic before against someone with a frivolous claim who thought he could win by flexing muscles. When I filed against him there was about a week of disbelieving silence when he realised I knew where I stood legally. At which point it all stood down (I accepted an contract between us in which he accepted I wasnt infringing on him as he had asserted previously). That's the last piece of advice: probably dont pursue the suit. Because if you give him time to get his head straight then he has more cash to buy sneaky lawyers and build a case. Accept any reasonable offer (preferably a contract like I described because then he cant lick wounds for a month or so then come back and hit you with big guns)

ohashi 17y ago

A good IP lawyer might help: I use http://www.aplegal.com http://www.aplegal.com, Stevan Lieberman there knows what he's doing.

retro 17y ago

Does anyone have any advice on whether he should delete the blog post to avoid any additional potential liability? I'm thinking about how Conan couldn't talk about his contractual discussions with NBC and imagine something similar applies in the case of legal action - but IANAL so I don't know. Good luck with this, Ryan. This really sucks. FWIW, I thought your version was a great approach when I read about it first and significantly distinct from HARO.

noonespecial 17y ago

I read the pdf of the letter: It seems to me that they're using the mention of Shankman's name to get it all started, and the strange New York law for scary padding, but the bulk of their claim is copyright. You need to look through everything and see if there's any word for word content on your site (user contributed or otherwise) that matches Shankman's site. My guess is that they'll cede the look and feel and New York business law wackyness to create a sheen of compromise and then surprise you with some user generated content that appears on both your sites identically and claim copyright infringement. The fog of how user generated stuff ends up on sites may confuse the court enough for them to rule against you just because Shankman's site existed first and theres "identical content". Hell, even his lawyer may not fully grok it. If the evil runs deep, they'll plant such content themselves in the form of submissions. Of course, talk to a lawyer, yadayada, like you haven't already! Don't underestimate them. This looks like a plan to take over your (obviously better) site. I believe that they think they can win.

WillyF 17y ago

Why don't you give Peter a call? I've met him before. He seemed like a nice guy. See if you can resolve this thing without lawyers. Btw, the name of his company makes this whole thing sound like a joke.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Seems a bit late for that, as he's already got his lawyers involved. There's nothing to resolve, other than me just shutting the site down. If he had a problem with me mentioning his name, he could have just emailed me and I would have immediately removed it with no questions and never mentioned it to anyone. The fact that he decided to skip that and just have his attorney try and bully me into shutting down and giving him the domain tells me that he's not interested in working anything out, just fighting competition in the most cowardly way possible.
shpxnvz 17y ago
The fact that a C&D landed in his mailbox means the lawyers are already involved.

pkaler 17y ago

How much traction do you have? You may want to consider shutting down the current site and opening a new one without mentioning his name or company. That's what the core of the issue seems to be.

rapatapat 17y ago

posting this problem seems like brilliant PR. to me, you seem pretty safe from repercussion...and you might as well get some press for this. i mean, it was only a matter of time 'til this idea gets spun into a web app. also, i heard an interview with him on mixergy some weeks ago...and he seems like a prick. he was rudely typing away & distracted while andrew warner, the interviewer, was interviewing him. it was only until andrew starting asking him about potential competition that he woke up (obviously self conscious that a better web app can potentially steal his business from under him). i think your app needs work. focus on that. once a better mouse trap comes out, i think reporters would flock to it. he claims his success is about the trust he's built with reporters. trust? he email blasts these requests with full reporter contact info twice a day to millions of people via email! (well, actually he finally started hiding reporter email with an anonymizer earlier this year).

eli 17y ago

I'd probably just toss the letter. If they persist, contact a lawyer. California is one of the few states with a solid anti-SLAPP law, incidentally.

jasonkester 17y ago

The ironic thing about all this is that your application probably drove more business to HARO than the other way around. Personally, I'd never heard of HARO until you mentioned it. Since your site was pretty much empty and I wanted to network with reporters, I went over and signed up for HARO. In the end, they gained a user and you did not.