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Tim Sweeney: Microsoft wants to monopolise games development on PC

260 points by saint-loup 11y ago

glaberficken 11y ago
I have a kind of mixed feeling about this. So if you do a mobile OS its ok to have app walled gardens, but on Windows you can´t? Won't we always have the "option" of going the Linux way? I think it's really telling that Valve has been investing heavily in developing it's Linux gaming econsystem, they saw this comming a mile away.
- nabla9 11y ago
  Microsoft OS has monopoly power in the PC market. They have been in the court for actions like this before [1]. The difference between mobile and PC is that if hardware maker has their own closed system, what they have is basically an appliance. PC's are generic item build from standards and Microsoft has produced an open operating system with large markets for software running on their OS. They can't just close it on a whim and abuse their monopoly power position [1]. ---- [1.] Findings of Fact in U.S. v. Microsoft Corporation, Civil Action No. 98-1232 (TPJ) and State of New York, ex re. Attorney General Eliot Spitzer et al., v. Microsoft Corporation, Civil Action No. 98-1233 (TPJ), November 5, 1999. "Monopoly power" is not the same as monopoly. One must always point this out when saying it or discussion is derailed.
  - raesene2 11y ago
    But surely they're not closing off the pc platform, just potentially restricting what can happen on their OS. You can still use PCs with linux without any lock in. Long gone are the days when Microsoft was a monopoly on client computing devices, these days we have linux, Mac osx, chrome OS, Android, steamOS and iOS. Several of these other platforms are already closed to one degree on another, with iOS probably being the most restrictive, so I'm not sure I see Microsoft as being dominent enough to warrant a claim of monopoly power any more
    - frik 11y ago
      They are, PC manufacturer have to lock down the hardware for Win10. Good luck trying to install Linux/FreeBSD/etc on a new notebook. Microsoft is using their desktop monopoly and OEM cartel to lock down the platform. reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
      - raesene2 11y ago
        I have bought and installed linux on laptops from hp and Lenovo with no problems at all. Also you can buy laptops from Dell with linux pre-installed. Can you provide any citations for the assertion that Microsoft are currently (2016) forcing hardware companies to tie their products to Windows?
        frik 11y ago
        Can you cite your "no problem at all"? That statement is just wrong, if the hardware shipped with Win8/8.1/10 pre installed. Such devices come with a locked down UEFI, the "legacy" BIOS is deactivated and often hidden behind shortcuts that one has to press during boot. Also it depends if you bought a business or consumer hardware.
        raesene2 11y ago
        Of course I can as it was my personal experience. On the other hand you made a general assertion about their actions which really needs a citation. Reinstalling an os is a technical task, which requires some knowledge to do effectively. Having been doing this for 25 years or so, I can safely say it's easier now than it used to be...
        frik 11y ago
        Good for you. You could provide photos of your UEFI settings and or BIOS settings, and of course you had to change several of them and hold down specific buttons. And no, it was easier before Microsoft introduced Windows 8 and 10. It was very easy, just insert a CD/DVD with a boot-image. Read about UEFI and "secure boot" came along with Windows 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
  - Aleman360 11y ago
    "Microsoft OS has monopoly power in the PC market." Is there a legal difference between a "PC" and a tablet or phone? They all seem like general purpose computers to me. From that perspective, MS definitely doesn't have a monopoly.
    - hollerith 11y ago
      A large fraction of the employees of corporations and other organizations need laptop or desktop computers: it would be impractical for them to use tablets or phones instead. Only a very small fraction of those employees use any OS on these laptops and desktops except for Windows, and that small fraction is concentrated in the computer industry, e.g., Google and Oracle (if they are in fact mostly non-Windows; I don't know for sure) which means that the monopoly is even stronger in the industries other than the computer industry than the global numbers would suggest.
- Mayzie 11y ago
  >I think it's really telling that Valve has been investing heavily in developing it's Linux gaming econsystem "Investing heavily"? They only have a handful of developers working on the system!
  - shmerl 11y ago
    I guess you missed their major contribution to the Vulkan project.
- shmerl 11y ago
  > Won't we always have the "option" of going the Linux way? Indeed, it's the only option that will remain really. And luckily things are improving for Linux gaming now.
- maxsilver 11y ago
  > So if you do a mobile OS its ok to have app walled gardens, but on Windows you can´t? For what it's worth, a lot of us don't think it's "OK" on a mobile OS either.
deleted 11y ago
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sfunk1x 11y ago
Rings a bit hollow. Easy solution - don't develop games for Windows or Xbox!
- turbohz 11y ago
  That's what sparked the creation of SteamOS. Let's hope developers get onboard and hardware vendors start (seriously) supporting the platform.
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    Steam is pretty much what windows is trying to do.
    - deleted 11y ago
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- toyg 11y ago
  That's pretty much commercial suicide, at this point in time, for developers like him.
  - bitmapbrother 11y ago
    No it's not. There's always Sony, Nintendo and, of course, Steam - which will be void of UWP garbage.
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      You don't seem to understand that UWP is a frontal assault on Steam.
      - bitmapbrother 11y ago
        And you and Microsoft need to understand that you cannot win against Steam as is evidenced by their embarrassing Windows gaming failures. You either embrace Steam or you're relegated to irrelevance.
staticelf 11y ago
I really like the initiative of UWP but I agree with the author that you should be able to install UWP-apps from any source. Is it really true that you can't? Maybe it's time for game developers like Epic to support Linux and make gamers choose linux as their desktop, that would probably create a surge of new users and contributions to the linux desktop development and maybe finally provide a "real" alternative. Why I am running Windows is mostly because I can't stand all the issues with Linux desktops and that graphic drivers and games barely exist on the platform, I am loving Valves support though.
- mdip 11y ago
  Maybe it's time for game developers like Epic to support Linux and make gamers choose Linux as their desktop In the current market, this assumes a few things that simply don't work. Platform adoption drives game software development on the PC side of things. Though some of us do, most people do not purchase a high-end PC exclusively for games. They purchase it to do something they need and might add a high-end graphics adapter to allow them to play games. This often means buying a Windows box. If a game developer released a great game exclusive to Linux, that game would be played by very few people (and would be screwed by all of those graphics issues you mention). It's possible if Steam OS and Valve's platform gains wide adoption that game developers will focus more on Linux, though. The economics of game development seem positively scary to me as a software developer. For major titles, they throw millions of dollars into development in hopes that a game, costing around $50 (and widely pirated) will generate revenue for about a year. And the success of a game is largely determined by factors that are risky, similar to other visual art-forms. Maybe the topic isn't one anyone cares about? That money is flushed down the toilet. Contrasting that with business software which can cost well over $50 and have a lifetime of several years, it doesn't surprise me that game companies look to subscription MMORPGs, paid DLC to existing content and in-game (effectively "paid-for cheats") to make money. Getting them to be willing to spend more to support a one-off platform with existing difficulties supporting high-end graphics scenarios is unlikely. Consider that a business case for an expensive piece of software like Adobe's Creative Cloud could be made far more easily. The software even has native support for Mac OS and Windows, yet they are unwilling to support Linux. That makes me a lot less hopeful we'll ever see great games running in Ubuntu without Wine.
mdip 11y ago
Maybe I missed it in reading the article but what, specifically, is not available to developers if they choose to write the application against the typical Win32 APIs? Are they, for instance, making certain hardware accelerated APIs only available for UWP apps? If so, are these APIs designed in such a way as to prevent someone from creating an API that runs on top of Win32 that exposes the capabilities (i.e. by requiring drivers be locked down in such a way as to disallow interaction outside of UWP)? I can't see a way outside of driver feature lock-out that the OS could effectively prevent game developers from developing games the way they have been in the past. I'm guessing this has a lot to do with their "Write it for Xbox One and it'll work on Windows 10, too" goals, but that feels more like a convenience than a lock-in -- games are a constant exercise of porting to get them on each platform, so getting them onto a non-UWP target would be another platform (which many developers would simply skip since UWP would be theoretically easier).
- Tepix 11y ago
  This is the key question. If Microsoft decides one day to offer the next DirectX version only for UWP then the developers will either have to eat humble pie or leave the platform.
  - speeder 11y ago
    This is confusing, and I don't found enough data yet. But seemly DX12 IS heavily tied to UWP, for example there were many rumors in gaming forums, that some UWP "features" (like locked vsync at 60 FPS, and game always being full-screen window, not allowing true fullscreen or true window) will be enforced in games that use DX12. There is also rumors it is the other way around, that to use certain DX12 features you must make the app at least UWP compatible, this mean locking vsync and making it only support borderless fullscreen... But the situation is just a mess and I don't found any comprehensive data yet.
    - cwyers 11y ago
      Rumors in gaming forums and a dollar will get you something off the dollar menu at McDonalds. People in gaming forums say all kinds of things and a lot of them are absurd conspiracy theorists. I've yet to see anyone point out an actual technical feature of UWP that you can't get by delivering a normal Windows app through Steam, just store features like crossbuy with Xbox One. There are several features that normal Windows apps have that UWP apps don't have yet, as noted, and DirectX 12 is fully available to all Windows apps. Honestly, if we're picking the lesser of two evils, I'll pick Microsoft over Valve, the company that just got around to notifying people of security breaches that happened over Christmastime this week. Valve seems to be in this weird place where they don't want to make retail games anymore because of all the Steam cash they have rolling in but they don't want to actually have to manage Steam, they want users to curate the store for them and basically are engaging in less-than-benign neglect.
tobltobs 11y ago
Maybe it wasn't a good idea of them to support the gaming monoculture called Windows for the last 20 years.
- ivanca 11y ago
  Except the alternative, developing binaries for Linux is not a viable option as Linus itself explains very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&feature=youtu.be&t=5m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&feature=youtu.be...
  - parenthephobia 11y ago
    Practical options: 1. Statically link everything. 2. Bundle the shared libraries you depend upon. Long-term solutions: 1. Distributions should allow parallel installation of different library versions. so-files are already versioned, so this shouldn't really be all that difficult. That said, this doesn't help if you depend on specific versions of non-library files, like executables or headers. 2. Use docker, or something like docker, to formalize binding a binary to a particular version of a particular distro.
    - ryao 11y ago
      Steam and Desura are also viable options for distribution in a developer friendly way.
      - parenthephobia 11y ago
        I don't know about Desura, but Steam doesn't actually solve the problem. As far as distribution is concerned, Steam provides a way to get the files to the computer, but doesn't provide a consistent environment for them to run in. To pick two random examples, Portal 2 on Linux links against 20 system libraries, whilst Shadowrun Hong Kong links against 39. Even the Unity-based SUPERHOT links against 38. Obviously, Steam OS is a different beast.
        11y ago
pearle 11y ago
Good for him, I hope others speak out as well.
macspoofing 11y ago
Tim Sweeney is pissed at Microsoft for trying to do what Apple and Google already done on mobile devices.
- deleted 11y ago
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- richardwhiuk 11y ago
  and Microsoft on Xbox, and Sony on Playstation and Nintendo, and Sega, and ...
  - corysama 11y ago
    Tim has been tolerating crap from a bunch of people. But, being pissed about now getting even more crap from someone who has been a good friend for decades; That makes him a hypocrite?
pearle 11y ago
Polygon podcast [1] where Tim is interviewed about his article: [1] http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/4/11159584/tim-sweeney-windows-10-monopoly-interview http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/4/11159584/tim-sweeney-windows...
parenthephobia 11y ago
Meta: HN's title could stand to be less vague. Not everyone knows who Tim Sweeney is. Readers might confuse him with Tim Cook!
- Strom 11y ago
  I am confident that almost nobody on HN will confuse Tim Sweeney for Tim Cook. Also, this is similar to lingo usage, not everyone will know what PHP is, but that doesn't mean we should start adding wikipedia definitions into the titles. People who are unaware can do some research to find out, and the rest of us won't be subjected to annoyingly verbose titles. Additionally in this specific case the first sentence of the article explains who Tim Sweeney is.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
SloopJon 11y ago
What we've learned from Steam and Apple's app stores is that users will make a Faustian bargain if they see the terms as favorable enough, especially when it lowers prices. This in turn attracted developers. However, with the history of PlaysForSure, Zune, Games for Windows, Windows Phone, and the Windows Store, I don't have much confidence that Microsoft will win the hearts and minds of users or developers this time around.
- kabdib 11y ago
  Microsoft might try to make an open system. But over the long term, they just won't be able to. Open is not in the Microsoft DNA. "Whatever can be controlled, must be controlled." It might start open-ish. But then some PM will notice that users can post content that is objectionable, or that there are such things as "porn mods" for Skyrim, or whatever, and then the lid will come down. Xbox Live Arcade started out as a way for indie developers to get their games into the Xbox market. Over time XBLA reached the point where only deep pockets could successfully navigate the TCRs and multiple verification passes needed to ship. Indies got frozen out. Let's not even talk about XNA, or Games for Windows Live (shudder). Whatever hardware Microsoft offers a gaming platform on, it won't be left uncontrolled for long.
  - Jordrok 11y ago
    As a primarily PC gamer, there was a period around 2008-2010 where XBLA seemed to be flourishing and it was seriously making me consider buying an XBox. There seemed to be a lot of really good indie games suddenly popping up which were XBox exclusives. I never quite reached the tipping point though, which is probably for the best because as far as I can tell, the current incarnation of XBLA is a shadow of its former self. As an outsider I'm not really sure why that is, but it certainly hurts my confidence in Microsoft's ability to manage an open video game ecosystem. Valve and Steam on the other hand (though still not perfect) have only grown and gotten better in the meantime.
    - chokolad 11y ago
      > which is probably for the best because as far as I can tell, the current incarnation of XBLA is a shadow of its former self. As an outsider I'm not really sure why that is, but it certainly hurts my confidence in Microsoft's ability to manage an open video game ecosystem. I am not sure why you say that. There is significantly more Indie games being released for Xbox One right now than it was for Xbox 360 and XBLA. There are also early preview releases similar to Steam EAPs, etc.
cyanbane 11y ago
Is the core of this that game purchaser is losing the ability to purchase this type of game from other channels and forced to from the MS store in exchange for this game being able to run on any hardware (Win 10/XBox One/Windows Mobile)that runs UWP. Are they betting that a lot of PC gamers may see value in knowing that an app is vetted and will work with minimal configuration on their PC in exchange for only using this channel for purchase? Is the hardware amalgamation of PC and Xbox Live that bad to the end user or just the game devs or just to 3rd party AAA title devs that have to compete with MS's AAA titles and bargain to get into this new channel?
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Speaking as an avid PC gamer, if this is Microsoft's angle they do not understand their audience. Half of PC gaming IS the ability to tinker and tweak and configure the games to work the way we want. Personally, I couldn't give a shit if my games ran on Microsoft's shiny new platform if I tried. As long as we can distribute and run executables I don't really see this having much of an effect, and if Microsoft really starts trying to lock devs out of features they need, well, there's always Ubuntu. I feel like this is a really bone headed move, when Valve is pushing the bounds of gaming on Linux Microsoft is doubling down on more "exclusive" platforming, because that went so bloody well last time. coughgamesforwindowscough
pjmlp 11y ago
So Tim Sweeney apparently is fine with Apple, Google, Sony and Nintendo controlling their eco-systems, only Microsoft cannot do it.
- larsiusprime 11y ago
  Apple, Google, Sony and Nintendo started with closed ecosystems. Keeping them closed maintains the status quo. Microsoft presided over a relatively open ecosystem (the PC). Moving that from open to closed could be rightly perceived as a loss of something some people would like to keep. I don't see the hypocrisy here.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    If he feels so bad about it, he shouldn't let Epic have console exclusives or even develop for them. After all Epic is also profiting from them. Or it is only bad when the size of the pie isn't as big as one wishes for?
    - Strom 11y ago
      I get the feeling you didn't fully understand what larsiusprime explained, as you brought another example which isn't similar to the main issue here. The primary key of the issue here is the loss of something that actually existed. The iOS App Store has never been open. You can dislike the lack of openness but there has never been an event that removed the openness, as it has never existed. The same goes for Epic's games. The console exclusive Gears of War 3 never had a PC version released and then subsequently taken away and buried ATARI style. It has always been console exclusive. Tim sees Microsoft's actions as a force that will reduce the openness of the Windows platform.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        Maybe we are talking in circles here, but if he cared so much about openess maybe he shouldn't have supported closed platforms in first place. If he is such a knight of openess, then Epic should only have targeted open platforms. Yet they happily took the money those bad closed platforms brought them. It is not a matter of consoles always being closed, rather a duality of principles when money speaks.
ewzimm 11y ago
It seems strange to be so vocal about it with such a weak argument. The three points he says it needs are: 1. Being able to install from the web. 2. Being able to integrate with other stores. 3. Not locking it down in the future. According to Microsoft, 2 was always possible, 1 was fixed in November (it was previously possible but required bypassing some things), so that leaves only 3, promising to never lock it down in the future. This idea that Microsoft could lock down its platform in the future is nothing new, and part of the nature of having a proprietary platform. It really isn't up to them to fix this problem. It's up to developers to make their software available on free and open platforms where they know that no future lockdown is possible.
ryao 11y ago
Maybe the publishers should start publishing exclusively for sane PC platforms like Mac OS X and Linux instead of Windows. I believe that they can do all three via Steam though.
- KirinDave 11y ago
  What do you mean by "sane?" From a technical standpoint, Windows is competitive and probably superior to Linux for desktop and portable applications. For server side, Windows is probably not the right choice. And as for OSX... if you express this concern about Microsoft's app platform but not Apple's encroachment on their (poorly managed) app platform? You're being unfair and letting prejudices and populism blind you to the issue. And all of this ignores that the most important computing platforms, the ones on mobile handsets? They're impossibly locked down and no one seems to care.
  - yarou 11y ago
    What does this article have to do with the Mac App Store? You can easily disable gatekeeper by right-clicking on a pkg. I don't see any similar mechanism on Windows 10, and anyway, the article is discussing how UWP would lock down APIs for developers, which leads to an overall adverse selection situation for game consumers. And it's laughable that you think Windows 10 is even remotely comparable to Linux for "portable applications". How are Win32 executables portable at all? They don't even work between versions of Windows. Win32 API is still a mess and pretty much everything about Windows is not standards compliant.
    - KirinDave 11y ago
      This complaint is that at any moment, Microsoft might add a feature that only UWP gets. It's not like you can't run unsigned apps on Windows either. Hell, you can run unsigned UWP apps too! You just need to enable developer mode. Apple has this exact same facility in the Mac app store. And has an even tighter lockdown on the iOS store which we all mysteriously pretend is different somehow because reasons and 30somethings nostalgia. Linux on portable devices such as laptops is a comedy of errors, failed device driver support, excuses, and politics breaking battery life. If you say otherwise, you have much lower standards than I do for a modern laptop. > How are Win32 executables portable at all? They don't even work between versions of Windows ... Wait. Wait... I just read this. What? I have DOS executables that still work in windows, let alone very old win32 api executables. Do Linux executables work somewhere else besides Linux without someone bending over backwards to support them (e.g., FreeBSD?).
bitmapbrother 11y ago
Tim has nothing to worry about. Microsoft was never a player in PC gaming and never will be. Steam is PC gaming. Microsoft has tried a couple of times to take on Steam and have failed spectacularly. Microsoft should either try and buy Steam (although Gabe would never sell) or embrace it.
- aqtrans 11y ago
  What I think is weird is it seems like just a few years ago, Microsoft was embracing Steam. They released (or rather, allowed some team to port and publish) remasters of Rise of Nations and Age of Empires II on Steam, with some really great Steam integration too. Guess that was before someone at Microsoft came up with this UWP idea and somehow roped gaming into it.
- gottam 11y ago
  Well, that's not entirely true. A decade ago Microsoft was a big player in PC gaming. Microsoft game studios made some big sellers like age of empires, mechwarrior, freelancer, etc, but was dismantled after their xbox initiative took off.
  - bitmapbrother 11y ago
    Considering the calibre of games that were released during that time frame Microsoft was never a big player in the industry.
optimiz3 11y ago
This is pretty one-sided. UWP is nice for users because it sandboxes apps that are built for it. Some benefits: 1. I know the game won't dump save and log files in my Documents folder (that place is mine, GTFO). 2. I know there won't be garbage files or side effects in the registry when I uninstall the app. 3. The game can't install rootkit-like spyware to inspect other processes on my system (hello Warden). It would be nice if there was a way to distribute UWP apps outside the Windows Store, but UWP apps are way easier to trust than Win32 apps.
- sametmax 11y ago
  Plus (and while I really dislike app stores in general), it solves the biggest security problem : the user. It prevents it tfrom installing a load of crapwares just because he or she clicks everywhere without reading. Now, it's logical from those vendors to lock in installation on their plateform. It's theirs. They built it. Like you build a car so it's easier for you to sell your replacement pieces and control what's going to be plug to it. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't use windows. Or if you use windows because it has value to you, you have to play by MS rule or hack around. Like with cars. I dislike these rules, I don't use Window as my main system. I use a system that doesn't lock me in. If you are using Windows (or any other system locking your in), if you have been using it for the last 10 years, you knew this. You are half responsible for your situation. Don't tell me "I have to use it because 'work|busines|whatever'". You choose to keep this work/business/whatever. It's more important to you than playing by MS rules. Well, you made a choice. You don't like it. But you did. You never fought it, you never did anything to prevent this from hapening. You had time. And solutions. This didn't happen by surprise or on one week. People warned you about this for 20 years, and provided alternatives, and you didn't use it.
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    > Like with cars. Except that cars don't work like that. You can take your Ford to Valvoline and they don't have to use Ford-brand motor oil.
    - 11y ago
serge2k 11y ago
I couldn't get past the first paragraph. The FUD is strong with this article.
- ionised 11y ago
  How would you know if you only read the first paragraph?
CleanCut 11y ago
My studio, Agile Perception, will be boycotting UWP. I'm glad Tim brought this to light. I was wondering whether or not our next project should include UWP. https://agileperception.com https://agileperception.com
- ryao 11y ago
  When will your next project be available on Linux and Mac OS X?
vamur 11y ago
Steam has a defacto monopoly for gaming on Windows and there are over 2000 games for Linux on Steam. So Microsoft would be foolish to try and restrict games to their own app store. That would be the end of Windows as a gaming platform. And given Microsoft's past efforts failing miserably it's unlikely whatever they come up with this time can win on its own.
shmerl 11y ago
Hopefully stronger push for Linux gaming will prevent this kind of thing.
jsingleton 11y ago
This image caption struck me: Minecraft is developed by Swedish company Mojang. Will future games be developed now that Microsoft is closing its borders? I hope this was added afterwards by the guardian. I'm pretty sure Tim wouldn't have missed the MS acquisition. You can bet anything Minecraft will be in the Windows Store.
- jerf 11y ago
  'Twould be a very bad bet against: https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/store/apps/Minecraft-Pocket-Edition/9WZDNCRDZSBB https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/store/apps/Minecraft-Pocket-... (MCPE, based in C++, appears to be intended to eventually take over as "the" Minecraft. It's behind feature-wise the Java version, but advancing relatively quickly lately.)
throwaway13337 11y ago
Looks like Microsoft finally found a way to eat Valve's lunch - release a windows API that forces you to only publish via their app store. I'm surprised this is the first they've done this. In a way, Valve has been reaping the same benefits of Apple and Google without supporting an OS. It's too bad things are headed completely in this direction. Rent seeking app stores have shown that there is little resistance from developers even with ridiculous margins (30% of revenue!).
- deleted 11y ago
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- sago 11y ago
  As someone who's shipped games for direct download, and via steam, as well as in retail boxes (oh for 70% margin!), I can honestly say that I find 30% not in the slightest bit ridiculous. I'd give 99% revenue to a platform if it meant that I sold more than 100x the product. Steam, for example, has been transformative for the industry, and has led to a renaissance in independent game production. I remember the bleak days of the early 2000s, when consolidation was sending even large developers bust, with little opportunities for their staff. Many friends and colleagues were jettisoned from the industry. Apple's iOS store, also, for all its well-rehearsed problems, has supported an industry that I honestly don't think would exist without it: largely creating a viable micropayment games economy that had been wanted by developers for 20 years at least. Both have increased sales by many times more than their cut.
- vacri 11y ago
  > Rent seeking app stores App stores are not rent seeking. They created a market (and in some cases a platform) for you to sell to. Being able to sell your product with only 30% overhead is something previously unheard of in retail. If you want to get 100% of the money, then you're welcome to build your own sales system and generate trust with it, deal with bad creditors yourself, deal with maintenance and artefact distribution in a secure, scaled manner... the list goes on and on. Go and ask some farmers if they'd feel hard done by if they got 70% of the final purchase price of their produce.
Animats 11y ago
It's clear where this is going. Apple did it first, with rigid control of the IOS platform. Then Google gradually tightened the screws on Android apps. Now it's Microsoft's turn. It's not just about games. It's about control of the app business. Apple won't let you sell an IOS app that competes with an Apple product. In time, neither will Microsoft.
- sosuke 11y ago
  "Apple won't let you sell an IOS app that competes with an Apple product." I see the MS Office suite on my iPhone, there are iMovie alternatives too. Are you talking about private API access?
- mywittyname 11y ago
  Let's be clear: Apple and Google can do things that would be considered illegal if done by MS. Due to anti-trust regulations, these companies are playing by different rules.
  - Animats 11y ago
    Microsoft could reasonably claim they no longer have a monopoly position. One could make a conspiracy in restraint of trade argument that Apple, Google, and Microsoft are acting collectively to control the app industry.
madspindel 11y ago
I don't really understand the problem here. Windows is an open plattform. I can install Steam. I can listen to Spotify. Browse the web with Google Chrome. If you don't like the Universal Windows Platform, well. Don't release your games on it. I have heard Steam is a quite popular alternative...
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  The whole point of the reaction is that with UWP Windows will cease to be an open platform.
  - madspindel 11y ago
    Why is that? It was still an open platform after Valve released their closed Steam platform. This doesn't change anything at all.
    - kristiandupont 11y ago
      It does if new API's are only available through UWP.
    - sbarre 11y ago
      This is all kind of addressed in the article, did you read it before coming here to comment?
    - fsloth 11y ago
      Because the threat is, Windows as a platform will be engineered so that unless the app is provided through Microsoft's store, it will be effectively crippled. Valve cannot cripple OS level features. Microsoft - owning both the OS and the app store - certainly can.
    - cmiles74 11y ago
      I think his concern is that UWP apps are the first step towards blocking non-UWP apps. Kind of like Apple does on MacOS X, where you have to dig into the security settings. From the article: "The specific problem here is that Microsoft's shiny new 'Universal Windows Platform' is locked down, and by default it’s impossible to download UWP apps from the websites of publishers and developers, to install them, update them, and conduct commerce in them outside of the Windows Store," said Sweeney. "It's true that if you dig far enough into Microsoft's settings-burying UI, you can find a way to install these apps by enabling 'side-loading.' But in turning this off by default, Microsoft is unfairly disadvantaging the competition."
superuser2 11y ago
Epic (in the context of Windows and software) is an electronic medical records company in Wisconsin. Might want to specify that this is Epic Games; that was confusing at first.
- sbarre 11y ago
  I would guess that if asked about "Epic" in the context of software, most people would guess Epic Games, and not the EMR company.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Really? Epic Games has 160 employees according to Wikipedia; Epic Systems has ~10,000. I do happen to have worked in healthcare IT though.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- X-Istence 11y ago
  Epic Games is the more well known entity. I've never heard of Epic the electronic medical records company.
- 1123581321 11y ago
  I know people at Epic Systems and not at Epic Games, and I wasn't confused at all, especially with the context.
- dang 11y ago
  We've merged the comments from three different threads, and the title of this one no longer has "Epic" in it. Though I think someone else was complaining about "Tim Sweeney".
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
At the end of the day, Win10 is a mobile OS with some legacy desktop support. I think once we see it for what it is, we'll be more comfortable with it. Does this guy from Epic have a problem with publishing these games to iphone/ipad? The game changed pretty quickly and Nadella has no interest in re-creating Win7 or going back to Desktop OS's and open-ish platforms. This is the new reality for MS, good or bad. Personally, I'm not happy with it, but I think people should be aware of what it means to upgrade to Win10 and be part of the modern MS ecosystem. edit: really 4 downvotes? Care to tell me what is wrong in my comment. Are you guys really defending Win10 and Nadella here? This is his vision - iOS-like system on the desktop and that 30% app revenue. Being cognizant of that should be a positive.
- zmmmmm 11y ago
  Why should we be more comfortable because it's a mobile OS? I don't really understand why that suddenly makes locked down proprietary systems OK? I do agree, the time to complain about this was 7 years ago when Apple did it (as I did at the time). The horse has now long bolted and we might as well consign ourselves to living in a world where making money from software consists of assigning 30% of revenue to a rent seeking landlord. We can expect the opportunities to do otherwise to narrow down to zero over the next 10 years. It's not good, but it's a decision everyone made collectively 7 years ago while drooling over iPads and iPhones.
  - mdasher 11y ago
    Microsoft isn't rent-seeking with Windows 10. They are attempting to build a secure and trusted platform, just like Apple did with iOS. That platform and the store for the platform are valuable. I applaud them for moving in this direction and applaud them some more for doing it without sacrificing the openness of Win32 on the PC (at least for now).
    - makomk 11y ago
      The Windows Store has been stuffed full of fake apps trading off the names of other, genuine big-name apps with various levels of malicious content for years. It's definitely rent-seeking, and not in any way a "secure and trusted platform".
endergen 11y ago
Does anyone know exactly which features you don't get access to unless going through their distribution? Cause anything short of not getting the latest drivers or something or anything that affects performance or existing feature sets isn't the worst thing ever. Ok it's lame to try to close a system that's been open forever. But this is exactly what Apple is doing with their App Store, minus I believe preventing any serious Platform APIs from being called.
- ramy_d 11y ago
  UWP apps are subject to a host of limitations, including not being able to turn off V-sync, (currently) no SLI or Crossfire support, no .exe file for use with Steam, and no custom mouse and keyboard bindings. Game files are also locked down, which prevents modding.
  - leddt 11y ago
    Those are things that you can't do with a UWP app. The GP is asking about what you can't do without a UWP app.
    - ramy_d 11y ago
      righto - read too quickly. Answer: DX12.
      - lostmsu 11y ago
        Source? AFAIK most DX12 samples in SDK are not UWP.
      - Blaaguuu 11y ago
        I don't think that's correct either. My understanding is that the issue with DirectX 12 is that it is limited to Windows 10 - So people still on Windows 7/8 can't play DX12 games. AFAIK, you can use DX12 in non-UWP applications.
        11y ago
pmarreck 11y ago
Can't someone come up with an open-source Linux OS fork that is designed mainly for games? Oh, wait... Valve is trying that. ;)
- shmerl 11y ago
  Any regular distro is quite usable for it. Valve just made a console UI. For desktop gaming it isn't useful really.
exodust 11y ago
So much speculation in the article and in the comments. I won't pretend I'm across the whole doomsday prophesy implied, but... a lot of the reason (not 100%, but a lot of the reason) why many gamers own a Windows PC is for Steam. Okay, so I have no data to back that up except... lots of my younger cousins and nephews and their friends who beg their parents (and me) for a new graphics card so they can run this or that game. They are ALL on Steam, it's in their blood. They might do a bit of homework and multimedia stuff on their Windows boxes, but Steam is a major application, not least of because the social integration and features that run very deep within the Steam network. Microsoft trying to ruin that party will be like Google trying to convince everyone Google Buzz is the social platform of the future. Barely a pebble in the pond rippled from that attempt, and Microsoft are no strangers to the art of pebble-throwing.
rl3 11y ago
It's bad news when Tim Sweeney decries the very existence of your platform.
ekke 11y ago
Nice photo caption fail: "Minecraft is developed by Swedish company Mojang. Will future games be developed now that Microsoft is closing its borders?" In the light of: https://mojang.com/2014/09/yes-were-being-bought-by-microsoft/ https://mojang.com/2014/09/yes-were-being-bought-by-microsof...
dang 11y ago
Url changed from http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-to-microsoft-universal-windows-platform-can-should-must-and-will-die/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-to-microso..., which points to this.
frik 11y ago
Windows 10 Mobile is dead, 1.1% market share of all Windows Phone version in Q4 2015, see IDC: https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS40980416 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS40980416 (or a critical non-advertisement article http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-dead http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-... ) And what Microsoft does to force Windows 7 users to 10 is shaddy. Welcome to the old new Microsoft, with their evil tactics and nowadays also with software that spy's on you. So mean, shame on them. So sad, I really like Microsoft products from the 1995-2010 timeframe, and now have to replace all the legacy, though I have time until at least 2020.
- whitegrape 11y ago
  As someone who only uses Windows for gaming, the only potential reason I have to upgrade to 10 is for DirectX 12. But with Vulkan, I don't even need that. I'm hoping that by the time security updates for 7 are ended sometime in the 2020s they'll have released a new OS that is actually worth upgrading to...
  - randyrand 11y ago
    Will vulkan be able to run games that were coded with DX12? No. Youll still need windows 10 to run them. So im not sure how Vulkan makes you not need DX12. If youre developing games, sure. But as a gamer you have no way to make DX12 games run on vulkan.
    - whitegrape 11y ago
      I think there's a misunderstanding here. Will OpenGl be able to run games that were coded in DX? No. Vulkan's existence means I don't need DX12, and I don't need Windows 10, because game devs that care about me (and my 35% brethren) will have a Vulkan port, in the same way that game devs that care about any other non-Windows platforms have an OpenGL port (or are already using an engine that does the porting for them). Technically you're right that Vulkan won't help me run a game that uses only DX12, I doubt there will be many of those games though because of many bad incentives to do that.
Eyas 11y ago
It seems like the real complaint is that Windows Store lock-in is bad (which might be the case for distributers, jury is out for me whether its bad for gamers). Universal Windows Platform, however, is an API that is strictly better and safer in many cases. It means an app can run on phone and PC, be sandboxed, offers power and lifecycle management features which the Win32 API does not, and a generally saner API.
joewood1972 11y ago
The problem with an open distribution system is that it easy to abuse, and that leads to security problems. Most of us all know non-IT literate family members that have clicked through a web advert advertising to "speed up your computer" to end up installing some bad spyware/malware or whatever. I'm happy for Windows to become a walled garden by default, as long there's an easy option to switch it off.
- wvenable 11y ago
  There's no switching it off -- it's a new platform. The old platform will continue to exist but it's the old platform and it continue to be harder to use it.
- chipperyman573 11y ago
  I'm not. Every time a family member asks me to make a program to automate something they do regularly it always involves a call about how to disable SmartScreen and always goes something like this: >Ok, so run the program. Yeah, I know it says your computer is protecting you, just ignore that. Look for a little button that says "More info". No, "More info". No, don't click OK. Ugh. Re-open the file. Ok, under that scary sentence that you should ignore, there's a button that says "More info". Click that. Ok, good. Click run anyway. Yes, I know it says it could be unsafe, click it anyway. You get the picture. It makes distributing little side projects you make a huge headache, which frankly is not something I see microsoft solving any time soon.
  - joewood1972 11y ago
    Not sure I follow. For distributing apps for friends you can (and I do) distribute using HockeyApp or TestFlight or whatever. There's also a Development->Sideload app feature in Windows 10 already. It's hard to argue that the cost of doing this outweighs the security benefits. Just think how hard it would be to do a DDoS attack without robots installed via malware everywhere.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
MikusR 11y ago
Epic is just transitioning their Unreal launcher into a storefront. So they need to launch an attack on competitor. Similarly when Windows 8 launched Steam owner (Gabe Newell) also ranted against Windows store.
WhoBeI 11y ago
A bit half arsed though.. They could have signing certificates that automatically timeout and force publishers to update often and then charge for the certification. Publishers can always get a little extra by paying for the "editor's pick" feature. Oh, and also, because users despise long downloads why not have a normal and premium download rate for both publishers and end users. And leaving an off switch in there... I think someone got a chair in the head.
mastax 11y ago
The day Microsoft kills Win32 is the day Windows dies.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Hence why they are working into packing Win32 apps as UWP ones. Search for Project Centennial.
wnevets 11y ago
I hope game devs remember the train wreck that was games for windows.
chokolad 11y ago
BTW, Phil Spencer posted this on twitter https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795213709561857 https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795213709561857 UWP is a fully open ecosystem, available to every developer, and can be supported by any store. Broad range of tools http://bit.ly/1QIHTf0 http://bit.ly/1QIHTf0
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  That claim is in no way backed up by anything linked, everything talks about using windows store, and zero mention of third party stores.
  - chokolad 11y ago
    Next tweet We will discuss our next steps with the Universal Windows Platform at //build later this month. https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795341572923392 https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795341572923392
sgdread 11y ago
The second Microsoft will try to lock down distribution of software from platforms like Steam and GoG to gain competitive advantage and profits, they will be sued by Steam, EA and other platform owners. Apple with 10 major book publishers tried to do same on eBooks markets with Amazon. Ended up bad for them. "Sue the bastards!" (c) Richard Branson
Skoofoo 11y ago
Microsoft is trying to monopolize an industry? Stop the presses! I wish Microsoft never entered the video game industry in the first place. They made it worse for everyone for their own profit.
kregasaurusrex 11y ago
It looks like this is going to become a tipping point for which Vulkan and DirectX offer competing system calls for accessing a computer's GPU. The UWP being shown here will be essentially locking developers into using the DirectX library and drop future support for Vulkan against what users want to see in gaming as being platform-agnostic. Coming into this console generation, gamers wanted to see games from AAA publishers be able to come out on X1/PS4/PC faster because of similar system calls; such that code for one platform wouldn't require a total re-write to work on the others. MS is now wanting to lock out developers from using an open platform such that their calls will be different and "better" than those made by an open one.
dragonbonheur 11y ago
Long live Win32 and Linux!
ekianjo 11y ago
This post is like Stockholm's Syndrome: "Oh Microsoft please don't close your platform. Because anyway we want to keep using it no matter what". You know, you could have chosen to mention Linux instead or keeping your hands tied. But no, Tim likes to be a prisoner.
gehrforce1 11y ago
Isn't most of this because they also want the same apps to run on Xbox, Phone, Hololens, etc?

260 points by saint-loup 11y ago

I have a kind of mixed feeling about this. So if you do a mobile OS its ok to have app walled gardens, but on Windows you can´t? Won't we always have the "option" of going the Linux way? I think it's really telling that Valve has been investing heavily in developing it's Linux gaming econsystem, they saw this comming a mile away.

nabla9 11y ago
Microsoft OS has monopoly power in the PC market. They have been in the court for actions like this before [1]. The difference between mobile and PC is that if hardware maker has their own closed system, what they have is basically an appliance. PC's are generic item build from standards and Microsoft has produced an open operating system with large markets for software running on their OS. They can't just close it on a whim and abuse their monopoly power position [1]. ---- [1.] Findings of Fact in U.S. v. Microsoft Corporation, Civil Action No. 98-1232 (TPJ) and State of New York, ex re. Attorney General Eliot Spitzer et al., v. Microsoft Corporation, Civil Action No. 98-1233 (TPJ), November 5, 1999. "Monopoly power" is not the same as monopoly. One must always point this out when saying it or discussion is derailed.
- raesene2 11y ago
  But surely they're not closing off the pc platform, just potentially restricting what can happen on their OS. You can still use PCs with linux without any lock in. Long gone are the days when Microsoft was a monopoly on client computing devices, these days we have linux, Mac osx, chrome OS, Android, steamOS and iOS. Several of these other platforms are already closed to one degree on another, with iOS probably being the most restrictive, so I'm not sure I see Microsoft as being dominent enough to warrant a claim of monopoly power any more
  - frik 11y ago
    They are, PC manufacturer have to lock down the hardware for Win10. Good luck trying to install Linux/FreeBSD/etc on a new notebook. Microsoft is using their desktop monopoly and OEM cartel to lock down the platform. reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
    - raesene2 11y ago
      I have bought and installed linux on laptops from hp and Lenovo with no problems at all. Also you can buy laptops from Dell with linux pre-installed. Can you provide any citations for the assertion that Microsoft are currently (2016) forcing hardware companies to tie their products to Windows?
      - frik 11y ago
        Can you cite your "no problem at all"? That statement is just wrong, if the hardware shipped with Win8/8.1/10 pre installed. Such devices come with a locked down UEFI, the "legacy" BIOS is deactivated and often hidden behind shortcuts that one has to press during boot. Also it depends if you bought a business or consumer hardware.
        raesene2 11y ago
        Of course I can as it was my personal experience. On the other hand you made a general assertion about their actions which really needs a citation. Reinstalling an os is a technical task, which requires some knowledge to do effectively. Having been doing this for 25 years or so, I can safely say it's easier now than it used to be...
        frik 11y ago
        Good for you. You could provide photos of your UEFI settings and or BIOS settings, and of course you had to change several of them and hold down specific buttons. And no, it was easier before Microsoft introduced Windows 8 and 10. It was very easy, just insert a CD/DVD with a boot-image. Read about UEFI and "secure boot" came along with Windows 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
- Aleman360 11y ago
  "Microsoft OS has monopoly power in the PC market." Is there a legal difference between a "PC" and a tablet or phone? They all seem like general purpose computers to me. From that perspective, MS definitely doesn't have a monopoly.
  - hollerith 11y ago
    A large fraction of the employees of corporations and other organizations need laptop or desktop computers: it would be impractical for them to use tablets or phones instead. Only a very small fraction of those employees use any OS on these laptops and desktops except for Windows, and that small fraction is concentrated in the computer industry, e.g., Google and Oracle (if they are in fact mostly non-Windows; I don't know for sure) which means that the monopoly is even stronger in the industries other than the computer industry than the global numbers would suggest.
Mayzie 11y ago
>I think it's really telling that Valve has been investing heavily in developing it's Linux gaming econsystem "Investing heavily"? They only have a handful of developers working on the system!
- shmerl 11y ago
  I guess you missed their major contribution to the Vulkan project.
shmerl 11y ago
> Won't we always have the "option" of going the Linux way? Indeed, it's the only option that will remain really. And luckily things are improving for Linux gaming now.
maxsilver 11y ago
> So if you do a mobile OS its ok to have app walled gardens, but on Windows you can´t? For what it's worth, a lot of us don't think it's "OK" on a mobile OS either.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

sfunk1x 11y ago

Rings a bit hollow. Easy solution - don't develop games for Windows or Xbox!

turbohz 11y ago
That's what sparked the creation of SteamOS. Let's hope developers get onboard and hardware vendors start (seriously) supporting the platform.
- UK-AL 11y ago
  Steam is pretty much what windows is trying to do.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
toyg 11y ago
That's pretty much commercial suicide, at this point in time, for developers like him.
- bitmapbrother 11y ago
  No it's not. There's always Sony, Nintendo and, of course, Steam - which will be void of UWP garbage.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    You don't seem to understand that UWP is a frontal assault on Steam.
    - bitmapbrother 11y ago
      And you and Microsoft need to understand that you cannot win against Steam as is evidenced by their embarrassing Windows gaming failures. You either embrace Steam or you're relegated to irrelevance.

staticelf 11y ago

I really like the initiative of UWP but I agree with the author that you should be able to install UWP-apps from any source. Is it really true that you can't? Maybe it's time for game developers like Epic to support Linux and make gamers choose linux as their desktop, that would probably create a surge of new users and contributions to the linux desktop development and maybe finally provide a "real" alternative. Why I am running Windows is mostly because I can't stand all the issues with Linux desktops and that graphic drivers and games barely exist on the platform, I am loving Valves support though.

mdip 11y ago
Maybe it's time for game developers like Epic to support Linux and make gamers choose Linux as their desktop In the current market, this assumes a few things that simply don't work. Platform adoption drives game software development on the PC side of things. Though some of us do, most people do not purchase a high-end PC exclusively for games. They purchase it to do something they need and might add a high-end graphics adapter to allow them to play games. This often means buying a Windows box. If a game developer released a great game exclusive to Linux, that game would be played by very few people (and would be screwed by all of those graphics issues you mention). It's possible if Steam OS and Valve's platform gains wide adoption that game developers will focus more on Linux, though. The economics of game development seem positively scary to me as a software developer. For major titles, they throw millions of dollars into development in hopes that a game, costing around $50 (and widely pirated) will generate revenue for about a year. And the success of a game is largely determined by factors that are risky, similar to other visual art-forms. Maybe the topic isn't one anyone cares about? That money is flushed down the toilet. Contrasting that with business software which can cost well over $50 and have a lifetime of several years, it doesn't surprise me that game companies look to subscription MMORPGs, paid DLC to existing content and in-game (effectively "paid-for cheats") to make money. Getting them to be willing to spend more to support a one-off platform with existing difficulties supporting high-end graphics scenarios is unlikely. Consider that a business case for an expensive piece of software like Adobe's Creative Cloud could be made far more easily. The software even has native support for Mac OS and Windows, yet they are unwilling to support Linux. That makes me a lot less hopeful we'll ever see great games running in Ubuntu without Wine.

mdip 11y ago

Maybe I missed it in reading the article but what, specifically, is not available to developers if they choose to write the application against the typical Win32 APIs? Are they, for instance, making certain hardware accelerated APIs only available for UWP apps? If so, are these APIs designed in such a way as to prevent someone from creating an API that runs on top of Win32 that exposes the capabilities (i.e. by requiring drivers be locked down in such a way as to disallow interaction outside of UWP)? I can't see a way outside of driver feature lock-out that the OS could effectively prevent game developers from developing games the way they have been in the past. I'm guessing this has a lot to do with their "Write it for Xbox One and it'll work on Windows 10, too" goals, but that feels more like a convenience than a lock-in -- games are a constant exercise of porting to get them on each platform, so getting them onto a non-UWP target would be another platform (which many developers would simply skip since UWP would be theoretically easier).

Tepix 11y ago
This is the key question. If Microsoft decides one day to offer the next DirectX version only for UWP then the developers will either have to eat humble pie or leave the platform.
- speeder 11y ago
  This is confusing, and I don't found enough data yet. But seemly DX12 IS heavily tied to UWP, for example there were many rumors in gaming forums, that some UWP "features" (like locked vsync at 60 FPS, and game always being full-screen window, not allowing true fullscreen or true window) will be enforced in games that use DX12. There is also rumors it is the other way around, that to use certain DX12 features you must make the app at least UWP compatible, this mean locking vsync and making it only support borderless fullscreen... But the situation is just a mess and I don't found any comprehensive data yet.
  - cwyers 11y ago
    Rumors in gaming forums and a dollar will get you something off the dollar menu at McDonalds. People in gaming forums say all kinds of things and a lot of them are absurd conspiracy theorists. I've yet to see anyone point out an actual technical feature of UWP that you can't get by delivering a normal Windows app through Steam, just store features like crossbuy with Xbox One. There are several features that normal Windows apps have that UWP apps don't have yet, as noted, and DirectX 12 is fully available to all Windows apps. Honestly, if we're picking the lesser of two evils, I'll pick Microsoft over Valve, the company that just got around to notifying people of security breaches that happened over Christmastime this week. Valve seems to be in this weird place where they don't want to make retail games anymore because of all the Steam cash they have rolling in but they don't want to actually have to manage Steam, they want users to curate the store for them and basically are engaging in less-than-benign neglect.

tobltobs 11y ago

Maybe it wasn't a good idea of them to support the gaming monoculture called Windows for the last 20 years.

ivanca 11y ago
Except the alternative, developing binaries for Linux is not a viable option as Linus itself explains very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&feature=youtu.be&t=5m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&feature=youtu.be...
- parenthephobia 11y ago
  Practical options: 1. Statically link everything. 2. Bundle the shared libraries you depend upon. Long-term solutions: 1. Distributions should allow parallel installation of different library versions. so-files are already versioned, so this shouldn't really be all that difficult. That said, this doesn't help if you depend on specific versions of non-library files, like executables or headers. 2. Use docker, or something like docker, to formalize binding a binary to a particular version of a particular distro.
  - ryao 11y ago
    Steam and Desura are also viable options for distribution in a developer friendly way.
    - parenthephobia 11y ago
      I don't know about Desura, but Steam doesn't actually solve the problem. As far as distribution is concerned, Steam provides a way to get the files to the computer, but doesn't provide a consistent environment for them to run in. To pick two random examples, Portal 2 on Linux links against 20 system libraries, whilst Shadowrun Hong Kong links against 39. Even the Unity-based SUPERHOT links against 38. Obviously, Steam OS is a different beast.
      - 11y ago

pearle 11y ago

Good for him, I hope others speak out as well.

macspoofing 11y ago

Tim Sweeney is pissed at Microsoft for trying to do what Apple and Google already done on mobile devices.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
richardwhiuk 11y ago
and Microsoft on Xbox, and Sony on Playstation and Nintendo, and Sega, and ...
- corysama 11y ago
  Tim has been tolerating crap from a bunch of people. But, being pissed about now getting even more crap from someone who has been a good friend for decades; That makes him a hypocrite?

pearle 11y ago

Polygon podcast [1] where Tim is interviewed about his article: [1] http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/4/11159584/tim-sweeney-windows-10-monopoly-interview http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/4/11159584/tim-sweeney-windows...

parenthephobia 11y ago

Meta: HN's title could stand to be less vague. Not everyone knows who Tim Sweeney is. Readers might confuse him with Tim Cook!

Strom 11y ago
I am confident that almost nobody on HN will confuse Tim Sweeney for Tim Cook. Also, this is similar to lingo usage, not everyone will know what PHP is, but that doesn't mean we should start adding wikipedia definitions into the titles. People who are unaware can do some research to find out, and the rest of us won't be subjected to annoyingly verbose titles. Additionally in this specific case the first sentence of the article explains who Tim Sweeney is.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

SloopJon 11y ago

What we've learned from Steam and Apple's app stores is that users will make a Faustian bargain if they see the terms as favorable enough, especially when it lowers prices. This in turn attracted developers. However, with the history of PlaysForSure, Zune, Games for Windows, Windows Phone, and the Windows Store, I don't have much confidence that Microsoft will win the hearts and minds of users or developers this time around.

kabdib 11y ago
Microsoft might try to make an open system. But over the long term, they just won't be able to. Open is not in the Microsoft DNA. "Whatever can be controlled, must be controlled." It might start open-ish. But then some PM will notice that users can post content that is objectionable, or that there are such things as "porn mods" for Skyrim, or whatever, and then the lid will come down. Xbox Live Arcade started out as a way for indie developers to get their games into the Xbox market. Over time XBLA reached the point where only deep pockets could successfully navigate the TCRs and multiple verification passes needed to ship. Indies got frozen out. Let's not even talk about XNA, or Games for Windows Live (shudder). Whatever hardware Microsoft offers a gaming platform on, it won't be left uncontrolled for long.
- Jordrok 11y ago
  As a primarily PC gamer, there was a period around 2008-2010 where XBLA seemed to be flourishing and it was seriously making me consider buying an XBox. There seemed to be a lot of really good indie games suddenly popping up which were XBox exclusives. I never quite reached the tipping point though, which is probably for the best because as far as I can tell, the current incarnation of XBLA is a shadow of its former self. As an outsider I'm not really sure why that is, but it certainly hurts my confidence in Microsoft's ability to manage an open video game ecosystem. Valve and Steam on the other hand (though still not perfect) have only grown and gotten better in the meantime.
  - chokolad 11y ago
    > which is probably for the best because as far as I can tell, the current incarnation of XBLA is a shadow of its former self. As an outsider I'm not really sure why that is, but it certainly hurts my confidence in Microsoft's ability to manage an open video game ecosystem. I am not sure why you say that. There is significantly more Indie games being released for Xbox One right now than it was for Xbox 360 and XBLA. There are also early preview releases similar to Steam EAPs, etc.

cyanbane 11y ago

Is the core of this that game purchaser is losing the ability to purchase this type of game from other channels and forced to from the MS store in exchange for this game being able to run on any hardware (Win 10/XBox One/Windows Mobile)that runs UWP. Are they betting that a lot of PC gamers may see value in knowing that an app is vetted and will work with minimal configuration on their PC in exchange for only using this channel for purchase? Is the hardware amalgamation of PC and Xbox Live that bad to the end user or just the game devs or just to 3rd party AAA title devs that have to compete with MS's AAA titles and bargain to get into this new channel?

FussyZeus 11y ago
Speaking as an avid PC gamer, if this is Microsoft's angle they do not understand their audience. Half of PC gaming IS the ability to tinker and tweak and configure the games to work the way we want. Personally, I couldn't give a shit if my games ran on Microsoft's shiny new platform if I tried. As long as we can distribute and run executables I don't really see this having much of an effect, and if Microsoft really starts trying to lock devs out of features they need, well, there's always Ubuntu. I feel like this is a really bone headed move, when Valve is pushing the bounds of gaming on Linux Microsoft is doubling down on more "exclusive" platforming, because that went so bloody well last time. coughgamesforwindowscough

pjmlp 11y ago

So Tim Sweeney apparently is fine with Apple, Google, Sony and Nintendo controlling their eco-systems, only Microsoft cannot do it.

larsiusprime 11y ago
Apple, Google, Sony and Nintendo started with closed ecosystems. Keeping them closed maintains the status quo. Microsoft presided over a relatively open ecosystem (the PC). Moving that from open to closed could be rightly perceived as a loss of something some people would like to keep. I don't see the hypocrisy here.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  If he feels so bad about it, he shouldn't let Epic have console exclusives or even develop for them. After all Epic is also profiting from them. Or it is only bad when the size of the pie isn't as big as one wishes for?
  - Strom 11y ago
    I get the feeling you didn't fully understand what larsiusprime explained, as you brought another example which isn't similar to the main issue here. The primary key of the issue here is the loss of something that actually existed. The iOS App Store has never been open. You can dislike the lack of openness but there has never been an event that removed the openness, as it has never existed. The same goes for Epic's games. The console exclusive Gears of War 3 never had a PC version released and then subsequently taken away and buried ATARI style. It has always been console exclusive. Tim sees Microsoft's actions as a force that will reduce the openness of the Windows platform.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      Maybe we are talking in circles here, but if he cared so much about openess maybe he shouldn't have supported closed platforms in first place. If he is such a knight of openess, then Epic should only have targeted open platforms. Yet they happily took the money those bad closed platforms brought them. It is not a matter of consoles always being closed, rather a duality of principles when money speaks.

ewzimm 11y ago

It seems strange to be so vocal about it with such a weak argument. The three points he says it needs are: 1. Being able to install from the web. 2. Being able to integrate with other stores. 3. Not locking it down in the future. According to Microsoft, 2 was always possible, 1 was fixed in November (it was previously possible but required bypassing some things), so that leaves only 3, promising to never lock it down in the future. This idea that Microsoft could lock down its platform in the future is nothing new, and part of the nature of having a proprietary platform. It really isn't up to them to fix this problem. It's up to developers to make their software available on free and open platforms where they know that no future lockdown is possible.

ryao 11y ago

Maybe the publishers should start publishing exclusively for sane PC platforms like Mac OS X and Linux instead of Windows. I believe that they can do all three via Steam though.

KirinDave 11y ago
What do you mean by "sane?" From a technical standpoint, Windows is competitive and probably superior to Linux for desktop and portable applications. For server side, Windows is probably not the right choice. And as for OSX... if you express this concern about Microsoft's app platform but not Apple's encroachment on their (poorly managed) app platform? You're being unfair and letting prejudices and populism blind you to the issue. And all of this ignores that the most important computing platforms, the ones on mobile handsets? They're impossibly locked down and no one seems to care.
- yarou 11y ago
  What does this article have to do with the Mac App Store? You can easily disable gatekeeper by right-clicking on a pkg. I don't see any similar mechanism on Windows 10, and anyway, the article is discussing how UWP would lock down APIs for developers, which leads to an overall adverse selection situation for game consumers. And it's laughable that you think Windows 10 is even remotely comparable to Linux for "portable applications". How are Win32 executables portable at all? They don't even work between versions of Windows. Win32 API is still a mess and pretty much everything about Windows is not standards compliant.
  - KirinDave 11y ago
    This complaint is that at any moment, Microsoft might add a feature that only UWP gets. It's not like you can't run unsigned apps on Windows either. Hell, you can run unsigned UWP apps too! You just need to enable developer mode. Apple has this exact same facility in the Mac app store. And has an even tighter lockdown on the iOS store which we all mysteriously pretend is different somehow because reasons and 30somethings nostalgia. Linux on portable devices such as laptops is a comedy of errors, failed device driver support, excuses, and politics breaking battery life. If you say otherwise, you have much lower standards than I do for a modern laptop. > How are Win32 executables portable at all? They don't even work between versions of Windows ... Wait. Wait... I just read this. What? I have DOS executables that still work in windows, let alone very old win32 api executables. Do Linux executables work somewhere else besides Linux without someone bending over backwards to support them (e.g., FreeBSD?).

bitmapbrother 11y ago

Tim has nothing to worry about. Microsoft was never a player in PC gaming and never will be. Steam is PC gaming. Microsoft has tried a couple of times to take on Steam and have failed spectacularly. Microsoft should either try and buy Steam (although Gabe would never sell) or embrace it.

aqtrans 11y ago
What I think is weird is it seems like just a few years ago, Microsoft was embracing Steam. They released (or rather, allowed some team to port and publish) remasters of Rise of Nations and Age of Empires II on Steam, with some really great Steam integration too. Guess that was before someone at Microsoft came up with this UWP idea and somehow roped gaming into it.
gottam 11y ago
Well, that's not entirely true. A decade ago Microsoft was a big player in PC gaming. Microsoft game studios made some big sellers like age of empires, mechwarrior, freelancer, etc, but was dismantled after their xbox initiative took off.
- bitmapbrother 11y ago
  Considering the calibre of games that were released during that time frame Microsoft was never a big player in the industry.

optimiz3 11y ago

This is pretty one-sided. UWP is nice for users because it sandboxes apps that are built for it. Some benefits: 1. I know the game won't dump save and log files in my Documents folder (that place is mine, GTFO). 2. I know there won't be garbage files or side effects in the registry when I uninstall the app. 3. The game can't install rootkit-like spyware to inspect other processes on my system (hello Warden). It would be nice if there was a way to distribute UWP apps outside the Windows Store, but UWP apps are way easier to trust than Win32 apps.

sametmax 11y ago
Plus (and while I really dislike app stores in general), it solves the biggest security problem : the user. It prevents it tfrom installing a load of crapwares just because he or she clicks everywhere without reading. Now, it's logical from those vendors to lock in installation on their plateform. It's theirs. They built it. Like you build a car so it's easier for you to sell your replacement pieces and control what's going to be plug to it. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't use windows. Or if you use windows because it has value to you, you have to play by MS rule or hack around. Like with cars. I dislike these rules, I don't use Window as my main system. I use a system that doesn't lock me in. If you are using Windows (or any other system locking your in), if you have been using it for the last 10 years, you knew this. You are half responsible for your situation. Don't tell me "I have to use it because 'work|busines|whatever'". You choose to keep this work/business/whatever. It's more important to you than playing by MS rules. Well, you made a choice. You don't like it. But you did. You never fought it, you never did anything to prevent this from hapening. You had time. And solutions. This didn't happen by surprise or on one week. People warned you about this for 20 years, and provided alternatives, and you didn't use it.
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  > Like with cars. Except that cars don't work like that. You can take your Ford to Valvoline and they don't have to use Ford-brand motor oil.
  - 11y ago

serge2k 11y ago

I couldn't get past the first paragraph. The FUD is strong with this article.

ionised 11y ago
How would you know if you only read the first paragraph?

CleanCut 11y ago

My studio, Agile Perception, will be boycotting UWP. I'm glad Tim brought this to light. I was wondering whether or not our next project should include UWP. https://agileperception.com https://agileperception.com

ryao 11y ago
When will your next project be available on Linux and Mac OS X?

vamur 11y ago

Steam has a defacto monopoly for gaming on Windows and there are over 2000 games for Linux on Steam. So Microsoft would be foolish to try and restrict games to their own app store. That would be the end of Windows as a gaming platform. And given Microsoft's past efforts failing miserably it's unlikely whatever they come up with this time can win on its own.

shmerl 11y ago

Hopefully stronger push for Linux gaming will prevent this kind of thing.

jsingleton 11y ago

This image caption struck me: Minecraft is developed by Swedish company Mojang. Will future games be developed now that Microsoft is closing its borders? I hope this was added afterwards by the guardian. I'm pretty sure Tim wouldn't have missed the MS acquisition. You can bet anything Minecraft will be in the Windows Store.

jerf 11y ago
'Twould be a very bad bet against: https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/store/apps/Minecraft-Pocket-Edition/9WZDNCRDZSBB https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/store/apps/Minecraft-Pocket-... (MCPE, based in C++, appears to be intended to eventually take over as "the" Minecraft. It's behind feature-wise the Java version, but advancing relatively quickly lately.)

throwaway13337 11y ago

Looks like Microsoft finally found a way to eat Valve's lunch - release a windows API that forces you to only publish via their app store. I'm surprised this is the first they've done this. In a way, Valve has been reaping the same benefits of Apple and Google without supporting an OS. It's too bad things are headed completely in this direction. Rent seeking app stores have shown that there is little resistance from developers even with ridiculous margins (30% of revenue!).

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sago 11y ago
As someone who's shipped games for direct download, and via steam, as well as in retail boxes (oh for 70% margin!), I can honestly say that I find 30% not in the slightest bit ridiculous. I'd give 99% revenue to a platform if it meant that I sold more than 100x the product. Steam, for example, has been transformative for the industry, and has led to a renaissance in independent game production. I remember the bleak days of the early 2000s, when consolidation was sending even large developers bust, with little opportunities for their staff. Many friends and colleagues were jettisoned from the industry. Apple's iOS store, also, for all its well-rehearsed problems, has supported an industry that I honestly don't think would exist without it: largely creating a viable micropayment games economy that had been wanted by developers for 20 years at least. Both have increased sales by many times more than their cut.
vacri 11y ago
> Rent seeking app stores App stores are not rent seeking. They created a market (and in some cases a platform) for you to sell to. Being able to sell your product with only 30% overhead is something previously unheard of in retail. If you want to get 100% of the money, then you're welcome to build your own sales system and generate trust with it, deal with bad creditors yourself, deal with maintenance and artefact distribution in a secure, scaled manner... the list goes on and on. Go and ask some farmers if they'd feel hard done by if they got 70% of the final purchase price of their produce.

Animats 11y ago

It's clear where this is going. Apple did it first, with rigid control of the IOS platform. Then Google gradually tightened the screws on Android apps. Now it's Microsoft's turn. It's not just about games. It's about control of the app business. Apple won't let you sell an IOS app that competes with an Apple product. In time, neither will Microsoft.

sosuke 11y ago
"Apple won't let you sell an IOS app that competes with an Apple product." I see the MS Office suite on my iPhone, there are iMovie alternatives too. Are you talking about private API access?
mywittyname 11y ago
Let's be clear: Apple and Google can do things that would be considered illegal if done by MS. Due to anti-trust regulations, these companies are playing by different rules.
- Animats 11y ago
  Microsoft could reasonably claim they no longer have a monopoly position. One could make a conspiracy in restraint of trade argument that Apple, Google, and Microsoft are acting collectively to control the app industry.

madspindel 11y ago

I don't really understand the problem here. Windows is an open plattform. I can install Steam. I can listen to Spotify. Browse the web with Google Chrome. If you don't like the Universal Windows Platform, well. Don't release your games on it. I have heard Steam is a quite popular alternative...

vonmoltke 11y ago
The whole point of the reaction is that with UWP Windows will cease to be an open platform.
- madspindel 11y ago
  Why is that? It was still an open platform after Valve released their closed Steam platform. This doesn't change anything at all.
  - kristiandupont 11y ago
    It does if new API's are only available through UWP.
  - sbarre 11y ago
    This is all kind of addressed in the article, did you read it before coming here to comment?
  - fsloth 11y ago
    Because the threat is, Windows as a platform will be engineered so that unless the app is provided through Microsoft's store, it will be effectively crippled. Valve cannot cripple OS level features. Microsoft - owning both the OS and the app store - certainly can.
  - cmiles74 11y ago
    I think his concern is that UWP apps are the first step towards blocking non-UWP apps. Kind of like Apple does on MacOS X, where you have to dig into the security settings. From the article: "The specific problem here is that Microsoft's shiny new 'Universal Windows Platform' is locked down, and by default it’s impossible to download UWP apps from the websites of publishers and developers, to install them, update them, and conduct commerce in them outside of the Windows Store," said Sweeney. "It's true that if you dig far enough into Microsoft's settings-burying UI, you can find a way to install these apps by enabling 'side-loading.' But in turning this off by default, Microsoft is unfairly disadvantaging the competition."

superuser2 11y ago

Epic (in the context of Windows and software) is an electronic medical records company in Wisconsin. Might want to specify that this is Epic Games; that was confusing at first.

sbarre 11y ago
I would guess that if asked about "Epic" in the context of software, most people would guess Epic Games, and not the EMR company.
- superuser2 11y ago
  Really? Epic Games has 160 employees according to Wikipedia; Epic Systems has ~10,000. I do happen to have worked in healthcare IT though.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
X-Istence 11y ago
Epic Games is the more well known entity. I've never heard of Epic the electronic medical records company.
1123581321 11y ago
I know people at Epic Systems and not at Epic Games, and I wasn't confused at all, especially with the context.
dang 11y ago
We've merged the comments from three different threads, and the title of this one no longer has "Epic" in it. Though I think someone else was complaining about "Tim Sweeney".

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

At the end of the day, Win10 is a mobile OS with some legacy desktop support. I think once we see it for what it is, we'll be more comfortable with it. Does this guy from Epic have a problem with publishing these games to iphone/ipad? The game changed pretty quickly and Nadella has no interest in re-creating Win7 or going back to Desktop OS's and open-ish platforms. This is the new reality for MS, good or bad. Personally, I'm not happy with it, but I think people should be aware of what it means to upgrade to Win10 and be part of the modern MS ecosystem. edit: really 4 downvotes? Care to tell me what is wrong in my comment. Are you guys really defending Win10 and Nadella here? This is his vision - iOS-like system on the desktop and that 30% app revenue. Being cognizant of that should be a positive.

zmmmmm 11y ago
Why should we be more comfortable because it's a mobile OS? I don't really understand why that suddenly makes locked down proprietary systems OK? I do agree, the time to complain about this was 7 years ago when Apple did it (as I did at the time). The horse has now long bolted and we might as well consign ourselves to living in a world where making money from software consists of assigning 30% of revenue to a rent seeking landlord. We can expect the opportunities to do otherwise to narrow down to zero over the next 10 years. It's not good, but it's a decision everyone made collectively 7 years ago while drooling over iPads and iPhones.
- mdasher 11y ago
  Microsoft isn't rent-seeking with Windows 10. They are attempting to build a secure and trusted platform, just like Apple did with iOS. That platform and the store for the platform are valuable. I applaud them for moving in this direction and applaud them some more for doing it without sacrificing the openness of Win32 on the PC (at least for now).
  - makomk 11y ago
    The Windows Store has been stuffed full of fake apps trading off the names of other, genuine big-name apps with various levels of malicious content for years. It's definitely rent-seeking, and not in any way a "secure and trusted platform".

endergen 11y ago

Does anyone know exactly which features you don't get access to unless going through their distribution? Cause anything short of not getting the latest drivers or something or anything that affects performance or existing feature sets isn't the worst thing ever. Ok it's lame to try to close a system that's been open forever. But this is exactly what Apple is doing with their App Store, minus I believe preventing any serious Platform APIs from being called.

ramy_d 11y ago
UWP apps are subject to a host of limitations, including not being able to turn off V-sync, (currently) no SLI or Crossfire support, no .exe file for use with Steam, and no custom mouse and keyboard bindings. Game files are also locked down, which prevents modding.
- leddt 11y ago
  Those are things that you can't do with a UWP app. The GP is asking about what you can't do without a UWP app.
  - ramy_d 11y ago
    righto - read too quickly. Answer: DX12.
    - lostmsu 11y ago
      Source? AFAIK most DX12 samples in SDK are not UWP.
    - Blaaguuu 11y ago
      I don't think that's correct either. My understanding is that the issue with DirectX 12 is that it is limited to Windows 10 - So people still on Windows 7/8 can't play DX12 games. AFAIK, you can use DX12 in non-UWP applications.
      - 11y ago

pmarreck 11y ago

Can't someone come up with an open-source Linux OS fork that is designed mainly for games? Oh, wait... Valve is trying that. ;)

shmerl 11y ago
Any regular distro is quite usable for it. Valve just made a console UI. For desktop gaming it isn't useful really.

exodust 11y ago

So much speculation in the article and in the comments. I won't pretend I'm across the whole doomsday prophesy implied, but... a lot of the reason (not 100%, but a lot of the reason) why many gamers own a Windows PC is for Steam. Okay, so I have no data to back that up except... lots of my younger cousins and nephews and their friends who beg their parents (and me) for a new graphics card so they can run this or that game. They are ALL on Steam, it's in their blood. They might do a bit of homework and multimedia stuff on their Windows boxes, but Steam is a major application, not least of because the social integration and features that run very deep within the Steam network. Microsoft trying to ruin that party will be like Google trying to convince everyone Google Buzz is the social platform of the future. Barely a pebble in the pond rippled from that attempt, and Microsoft are no strangers to the art of pebble-throwing.

rl3 11y ago

It's bad news when Tim Sweeney decries the very existence of your platform.

ekke 11y ago

Nice photo caption fail: "Minecraft is developed by Swedish company Mojang. Will future games be developed now that Microsoft is closing its borders?" In the light of: https://mojang.com/2014/09/yes-were-being-bought-by-microsoft/ https://mojang.com/2014/09/yes-were-being-bought-by-microsof...

dang 11y ago

Url changed from http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-to-microsoft-universal-windows-platform-can-should-must-and-will-die/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-to-microso..., which points to this.

frik 11y ago

Windows 10 Mobile is dead, 1.1% market share of all Windows Phone version in Q4 2015, see IDC: https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS40980416 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS40980416 (or a critical non-advertisement article http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-dead http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10864034/windows-phone-is-... ) And what Microsoft does to force Windows 7 users to 10 is shaddy. Welcome to the old new Microsoft, with their evil tactics and nowadays also with software that spy's on you. So mean, shame on them. So sad, I really like Microsoft products from the 1995-2010 timeframe, and now have to replace all the legacy, though I have time until at least 2020.

whitegrape 11y ago
As someone who only uses Windows for gaming, the only potential reason I have to upgrade to 10 is for DirectX 12. But with Vulkan, I don't even need that. I'm hoping that by the time security updates for 7 are ended sometime in the 2020s they'll have released a new OS that is actually worth upgrading to...
- randyrand 11y ago
  Will vulkan be able to run games that were coded with DX12? No. Youll still need windows 10 to run them. So im not sure how Vulkan makes you not need DX12. If youre developing games, sure. But as a gamer you have no way to make DX12 games run on vulkan.
  - whitegrape 11y ago
    I think there's a misunderstanding here. Will OpenGl be able to run games that were coded in DX? No. Vulkan's existence means I don't need DX12, and I don't need Windows 10, because game devs that care about me (and my 35% brethren) will have a Vulkan port, in the same way that game devs that care about any other non-Windows platforms have an OpenGL port (or are already using an engine that does the porting for them). Technically you're right that Vulkan won't help me run a game that uses only DX12, I doubt there will be many of those games though because of many bad incentives to do that.

Eyas 11y ago

It seems like the real complaint is that Windows Store lock-in is bad (which might be the case for distributers, jury is out for me whether its bad for gamers). Universal Windows Platform, however, is an API that is strictly better and safer in many cases. It means an app can run on phone and PC, be sandboxed, offers power and lifecycle management features which the Win32 API does not, and a generally saner API.

joewood1972 11y ago

The problem with an open distribution system is that it easy to abuse, and that leads to security problems. Most of us all know non-IT literate family members that have clicked through a web advert advertising to "speed up your computer" to end up installing some bad spyware/malware or whatever. I'm happy for Windows to become a walled garden by default, as long there's an easy option to switch it off.

wvenable 11y ago
There's no switching it off -- it's a new platform. The old platform will continue to exist but it's the old platform and it continue to be harder to use it.
chipperyman573 11y ago
I'm not. Every time a family member asks me to make a program to automate something they do regularly it always involves a call about how to disable SmartScreen and always goes something like this: >Ok, so run the program. Yeah, I know it says your computer is protecting you, just ignore that. Look for a little button that says "More info". No, "More info". No, don't click OK. Ugh. Re-open the file. Ok, under that scary sentence that you should ignore, there's a button that says "More info". Click that. Ok, good. Click run anyway. Yes, I know it says it could be unsafe, click it anyway. You get the picture. It makes distributing little side projects you make a huge headache, which frankly is not something I see microsoft solving any time soon.
- joewood1972 11y ago
  Not sure I follow. For distributing apps for friends you can (and I do) distribute using HockeyApp or TestFlight or whatever. There's also a Development->Sideload app feature in Windows 10 already. It's hard to argue that the cost of doing this outweighs the security benefits. Just think how hard it would be to do a DDoS attack without robots installed via malware everywhere.
deleted 11y ago
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MikusR 11y ago

Epic is just transitioning their Unreal launcher into a storefront. So they need to launch an attack on competitor. Similarly when Windows 8 launched Steam owner (Gabe Newell) also ranted against Windows store.

WhoBeI 11y ago

A bit half arsed though.. They could have signing certificates that automatically timeout and force publishers to update often and then charge for the certification. Publishers can always get a little extra by paying for the "editor's pick" feature. Oh, and also, because users despise long downloads why not have a normal and premium download rate for both publishers and end users. And leaving an off switch in there... I think someone got a chair in the head.

mastax 11y ago

The day Microsoft kills Win32 is the day Windows dies.

pjmlp 11y ago
Hence why they are working into packing Win32 apps as UWP ones. Search for Project Centennial.

wnevets 11y ago

I hope game devs remember the train wreck that was games for windows.

chokolad 11y ago

BTW, Phil Spencer posted this on twitter https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795213709561857 https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795213709561857 UWP is a fully open ecosystem, available to every developer, and can be supported by any store. Broad range of tools http://bit.ly/1QIHTf0 http://bit.ly/1QIHTf0

throwaway2048 11y ago
That claim is in no way backed up by anything linked, everything talks about using windows store, and zero mention of third party stores.
- chokolad 11y ago
  Next tweet We will discuss our next steps with the Universal Windows Platform at //build later this month. https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795341572923392 https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/705795341572923392

sgdread 11y ago

The second Microsoft will try to lock down distribution of software from platforms like Steam and GoG to gain competitive advantage and profits, they will be sued by Steam, EA and other platform owners. Apple with 10 major book publishers tried to do same on eBooks markets with Amazon. Ended up bad for them. "Sue the bastards!" (c) Richard Branson

Skoofoo 11y ago

Microsoft is trying to monopolize an industry? Stop the presses! I wish Microsoft never entered the video game industry in the first place. They made it worse for everyone for their own profit.

kregasaurusrex 11y ago

It looks like this is going to become a tipping point for which Vulkan and DirectX offer competing system calls for accessing a computer's GPU. The UWP being shown here will be essentially locking developers into using the DirectX library and drop future support for Vulkan against what users want to see in gaming as being platform-agnostic. Coming into this console generation, gamers wanted to see games from AAA publishers be able to come out on X1/PS4/PC faster because of similar system calls; such that code for one platform wouldn't require a total re-write to work on the others. MS is now wanting to lock out developers from using an open platform such that their calls will be different and "better" than those made by an open one.

dragonbonheur 11y ago

Long live Win32 and Linux!

ekianjo 11y ago

This post is like Stockholm's Syndrome: "Oh Microsoft please don't close your platform. Because anyway we want to keep using it no matter what". You know, you could have chosen to mention Linux instead or keeping your hands tied. But no, Tim likes to be a prisoner.

gehrforce1 11y ago

Isn't most of this because they also want the same apps to run on Xbox, Phone, Hololens, etc?