14 ms·

Verizon Workers Strike on East Coast After Deadline Passes

107 points by Amorymeltzer 11y ago

blisterpeanuts 11y ago
"The unions also procured a letter from 14 mayors that criticized the company for not making its fiber optic network available to enough of their residents, and from 20 United States senators urging Verizon to act as a “responsible corporate citizen” and negotiate fairly with its workers." Interesting; so the union's going on strike not only to maintain their pension levels, but also to help underserved communities. Noble of them. But it would be nobler still if they offered concessions of pay and benefit cuts in exchange for Verizon making its fiber available to more neighborhoods. Obviously it's just a ploy to get the voters on their side, but they're omitting the detail that the voters are going to end up paying higher for their phone and data service as a result.
- USANEEDSHELP 11y ago
  The union is doing what it is supposed to do. Fight for the workers it represents. The ability to negotiate with Verizon is important and critical to ensure that each worker gets a fair wage, regardless of the message. These are hardworking men and woman who need a fair wage and benefits. I know several folks who work for Verizon & support them and hope they get what they need to make it in this world. Verizon has had years to install fiber in all of its markets. Instead, they took the money & gave it to shareholders & management. Incarnations of Verizon (MA-BELL) have had protections from the government for many many years. They have neglected their infrastructure for years, but their rates keep going up and up! There's no ploy. Verizon customers always pay because the prices keep rising regardless of what the union is doing. What the USA really needs is to shutdown these for profit companies that provide our voice/IP infrastructure. We need have a "new-deal" type of deployment, where every state in the country should have fiber on every pole. This can be done, only if we remove the for-profit mindset. Once this is done, anybody can sell services on those fiber lines (streaming movies, cloud base storage etc... VOIP). Enough with the bullshit, the current ISP/Voice/Video in the USA is shit and we need to remove the stranglehold these companies have in our states and government (COMCAST, VERIZON, AT&T, Time Warner etc...). Their is not competition in the USA and it's bullshit. Peace. Peace.
- Retric 11y ago
  You can't pass on 100% of worker wage increase to customers without losing net revenue. So, a lot of this money comes from management and stock owners. PS: It's a question of price / demand curves. Raising prices costs customers which reduces profits.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    But by the same logic, you can't pass on 100% of profit to the workers without losing spending flexibility and the ability to reinvest in the company's infrastructure and future prosperity. No one complains that Google Fiber doesn't serve every neighborhood in the cities where it is established. Google negotiated that deal with the cities, and if a city refuses to let them target only specific, profitable neighborhoods, they simply take that city off the list. In my opinion, this whole situation is emblematic of why American digital infrastructure is slow and behind the times, because of antiquated and senseless rules. I don't think Verizon is some kind of nice company; they're reprehensible at times and frankly I feel sorry for the people working there and I kind of understand their anger. But, business is business.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      A failure to serve poor neighborhoods actually is a criticism people have of Google Fiber (search for "google fiber digital divide" for examples), and it's something they attempt to combat by providing free service to libraries, community centers, and low-income housing in some places. I do think that trying to shame or regulate companies into serving unprofitable areas is the wrong way to go about it. If it's that important, then subsidize service in those areas so it's actually profitable. But Americans seem to hate obvious subsidies, and prefer to make them weird and convoluted instead.
      - Retric 11y ago
        The problem is it is generally profitable, just less profitable. Worse we are subsidizing them, but if they finish the subsides end and none of the subsides where directly tied to actually deploying new fiber to every home. PS: You get a lot of very different numbers out there. But remember at 10 acres per house you get 64 houses per square mile and people tend to clump near roads and in towns. http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rural-fiber-really-cost.html http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rur... Sure, there are a few places where it's still unprofitable, but we can debate the last 1/2th of a percent of homes when you get close to 99%.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  Don't forget that in order to make the fiber optic network available to more residents, more work has to be done on the ground and up the poles, and some of that work will be done by unionized workers. Nobility has little to do with it. The complaint is that the company is refusing to pay for work that might be done by union-represented employees. The fact that the work would also benefit the paying customers is just poking the other thumb in the other eye, too. When the interests of both your customers and your employees are aligned behind something, I would think that you might have an interest in doing it, whatever it may be.
bdavisx 11y ago
Did I read the 2014 annual report correctly and they had $20+ billion in profit? I think they can afford to keep the pension plan the way it is.
- bko 11y ago
  Pensions are outdated and are bad for both workers and employers. The idea that you get a guaranteed payout (defined benefit) creates conflicts when today's managers have to make decisions that affect the entire company over the next few decades. Considering that few managers believe that they will be in charge at the time the pension benefit are due, they are incentivized to push costs into the future through bloated pensions.The employee is then stuck holding the credit risk of their employer from long ago. A much better system is a defined contribution, in which the employer makes a contribution to a retirement fund for the employee. The employee then has sole proprietorship of the funds, regardless what happens to the company.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    Yes but on the other hand: twenty billion united states fiat dollars worth of profit.
    - minikites 11y ago
      What's a fiat dollar?
      - logfromblammo 11y ago
        Something that only has value because you can buy things with it. Contrast with gold-backed dollar or silver-backed dollar, which have value because they may be redeemed for a fixed quantity of a commodity good.
      - herge 11y ago
        It's money you can use to pay your taxes, and who's value doesn't crash every 3 weeks.
ones_and_zeros 11y ago
Ah yes, the ills of working collectively for the generally anti-union HN crowd to see.
- cylinder 11y ago
  White collar unions are quite common outside the US, too. The thought never even seems to cross the minds of professionals in the US, though.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    US white collar culture works better with associations than unions. Arguably, its a better solution as union corruption is a big problem, especially in the public sector, and associations solve this by being less powerful entities while still being effective for their member's goals. Many other countries either have associations or simply join US associations and re-distribute their certification materials locally and promote their research and policies locally. I think its pretty obvious that unions solve a specific problem that is more in tune with the earlier industrial era than today. The rise of associations in the past 40-50 years isn't a coincidence. Unions simply do not work well outside of very specific industries. This trend works internationally too. Associations aren't a US thing anymore.
    - cylinder 11y ago
      Union, association, enterprise agreement ... it doesn't matter to me what it's called, but I think there should be collective bargaining and written agreements. I don't want an adversarial approach that sucks the life out of the company.
  - Bluestrike2 11y ago
    It depends on the type of white collar job. Collective bargaining, in general, assumes a degree of fungibility that doesn't exist with all white collar positions. Two different managers, for instance, can have profoundly different consequences on a company's bottom line. Treating them as equal in that situation is hard to justify, to the company and the workers alike. That's one of the reasons private-sector unions have had so much trouble trying to unionize professionals even though they've been playing up their efforts for years now.
PaulHoule 11y ago
It's no coincidence that Verizon announced FiOS expansion in Boston today. http://stopthecap.com/2016/04/12/breaking-news-waiting-forever-boston-finally-getting-verizon-fios/ http://stopthecap.com/2016/04/12/breaking-news-waiting-forev...
tsunamifury 11y ago
Good. If only tech workers had the spine to do the same after finding out their CEOs had conspired to suppress their wages and targeted those who wanted to leave...
- mtgx 11y ago
  Probably because they are still paid well enough to "bother" going out and protesting. Most Verizon employees are probably paid closer to min wage.
  - whatok 11y ago
    The article says that 99% of the people striking are wireline employees; not wireless. They're more than likely making well over minimum wage.
  - function_seven 11y ago
    > Most Verizon employees are probably paid closer to min wage. You have a misconception here. The average Verizon wireline employee is making more than $70,000 a year. Not minimum wage or even close.
    - kspaans 11y ago
      What about the median wage of Verizon employees?
      - whatok 11y ago
        If you combine wireline and wireless you would get the same skewed statistic as combining Apple Store and corporate employees.
        spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        You need to split it between the blue collar side ie Line men and the M&P (managerial and professional) grades.
known 11y ago
1. Impose tax on corporate revenues, not profits 2. Regulate market capitalization of corporations
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
Excellent! Strikes are the only way to punish intransigent, anti-worker management practices. Solidarity forever!
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
droopybuns 11y ago
If more technical workers were exposed to the risk of electrocution, ladder death and poison gas in cramped spaces, I'm sure they would unionize too. Doesn't make much sense otherwise.
johnm1019 11y ago
> Verizon officials have assured wireline customers that they will suffer no service disruption during the strike, saying the company has spent months training unaffected workers, primarily supervisors, to take over the duties of their unionized colleagues. > “On Day 1 our first priority is to maintain the customer base we have — answer the phones, surveil the network, work repairs — and we’re fully staffed to do that,”..... So I guess today is a great day to call tech support with your problems, you'll get a manager!
- muraiki 11y ago
  I'm really curious as to what long term effect this will have on managers' perception of their employees, now that they will have actual experience with what it's like to be one of their subordinates.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  Eventually. I doubt they have as many managers.
Overtonwindow 11y ago
Honestly I have very little sympathy for them. They did this in 2012 of the same issues, and they're doing it again. I think they've got a really good job and a great compensation package. There are many others in the technology industry that can't even get a fraction of that.
- dionidium 11y ago
  I wouldn't look to technology workers for a lesson in how to demand more of the profits your work generates http://www.businessinsider.com/top-tech-companies-revenue-per-employee-2015-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/top-tech-companies-revenue-pe...

107 points by Amorymeltzer 11y ago

"The unions also procured a letter from 14 mayors that criticized the company for not making its fiber optic network available to enough of their residents, and from 20 United States senators urging Verizon to act as a “responsible corporate citizen” and negotiate fairly with its workers." Interesting; so the union's going on strike not only to maintain their pension levels, but also to help underserved communities. Noble of them. But it would be nobler still if they offered concessions of pay and benefit cuts in exchange for Verizon making its fiber available to more neighborhoods. Obviously it's just a ploy to get the voters on their side, but they're omitting the detail that the voters are going to end up paying higher for their phone and data service as a result.

USANEEDSHELP 11y ago
The union is doing what it is supposed to do. Fight for the workers it represents. The ability to negotiate with Verizon is important and critical to ensure that each worker gets a fair wage, regardless of the message. These are hardworking men and woman who need a fair wage and benefits. I know several folks who work for Verizon & support them and hope they get what they need to make it in this world. Verizon has had years to install fiber in all of its markets. Instead, they took the money & gave it to shareholders & management. Incarnations of Verizon (MA-BELL) have had protections from the government for many many years. They have neglected their infrastructure for years, but their rates keep going up and up! There's no ploy. Verizon customers always pay because the prices keep rising regardless of what the union is doing. What the USA really needs is to shutdown these for profit companies that provide our voice/IP infrastructure. We need have a "new-deal" type of deployment, where every state in the country should have fiber on every pole. This can be done, only if we remove the for-profit mindset. Once this is done, anybody can sell services on those fiber lines (streaming movies, cloud base storage etc... VOIP). Enough with the bullshit, the current ISP/Voice/Video in the USA is shit and we need to remove the stranglehold these companies have in our states and government (COMCAST, VERIZON, AT&T, Time Warner etc...). Their is not competition in the USA and it's bullshit. Peace. Peace.
Retric 11y ago
You can't pass on 100% of worker wage increase to customers without losing net revenue. So, a lot of this money comes from management and stock owners. PS: It's a question of price / demand curves. Raising prices costs customers which reduces profits.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  But by the same logic, you can't pass on 100% of profit to the workers without losing spending flexibility and the ability to reinvest in the company's infrastructure and future prosperity. No one complains that Google Fiber doesn't serve every neighborhood in the cities where it is established. Google negotiated that deal with the cities, and if a city refuses to let them target only specific, profitable neighborhoods, they simply take that city off the list. In my opinion, this whole situation is emblematic of why American digital infrastructure is slow and behind the times, because of antiquated and senseless rules. I don't think Verizon is some kind of nice company; they're reprehensible at times and frankly I feel sorry for the people working there and I kind of understand their anger. But, business is business.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    A failure to serve poor neighborhoods actually is a criticism people have of Google Fiber (search for "google fiber digital divide" for examples), and it's something they attempt to combat by providing free service to libraries, community centers, and low-income housing in some places. I do think that trying to shame or regulate companies into serving unprofitable areas is the wrong way to go about it. If it's that important, then subsidize service in those areas so it's actually profitable. But Americans seem to hate obvious subsidies, and prefer to make them weird and convoluted instead.
    - Retric 11y ago
      The problem is it is generally profitable, just less profitable. Worse we are subsidizing them, but if they finish the subsides end and none of the subsides where directly tied to actually deploying new fiber to every home. PS: You get a lot of very different numbers out there. But remember at 10 acres per house you get 64 houses per square mile and people tend to clump near roads and in towns. http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rural-fiber-really-cost.html http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rur... Sure, there are a few places where it's still unprofitable, but we can debate the last 1/2th of a percent of homes when you get close to 99%.
logfromblammo 11y ago
Don't forget that in order to make the fiber optic network available to more residents, more work has to be done on the ground and up the poles, and some of that work will be done by unionized workers. Nobility has little to do with it. The complaint is that the company is refusing to pay for work that might be done by union-represented employees. The fact that the work would also benefit the paying customers is just poking the other thumb in the other eye, too. When the interests of both your customers and your employees are aligned behind something, I would think that you might have an interest in doing it, whatever it may be.

bdavisx 11y ago

Did I read the 2014 annual report correctly and they had $20+ billion in profit? I think they can afford to keep the pension plan the way it is.

bko 11y ago
Pensions are outdated and are bad for both workers and employers. The idea that you get a guaranteed payout (defined benefit) creates conflicts when today's managers have to make decisions that affect the entire company over the next few decades. Considering that few managers believe that they will be in charge at the time the pension benefit are due, they are incentivized to push costs into the future through bloated pensions.The employee is then stuck holding the credit risk of their employer from long ago. A much better system is a defined contribution, in which the employer makes a contribution to a retirement fund for the employee. The employee then has sole proprietorship of the funds, regardless what happens to the company.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Yes but on the other hand: twenty billion united states fiat dollars worth of profit.
  - minikites 11y ago
    What's a fiat dollar?
    - logfromblammo 11y ago
      Something that only has value because you can buy things with it. Contrast with gold-backed dollar or silver-backed dollar, which have value because they may be redeemed for a fixed quantity of a commodity good.
    - herge 11y ago
      It's money you can use to pay your taxes, and who's value doesn't crash every 3 weeks.

ones_and_zeros 11y ago

Ah yes, the ills of working collectively for the generally anti-union HN crowd to see.

cylinder 11y ago
White collar unions are quite common outside the US, too. The thought never even seems to cross the minds of professionals in the US, though.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  US white collar culture works better with associations than unions. Arguably, its a better solution as union corruption is a big problem, especially in the public sector, and associations solve this by being less powerful entities while still being effective for their member's goals. Many other countries either have associations or simply join US associations and re-distribute their certification materials locally and promote their research and policies locally. I think its pretty obvious that unions solve a specific problem that is more in tune with the earlier industrial era than today. The rise of associations in the past 40-50 years isn't a coincidence. Unions simply do not work well outside of very specific industries. This trend works internationally too. Associations aren't a US thing anymore.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    Union, association, enterprise agreement ... it doesn't matter to me what it's called, but I think there should be collective bargaining and written agreements. I don't want an adversarial approach that sucks the life out of the company.
- Bluestrike2 11y ago
  It depends on the type of white collar job. Collective bargaining, in general, assumes a degree of fungibility that doesn't exist with all white collar positions. Two different managers, for instance, can have profoundly different consequences on a company's bottom line. Treating them as equal in that situation is hard to justify, to the company and the workers alike. That's one of the reasons private-sector unions have had so much trouble trying to unionize professionals even though they've been playing up their efforts for years now.

PaulHoule 11y ago

It's no coincidence that Verizon announced FiOS expansion in Boston today. http://stopthecap.com/2016/04/12/breaking-news-waiting-forever-boston-finally-getting-verizon-fios/ http://stopthecap.com/2016/04/12/breaking-news-waiting-forev...

tsunamifury 11y ago

Good. If only tech workers had the spine to do the same after finding out their CEOs had conspired to suppress their wages and targeted those who wanted to leave...

mtgx 11y ago
Probably because they are still paid well enough to "bother" going out and protesting. Most Verizon employees are probably paid closer to min wage.
- whatok 11y ago
  The article says that 99% of the people striking are wireline employees; not wireless. They're more than likely making well over minimum wage.
- function_seven 11y ago
  > Most Verizon employees are probably paid closer to min wage. You have a misconception here. The average Verizon wireline employee is making more than $70,000 a year. Not minimum wage or even close.
  - kspaans 11y ago
    What about the median wage of Verizon employees?
    - whatok 11y ago
      If you combine wireline and wireless you would get the same skewed statistic as combining Apple Store and corporate employees.
      - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        You need to split it between the blue collar side ie Line men and the M&P (managerial and professional) grades.

known 11y ago

1. Impose tax on corporate revenues, not profits 2. Regulate market capitalization of corporations

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

Excellent! Strikes are the only way to punish intransigent, anti-worker management practices. Solidarity forever!

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

droopybuns 11y ago

If more technical workers were exposed to the risk of electrocution, ladder death and poison gas in cramped spaces, I'm sure they would unionize too. Doesn't make much sense otherwise.

johnm1019 11y ago

> Verizon officials have assured wireline customers that they will suffer no service disruption during the strike, saying the company has spent months training unaffected workers, primarily supervisors, to take over the duties of their unionized colleagues. > “On Day 1 our first priority is to maintain the customer base we have — answer the phones, surveil the network, work repairs — and we’re fully staffed to do that,”..... So I guess today is a great day to call tech support with your problems, you'll get a manager!

muraiki 11y ago
I'm really curious as to what long term effect this will have on managers' perception of their employees, now that they will have actual experience with what it's like to be one of their subordinates.
paulddraper 11y ago
Eventually. I doubt they have as many managers.

Overtonwindow 11y ago

Honestly I have very little sympathy for them. They did this in 2012 of the same issues, and they're doing it again. I think they've got a really good job and a great compensation package. There are many others in the technology industry that can't even get a fraction of that.

dionidium 11y ago
I wouldn't look to technology workers for a lesson in how to demand more of the profits your work generates http://www.businessinsider.com/top-tech-companies-revenue-per-employee-2015-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/top-tech-companies-revenue-pe...