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He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read Th

by Zelmor 11y ago

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does, but what the never-manifest possibility of what could have been. Maybe he would have been terrible at that kind of work. That doesn't matter, because in his head, he had the skills but made a bad decision. Instead of looking at what he has achieved in his life and career as a programmer, he is pondering what could have been in a reality that is not, never was and never will be. This kind of thinking leads one astray. >My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. I just have to say this: So typically american.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>My sister has 10X the assets I have. That gave me pause as well. Work 10x as hard for 10 assets? Not worth it for everyone.
- brianwawok 11y ago
  Do you think his sister worked 10x the hours? So say a 400 hour week?
  - WesleyJohnson 11y ago
    Working harder doesn't always mean working more hours. After 8 hours sitting at a desk programming, sometimes I realize how lucky I am to not have to hand-load semis all day in a blistering hot distribution center. And then sometimes, after a particularly grueling programming session working on the same bug for 8 hours, I yearn for a day of work where I can shut my brain off and chuck some boxes. 'Harder' is subjective.
    - fibonachos 11y ago
      Having chucked boxes in my youth, and currently a programmer, I can relate. As my skills have improved over the years it doesn't happen as much, but there are still those moments where standing in the back of a 52' trailer, calling off tags, and making tidy stacks of electronics doesn't sound so bad. As mindless as work like that tends to be, there is a kind of zen quality to it. I think the trick now is to find a hobby that lets me turn off the left side of by brain for a while to do something so simple, yet satisfying.
      - abawany 11y ago
        I have an alternate point of view: my desire to remain engaged in an interesting and problem is high so that anything resembling monotony quickly bores and frustrates me. I question what I had done wrong in a previous life to be condemned to a latter day Sysiphian punishment. This is primarily why I rail hard against processes - they appear as manifestly unjust punishment. In my opinion, our brains have a way of painting the bad old days in a nostalgic light. I would posit that if you were forced by circumstances to chuck boxes for 8 hours a day with company-specified arrival and departure times plus company-specified breaks, you would not relish it. But that's just my opinion.
    - brianwawok 11y ago
      I have programmed, and I have worked in factories, such as a door factory. Programming is 100% beyond a doubt harder. My brain is mush at the end of a good day of programming. Making doors? Physically tired but mentally fine.. and I find the physical side was easier to recover from. So I get the door making -> programming is "harder" and I make about 10x the money.. but I would not say it was 10x harder, maybe 1.3x harder.. so clearly programming is a better job for me than door making.
      - forgetsusername 11y ago
        >I have programmed, and I have worked in factories So have I, and I come to the opposite conclusion. Does my anecdote trump yours?
HemanHeartYou 11y ago
I agree this guy is way too whiny and jealous of materials. However, you're still the asshole here.
- 59nadir 11y ago
  Why does anyone need to be "the asshole"? Neither of them seem like assholes. No one is doing anything wrong... One guy is saying "What if?" and the other is saying "Perhaps that wouldn't happen like you imagine it?". These are both perfectly valid ideas and thoughts and I don't see why anyone has to be wrong.
berntb 11y ago
Regarding this... I got sick at a similar time as the big IT death. I took time off to study organic chemistry and biochemistry. The subject really bored me in high school, but it really interested me after reading a pile of books. I always felt a lack because I never studied something related to reality, just about abstract symbols. That I got a chance to go back to uni to study a second subject, real science, makes me feel grateful. (And regarding 10X assets -- it was probably one of the worst decisions in my life if you consider only money. :-) )
tomp 11y ago
10X the assets => retire 10 times sooner => program when you're retired => no missing out
- NhanH 11y ago
  Retiring at 6 years old?
  - eru 11y ago
    Retire after 10x shorter career..
- pjmlp 11y ago
  When one retires, there are lots of more interesting things to do with your life than spending the remaining days of your life in front of a computer screen.
  - xiphias 11y ago
    Like what? The more I know about things outside programming, the more I see how interesting it is and how much boring, repeating stuff you have to go through to have fun in other parts of life.
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      And you never have to do anything boring or repetitive as a programmer. Sure we can automate a lot of things away once we know how to do them. But the task of staying up to date or learning in the first place involves a ton of repetition. And then there's the repeated task of learning when you get to a new project with a new language and new hardware. Of course, you could just be repeatedly implementing the same thing with slight variations for years so minimal repetition in learning but maximal repetition in doing.
    - blazespin 11y ago
      Sailing!
dcw303 11y ago
I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed. The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;) If 10x assets is what drives you, more power to you. For me, being happy right now is more important that any imagined future happiness that a fat bank account could provide. And let's be honest, you can still make a pretty decent salary as a developer. You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today.
- henrik_w 11y ago
  So true! I've been programming professionally for 25 years, still love it! http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ Also, it's easy to forget that being a SW developer today has a lot going for it - especially the demand. At least here in Stockholm, if you are good at what you do, you can pick and chose where to work. So no reason to stay at a place where you are not happy. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-developer-is-a-great-career-choice/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev...
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Same here, but it is a big fight to convince the others why you want to stay that way. Right now I get the feeling that long term, going consulting might be the only option left as regular companies tend to only keep juniors coding. > You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today. Just for this remark I wish I could have upvoted you more than once. This is something that those that live for the job, without paying attention to family and friends seem to forget.
  - buserror 11y ago
    Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people. And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is... Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for me. People for whom this is not a calling will never be /really/ good at it (for one thing, they don't spend their spare time doing it!) and eventually gravitate out of it. But the ones for whom it is a calling, well, sod the money, give me some nice project/people to work on/with and I'm happy. Or, do that but also get the money by going consulting. That's what I do for the last few years. It's quite exciting being a 'mercenary' in a way, and you can dissociate yourself from the companies/products and focus on the engineering.
studentrob 11y ago
OP referenced the poem at the end. > I came to a fork in the road and took the one less traveled. Perhaps now I realize why. He seems to disagree with Frost that the road less traveled is the one worth taking, judging from the title and overall tone of the post.
- labster 11y ago
  The roads are equally travelled; Frost says that at the beginning of the poem. Life is a process of narrowing possibilities, and looking back at a particular decision doesn't have a lot of meaning. But everyone get it wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071717
  - studentrob 11y ago
    I guess we all have our own takeaways. What in your view is meant by the last lines? > I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.
    - chii 11y ago
      There's a contingent of people who believe that Robert Frost was lamenting the fact that he took the road less traveled by, and had a worse experience. There's a good reason why certain roads are more traveled, and by not going the common path, his life was much harder.
      - Lerc 11y ago
        I took it to be a satirical comment on the way everyone expresses their individuality the same way. Very much the in the same theme as the Monty Python gag: CROWD: We are all Individuals! GUY AT BACK: I'm not.
        studentrob 11y ago
        Haha. That's a good one.
petewailes 11y ago
At the risk of being "that guy", this actually misses the point of the poem. Quoting: "Though as for that the passing there/Had worn them really about the same/And both that morning equally lay" The poem states that the two roads are basically the same. Further points of interest... "I shall be telling this with a sigh/Somewhere ages and ages hence:/Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—/I took the one less traveled by,/And that has made all the difference." The author knows his own folly: that he'll look back and say it was an important choice, that he picked the path that was more special. When of course in fact he did no such thing. It's a poem about how people self-aggrandise and think their choices more important and better than they are. Of course, no-one ever actually reads anything other than the last two lines, so the point of the poem ends up being missed. Which is ironic, given the actual message. Fun fact: the poem was written with Edward Thomas, a good friend of Frost's, in mind. Frost said of Thomas: "No matter which road you take, you'll always sigh, and wish you'd taken another." Thomas was invariably lamenting how he should have taken the other option in any case where there were two things to choose. Which sheds a little light on the humour in the poem.
- BatFastard 11y ago
  Take the path that lets you spend more good time with your family and friends. Those experiences add to the fabric of life more than money does.
  - tamana 11y ago
    Money buys time and freedom and security.
    - nocman 11y ago
      Actually it doesn't buy time or freedom, usually. In my experience, most (not all, but most) of the people who have a lots of money acquire it by working long days and having little free time. They also have little freedom because they are so tied to their job. Again, everyone with lots of money doesn't have this problem, but in my experience most of them do.
- 11y ago
Trundle 11y ago
While that's entirely possible I don't think one can conclude it with certainty from his post. You say he'd be missing the programming side if he went the other direction but the only reason he listed for choosing programming was because he considered it easier. Looking at what he has achieved in his life and career as a programmer doesn't do much if those achievements aren't aligned with his values. Picking the wrong career path is entirely possible. Some people absolutely love technical problem solving, he doesn't mention it at all. For all we know it's worthless to him and just something he has to do to earn a cheque. I do think you might be on to something with >Maybe he would have been terrible at that kind of work. though. He makes it sound like in 1994 he signed a document stating that assassins should murder him if he ever tries to manage anyone. I find it hard to believe that if he was good at managing people and influencing decisions that he would have went the rest of his career unable to break back in to management. Convincing people to give him the job is part of the needed skill set!
- sokoloff 11y ago
  > Convincing people to give him the job is part of the needed skill set! My experience is that companies (many, perhaps most) are falling all over themselves to give senior programmers a shot at managing people.
mattlutze 11y ago
Well, the author seems to feel like he wanted to make a difference on the product side, and in that way the roads are not at all the same. If your goal is to build software products, how do you make the biggest impact? This feels like the question the author is answering with his observation that, as a programmer, you rarely have the clout to make the decisions necessary to drive the best product (or any at all) to market, outside of intentionally writing back code.
Chris2048 11y ago
He could of gone into management/leadership, and failed miserably. The cherry-picked success stories don't mean success is more likely. If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' - at the same time indie dev startups are very competitive. I guess you have to balance risk and reward. If you focus on the best examples of an option, you have to also compare it to the risk (how many fail).
- freyr 11y ago
  > If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' A well-paid manager saying, "But I could have made more developing Minecraft!" might as well complain, "But I could have made more if I won the lottery!" If high compensation is the goal, being a manager is simply a much more straightforward and reliable path than being a programmer.
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    The highest paid jobs, without disproportionate barriers/gatekeepers/high-bars are jobs that become desired; demand = X, but where supply is low; supply <~ X. Which means job that used to be either low-demand, low-paid, or (usually) both. Otherwise demand has to keep rising, because without barriers, an increase in pay will cause a delayed increase in supply (as people are attracted to the field) which then meets the demand, or at least evens it out, reducing pay in turn, unless demand keeps increasing. My own 2$ ameteur micro-economic theory there :-) Anyway, the point is this; Is hard to predict which jobs will pay well when you start on that path. well paid jobs now might be lower paid by the time you and every other chaser-of-the-dollar goes into the same field, increasing supply, pushing down pay. The opposite can happen too. Builder/labourer might not be seen as too lucrative in the past, yet in some times it certainly has been. And I wonder how many BAs actually fail to get high paying jobs?...
    - freyr 11y ago
      That's a great theory, but in the real world, certain professions and job roles have categorically enjoyed much higher compensation than average over long stretches of time. Upper management is an obvious example; it's been well compensated for as long as the concept of upper management has existed, and as much as we might fantasize about it, there are no signs that managers around the world will suddenly be paid less than their subordinates. Yes, there may be micro-fluctuations where every company is suddenly scrambling to hire the latest flavor of the month (e.g. data analyst is now data scientist). These are hard to predict. But you know who will reliably earn more than the data scientist in three years? The data scientist's boss.
mclovinit 11y ago
I took a management path at first, thinking it was a natural progression upon obtaining over a decade and a half of experience and being enouraged by my peers over the years. I was never unhappier. I gave it everything I could. My team loved me and I shielded them from mountains of pain and frustration. I got sick from stress and mildly depressed from lack of a technically creative outlet. It took me over a year to recover physically and now I am fully back in the game developing as a technical lead. I still manage, obviously, but within a different context. From my standpoint, I do not regret anything. I learned from these experiences because I love to explore and am not afraid to fail along the way. I see so many that seek advice when they have the power to take action themselves. So much time wasted really.
- rb808 11y ago
  I was the same. Its great you shielded all the crap from the team, but it didn't turn out very well. Next time I'm going to try and shield but also delegate lots of crap guilt free!
- gwbas1c 11y ago
  I get the impression that it's always "easy" to move into management, so there's no need to rush into a management role. In contrast, I fear that once I try management, it will be hard to move back to being a developer. How easy / hard was it for you to return to being a developer?
  - CIPHERSTONE 11y ago
    I think it would depend in large part with how active you keep your programming skills and how up to date you stay on industry changes. Sure, your initial reaction to reading this is that you would stay sharp as ever, but management is a different kind of grind, and it tends to wear on your soul. Perks are good, trade offs not so good. Personally, I'm glad I got our of management and back into the nuts and bolts side of the house.
  - LVB 11y ago
    I think it's a function of time and effort. Every day you're not in a dedicated developer role, you will lose a tiny bit of "free" updating about what developers do, use, love, hate, etc. You can offset this somewhat by your own efforts, but they will be limited because the process of working with other developers bringing something to production is its own thing, separate from just keeping tech skills sharp. I've always been quite active with side projects and moved back into development after about 5 years being in management. It went OK. Everyone was younger than me, stuff had obviously changed and I was out of my comfort zone for sure, but it was a successful transition. If I'd not been so into development on the side (i.e. constantly writing tools and apps with new technologies), I feel it would have been pretty difficult to switch back.
mtalantikite 11y ago
This is one of the most widely misunderstood poems around. It doesn't actually mean what most people think it means: http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...
- sickbeard 11y ago
  The link doesn't actually make a good argument on why people don't think what it means
stkni 11y ago
Yep, I made the same realization as the OP in that changing things to any large extent required being part of the management. I got my break 10 years ago then 6 months after that I quit to go and work overseas to be with my wife & family. Turns out being a programmer is a very portable skill, and good ones get paid well. Life isn't so bad. I imagine if I'd spent the last 10 years in management I probably wouldn't have changed jobs and be just as frustrated, just in a different way. But let's not get carried away here, the OP (and I) might have been pretty poor management material after all.
hashkb 11y ago
He quotes Frost in his post. Pretty sure he gets your point. In fact, he was making it.
- sheepleherd 11y ago
  he quotes Frost, but I don't see why he thinks "remaining a programmer" is "the road less taken". In most hierarchical promotion systems, one is chosen to lead many... leadership is always the road less taken, even if it is the road most desired.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
>I just have to say this: So typically american. And without this attitude we wouldn't have the things we have today. Trust me, Gates, Jobs, and a slew of others who built our modern world didn't do what they did for fun. They did it for (mostly) money. The same way the successful people in revolutionary fields today are doing so for money. We can't have progress if we sit back and just judge everyone as "greedy" and expect good things to happen. Without these attitudes we wouldnt have the internet, the mobile revolution, commercialization of space, or the upcoming robotics/AI revolution. Maybe this guy should have migrated to management. Lots of people do and they're happier there. Not everyone is cut out to be some salty bad-ass coder until retirement. For most people this stuff is just a job, not a religion, and as people get older their social skills, wisdom, etc increase and many of them simply find being a manager or a mentor to be a more fulfilling use of their time. Society recognizes this and pays accordingly. There's nothing wrong with the profit incentive as a motivator. In fact, competing in a capitalist technological market is one of life's few meritocracies and has paid humanity back in so many ways, its probably impossible to understand how vast the changes its brought us truly are. This conversation and everything you take for granted in your life right now would have been impossible without it. So maybe layoff with the holier-than-thou attitude?
- jdkoeck 11y ago
  Steve Jobs had plenty of character failings, but to say that he did what he did "for money" is a gross misunderstanding of what really drove him (a yearn for exceptional design, often at the expense of user choice).
  - lgieron 11y ago
    I think he said in his youth to Woz that he wanted to 'one of the important people' - owning and running a multibillion company allowed him to achieve that.
exelius 11y ago
> I just have to say this: So typically american. The attitude presented in the article is indeed typically American -- but not for the reason I think you intended. The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny. Fuck, it's right there in the first sentence of the first document declaring this country's independence. Americans are often seen as greedy relative to our European counterparts. But you have to remember that there's a different social contract over in the USA -- if you fall, you're on your own. Therefore, money is seen primarily as a means to self-determination. Now, this all gets fucked when you throw in consumer culture on top of it, but the desire to accumulate large sums of money is not uniquely American -- but we're damn good at it because the cultural message we get sent early on is that once you're an adult, you're on your own. If you want to control your destiny, you'd better learn how to make money. But notice that the author's main complaint wasn't about money -- it was about all the wasted opportunities where if he had more power (in the form of a management role) he could have had more influence on the outcome of situations he was involved with. The loss of self-determination is the big gripe -- and the entire reason I hit the eject button from engineering early in my career.
- andyjohnson0 11y ago
  Like you, I don't think the author of the blog post wanted money or power for their own sake. Relevant to your final paragraph: People Want Power Because They Want Autonomy [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137
  - KyleBrandt 11y ago
    Right. If you get a lot of money it doesn't mean you have to go buy a bunch of crap you don't really want. Rather it can give you influence. You can invest in charities or companies you believe in to shape the future. For example http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-florida.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-fl...
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
cableshaft 11y ago
I was a programmer, and then spent a year and a half as a games producer, and could have kept going down that path, but decided to go back in programming. Half the time I spent as a producer I was worried about the fact that I wasn't doing any programming, and my skills were atrophying. Production had some real perks in comparison, being able to meet a lot of people I admired, going on business trips, etc, but I got frustrated with only trying to cajole developers to add certain features that I thought would make the game better, instead of being able to dive into the code and add the feature myself, and iterate until all the kinks came out of it. You'd be surprised how many times you can say "this game is too hard, you have to make it easier" or "the text in this UI is too small, you need to make it easier to read" and developers still won't do it, or will only tweak it marginally to say they did it, instead of sitting down and actually trying to make the game easier. And then the game comes out, and it gets blasted by critics for being "too damn hard". If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific, but I can only iterate when they give me a new build, which usually takes days. I can't change a variable and rebuild it in 30 seconds like I could as a developer.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  Unfortunately, in the vast majority of places, you can't have both. You're either making the decisions about content or you're implementing other people's decisions. In my experience, very few companies have engineering roles where you get to say, "This is best for the product" AND go off and implement it.
- qznc 11y ago
  > If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific That isn't the job of a producer or manager. Maybe quality assurance or testing? It sounds like you were micromanaging them. If I were in that position I would try to educate them about what makes a game hard and how hard games should be. I would educate them about typography. I would not tell them what to do. They must find the solution themselves. Hm, I'm violating my own advice with the paragraph above. :) As a developer, I hate it when somebody gives me too vague problems "game is too hard" or too detailed assignments like "make the font size bigger". I need an accurate problem description with all requirements. If it isn't accurate, my solution will probably miss the point. If I haven't all requirements I will probably violate some of the unspoken rules.
raducu 11y ago
I understand the authors frustration, and it's not really about money as some here believe. In my 6 jobs as a programmer I've also seen so many incompetent managers, so much time wasted, so much bullshit, so much backstabbing and narcissists galore. But the problem is not really about THEM managers, but about ME and my maladaptive cognitive schemas (commonly known to everybody as lack of social skills, subjugation to authority, procrastination, lack of discipline and so on). The bitterness results from the fact that even if you're a great programmer, most companies will try to stamp you into a predictable, replaceable and interchangeable little cog and will use you as it sees fit. If you're not happy with that, if you think you posses great insight and you can do better, you either develop your own product or you take on some sort of leadership role.
- pier25 11y ago
  Spot on. The problem is being able to influence things in a creative way. https://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc https://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc I'd rather be the captain of my small pirate ship than a cog in giant battleship. But I'm in my mid 30s now, maybe that will change when I get to 40.
  - zaphodX 11y ago
    I am in my early 40s, and I thought 40s would be different as I will have less home pressures, and more time to myself. Also, I will be mature to take on challenges. Doesn't work that way. Please start today.. don't hope for a things changing in 40s as it will come to your very very fast.
  - programmer_man 11y ago
    Another option: caption of your own pirate ship, inside a giant battleship.
- jimbokun 11y ago
  This is probably why Jony Ive's title is a three letter acronym starting with "C". Only way to make sure his creative decisions are actually implemented.
klochner 11y ago
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...
anon4 11y ago
Lol, that poem. That poem is meant to be taken literally, the poet wrote it for his friend who wouldn't shut up about nature hikes. You had a much better saying at your disposal "The grass is always greener on the other side". Alas, you chose not to use it and now we don't know how your comment would have turned out, had it made sense.
aantix 11y ago
>My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. It's so hilarious that he calls himself a "programmer". With 30+ years of experience, you're a software engineer, an architect, and best of all, a consultant. Then you charge 5x the normal rate of a salaried engineer, work normal hours, and start accumulating real assets. He needed to put down the technical books, read a book about personal branding and then he could have had his cake and eaten it too.
- kamaal 11y ago
  >>Then you charge 5x the normal rate of a salaried engineer, work normal hours, and start accumulating real assets. This is dream which happens only when you are asleep. In real life an older person is less energetic, less enthusiastic, can't do weekends, has health issues, has responsibilities, has family commitments etc etc. Young people work insane hours, they do that for cheap, they show up on weekends and are more flexible in general. In most cases. Like in everyday cases experience doesn't pay well as you think. Even in professions like medicine and law that is true. The assumption that experienced people get paid well applies for a minority few people who for nearly all practical purposes are an exception to the whole rule.
  - aantix 11y ago
    >This is dream which happens only when you are asleep. In real >life an older person is less energetic, less enthusiastic, >can't do weekends, has health issues, has responsibilities, >has family commitments etc etc. >Young people work insane hours, they do that for cheap, they >show up on weekends and are more flexible in general. Your assumption that income is directly related to your output is wrong. Making better, more qualified decisions is one way to differentiate yourself as you get older. Another is to quantify your output; maybe you do less programming but the pieces you do write can provide the company with a million+ lift in revenue? Or you position yourself as writing a cleaner implementation, without having to rewrite 3 or 4 times to get it correct (ehem, those "energetic" youngins). Company's pay for experience all of the time; and when it can be tied directly to increases in profits/revenues, you're way ahead of the game (especially ahead of any Jr. programmer that just blindly pumps out code).
VLM 11y ago
"because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on" Look on the bright side. I can do all the programming I want at night and on weekends, in fact I technically have more time away from work to do it, than at work, and most employers consider "learn at home" to be mandatory, but your average nuclear engineer, infectious disease researcher, forensic accountant, or organic chemist is pretty much screwed in that regard. For decades I've been expecting capitalization to freeze out home computer users by making everything too expensive for hobbyists yet cheap for a company to afford (think of the example of CNC milling machines, or electronics), and the cloud comes close to ruining hobbyists, but you can still pretty much keep up with the bleeding edge at home in programming, if you want.
SeanDav 11y ago
This is a bad case of "the grass is greener on the other side...". I learned long ago never to chase the money. Do what you enjoy and you will never work a day in your life. Obviously, life is never quite this simple and in any job you will have periods when you do not enjoy some aspects, but the point is, do what makes you happy, follow your bliss. Of course there is another point to this the author does not seem to be considering, just because you go into management, does not mean necessarily you will be good at it, or be prepared to do the things that might be needed to get ahead. For example can you fire a friend just because it is what is best for the company? You get good managers and you get bad managers. Good managers can make a lot of money but there is no guarantee he would have made a good manager.
baldfat 11y ago
> The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost TL:DR: There was no road less traveled by they were equally the same, but he fooled himself into think he made a special choice. Just some poetry discussion. "The Road Not Taken" is considered the most misunderstood and misinterpreted poem. (It was great to make freshmen tackle this poem in freshmen Theology Class. Then we went on to most misinterpreted scripture verse :) So, in the end, while he was very clear in the present that the two roads were identical with no real reason to take one over the other, later in life he knew he’d once again fool himself, this time successfully, by instead remembering that one road was “less traveled by” and that this influenced his decision, when in fact he really decided on a whim. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/09/robert-frost-poem-killed-friend/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/09/robert-frost...
- s_ngularity 11y ago
  Out of curiosity, what did your instructor consider the most misinterpreted scripture verse?
  - baldfat 11y ago
    Well I got to be the instructor for that day's class :) My favorite is short example: In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. Matt. 5:45 (NLT) Rain in a semi-arid agriculture area was a good thing. People read it and think God sends bad things to also. So when something bad happens people will quote this verse. I also like the Prodigal Son (It really is the Parable of the Older Brother). People miss the main point and think it is about bad children coming back to the Father (Its a side point) The main point is the Older Brother was mad that the Father was nice to the bad son.
  - gvb 11y ago
    Tangential, but the most misquoted text is 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil". Most people elide "the love of" which totally changes the application.
fatlasp 11y ago
>My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. This also has SO much to do with OPs lifestyle / propensity to save. "The millionaire next door" goes a long way in explaining how even lower income households can accumulate much more wealth than many high income earners with simple lifestyle differences.
balls187 11y ago
> So typically American [sic]. That's one reason why Frost's poem is misinterpreted, due to American belief in destiny.
ljk 11y ago
aka grass is greener on the other side
fezz 11y ago
There are no guarantees that any path you take will be the right path for you by any metric, financial or otherwise.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
pjlegato 11y ago
> I just have to say this: So typically american. This remark would be considered highly offensive and racist if it were uttered about most nationalities. Would you say that to appraise the sentiments of, for example, a Jew? Of course not. Everyone would rightly condemn you for it.
- _yosefk 11y ago
  I dunno, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't mind this particular remark, and a sister comment claimed it seemed typically Chinese just as much and claimed to be Chinese themselves. One point here is that it's seemingly OK if it's not derogatory plus one is talking about one's own group. Another point is there's a continuum between nationality and culture, and it ought to be OK to point out that something is specific to a culture, and American specifically is very likely to be used to label a culture and not the people as in a bunch of guys and gals with specific genes. This is not to say that one ought to agree with grandparent's views on American culture, just that those views probably aren't racist. BTW I personally try not to say this sort of thing since people might be offended all too easily, so I guess I agree with you in that way.
munificent 11y ago
> I just have to say this: So typically american. That's funny. I'm from the US and when I got to that line, I found myself assuming the author was an immigrant or foreigner. Talking publicly about financial success isn't something I associate with people natively from the US. Certainly, among the people I grew up around, it would be considered unconscionably tasteless to do so.
dinkumthinkum 11y ago
I think referencing Frost is a little dismissive here. The writer has some pretty clear reasons and description of his regret that probably many should pay attention to.
cpeterso 11y ago
I recommend also reading "The Most Misread Poem in America": Most readers consider “The Road Not Taken” to be a paean to triumphant self-assertion (“I took the one less traveled by”), but the literal meaning of the poem’s own lines seems completely at odds with this interpretation. The poem’s speaker … has already admitted that the two paths “equally lay / In leaves” and “the passing there / Had worn them really about the same.” So the road he will later call less traveled is actually the road equally traveled. The two roads are interchangeable. http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...

by Zelmor 11y ago

forgetsusername 11y ago

>My sister has 10X the assets I have. That gave me pause as well. Work 10x as hard for 10 assets? Not worth it for everyone.

brianwawok 11y ago
Do you think his sister worked 10x the hours? So say a 400 hour week?
- WesleyJohnson 11y ago
  Working harder doesn't always mean working more hours. After 8 hours sitting at a desk programming, sometimes I realize how lucky I am to not have to hand-load semis all day in a blistering hot distribution center. And then sometimes, after a particularly grueling programming session working on the same bug for 8 hours, I yearn for a day of work where I can shut my brain off and chuck some boxes. 'Harder' is subjective.
  - fibonachos 11y ago
    Having chucked boxes in my youth, and currently a programmer, I can relate. As my skills have improved over the years it doesn't happen as much, but there are still those moments where standing in the back of a 52' trailer, calling off tags, and making tidy stacks of electronics doesn't sound so bad. As mindless as work like that tends to be, there is a kind of zen quality to it. I think the trick now is to find a hobby that lets me turn off the left side of by brain for a while to do something so simple, yet satisfying.
    - abawany 11y ago
      I have an alternate point of view: my desire to remain engaged in an interesting and problem is high so that anything resembling monotony quickly bores and frustrates me. I question what I had done wrong in a previous life to be condemned to a latter day Sysiphian punishment. This is primarily why I rail hard against processes - they appear as manifestly unjust punishment. In my opinion, our brains have a way of painting the bad old days in a nostalgic light. I would posit that if you were forced by circumstances to chuck boxes for 8 hours a day with company-specified arrival and departure times plus company-specified breaks, you would not relish it. But that's just my opinion.
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    I have programmed, and I have worked in factories, such as a door factory. Programming is 100% beyond a doubt harder. My brain is mush at the end of a good day of programming. Making doors? Physically tired but mentally fine.. and I find the physical side was easier to recover from. So I get the door making -> programming is "harder" and I make about 10x the money.. but I would not say it was 10x harder, maybe 1.3x harder.. so clearly programming is a better job for me than door making.
    - forgetsusername 11y ago
      >I have programmed, and I have worked in factories So have I, and I come to the opposite conclusion. Does my anecdote trump yours?

HemanHeartYou 11y ago

I agree this guy is way too whiny and jealous of materials. However, you're still the asshole here.

59nadir 11y ago
Why does anyone need to be "the asshole"? Neither of them seem like assholes. No one is doing anything wrong... One guy is saying "What if?" and the other is saying "Perhaps that wouldn't happen like you imagine it?". These are both perfectly valid ideas and thoughts and I don't see why anyone has to be wrong.

berntb 11y ago

Regarding this... I got sick at a similar time as the big IT death. I took time off to study organic chemistry and biochemistry. The subject really bored me in high school, but it really interested me after reading a pile of books. I always felt a lack because I never studied something related to reality, just about abstract symbols. That I got a chance to go back to uni to study a second subject, real science, makes me feel grateful. (And regarding 10X assets -- it was probably one of the worst decisions in my life if you consider only money. :-) )

tomp 11y ago

10X the assets => retire 10 times sooner => program when you're retired => no missing out

NhanH 11y ago
Retiring at 6 years old?
- eru 11y ago
  Retire after 10x shorter career..
pjmlp 11y ago
When one retires, there are lots of more interesting things to do with your life than spending the remaining days of your life in front of a computer screen.
- xiphias 11y ago
  Like what? The more I know about things outside programming, the more I see how interesting it is and how much boring, repeating stuff you have to go through to have fun in other parts of life.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    And you never have to do anything boring or repetitive as a programmer. Sure we can automate a lot of things away once we know how to do them. But the task of staying up to date or learning in the first place involves a ton of repetition. And then there's the repeated task of learning when you get to a new project with a new language and new hardware. Of course, you could just be repeatedly implementing the same thing with slight variations for years so minimal repetition in learning but maximal repetition in doing.
  - blazespin 11y ago
    Sailing!

dcw303 11y ago

I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed. The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;) If 10x assets is what drives you, more power to you. For me, being happy right now is more important that any imagined future happiness that a fat bank account could provide. And let's be honest, you can still make a pretty decent salary as a developer. You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today.

henrik_w 11y ago
So true! I've been programming professionally for 25 years, still love it! http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ Also, it's easy to forget that being a SW developer today has a lot going for it - especially the demand. At least here in Stockholm, if you are good at what you do, you can pick and chose where to work. So no reason to stay at a place where you are not happy. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-developer-is-a-great-career-choice/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev...
pjmlp 11y ago
Same here, but it is a big fight to convince the others why you want to stay that way. Right now I get the feeling that long term, going consulting might be the only option left as regular companies tend to only keep juniors coding. > You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today. Just for this remark I wish I could have upvoted you more than once. This is something that those that live for the job, without paying attention to family and friends seem to forget.
- buserror 11y ago
  Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people. And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is... Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for me. People for whom this is not a calling will never be /really/ good at it (for one thing, they don't spend their spare time doing it!) and eventually gravitate out of it. But the ones for whom it is a calling, well, sod the money, give me some nice project/people to work on/with and I'm happy. Or, do that but also get the money by going consulting. That's what I do for the last few years. It's quite exciting being a 'mercenary' in a way, and you can dissociate yourself from the companies/products and focus on the engineering.

studentrob 11y ago

OP referenced the poem at the end. > I came to a fork in the road and took the one less traveled. Perhaps now I realize why. He seems to disagree with Frost that the road less traveled is the one worth taking, judging from the title and overall tone of the post.

labster 11y ago
The roads are equally travelled; Frost says that at the beginning of the poem. Life is a process of narrowing possibilities, and looking back at a particular decision doesn't have a lot of meaning. But everyone get it wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071717
- studentrob 11y ago
  I guess we all have our own takeaways. What in your view is meant by the last lines? > I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.
  - chii 11y ago
    There's a contingent of people who believe that Robert Frost was lamenting the fact that he took the road less traveled by, and had a worse experience. There's a good reason why certain roads are more traveled, and by not going the common path, his life was much harder.
    - Lerc 11y ago
      I took it to be a satirical comment on the way everyone expresses their individuality the same way. Very much the in the same theme as the Monty Python gag: CROWD: We are all Individuals! GUY AT BACK: I'm not.
      - studentrob 11y ago
        Haha. That's a good one.

petewailes 11y ago

At the risk of being "that guy", this actually misses the point of the poem. Quoting: "Though as for that the passing there/Had worn them really about the same/And both that morning equally lay" The poem states that the two roads are basically the same. Further points of interest... "I shall be telling this with a sigh/Somewhere ages and ages hence:/Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—/I took the one less traveled by,/And that has made all the difference." The author knows his own folly: that he'll look back and say it was an important choice, that he picked the path that was more special. When of course in fact he did no such thing. It's a poem about how people self-aggrandise and think their choices more important and better than they are. Of course, no-one ever actually reads anything other than the last two lines, so the point of the poem ends up being missed. Which is ironic, given the actual message. Fun fact: the poem was written with Edward Thomas, a good friend of Frost's, in mind. Frost said of Thomas: "No matter which road you take, you'll always sigh, and wish you'd taken another." Thomas was invariably lamenting how he should have taken the other option in any case where there were two things to choose. Which sheds a little light on the humour in the poem.

BatFastard 11y ago
Take the path that lets you spend more good time with your family and friends. Those experiences add to the fabric of life more than money does.
- tamana 11y ago
  Money buys time and freedom and security.
  - nocman 11y ago
    Actually it doesn't buy time or freedom, usually. In my experience, most (not all, but most) of the people who have a lots of money acquire it by working long days and having little free time. They also have little freedom because they are so tied to their job. Again, everyone with lots of money doesn't have this problem, but in my experience most of them do.
11y ago

Trundle 11y ago

While that's entirely possible I don't think one can conclude it with certainty from his post. You say he'd be missing the programming side if he went the other direction but the only reason he listed for choosing programming was because he considered it easier. Looking at what he has achieved in his life and career as a programmer doesn't do much if those achievements aren't aligned with his values. Picking the wrong career path is entirely possible. Some people absolutely love technical problem solving, he doesn't mention it at all. For all we know it's worthless to him and just something he has to do to earn a cheque. I do think you might be on to something with >Maybe he would have been terrible at that kind of work. though. He makes it sound like in 1994 he signed a document stating that assassins should murder him if he ever tries to manage anyone. I find it hard to believe that if he was good at managing people and influencing decisions that he would have went the rest of his career unable to break back in to management. Convincing people to give him the job is part of the needed skill set!

sokoloff 11y ago
> Convincing people to give him the job is part of the needed skill set! My experience is that companies (many, perhaps most) are falling all over themselves to give senior programmers a shot at managing people.

mattlutze 11y ago

Well, the author seems to feel like he wanted to make a difference on the product side, and in that way the roads are not at all the same. If your goal is to build software products, how do you make the biggest impact? This feels like the question the author is answering with his observation that, as a programmer, you rarely have the clout to make the decisions necessary to drive the best product (or any at all) to market, outside of intentionally writing back code.

Chris2048 11y ago

He could of gone into management/leadership, and failed miserably. The cherry-picked success stories don't mean success is more likely. If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' - at the same time indie dev startups are very competitive. I guess you have to balance risk and reward. If you focus on the best examples of an option, you have to also compare it to the risk (how many fail).

freyr 11y ago
> If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' A well-paid manager saying, "But I could have made more developing Minecraft!" might as well complain, "But I could have made more if I won the lottery!" If high compensation is the goal, being a manager is simply a much more straightforward and reliable path than being a programmer.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  The highest paid jobs, without disproportionate barriers/gatekeepers/high-bars are jobs that become desired; demand = X, but where supply is low; supply <~ X. Which means job that used to be either low-demand, low-paid, or (usually) both. Otherwise demand has to keep rising, because without barriers, an increase in pay will cause a delayed increase in supply (as people are attracted to the field) which then meets the demand, or at least evens it out, reducing pay in turn, unless demand keeps increasing. My own 2$ ameteur micro-economic theory there :-) Anyway, the point is this; Is hard to predict which jobs will pay well when you start on that path. well paid jobs now might be lower paid by the time you and every other chaser-of-the-dollar goes into the same field, increasing supply, pushing down pay. The opposite can happen too. Builder/labourer might not be seen as too lucrative in the past, yet in some times it certainly has been. And I wonder how many BAs actually fail to get high paying jobs?...
  - freyr 11y ago
    That's a great theory, but in the real world, certain professions and job roles have categorically enjoyed much higher compensation than average over long stretches of time. Upper management is an obvious example; it's been well compensated for as long as the concept of upper management has existed, and as much as we might fantasize about it, there are no signs that managers around the world will suddenly be paid less than their subordinates. Yes, there may be micro-fluctuations where every company is suddenly scrambling to hire the latest flavor of the month (e.g. data analyst is now data scientist). These are hard to predict. But you know who will reliably earn more than the data scientist in three years? The data scientist's boss.

mclovinit 11y ago

I took a management path at first, thinking it was a natural progression upon obtaining over a decade and a half of experience and being enouraged by my peers over the years. I was never unhappier. I gave it everything I could. My team loved me and I shielded them from mountains of pain and frustration. I got sick from stress and mildly depressed from lack of a technically creative outlet. It took me over a year to recover physically and now I am fully back in the game developing as a technical lead. I still manage, obviously, but within a different context. From my standpoint, I do not regret anything. I learned from these experiences because I love to explore and am not afraid to fail along the way. I see so many that seek advice when they have the power to take action themselves. So much time wasted really.

rb808 11y ago
I was the same. Its great you shielded all the crap from the team, but it didn't turn out very well. Next time I'm going to try and shield but also delegate lots of crap guilt free!
gwbas1c 11y ago
I get the impression that it's always "easy" to move into management, so there's no need to rush into a management role. In contrast, I fear that once I try management, it will be hard to move back to being a developer. How easy / hard was it for you to return to being a developer?
- CIPHERSTONE 11y ago
  I think it would depend in large part with how active you keep your programming skills and how up to date you stay on industry changes. Sure, your initial reaction to reading this is that you would stay sharp as ever, but management is a different kind of grind, and it tends to wear on your soul. Perks are good, trade offs not so good. Personally, I'm glad I got our of management and back into the nuts and bolts side of the house.
- LVB 11y ago
  I think it's a function of time and effort. Every day you're not in a dedicated developer role, you will lose a tiny bit of "free" updating about what developers do, use, love, hate, etc. You can offset this somewhat by your own efforts, but they will be limited because the process of working with other developers bringing something to production is its own thing, separate from just keeping tech skills sharp. I've always been quite active with side projects and moved back into development after about 5 years being in management. It went OK. Everyone was younger than me, stuff had obviously changed and I was out of my comfort zone for sure, but it was a successful transition. If I'd not been so into development on the side (i.e. constantly writing tools and apps with new technologies), I feel it would have been pretty difficult to switch back.

mtalantikite 11y ago

This is one of the most widely misunderstood poems around. It doesn't actually mean what most people think it means: http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...

sickbeard 11y ago
The link doesn't actually make a good argument on why people don't think what it means

stkni 11y ago

Yep, I made the same realization as the OP in that changing things to any large extent required being part of the management. I got my break 10 years ago then 6 months after that I quit to go and work overseas to be with my wife & family. Turns out being a programmer is a very portable skill, and good ones get paid well. Life isn't so bad. I imagine if I'd spent the last 10 years in management I probably wouldn't have changed jobs and be just as frustrated, just in a different way. But let's not get carried away here, the OP (and I) might have been pretty poor management material after all.

hashkb 11y ago

He quotes Frost in his post. Pretty sure he gets your point. In fact, he was making it.

sheepleherd 11y ago
he quotes Frost, but I don't see why he thinks "remaining a programmer" is "the road less taken". In most hierarchical promotion systems, one is chosen to lead many... leadership is always the road less taken, even if it is the road most desired.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

>I just have to say this: So typically american. And without this attitude we wouldn't have the things we have today. Trust me, Gates, Jobs, and a slew of others who built our modern world didn't do what they did for fun. They did it for (mostly) money. The same way the successful people in revolutionary fields today are doing so for money. We can't have progress if we sit back and just judge everyone as "greedy" and expect good things to happen. Without these attitudes we wouldnt have the internet, the mobile revolution, commercialization of space, or the upcoming robotics/AI revolution. Maybe this guy should have migrated to management. Lots of people do and they're happier there. Not everyone is cut out to be some salty bad-ass coder until retirement. For most people this stuff is just a job, not a religion, and as people get older their social skills, wisdom, etc increase and many of them simply find being a manager or a mentor to be a more fulfilling use of their time. Society recognizes this and pays accordingly. There's nothing wrong with the profit incentive as a motivator. In fact, competing in a capitalist technological market is one of life's few meritocracies and has paid humanity back in so many ways, its probably impossible to understand how vast the changes its brought us truly are. This conversation and everything you take for granted in your life right now would have been impossible without it. So maybe layoff with the holier-than-thou attitude?

jdkoeck 11y ago
Steve Jobs had plenty of character failings, but to say that he did what he did "for money" is a gross misunderstanding of what really drove him (a yearn for exceptional design, often at the expense of user choice).
- lgieron 11y ago
  I think he said in his youth to Woz that he wanted to 'one of the important people' - owning and running a multibillion company allowed him to achieve that.

exelius 11y ago

> I just have to say this: So typically american. The attitude presented in the article is indeed typically American -- but not for the reason I think you intended. The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny. Fuck, it's right there in the first sentence of the first document declaring this country's independence. Americans are often seen as greedy relative to our European counterparts. But you have to remember that there's a different social contract over in the USA -- if you fall, you're on your own. Therefore, money is seen primarily as a means to self-determination. Now, this all gets fucked when you throw in consumer culture on top of it, but the desire to accumulate large sums of money is not uniquely American -- but we're damn good at it because the cultural message we get sent early on is that once you're an adult, you're on your own. If you want to control your destiny, you'd better learn how to make money. But notice that the author's main complaint wasn't about money -- it was about all the wasted opportunities where if he had more power (in the form of a management role) he could have had more influence on the outcome of situations he was involved with. The loss of self-determination is the big gripe -- and the entire reason I hit the eject button from engineering early in my career.

andyjohnson0 11y ago
Like you, I don't think the author of the blog post wanted money or power for their own sake. Relevant to your final paragraph: People Want Power Because They Want Autonomy [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137
- KyleBrandt 11y ago
  Right. If you get a lot of money it doesn't mean you have to go buy a bunch of crap you don't really want. Rather it can give you influence. You can invest in charities or companies you believe in to shape the future. For example http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-florida.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-fl...
  - cookiecaper 11y ago

cableshaft 11y ago

I was a programmer, and then spent a year and a half as a games producer, and could have kept going down that path, but decided to go back in programming. Half the time I spent as a producer I was worried about the fact that I wasn't doing any programming, and my skills were atrophying. Production had some real perks in comparison, being able to meet a lot of people I admired, going on business trips, etc, but I got frustrated with only trying to cajole developers to add certain features that I thought would make the game better, instead of being able to dive into the code and add the feature myself, and iterate until all the kinks came out of it. You'd be surprised how many times you can say "this game is too hard, you have to make it easier" or "the text in this UI is too small, you need to make it easier to read" and developers still won't do it, or will only tweak it marginally to say they did it, instead of sitting down and actually trying to make the game easier. And then the game comes out, and it gets blasted by critics for being "too damn hard". If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific, but I can only iterate when they give me a new build, which usually takes days. I can't change a variable and rebuild it in 30 seconds like I could as a developer.

ryandrake 11y ago
Unfortunately, in the vast majority of places, you can't have both. You're either making the decisions about content or you're implementing other people's decisions. In my experience, very few companies have engineering roles where you get to say, "This is best for the product" AND go off and implement it.
qznc 11y ago
> If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific That isn't the job of a producer or manager. Maybe quality assurance or testing? It sounds like you were micromanaging them. If I were in that position I would try to educate them about what makes a game hard and how hard games should be. I would educate them about typography. I would not tell them what to do. They must find the solution themselves. Hm, I'm violating my own advice with the paragraph above. :) As a developer, I hate it when somebody gives me too vague problems "game is too hard" or too detailed assignments like "make the font size bigger". I need an accurate problem description with all requirements. If it isn't accurate, my solution will probably miss the point. If I haven't all requirements I will probably violate some of the unspoken rules.

raducu 11y ago

I understand the authors frustration, and it's not really about money as some here believe. In my 6 jobs as a programmer I've also seen so many incompetent managers, so much time wasted, so much bullshit, so much backstabbing and narcissists galore. But the problem is not really about THEM managers, but about ME and my maladaptive cognitive schemas (commonly known to everybody as lack of social skills, subjugation to authority, procrastination, lack of discipline and so on). The bitterness results from the fact that even if you're a great programmer, most companies will try to stamp you into a predictable, replaceable and interchangeable little cog and will use you as it sees fit. If you're not happy with that, if you think you posses great insight and you can do better, you either develop your own product or you take on some sort of leadership role.

pier25 11y ago
Spot on. The problem is being able to influence things in a creative way. https://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc https://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc I'd rather be the captain of my small pirate ship than a cog in giant battleship. But I'm in my mid 30s now, maybe that will change when I get to 40.
- zaphodX 11y ago
  I am in my early 40s, and I thought 40s would be different as I will have less home pressures, and more time to myself. Also, I will be mature to take on challenges. Doesn't work that way. Please start today.. don't hope for a things changing in 40s as it will come to your very very fast.
- programmer_man 11y ago
  Another option: caption of your own pirate ship, inside a giant battleship.
jimbokun 11y ago
This is probably why Jony Ive's title is a three letter acronym starting with "C". Only way to make sure his creative decisions are actually implemented.

klochner 11y ago

http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...

anon4 11y ago

Lol, that poem. That poem is meant to be taken literally, the poet wrote it for his friend who wouldn't shut up about nature hikes. You had a much better saying at your disposal "The grass is always greener on the other side". Alas, you chose not to use it and now we don't know how your comment would have turned out, had it made sense.

aantix 11y ago

>My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. It's so hilarious that he calls himself a "programmer". With 30+ years of experience, you're a software engineer, an architect, and best of all, a consultant. Then you charge 5x the normal rate of a salaried engineer, work normal hours, and start accumulating real assets. He needed to put down the technical books, read a book about personal branding and then he could have had his cake and eaten it too.

kamaal 11y ago
>>Then you charge 5x the normal rate of a salaried engineer, work normal hours, and start accumulating real assets. This is dream which happens only when you are asleep. In real life an older person is less energetic, less enthusiastic, can't do weekends, has health issues, has responsibilities, has family commitments etc etc. Young people work insane hours, they do that for cheap, they show up on weekends and are more flexible in general. In most cases. Like in everyday cases experience doesn't pay well as you think. Even in professions like medicine and law that is true. The assumption that experienced people get paid well applies for a minority few people who for nearly all practical purposes are an exception to the whole rule.
- aantix 11y ago
  >This is dream which happens only when you are asleep. In real >life an older person is less energetic, less enthusiastic, >can't do weekends, has health issues, has responsibilities, >has family commitments etc etc. >Young people work insane hours, they do that for cheap, they >show up on weekends and are more flexible in general. Your assumption that income is directly related to your output is wrong. Making better, more qualified decisions is one way to differentiate yourself as you get older. Another is to quantify your output; maybe you do less programming but the pieces you do write can provide the company with a million+ lift in revenue? Or you position yourself as writing a cleaner implementation, without having to rewrite 3 or 4 times to get it correct (ehem, those "energetic" youngins). Company's pay for experience all of the time; and when it can be tied directly to increases in profits/revenues, you're way ahead of the game (especially ahead of any Jr. programmer that just blindly pumps out code).

VLM 11y ago

"because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on" Look on the bright side. I can do all the programming I want at night and on weekends, in fact I technically have more time away from work to do it, than at work, and most employers consider "learn at home" to be mandatory, but your average nuclear engineer, infectious disease researcher, forensic accountant, or organic chemist is pretty much screwed in that regard. For decades I've been expecting capitalization to freeze out home computer users by making everything too expensive for hobbyists yet cheap for a company to afford (think of the example of CNC milling machines, or electronics), and the cloud comes close to ruining hobbyists, but you can still pretty much keep up with the bleeding edge at home in programming, if you want.

SeanDav 11y ago

This is a bad case of "the grass is greener on the other side...". I learned long ago never to chase the money. Do what you enjoy and you will never work a day in your life. Obviously, life is never quite this simple and in any job you will have periods when you do not enjoy some aspects, but the point is, do what makes you happy, follow your bliss. Of course there is another point to this the author does not seem to be considering, just because you go into management, does not mean necessarily you will be good at it, or be prepared to do the things that might be needed to get ahead. For example can you fire a friend just because it is what is best for the company? You get good managers and you get bad managers. Good managers can make a lot of money but there is no guarantee he would have made a good manager.

baldfat 11y ago

> The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost TL:DR: There was no road less traveled by they were equally the same, but he fooled himself into think he made a special choice. Just some poetry discussion. "The Road Not Taken" is considered the most misunderstood and misinterpreted poem. (It was great to make freshmen tackle this poem in freshmen Theology Class. Then we went on to most misinterpreted scripture verse :) So, in the end, while he was very clear in the present that the two roads were identical with no real reason to take one over the other, later in life he knew he’d once again fool himself, this time successfully, by instead remembering that one road was “less traveled by” and that this influenced his decision, when in fact he really decided on a whim. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/09/robert-frost-poem-killed-friend/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/09/robert-frost...

s_ngularity 11y ago
Out of curiosity, what did your instructor consider the most misinterpreted scripture verse?
- baldfat 11y ago
  Well I got to be the instructor for that day's class :) My favorite is short example: In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. Matt. 5:45 (NLT) Rain in a semi-arid agriculture area was a good thing. People read it and think God sends bad things to also. So when something bad happens people will quote this verse. I also like the Prodigal Son (It really is the Parable of the Older Brother). People miss the main point and think it is about bad children coming back to the Father (Its a side point) The main point is the Older Brother was mad that the Father was nice to the bad son.
- gvb 11y ago
  Tangential, but the most misquoted text is 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil". Most people elide "the love of" which totally changes the application.

fatlasp 11y ago

>My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. This also has SO much to do with OPs lifestyle / propensity to save. "The millionaire next door" goes a long way in explaining how even lower income households can accumulate much more wealth than many high income earners with simple lifestyle differences.

balls187 11y ago

> So typically American [sic]. That's one reason why Frost's poem is misinterpreted, due to American belief in destiny.

ljk 11y ago

aka grass is greener on the other side

fezz 11y ago

There are no guarantees that any path you take will be the right path for you by any metric, financial or otherwise.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

pjlegato 11y ago

> I just have to say this: So typically american. This remark would be considered highly offensive and racist if it were uttered about most nationalities. Would you say that to appraise the sentiments of, for example, a Jew? Of course not. Everyone would rightly condemn you for it.

_yosefk 11y ago
I dunno, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't mind this particular remark, and a sister comment claimed it seemed typically Chinese just as much and claimed to be Chinese themselves. One point here is that it's seemingly OK if it's not derogatory plus one is talking about one's own group. Another point is there's a continuum between nationality and culture, and it ought to be OK to point out that something is specific to a culture, and American specifically is very likely to be used to label a culture and not the people as in a bunch of guys and gals with specific genes. This is not to say that one ought to agree with grandparent's views on American culture, just that those views probably aren't racist. BTW I personally try not to say this sort of thing since people might be offended all too easily, so I guess I agree with you in that way.

munificent 11y ago

> I just have to say this: So typically american. That's funny. I'm from the US and when I got to that line, I found myself assuming the author was an immigrant or foreigner. Talking publicly about financial success isn't something I associate with people natively from the US. Certainly, among the people I grew up around, it would be considered unconscionably tasteless to do so.

dinkumthinkum 11y ago

I think referencing Frost is a little dismissive here. The writer has some pretty clear reasons and description of his regret that probably many should pay attention to.

cpeterso 11y ago

I recommend also reading "The Most Misread Poem in America": Most readers consider “The Road Not Taken” to be a paean to triumphant self-assertion (“I took the one less traveled by”), but the literal meaning of the poem’s own lines seems completely at odds with this interpretation. The poem’s speaker … has already admitted that the two paths “equally lay / In leaves” and “the passing there / Had worn them really about the same.” So the road he will later call less traveled is actually the road equally traveled. The two roads are interchangeable. http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misread-poem-in-america/ http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/09/11/the-most-misre...