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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

• api 11y ago
  A lot of this revolves around the new business model of using the Internet to lock everything down. Basically half your car, house, whatever will be in the cloud.
  • jacquesm 11y ago
    I refuse to buy products like that. If it doesn't operate stand alone then you can keep it.
    • awqrre 11y ago
      There should also be an easy way to disconnect your car from the network, because apparently, newer cars are always connected and reporting on your activities[1]. 1. http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1
      • bane 11y ago
        Or visa-versa, let me tap into that data connection for free for internet access.
        • awqrre 11y ago
          Most people probably would choose that option then, but either way, you should have to opt-in for the data sharing (whether or not it includes free Internet or other services...): Example: 1. Do you want to share data with us?* 2. Do you want to share data with us and get free Internet?* 3. Do you want to share data with us and get a free service service that requires data sharing (ie: ads as you drive past businesses)?* 4. None of the above. * Position, speed, microphone, car weight, Wi-Fi devices detected, etc..
• bri3d 11y ago
  The "paywalled workshop manual" requirements are common to every manufacturer. The only reason service manuals are available for free online for other modern cars is that they're ripped from the manufacturer's pay portal, not that the manufacturer is supplying them out of the goodness of their hearts. And the service prices are pretty much in line with other luxury cars at the price point. Not that that really defends Tesla, though. Cutting off an owner from dealer parts supply because their car is salvaged is unprecedented as far as I know. And the cutthroat attitude that every part of the car is a trade secret is ridiculous. I think the biggest challenge for Tesla when they release the Model 3 will be scaling up their service network while scaling down costs. $70,000 car owners are generally willing to pay $400-$800 every few years for a dealer service. $30,000 car owners aren't. And for most manufacturers, scaling dealer service is a franchise : they need to supply parts, training, and certification, not a whole service department. For Tesla, it's a brave entry into a challenging core business.
  • JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Do most manufacturers only supply manuals when legally compelled to?
    • burger_moon 11y ago
      If you pay for alldata or michelin ondemand you get access to all of that.
  • bavcyc 11y ago
    Although some manufacturer's are including service with the price of a car. If you drive 15k miles a year with oil changes every 3k (or 5k) miles, then you are spending $60-100 /year for oil changes. Depending on the vehicle you might be paying for a tune up and mileage interval servicing as well. $400-$800 isn't too bad for basic maintenance.
  • tamana 11y ago
    If the serivcis provided by the manufacturer, they ought to roll it into the purchase, $X + $Y/yr maintenance subscription
• kuschku 11y ago
  This is an interesting topic. And an interesting idea for a hack: Hacking a Tesla Model S to work without any connection to Big Brother, eh, Tesla, I mean.
  • martin_bech 11y ago
    But you want a connection to Big Brother, you want free super charging, you want software updates, you want free internet access and navigation, you want the free Spotify Account. My Car wouldnt have AutoPark, Summon, Traffic Aware Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Spotify, Autopilot, 50 ekstra Horse Power and so on, without the software updates the connection to Big Brother provides. (Euro Spec S85D)
    • dingo_bat 11y ago
      How is the extra HP related to the Big Brother connection?
      • sahat 11y ago
        I don't remember the details, but in one of the recent updates they increased the performance at top speed and initial start (below 3 mph). Prior to that, 85D and 90D (all-wheel drive configuration) got a significant boost to its 0-60 performance via a software update. Since all the hardware is controlled via a software firmware, they are able to tweak the voltage supply of each motor to decrease or increase output performance.
      • danans 11y ago
        Power output can be fine-tuned by software even in a conventional ICE vehicle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_control_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_control_unit Usually ECUs aren't updated online, but they can be updated by a dealer's computers.
      • martin_bech 11y ago
        Car was ordered with about 380HP, but delivered with a software update to unlock 428HP (Metric).
• charlesdenault 11y ago
  If Tesla's longterm business strategy is to build a fleet of autonomous cars that operate in fractional ownership/lease models, of course it makes sense to build a car that has a <10 year product life cycle. They can iterate quickly, release new versions, and not have legacy hardware on the market. If they use a buyback program similar to Apple's it might make sense for their particular demos. Time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the Model 3 has for a warranty, considering it's targeting a much broader market than the Model S/X.
  • teacup50 11y ago
    Iterate quickly? Hardware is not software. The environmental cost alone of building a new car is outrageous. In addition to which, the SV2.0 "iterate quickly" ideal turns consumers into guinea pigs for half-baked and half-broken products that will just be updated out from under them.
    • mdorazio 11y ago
      And yet Apple produces a new $500+ phone every single year, intentionally leaving behind customers who are still using hardware more than 3 years old. I would say that the software iteration business model is making inroads into the hardware market as well, including in the automotive space. The solution to your guinea pigs point is a lease model, in which customers get a new car every two years to stay on top of developments. Or when autonomous cars are available, don't own a car at all - outsource all the hardware upgrades and maintenance to the manufacturer and pay for the service of getting from point A to point B when you need it (ala Uber).
      • teacup50 11y ago
        What you're proposing isn't a good thing. It's an ugly, environmentally unfriendly, anti-consumer model. How many people are debt-financing their $800+ iPhone? How much value is that extracting from people, and what are the opportunity costs for them? What's the environmental impact of phones becoming nothing more than expensive bricks after 2-3 years due to lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM that prevents re-use? What happens when market choices disappear along with the very concept of ownership? This dystopian ideal of inescapable corporatism may be a commercially viable, but it's not remotely ethical.
• nraynaud 11y ago
  Interesting, I work in the wind turbine industry (at the margin, and since one month, I guess I'm an expert), and it's the same, there are interesting sensors and data everywhere, but everything is locked down, and as long as the warranty runs, the owner of the turbine is at the mercy of a very reluctant maker for every maintenance task. The owner can't use any of those very useful sensors to assess the state of the turbine, he has to call external consultants who will re-instrument the turbine with external sensors at great cost, when they could have just downloaded the existing data from their office to give a look at it.
  • brandmeyer 11y ago
    And then what happens when the mfr. goes out of business? For example, see Clipper Windpower.
    • nraynaud 11y ago
      I guess it's the same situation as when the warranty goes out, it's open bar on the internals but there is no documentation.
    • scblock 11y ago
      Specific to Clipper, the owner of the technology keeps enough money around to keep rebuilding the crazy gearboxes for current owners, while other spares can often be obtained directly from the actual component manufacturers. Third party service organizations like EDF Services or UpWind keep them running for you, or you can hire your own techs. Depending on the contract the relevant design information may also put in escrow in the event the manufacturer goes under and spares are no longer available. For comparison, Zond and US Windpower died more than a decade ago but the owners are still keeping the machines going. It can be a challenge but it's not the end of the world.
• valine 11y ago
  This is very troubling to read. I can understand that tampering with an automobile might pose safety concerns. I can also understand that Tesla is trying to protect its brand. That being said, the fact that Tesla is monitoring individual cars in a way that they can detect when you're used the Ethernet port is seriously Orwellian. I can only imagine this will get worse as cars become more autonomous.
  • zanny 11y ago
    The ability to potentially break your car has never stopped any other car in history from having an accessible engine compartment. This is basically in tandem with the John Deere story - the consequences of proprietary software bleed into the physical world and cause an incredible amount of difficulty for people who do not even recognize what the problem is. Tesla can only get away with all this because of how digital the car is in the first place.
    • codedokode 11y ago
      Replacing hardware parts and replacing software is diferent. Unofficial "jaibreak" software updates can contain errors or backdoors or intentionally written malicious functions programmed to be acivated on a special day.
      • userbinator 11y ago
        Unofficial replacement parts can also be of lower quality and fail just as dangerously if not more so (e.g. a suspension part can break and a wheel literally falls off.)
    • codedokode 11y ago
      Also the ability to replace software would allow criminals to bypass anti-theft mechanisms.
      • zanny 11y ago
        You can easily use the same mechanisms to secure personal computers to secure cars. Have a signing key for firmware uploads that the owner (or if they do not want the signing key, the dealer/manufacturer) controls.
• qume 11y ago
  This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still on the road (I just replaced the car window regulator - normally a few hundred $$, got it on amazon delivered for $23). Made to be serviced/repaired. Quite a bit of fun doing it too. You can pick one up for $2k and it will probably do another 200k miles no problem. And the best bit? FAR FAR more environmentally friendly than a new Tesla. I'll leave that up to you to figure out ;)
  • Swizec 11y ago
    You should look up crash tests between cars considered safe in 1994 and modern cars. I saw one for two Renault Espace models. The old one was so crumply compared to the new one, that the new one didn't even deploy airbags because there was no need. Both got top safety ratings when new. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-og https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-og
    • qume 11y ago
      Great point. I have watched hundreds (not exaggerating). Sobering. New in general is much better than old. But, it gets complicated. The strength of the cage the passengers are in hasn't improved much, what has is how they behave in very specific crash tests. Go outside of that (go off a bank and roll down the hill over and over) and you'll find an old GL750 Volvo or '79 W116 merc will still have kept it's integrity in the passenger compartment (the doors will probably still open) where most modern cars would be crushed, passengers included. Basically the bottom line is if you're going to buy an older car, get one that is still considered safe today. That leaves you with all mercs, volvos, most BMWs and Saabs from the post-airbag era. And get ABS - avoid the accident in the first place.
    • qume 11y ago
      Oh, and one more thing. Go walk around the yard of a tow company. Be prepared to feel sick. You'll come away with the conclusion that the standard crash tests, which are well designed for common accidents, are still just a small minority of serious accidents. And the most horrifying thing that I came away with is the number of wrecks where there is 'car' where the passengers should be. Even in trucks and SUVs. The strongest cars ever built historically are still the strongest cars on the road, even though there have been some great innovations that they miss out on. This is just for fun really, not trying to make a point with it, but this is an old Volvo destroying other cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95yOXPoR_s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95yOXPoR_s
• gcb0 11y ago
  it's a $100+k car. it's a luxury, anyway you look at it, not a necessity for anyone. it's not the same as a car but the same as a money pit Lamborghini. stop trying to make Tesla happen so hard, internet yuppies.
• lacker 11y ago
  None of this seems "throwaway" to me. It just means that rather than build a product that ends up being repaired by a distributed army of mechanics, they are going "full stack" and aiming to repair everything in-house. To me that seems like the ideal system - some people like the author might enjoy repairing their own cars, but I would rather not.
  • MechSkep 11y ago
    Yep, and it makes sense for Tesla to do this. It's a new product, and the information they collect from maintenance and inspections is going to be invaluable for future revs.
    • wernercd 11y ago
      Is it going to be more valuable than the bad press that they will get when it turns out people get burned by all these restrictions? Or the lost sales? That's the million dollar question.
  • vonmoltke 11y ago
    First off, you may not want to repair your own car but the practice is pretty widespread, at least with simpler repairs. That's why the US has four nationwide auto parts store chains plus some big box stores like Wal-Mart that carry parts. Second, this is not just about shade tree mechanics. This type of vertical integration means you have a sole source for parts and work if you buy a Tesla. Tesla can thus charge as much as their customers will bear without driving them to buy someone else's car. They have no incentive to pass supply chain or servicing efficiencies on to their customers. It's an arrangement the other car companies only dream of, which is why they keep trying to throw roadblocks in the way of third-party mechanics and parts manufacturers.
  • carlivar 11y ago
    Now imagine Apple got rid of independent repair shops (they are already heading in this direction pretty much). There would be outrage, and there's already unease with Apple's direction in these areas. Why does Tesla get a pass?
• pravda 11y ago
  I don't think anyone who buys a Telsa for 100 grand cares the slightest bit about being forced to pay overpriced dealer service rates. And it's not like a 'worn out' Telsa is going into the car crusher. Every part is going to be pulled from it and sold on eBay. I look forward to being able to buy a Telsa motor for cheap on eBay. Maybe in 2026.
  • gambiting 11y ago
    "And it's not like a 'worn out' Telsa is going into the car crusher." Well, it actually might. The article mentions it - if a car is deemed a "write off" by the insurance company(because cost of repair is quoted as >50% of the value of the car) then only Tesla can re-activate it. It's crazy, my dad used to have a car repair shop any buy dozens of cars that were "written off" by insurance companies, he would fix them, they would go through an official check-up process to be allowed on the road and that was it. He never had to ask Mercedes or Honda or Audi to "reactivate" their cars.
    • pravda 11y ago
      What happens to cars that are written-off and not bought by your dad or someone else who wants to fix them up and get them back on the road? They go into the car crusher, but only after every part with any value is stripped from them. (Yes, I agree that a functioning Telsa car is worth more then a bunch of Telsa parts) If Mercedes could prevent people from buying written-off Mercedes cars, fixing them up and re-selling them, they certainly would! Telsa can do this, and they have a phony-baloney reason for doing this (safety! protecting the children!), so it makes sense for them to do it. And also, this is good for Telsa-buyers. If I spend 100-large, or 70-large on a Telsa, I don't want the hoi polloi to be able to purchase value-priced Telsas! It's a win-win-win. Telsa gets more money, Telsa-buyers get a more exclusive brand, and hackers get cheaper Telsa parts on eBay!
  • Vik1ng 11y ago
    Not every Tesla is 100k. Some start out below 70k when you consider tax initiatives. With gas savings etc. those are things people will consider who might have gotten a 5-Series otherwise. Also used car market. people who pay 100k often don't drive it 8, 10 or more years - they get something new before that. Person who buys a $50k CPO car and maybe soon even lower will care. Then there is the 35k Model 3 whee it will matter a lot more
• phkahler 11y ago
  This is dumb. Can you replace the tie rods, brake pads, tires? So long as the regular maintenance items can be handled I don't see a problem. Electronic parts on other cars are getting herd to replace too - they do things like record the VIN code upon first use and refuse to work in a different car, all in the name of anti-theft. Also, as people get excited about self driving cars, safety becomes a huge concern. You have throttle, brakes, steering, camera systems, radar, all working together to achieve that. You're not going to be tampering with any of that stuff on any car in the near future. So if regular maintenance items can be replaced, and body damage can be repaired, I don't see the complaint.
  • mdorazio 11y ago
    Yes, basic maintenance like you describe is entirely possible to do on your own or at any normal mechanic. Body work can be done at normal high-end body shops as well, with the caveat that getting replacement panels from Tesla is expensive and challenging due to their limited production capacity. Source: Friend's Tesla recently needed some body work to repair a dented door.
• sklogic 11y ago
  Not sure singling out Tesla is fair. Pretty much all the modern (built in 21st century) cars are far less serviceable and far less modular than they used to be before. The military designs are the only exception from this unfortunate trend, for the obvious reasons.
  • mcv 11y ago
    I've always loved the idea of the Citroen 2CV, which was famously easy to repair (sometimes with some string and chewing gum), and trivial to modify. But it's an old car and is not being made anymore, and no modern car really seems to fit that niche.
• matt_wulfeck 11y ago
  why wouldn't an electric car be easier to service? A combustible engine has so many moving parts, fuel pump, filter, oil changes, regulator, etc etc. an electric car is just a battery and an electric engine, which is actually a pretty old peice of technology. I do concede that the battery is a pretty complex piece of engineering. My fear is that DRM "authorized" replacements will become like the toner cartridges of the future.
  • CalRobert 11y ago
    The article discusses the difficulty of servicing a Tesla at length. Perhaps you should read it?
  • mywittyname 11y ago
    In practice, manufactures of EVs haven't been able to achieve the kind of reliability that most other auto makers have. You can buy a Camry and expect 100k miles on the drivetrain with reasonable maintenance costs. Edmund's had needed four drive unit replacements in their Model S to go half that far. ICEs are theoretically more complicated, but a few hundred million man-hours of refinement over the past 100 or so years have made them quite reliable.
• brandmeyer 11y ago
  > A lot of Tesla fans claim that electric vehicles are inherently superior, because with fewer moving parts, they'll be able to stay on the road basically forever - no piston rings to wear, no transmissions to fail, no oil to change. There are at least two major components that "wear out" in power electronics - capacitors and power transistors. Traditional vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation also has a wear-out mechanism. Electrolytic capacitors have both an electrolyte breakdown and dryout at extended temperatures and voltage. Film capacitors also have a (much slower) dielectric breakdown. Power transistors have two wear-out mechanisms: one that is based on thermal cycling of the wire bonds and one that is based on thermal cycling of the solder between the transistor and direct-copper-bonded substrate. Datacenter-scale UPS addresses both of these with field-replaceable modules. The main AC and DC capacitor banks are replaceable in advance of failure, and power transistors are field replaceable in much larger power modules, typically only after a failure. Vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation is typically not completely void-free. The high dV/dt that a direct-connected inverter imposes on the windings causes large repetitive voltage spikes across the winding insulation. The voltage spikes trigger partial discharge in the voids, which in turn erodes the insulation. IMO, long-lived electric cars should at least have capacitor banks that are schedule-replaced, and drive modules that are replaceable after failure. With the level of diagnostics and history monitoring available today, we should be able to replace both components in advance of failure as well. Do electric cars have lower maintenance, longer life, and higher reliability than ICE cars? Definitely, probably, and probably, respectively. But "lower", "longer", and "higher" don't mean "zero", "forever", and "infinite".
  • jacquesm 11y ago
    Those voids also allow the wiring of the windings to flex slightly under the changing magnetic flux leading to eventual insulation failure.
    • B1FF_PSUVM 11y ago
      Most big-ass transformers also produce an audible hum, meaning something is moving enough to push air around.
• ryandrake 11y ago
  One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threatening call to the "owner" after he tries to get diagnostic information from his own car [1], well that's so far beyond crossing the line it's not even funny. I think we're going to start seeing "jailbroken" Teslas soon after they start falling out of their warranty period. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to actually own what they paid for. 1: http://gas2.org/2014/04/14/road-slightly-traveled-hacking-tesla-model-s/ http://gas2.org/2014/04/14/road-slightly-traveled-hacking-te...
  • deleted 11y ago
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  • gioele 11y ago
    > To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission? If you break your engine control module, who, if not the original manufacturer, can provide you a new one that works for your car? (Serious question, no sarcasm.)
    • atomical 11y ago
      I think it's possible to buy an ECU from a parts dealer. You wouldn't have to necessary go directly through the manufacturer. You might also be able to get one from a junkyard.
      • chrisbennet 11y ago
        It's not uncommon for modern ECU's to need to be "coded" to work with the car.
• al_biglan 11y ago
  Interesting, but Tesla is both just getting started and "feeling the space" in the auto industry. They have taken pride in taking a different approach to traditional car companies and I imagine some of the wording around the Extended Warranty is simply being new and not copy-pasting examples from other companies. Also, Tesla isn't making cars for everyone (yet) but instead focusing on expensive/luxury cars. Rather than compare against GM/Honda/etc. How do they compare against Maserati/Aston Martin/etc.? Finally, as a young company, it may indeed be their _goal_ to build cars that last forever, but the first few generations they are still pushing the envelope of (their) understanding. In this case, bringing ell cars back to their repair centers may be the "right" way to build this experience into their future automobiles. So... "yeah, they aren't making cars that will last more than N years unless you, as an owner, are prepared to sink a bunch of cash into achieving this" It may be more interesting to watch the auto that replaces the Model S. Both in terms of their timeframe for introducing new models (beyond expanding into different classes of vehicles) as well as how they adopt what they learn into more fundamental design changes. Thank you to all those cutting edge people willing to buy Teslas now. I'll wait 5-10 years till they get mainstream and keep my Honda and Toyota on the road for 250k miles :-)
• sremani 11y ago
  Great article, very forward looking and constructive criticism. Tesla is a young company with Silicon Valley ethos, it does not surprise me, they are treating Cars like Software. Where you are licensed to use software but do not own it and how that world view may or may not work. I am just wondering since Volt is from Old guard, its chances are better because the maintainability is a bit more traditional (but not all Volts can be repaired at any GM dealership). We may need a different model for EVs and PHEVs. http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579 http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579 Logically it may extend to other EVs and PHEVs like Model S, but here is a real world volt which crossed 300K miles (the driver has a long commute, its kind of real world validation of longevity of EVs/PHEVs)
  • ams6110 11y ago
    they are treating Cars like Software. Where you are licensed to use software but do not own it Why do they sell the cars at all then? Why not just lease them?
• mizzao 11y ago
  It seems like at least one of the problems mentioned here is going to be common to many cars in the future: more and more of the vehicle will involve software rather than hardware, and as such is less transparent to the end-user. It's not just Tesla customers who will be dealing with this.
• pcarolan 11y ago
  This sounds a lot like the open vs closed system debate we had/(have?) with computers. I'm glad that in my youth I could wrench on the internals of a PC and I'm glad that in my 30s I never have to because my Mac 'just works'. Also, this debate is older than I am: http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0060589469 http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry...
  • loopbit 11y ago
    If you had read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance you'd known that it has very little to do with actual motorcycle maintenance, apart of using it as a tool to make its point.
    • wetmore 11y ago
      This is a kind of dickish way to reply. Yeah it's not the original point but there is a discussion of this issue in it IIRC.
      • loopbit 11y ago
        It may have come across dickish, It was not my intention. I had no time to go in more detail and just left it as a note. As for the issue at hand, yes, it's mentioned nearly at the beginning of the book, when the narrator is discussing the motorcycles each character has and why they chose it, mentioning the two views[0]. If I recall correctly, there's no discussion, it's simply there to give an example of the concept of quality that the author is trying to define. Anyone thinking that the book has anything to do with actual motorcycle maintenance (or worse, trying to use the advice) didn't understood the ideas and concepts of the book. [0] The tinkerer, open view, exemplified with an old motorcycle (of which I don't remember the make) vs the "it just works", closed view, using a brand new BMW.
    • pcarolan 11y ago
      Dust off your copy and go reread it under a tree.
  • 11y ago
• Spooky23 11y ago
  It's pretty easy. They don't want an aftermarket for the cars because the batteries will wear out, essentially cannot be replaced, and you'll see lots of Teslas in the side of the road. I still don't understand why these cars exist. You pay a premium that vastly exceeds the fuel savings vs a comperable gasoline vehicle. The warm fuzzy feeling associated with saving the earth is low value to me. They also aren't magical machines that don't break. A guy on my campus bought one about 18 mos one and it's been towed (presumably to NJ or Boston) 2-3 times. There goes the warm fuzzy feeling about saving the earth!
  • mikeash 11y ago
    Why do you say the batteries cannot be replaced? Swapping a battery literally takes five minutes. The cost of a new one is high, but will likely come down. As for why these cars exist, it's simple: they're awesome cars. They're powerful and quiet and have advanced technology. Never mind environmental concerns, not having to visit the gas station is just very convenient. Not emitting (local) pollution is a nice bonus, but it's pretty far down the list.
    • Spooky23 11y ago
      They can't be replaced because they are extremely expensive, and no mechanic is going to touch these thing without manuals and tools.
      • mikeash 11y ago
        Expensive is different from "can't," and there's definitely one company whose mechanics can replace the battery.
        • Spooky23 11y ago
          It's all about ROI. You can make a case for almost any conventional repair, save a transmission or engine overhaul. When a battery replacement exceeds the value of the vehicle, and the one source of mechanics is incentivized to sell a new car, the economics will never make sense.
• AndrewKemendo 11y ago
  So maybe this is a dumb question but does this mean that whomever builds an "open" EV will win in the long run? My guess is not and people will just get locked into their "platform" vehicle in the same way that you are locked into Apple devices.
  • neffy 11y ago
    Not a dumb question at all. I would say that it means that there's a very real business opportunity for anyone who wants to compete with Tesla and takes the open route. Beyond that who knows, but the very fact that they're shutting down analysis as much as possible (they probably don't really care that much about hackers, it's the reverse engineering shops that all the major car manufacturers run that would be their big fear), suggests that what they have is easy to copy. Or reinvent. History, I suspect, will be on the side of the battery makers.
  • pjc50 11y ago
    I think you're right; openness is a cost to the manufacturer and a missed opportunity for market lockin.
• tokipin 11y ago
  People used to repair televisions but at some point it became cheaper to just buy a new one due to the tech/manufacturing being sufficiently evolved and commoditized/cheap, as well as the issues involved with repairing more complex circuitry. Electric cars have the same potential, I think, because of their inherent simplicity. That potential already seems clear given that battery costs will keep falling.
  • seiji 11y ago
    VCR repair too. The big thing nobody talks about (or some people even brag about) is how Tesla records your entire driving history to improve their future products. It's kinda creepy and you have no option but to obey if you want the Tesla Experience. Other companies are trying to "catch up" in this way too like how Google Android Auto Car Integration requires manufactures allow Google Android Auto Car Integration to send live, real-time individual car performance data back to Google HQ so they can also analyze it all for their own purposes. There's basically no legitimate reason why a 3rd party music player app requires your car to transmit real time acceleration data, sensor data, fluid levels, and seat positions back to Google.
  • MrOwen 11y ago
    I think you're right in that it's a similar situation in terms of tech getting cheaper/better as time progresses but I there's an order of magnitude price difference between these two scenarios (TVs vs cars) that most people won't ever be able to reconcile. There would have to come a time where buying a car is on the same level as buying a new TV for your scenario to be true, and I just don't ever think that will be the case.
• pyb 11y ago
  After reading the article, really I don't think Tesla is offering particularly worse conditions than any other manufacturer. Their 8 year guarantee is actually pretty inclusive, and now it's transferrable as well. The lack of indie garages is the only item in his list I agree with, but things could change in the future, as the pool of ex-Tesla mechanics grows.
• greggman 11y ago
  Given the cars have various levels of self driving it would seem like the moment you mod your car Tesla would want nothing to do with you because you've changed something that could cause a crash. That seems in some way different from a non-self driving car. Of course you should be able to do anything you want with your car but would it be unreasonable if Tesla basically disabled all their software and services at that moment? Basically making it clear if you mod the car they want no responsibility in what happens when it's self driving.
• protomyth 11y ago
  How is "Tampering with the Vehicle and its systems, including installation of non-Tesla accessories or parts or their installation, or any damage directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from the installation or use of non-Tesla parts or accessories;" not a violation of Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act?
  • arkem 11y ago
    There's an exception if you can convince the FTC that the product will only work correctly with branded parts. Take a look at 15 USC 2302(c): https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2302 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2302
    • protomyth 11y ago
      Has that ever been applied to car parts?
• vvanders 11y ago
  I don't think things are as dire as he makes it out: 1. Small amount of cars on the road so there's limited incentive for aftermarket parts. 2. People already do brakes/tires/suspension/etc. It's a car after all. 3. I wouldn't want to get near the powertrain. 425kw(~400V @ 1,000 Amps) will kill you if you touch something that you shouldn't. I think it'll be a bigger issue once we see the Model 3 on the road.
  • TD-Linux 11y ago
    Your computer power supply has a ~400 volt rail in it. Are you unwilling to ever open a desktop computer? The Tesla battery has contactors inside of it, so you'll only have 400V live when the car is on. Additionally, assuming the HV is floating relative to the chassis, you need to touch two spots at different potentials to actually get shocked. That said, it looks like this is an attempt to prevent service of a lot of non-powertrain components, considering that the Tesla owner in the article got a letter for connecting just to the ethernet port.
    • rsync 11y ago
      "Your computer power supply has a ~400 volt rail in it. Are you unwilling to ever open a desktop computer?" Not at 1000 amps, it doesn't ...
      • TD-Linux 11y ago
        Right, but how many amps are flowing through a wire isn't going to change how badly it electrocutes you.
        • vl 11y ago
          Actually, it's other way around - amps matter a great deal. 400 volts with low amps feels like a sting. I've touched 25K volt contact once (by mistake), while unpleasant (and some damaged skin), managed just fine - cause very low amps.
• nkw 11y ago
  I'm glad someone wrote about this. I have a deposit on a Model X, and this is the single largest issue that is making me lean towards not buying the vehicle. I occasionally enjoy doing my own maintenance or repair on stuff I own and my present vehicle (close to a Model X equivalent but dinosaur powered and German) has been pleasant in that regard. There is nice fully functional (though Windows) third-party diagnostic software available, the actual service documentation is available to owners (for a pretty reasonable fee), there is a bit of competition on parts price amongst dealers (though ultimately only within a certain range as they still originate with one manufacturer) and I haven't once felt like instead of owning the car I merely have a license from the manufacturer to use it. I worry after the warranty expires that I will be at the mercy of Tesla for any service and support, which is an unknown quantity right now. I've seen the terrible spot a product owner can be left in when a manufacturer decides (for whatever reason) that service and support are now their primary profit center. Not only are you screwed in that your product now costs a fortune to maintain, your product is now essentially worthless for resale because everyone knows the cost to maintain and repair it makes it uneconomical. (See, e.g. several private aircraft companies which went bankrupt)
• imh 11y ago
  This seems to be part of a larger trend towards controlling the things we own. Cell phones, tractors, cars, and I'm sure tons of other things are moving this way, where they're trying to make it illegal to root/jailbreak/service your own property. Cell phones seem to be trying to move away from ownership in general. What's the solution?
• dkhenry 11y ago
  This article is spot on, but the author fails to account for the fact that on _most_ new cars, your in the same boat. Unless its a maintenance item, your not going to be able to replace it with anything but the manufacture's blessing. The biggest difference is there are a lot more maintenance parts on a conventional car, so you have more of an opportunity to replace things. It was my understanding that the only true maintenance part on the Tesla was the wiper blades.
  • jonknee 11y ago
    > It was my understanding that the only true maintenance part on the Tesla was the wiper blades. And the brakes / tires.
    • tclmeelmo 11y ago
      And the HVAC system. I don't know but wouldn't be surprised if the HVAC system on Teslas, in addition to the cabin environment, had some responsibility for the battery and motor thermal management too.
• njharman 11y ago
  Haters gonna hate and short sellers gonna drum up FUD.
  • wetmore 11y ago
    So you're saying this guy's blog post is part of a conspiracy to drive down the price of Tesla stock?
• callesgg 11y ago
  The first thing that hit my mind was that they are doing it the apple way, apple is doing quite fine with its locked devices. like most engineers I like to play with and explore my technical equipment but for most people it is just a hasle.
  • soared 11y ago
    I had the same thought. How many people would ever even consider maintaining their own car? I bet its insignificant in the face of Tesla's target market.
• micheljansen 11y ago
  A lot of this is not that uncommon for other car manufacturers as well. The "Premium" warranty of a used BMW also depends on the car being serviced at an authorised repairer. Yes, it's the manufacturer trying to be more of an "integrated" service provider and keeping the resale value up, but it also ends when the car gets older. Most of those cars the go on to lead a long life with aftermarket parts and repairs.
  • ghaff 11y ago
    I think the question is how practical third-party service will be (by individuals or independent garages). As you suggest, the common wisdom that I've always heard is that, if you want to hold onto a luxury car past the warranty/extended warranty timeframe, that's great and can be a fun and cost-effective auto--but only if you're handy and willing to spend the time or have an indie mechanic who you trust. Otherwise, dealer service will eat you alive.
• ck2 11y ago
  So super-liberal-progressive Vermont doesn't have a "right to repair" law? Interesting Mass. is the first. Should be a federal law.
  • castratikron 11y ago
    I was delighted to read that a right to repair law exists in at least one state. I've been working to get one passed here (MN).
• mhandley 11y ago
  If the resale value of an out-of-warranty Tesla ends up being essentially zero, the new ones will start to look like a pretty poor investment. This will impact Tesla's sales. You can be pretty sure that Tesla will rectify this eventually if they want to stay in business in the face of emerging competition from other electric cars.
• rebootthesystem 11y ago
  Inherent issues with anything battery powered: - I have 20 year old grid powered drills, saws, routers, sawzalls, sanders - They all work and in perfect condition - Same period: Three sets of battery powered drills - Technology changes: NiCd to Lithium - Battery pack voltage/form-factor EOL - Aftermarket batteries expensive crap - Good motor, gearbox, chuck discarded - Environmental impact of early EOL? The Tesla scenario: - Will they be around in 20 years? - Will there be any parts for current cars? - Will you have access to service manuals, software and information? The battery packs: - Technology and chemistry will evolve - No reason to make packs with 20 year old tech - Will Tesla guarantee replacement packs in 10 to 20 years? - Could be vehicle lifetime limiting factor - Shame to crunch a perfectly good chassis, motor, etc. - Potentially significant environmental impact Working on electric cars: - Most people not qualified, even most techies - 400~500 V DC systems are deadly dangerous - Electric cars will be the domain of experts, not hobbyists - High voltage, high power, high energy density system can do horrific things in accidents - Who wants to be the responsible party? After market: - Potential for advanced after-market companies - More efficient, smaller motor controllers - Smaller, lighter, more energy-dense battery packs - On-board computers and entertainment systems - Might not be viable market for another 20 years - Tesla (and others) likely not interested in doing this themselves, they want to sell new cars Electric car market: - In 20 years all makers will have electric cars - Multiple models per maker, multiple choices - Buying from established makers gives you massive sales and support infrastructure - As market grows Tesla might have trouble reaching scale - Tesla has a 3 to 5 year window to become mainstream - If they fail at that they might well become irrelevant - Battery manufacturers (Panasonic, etc.) will support large car makers - Car manufacturers know how to make cars by the millions - Ford made a million F-150 trucks last year - That's just one maker and one model - They have the factories, people, process and product know-how - Electric cars far easier to build than IC cars - Tesla might be reduced to the Ferrari/McLaren of the industry Better for the environment: - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery manufacturing - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery disposal - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty electricity generation - It's like leather: Process is dirty and disgusting but the end product looks beautiful and clean and nobody thinks about how it got there - Where is reality of environmental impact of 100 million pure electric cars when considering the entire chain of events that leads to manufacturing, using and retiring one? - I don't know the answer - Point: Don't be too sure you are "clean" - Maybe you are...by a little bit In all, today, analytically, I don't think electrics make much sense yet. Good for you if you are OK burning cash on one of these things. Thank you. I think. The inflection point for this industry is 100% connected to better battery technology. No other technology matters one bit. We know how to make cars, electric motors, transmissions and electronics. We need better and cheaper batteries. The minute a new battery technology (super-capacitors?) emerges with twice the energy in half the volume at half the cost we will have dozens of pure electrics to choose from. The infrastructure will be built as soon as companies can start making money with them.
• Animats 11y ago
  Just think of it as customer engagement. It's like calling slavery "job assurance".
• greendesk 11y ago
  I remembered this story when reading the article: A boy wants to repair his dad's printer. As he troubleshoots the problem, he calls a repair shops with the information on the printer. The repair shops gives him guidance on how to repair the printer on his own and sends the parts for it. The boy asks: "Why would you do it? Would not you make more money by asking me to have it repaired at the shop?" "Oh, but when people try to repair it on their own they usually spend much more money after their attempted repair." I have been burned many times by car repairmen. A misdiagnosed or malice repair is a very big nuisance. I rather trust official repairs than garage shops. If I had a Tesla, I would lean towards using the official service.
  • protomyth 11y ago
    "I rather trust official repairs than garage shops." Had a Chevy and took it in for an official repair on the recall. They didn't do it correctly. Had it in the shop because the belt broke (not timing) and they asked if it I had taken it in for the recall. I was a bit peeved to find out the official shop had not only messed up the recall repair on the brakes, they had actually broke some other stuff. Took my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake to get the door repaired. Common problem on that model, and the local repair shop (Harold's) decided ordering a $120 plastic part was all kinds of dumb, so he made an aluminum version of the part. It never broke again. Its about people and incentives. There are very important consumer protections in not letting the manufactures control everything. I have seen bad manufacture shops and good ones and good and bad independent shops. Its about people. If we can keep manufactures from controlling all repairs with decent legislation, we might be able to keep a strong and healthy 3rd party repair capability. Otherwise, its just one more thing we don't actually own and the incentive is to build things that will break.
  • bliti 11y ago
    What guarantee do you have that Tesla has has a higher than average repair success? Other, more experienced auto makers are also hit or miss.
• kayman 11y ago
  I don't care to own the car. From my point of view, it's a service I want access to, to get me from point A to point B. Tesla makes that process enjoyable. Because Tesla leveraged software, like an app, I want Tesla to handle the updates for life of the car.
• Johnnybe 11y ago
  And now I know for certain I will never purchase a Tesla. What a shame.
• deagle50 11y ago
  Lease and all the complaints go out the window. Why buy when battery density keeps going up? Not to mention the autopilot features and other tech. Model S well equipped lease is <$1000, why the hell anyone without f-u money would shell out $100k upfront I'll never know.
• norea-armozel 11y ago
  There's always been a push in the automotive industry to make parts in cars that the average person can't replace or repair easily. If anything, this makes more money for the automakers (like Tesla) because they can setup all kinds of service licenses and the like at their leisure. And if a particular product line gets too long in the tooth, then you just killed off any authorized servicing and parts. Now you got an instant customer if they keep thinking it's worth it. Especially if Tesla were to institute some sort of trade in program that would be cheap to finance but great for PR especially if it touts the recycling angle. Frankly, I'm surprised no one would think such a possible outcome was going to happen. Elon's not dumb, he's a businessman first and foremost. Telsa cars aren't a charity. You buy them to feel good, they are nice fun cars to drive, then when the time comes you're likely to get bored with it anyways and want to trade for the newest model because you're a good little consumer, right?
• tinhangliu 11y ago
  Putting a lithium battery on a traditional car doesn't make the mobility industry more sustainable. Tesla's are still going to end up in car graveyards.. To be sustainable, we need to rethink how cars are designed from the bottom up. Especially to sustain the growth in car-as-a-service (i.e. Higher usage rates) we need modular design to have replaceable and upgradable parts, without throwing away what works. That's why we created OSVehicle,the first open source electric vehicle platform. www.osvehicle.com