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Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks
- 6stringmerc 11y agoFull interview over at Rolling Stone: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/steve-miller-this-whole-industry-is-f--kin-gangsters-and-crooks-20160411 http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/steve-miller-this... Link provided originally has good back-story. Either should work fine though. Quite a read.
- return0 11y agoTitle says "This whole fucking industry sucks”, while he said "This whole industry fucking sucks”. Subtle fucking differences.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoOkay, I'll edit it for accuracy because you took the time to point it out. Either sentiment applies in my perspective so the transcription was unintnetional.
- return0 11y agobut you'll ruin my wordplay
- 6stringmerc 11y agoThe life of a copy editor in the digital age is one rife with peril, so it seems.
- igravious 11y agoIn the digital age wouldn't the life of a copy editor be rife with perl?
- digitalneal 11y agoAlright, you and you. Out of the pool.
- johan_larson 11y agoThe gene pool? For wordplay beyond the call of duty? Harsh crowd.
- bantunes 11y agoMiles Davis on Steve Miller: “Steve Miller didn’t have his shit going for him, so I’m pissed because I got to open for this non-playing motherfucker just because he had one or two sorry-ass records out. So I would come late and he would have to go on first and then when we got there, we smoked the motherfucking place, and everybody dug it.” http://www.openculture.com/2015/05/miles-davis-opens-for-neil-young-and-the-steve-miller-band-1970.html http://www.openculture.com/2015/05/miles-davis-opens-for-nei...
- yolesaber 11y agoI mean, to be fair, Steve Miller is like the blandest of bland dad rock. And Miles Davis is literally the coolest person who ever lived.
- thomnottom 11y agoTo be fair, Miles Davis regularly beat his wives...
- yolesaber 11y agoUpvoted because you are right. Sometimes we let the work and creative persona of an artist overshadow their flaws. While I still deeply respect Davis the musician (not that he'd care what some white guy thinks), how he treated some of his wives was disgusting.
- thomnottom 11y agoAnd yes, I said that as someone who absolutely loves Miles Davis the musician.
- mercurial 11y agoHe didn't treat people very well in general. You could say he was an unpleasant individual. Of course, drug and alcohol abuse didn't help.
- andreis_ 11y ago
- michaelwww 11y agoIn the "Gentle and Soft: The Story of the Blue Jean Committee" mockumentary, Kenny Loggins and the show and get their digs in at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in ‘Documentary Now!’ by Lorne Michaels, Fred Armisen And Bill Hader. In the show, Loggins complains about the one album wonder Blue Jeans Committee that you can be working in the business for 30 years and have many hits and never even get invited to the ceremony (which describes Loggins.)
- carsongross 11y agoI know it's trite to say, but it is probably good to be reminded how often people held up as being successful are, often, deeply unhappy. Michael Jordan is another canonical example. To live these lives of unparalleled, almost supernatural greatness, and then end up embittered... The stoics did nothing wrong. EDIT: to clarify, I'm not dismissing Miller's critique at all, I'm noting that someone living, literally, a rock star life, ends up in a deeply inhumane and, potentially, embittering environment.
- joslin01 11y agoHow does this apply to the music industry sucking? I didn't take this as Steve Miller being an unhappy person though you are right, many successful people do end up the road down to depression -- Elvis being another great example.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y agoI doubt he's an unhappy person - he's unhappy with the power structure of the industry he works in. Not least he's unhappy because R&RHOF tried to charge him $10k per member to include his band in the ceremony. It shouldn't be hard to understand the difference.
- draw_down 11y agoThat's a shitty, smarmy dismissal of what he's trying to say and that he had the stones to say it. Forget about him, what about all the artists the industry has exploited who didn't end up famous and successful? The stoics would have thought the music industry is terrible. Because it is.
- carsongross 11y agoI am not dismissing him at all. I agree entirely that he is very brave for having said this. I'm simply noting that even a famous rock star, living a literally rock star life, ends up in a horrible environment.
- alanwatts 11y ago
- throw7 11y agoSteve, you signed on the dotted line. Have some cheese.
- dudifordMann 11y agoI always thought the age of the internet, especially with modern bandwidths, could be the end of large labels for the music industry (or publishing houses for literature). I understand (to a naive degree) that the labels establish large networks, and complex licensing with public avenues like the radio or concert halls. It is also interesting that that most self published artists get the semi-derogatory term of "Indie-artist", and that there may even be a public opinion which has been molded into expecting a "quality filter" through labels. The question I always come to is how big can you get without a label? and will there ever be a day when artists have full creative control of their craft? This would mean that the artist would need to value and understand business practices, distribution methods, contracting, etc. [edit] and the artists that do appreciate this seem to start labels (see epitaph records or Bad Boy Entertainment)
- matchagaucho 11y agoThe "Super Artist" level of entertainment requires an army to support marketing, legal issues, mechanical licensing, PR, tours, accountants, video production, publishing... Only the big labels are prepared to provide this support.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoTraditionally yes, but the newer Artist-Management dynamic, most successful in Taylor Swift with Big Machine, but also well-respected in the form of Q Prime Management, can do most of those services and retain rights for artists that labels would traditionally take for themselves (e.g. publishing rights, which Q Prime tells their artists to retain). You're definitely not wrong. I think there are cracks in the system though.
- dudifordMann 11y agoGreat point, even if an artist had 'n' skilled people to facilitate those roles and produce the needed deliverables, what would happen to those people when the artist becomes unpopular? so even if there is no way around having these established entities for the purpose of essentially allowing the artist to create, then is it a matter of reform? which really means not signing to big labels in the hopes that if enough artists do the same that the face of the industry changes? [grammar edit]
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y agoSome people write songs about the music industry sucking. Hotel California is one (I bet). It would be fun to study this idea. Oh, another one could be Don't Download this Song by Weird Al. Edit: I wonder if Mr. Miller ever tried something like that.
- marincounty 11y agoWhen I was in college, I took my girlfriend on a summer vacation. We were both broke, so we decided to camp out along the CA coast. My car was on its last days, and the transmission didn't feel right, but we wanted that vacation. She was a great sport, as I tried to make it work. It seemed like nothing was working as I planned, except the sight of her in that bikini. I had a bunch of camping equipment, and thought, "Ahh--this will be a breeze. I'll just pitch a tent when the sun goes down. First night--ticket. (The state parks, private parks are completely filled months in advance by smart travelers. I had no idea they were so popular.) Second night--I ended up in Hotel California. I believe in Santa Barbara. The hotel was horrid, but it looked nice from the outside. There she was this beautiful, innocent blond, sitting on the edge of the bed. She said, "Well--at least we won't get hassled by the cops?". I went to get dinner, and even bought a candle. This was our first vacation together, and nothing worked out. Out of feeling bad about the room, I told her a lie. A lie over Chinese food, and the candle. I told her this is where the musicians stayed when they wrote that song--Hotel California. The look on her face was priceless. I was in too deep, and couldn't tell her the truth. I remember limping my Chevy back home. I still can't get her out of my mind though. I remember she wore a bikini, and wondered why people were looking. Yes--she was that innocent. We went shopping, and I bought her a one piece bathing suit. I told her this is the fashion here. I lied again. I have no idea what she saw in me.
- uptownfunk 11y agoYou've lived a good life, mate.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y agoDude, you left her at the Hotel California so you could escape? I can see the conversation now in that Hotel in Santa Barbara: Clerk: Sorry. You can never leave. You: Can't you take the blond? Clerk: Only if you buy her a one piece. You: Which piece? She already has two. Clerk: A one piece, it's the style around here. You: Ok ok... Apropos of nothing, another song about the music industry sucking is Man of Constant Sorrow by the Soggy Bottom Boys. Edit: The people modding you down are just jealous.
- baldfat 11y agoI owned a SMALL Record Label and Studio. I was (still?) good at picking out talent in bands. The Whole Industry Sucks I had two bands that ended up on Major Labels and Toured the World. I met a kid on the street wearing one of my Bands shirts and struck up a conversation. They still love the band 10 years later. These guys per person made at the TOP $7,000 in profit after expenses were paid. One band did a KickStarter and pulled in $40,000. It was their biggest pay day ever. I knwo a band (Zao) who has the a Label's (Solid State) biggest selling album ever and the band never saw a dime. PS That band was drama and the drummer was the biggest jerk ever BUT they still deserved to get paid.
- at-fates-hands 11y agoI used to work in a record shop and found out first hand how much promotion a band needs just to sell a few CD's. I can't tell you how many insanely good bands died because either the label didn't promote them, or they just ran out of cash and quit. The only problem I see nowadays is there's virtually no vetting process. It used to be the good bands would eventually rise to the top and the shitty garage bands would be relegated to small venues. Today, there's such an over saturation of music. Artists have thousands of avenues to get their music out. As a huge music fan, how do I sort through all the noise to find a truly good band, and not some guy programming the guitars, drums tracks and bass and then does the vocals himself? Today, I just stick with a small handful of bands that I can support and just keep an eye out for new bands. There's just way too much noise to signal ratio for me to sit and search for hours on end to find one decent band, only to find out they broke up five years ago.
- slouch 11y agoFor me, it's still primarily http://last.fm/ http://last.fm/ 's similar artist feature.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Declanomous 11y ago
- dworin 11y agoFrom the article: "If the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame wants to be taken seriously, they need to put their books out in the public. They need to fucking become transparent" Am I missing some deeper story? They have an 82 page form 990 on their own website. Most non-profits don't disclose anywhere near as much, and few post it on their own site. https://rockhall.com/media/assets/files/form990.pdf https://rockhall.com/media/assets/files/form990.pdf
- 6stringmerc 11y agoInteresting. I took a quick look and can't say I'm qualified to render any real insight. It is interesting to see they claim $11M of expenses on $6M of revenue for the primary operation.
- typetypetype 11y agoHe was also pissed because they wanted to charge him $10k per ticket to the event for his bandmates: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/09/arts/music/after-his-induction-steve-miller-rips-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/09/arts/music/after-his-induc...
- koolba 11y agoHa! That sounds like certain for-profit conferences. "You've been selected a speaker for our super elite conference! You can invite your friends to attend for the paltry sum of $XYZ. Oh and it'll also cost you $ABC..."
- beachstartup 11y agothis happens in any industry run by gatekeepers. see: hollywood, video games, venture backed technology startups, fashion. all these verticals are run by assholes and basically suck unless you become a successful indie outfit. p.s. it doesn't surprise me the hall of fame was started by a bunch of lawyers and people from rolling stone, a magazine with basically zero journalistic integrity, at best.
- firasd 11y agoThe other similarity across the industries you mention is that people want to participate in them for 'passion', in a way they wouldn't participate in, say, accounting.
- beachstartup 11y agoyeah, psychopaths can spot an easy mark from a mile away.
- joshka 11y agoblog spam of http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/steve-miller-this-whole-industry-is-f--kin-gangsters-and-crooks-20160411 http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/steve-miller-this...
- dang 11y agoYes. We changed the URL to that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11480803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11480803.
- cm2012 11y agoOne aspect of this is really funny to me - my friend and I busked in NYC in the summer after high school, and each made roughly $2500 a month until we stopped to go to college. That seems to be more than most actual bands make!
- cylinder 11y agoGet closer to the money.
- dang 11y agoUrl changed from http://www.stereogum.com/1870768/steve-miller-expands-on-rock-hall-criticism-everybody-is-kind-of-a-dick-this-whole-industry-fucking-sucks/wheres-the-beef/ http://www.stereogum.com/1870768/steve-miller-expands-on-roc..., which points to this.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- mathattack 11y agoOne anecdote [0] that show his financial astuteness is that he once split a song so that he could get double the royalties. I'm a huge Steve Miller fan - his career spanned pop, blues, psychedelic and folk, and his bands have included great talent. But the recording game moved on. The money in music is now in performance. And he's still touring [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(musician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_(musician) [1] http://www.stevemillerband.com/tour.html http://www.stevemillerband.com/tour.html
- a_thro_away 11y agoSteve Miller's success came when I was a teen. No matter how hard I worked, I could afford only a little piece of our shared culture as albums were monopoly priced; someone was getting rich. To add, where I lived we could not pick up much rock music on the radio, and only later were very rare concerts (but they were good and inexpensive; Styx for example). I hear echoes of all this in his statements.
- jar3624 11y agoI really hope Ethereum takes off. I think this will go a long way of cutting out the middle men between the customer and "content maker". I even hear all the code that runs on Ethereum is open source which makes it even more transparent/turstworthy. Its the cure to capitalism ! hopefully See http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/imogen-heap-shows-how-music-smart-contracts-work-using-ethereum-1522331 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/imogen-heap-shows-how-music-smart-c...
- mattbeckman 11y agoJust what I was thinking. It seems like the music industry could be a great use-case. Direct link to the Imogen Heap alpha: https://alpha.ujomusic.com/#/imogen_heap/tiny_human/tiny_human https://alpha.ujomusic.com/#/imogen_heap/tiny_human/tiny_hum...
- ancientworldnow 11y agoIt's not a money problem, it's a marketing one. I work alongside the music industry in the code world (won a VMA along the way) and see how labels really work. The problem isn't so much about album sales and streaming money going straight to the creator (though not enough does by a long shot) but rather that if you're not signed to a label and have access to their marketing engine then no one will ever hear your music. There are plenty of places like bandcamp where you can find great music and buy it directly from the artist with them taking most of the cut, but the numbers of people buying are so low it doesn't matter. With labels, I've literally watched them take a nobody band and decide they're going to be the next thing. They finish their album, label foots the bill for a big music video, PR team call$ pitchfork or world star or whatever site is genre appropriate, band gets a frontpage feature, radio play start$, and next thing you know album sales are way up, tour tickets are sold out and label made bank. The problem is discovery and curation and ethereum doesn't fix that.
- _AllisonMobley 11y ago"If you're not signed to a label and have access to their marketing engine then no one will ever hear your music" Unless you can get popular on youtube.
- mgirdley 11y agoIrony abounds here. Steve's band gets paid six figures a year each and flies coach to each gig. Steve flies in on a private jet and takes home multiple millions each year.
- duderific 11y agoI hear what you're saying about the irony, but I'm sure Steve's band doesn't mind. The number of musician gigs that pay six figures is EXTREMELY limited.
- api 11y agoMost artists know next to nothing about business, which makes them prey to those who do. I think this explains why the industry is so horribly exploitative.
- my_opic_farseer 11y agoHe's just describing the general tone and state of the US. It's always been crooked. The US is crooked to its core. They've been singing that tune for over a century. People who believe otherwise just buy into their hustle.
- ivanca 11y agoMinistry (synth pop/industrial/Alternative metal) frontman Al Jordison in his song "gold diggers": "You know, they say it takes a whole pack of wolves to take down a moose, cuz one-on-one, that moose would smack them down. It’s like being in the music business — you got your managers, your ex-managers, your ex-bandmates, your ex-labels, your ex-wives, your lawyers, your tax attorneys … hell, that sound more like a pack of hyenas to me. You know, I was once told by an ex-manager, “Son, you’re worth more dead than alive. Cuz when you’re dead, we can sell you off in pieces.” That’s the way it works around here. You don’t believe me? Why don’t you try asking Jim Morrison, or Jimi Hendrix, or Janis Joplin, or Kurt Cobain, or Amy Winehouse? I’m pretty sure they’re gonna take my side of the story. Sometimes I think they’re the lucky ones. They don’t have to deal with these douchebags"
- godgod 11y agoSteve Miller once gave me a $50.00 tip. He's the man!
- Animats 11y agoMusicians getting rich was a brief phenomenon. Historically, musicians ranked below bartenders. Making phonograph records was a process with expensive tooling, manufacturing, and distribution costs. Radio was an industry with limited airtime and a small number of stations. These factors created an industry with few songs produced in large numbers, resulting in the "rock star" industry. That's over. Through heavy promotion, there are still stars, but they have a smaller fraction of overall plays and the margins are lower. And we haven't even had much AI-generated music yet. That has to be coming soon. When a Vocaloid learns your job, what are you going to do?
- proksoup 11y agoHa, you had me til the AI part. Personally I figure the musicians will have the last jobs, along with designers. Really artists generally speaking will be the most difficult AI, no?
- stigi 11y agoModern pop music follows strict patterns. I have little doubt that much of what's playing in the top 40 can be synthesized or already is :P All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoThe only problem though with using a strict pattern system is that it will, I believe, more than likely miss the nuances which a brilliant songwriter can weave into a structure. The song might be 90% as good, which makes a lot of difference I think. Max Martin is an absolute genius in this regard, and his years of success reflect that. He's also a musician, though he is truly making his living as a songwriter/producer. Here's a great break-down of "Shake It Off" from a songwriting perspective, which kind of reveals the simplicity is deceptive in some ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8
- 11y ago
- intrasight 11y agoHistorically, artists were long dead before their work was recognized and valued.
- cafard 11y agoNot really. Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mahler, all were were recognized and valued. They didn't make the kind of money that some of the really fortunate musicians of the mid 20th Century did, true.
- JustSomeNobody 11y agoTell us how you really feel Steve Miller. Seriously, that was awesome. I'm glad he can afford to say those things. It's a shame more can't otherwise there might just be change.
- kin 11y agoAnyone watch Vinyl on HBO? I know it's Hollywood but I know Mick Jagger is basing a lot of it on his experiences. To be honest aside from the crime, it all seems totally believable.
- AnthonyNagid 11y agoSomething that I don't think is addressed enough is how a well practiced and versatile musician can make a living through their immediate community. It could still involve secondary income from the music industry as supplement to a healthy primary income provided by the synergy between them and their community. I can elaborate but I'll wait to see if anyone else finds this interesting.
- nickknw 11y ago> healthy primary income provided by the synergy between them and their community Definitely interested in this.
- AnthonyNagid 11y agoAs a pianist the key here would be musical versatility, there is a lot of work but it is spread across musical domains. The musical skills might include reading literacy, proficiency in improvisational idioms and the ability to teach these things. The more difficult realm might be establishing a working band of professionals, per individual the professional attitude would be worth more than sheer musical skill. Professionaly minded people working together can build skills that will eventually surpass what an individual can bring alone. Networking is important, there's lots of ways to engage with your immediate community and it has always helped me to reach across as many professional aisles as I can. How many high functioning professional musicians do you think the average person knows? You should be one of them for the people close to you. EDIT: I'd like to add venue versatility. Most discussion seems to be around entertainment venues but what about educational, accompaniment, theathrical, ceremonial, religious (I do not personally partake in this).
- duderific 11y agoAs something like a solo pianist, I would say you might be able to scratch out a living using all the various outlets you described -- teaching being primary among them as far as ways to generate income.
- duderific 11y ago
- rmason 11y agoSpoken with all the honesty that I've come to expect from Steve Miller. Absolutely love that cranky old man telling the truth. Question is why haven't the artists spoken out about the hall of fame over the years? Note some are backing him up now.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoI'd gather that the 'marketing buzz' which HoF inductees might get are highly tempting for artists to put up with. For instance, would there be a Guns N Roses "reunion" stadium tour without the recent drama around their HoF induction? Maybe, but I kind of think it played a role somehow. Or, in more simple terms, no musician wants to be seen as ungrateful for career recognition.
- hardwaresofton 11y agoBigger question might be why record companies still exist in such a similar form to when they were first introduced/at their most powerful?. I'm starting to think that they might actually be a necessity, whether it comes to them offering: - Marketing/Promotion - Distribution - A barrier to entry for new artists I've wonder why a service that just let people sell their own MP3s and albums (+/- streaming) on the internet is not enough (assuming the other things a record company offers were split up and handled by other focused companies). My overly optimistic side thinks it's just a matter of no one having built a service that is transparently, obviously, and enforcably out to do nothing but enable musicians to distribute their own material and profit, but skeptical me is well... skeptical. It's such a nuanced conversation, I wonder if there are any correspondences between someone from tech and someone from the music biz that I could read.
- hiou 11y agoI think a lot of people are missing a point here. It's not just one sided deals and taking advantage of naive or desperate artists. Its that a lot of the entertainment industry is actually gangsters and crooks. Music and movies and other forms of entertainment have been fantastic ways to launder money for a long long time. Maybe someone should to create a way for independent artists to "sell" for those who need a way to legally attribute their profit to the sales of something else.
- mapgrep 11y agoImportant context for the hostility toward the interviewer: The founder and publisher of Rolling Stone, Jann Wenner, is also the chairman and founder of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which Miller was railing against. (Wenner didn't do the interview, of course; he just pays and publishes whoever did.)
- 6stringmerc 11y agoI still wonder if Jann Wenner is telling the truth that he didn't cancel Hunter S. Thompson's health insurance while en route to Vietnam for reporting purposes. Hunter was quite adamant that Wenner did it. We may never know.
- bogomipz 11y agoIt's unfortunate that Tidal is/was such a bust because that really is the right way forward for artists. The big streaming services - Spotify/Google/Apple Music are all just continuing to prop up this horrible abomination known as the "music business" and their business as usual. Record companies provide three basic functions to artists: A source of financing. A distribution system. A marketing department. There are alternative channels for each of these now: Financing has largely been democratized by things like kickstarter et al. Distribution is a solved problem via either all the services largely propping up the 3 major labels or else soundcloud, youtube etc. There's plenty of independent marketing companies that will "work your record" for a fee.
- InclinedPlane 11y agoThe music industry has similar problems to the tech industry, especially game dev. There are a lot of people being exploited tremendously by big businesses. In the music industry it practically works out to a share cropping situation. But the exploited still often achieve more success and more wealth than the median for the developed world, and some of them achieve substantial fame as well. It's hard for the public to get worked up about that, especially considering the degree to which our society dehumanizes and objectifies the famous and the rich.
- roadbeats 11y agoI've been working on a project that will be an attempt to provide both musicians and users much better alternative than they got, with radical freedom and also a new kind of economic ecosystem. I don't wanna pitch this idea to VCs, so have a crazy idea about how I'll grow it all around the world. I've been coding for a while and if you're crazy enough, let me know. My e-mail is azer@roadbeats.com.
- niccaluim 11y agoThe president of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame responded: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/rock-hall-president-responds-to-steve-millers-blistering-comments-20160412?page=3 http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/rock-hall-preside... Makes Steve seem like a bit of a jerk, imho.
- erikpukinskis 11y agoCapitalism is people working hard to set up tolls so they don't have to work hard anymore while people who actually like working and creating things of value day after day get 20-99% of the value of their work skimmed off the top.
- evandonaldson 11y agoNo wonder YC doesn't go for music industry startups anymore
- yuhong 11y agoI wonder what would happen to record companies if DAT existed in the 1960s or 1970s (before they really consolidated). I am thinking that it is probably not a good thing for middleman like record companies to get big.