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> "We’re trying to build a new kind of enterprise company where the playbooks of old won’t always work" By replacing flat meritocracy and remote work with trad
by iza 11y ago
> "We’re trying to build a new kind of enterprise company where the playbooks of old won’t always work"
By replacing flat meritocracy and remote work with traditional top-down management?
> "don't think we'll succeed teaching white, male middle managers empathy and compassion anytime soon, so let's limit their scope of damage"
So the technical director and member of the social-impact team is a blatant racist.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago> So the technical director and member of the social-impact team is a blatant racist. I had the same reaction. I'm surprised nobody else has noticed this and made a comment about it.
- gaius 11y agoSearch Twitter for #hnwatch.
- onewaystreet 11y agoThe people who use that hashtag are not the kind of people who think you can be racist against white people.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- protomyth 11y agoThe people who would point it out are basically in fatigue mode from talking about it so much. How he was not escorted out of the building after that tweet is beyond me. Seeing the slide is just as bad. No hatred ever got fixed by pouring more hatred into the cauldron. Sure, you can be the conquerer, but you just created more people gunning for you. If you are not about equality and love of all, then you are just another part of the problem. It is very much like the H1-B threads. Its important to see the system is broken and not the H1-B applicants doing the best they can in the system. I sit here on a reservation and see the problems. A university adding requirements in a job search that weren't there before for one. I've lived through a bit of it, and people like him won't solve anything. All they will do is cost the company money in lawsuits. Want to fix diversity? Fix the diversity and STEM education in pre-K and K-6. We learn to dream then. Let's think about everyone having a chance to dream of STEM.
- ta140604 11y agoIt's becoming the norm in some communities. For example, Mozilla/Rust has a lot of people like that, and one of the core team members has contributed to #hnwatch Twitter tag linked below. People from that circle were proposing the idea of creating 'black lists' to make people unemployable for political reasons; they managed to get Brendan Eich expelled from Mozilla; they're pushing for "Codes of conducts", which again aim at expelling people from open source communities for political reasons - eg things they said in completely unrelated places, like their own Twitter feeds (see "Opalgate"). Also see PronounGate, DongleGate, past scandals at Github (meritocracy rug, Julie-Ann Horvath departure), discussions/scandals around CoC/"Contributor Covenant", etc etc etc.
- speeder 11y agoI have on my Facebook lots of feminist friends. One thing they frequently claim, is that they are NOT censoring anything, people are free to do whatever they want. Yet they keep pushing for this behaviour (black listing people that disagree with feminism, nagging companies until they decide to not launch products in some markets because fear of feminist backlash, and so on). I honestly don't see how they don't notice how illogical their position are.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago>> I honestly don't see how they don't notice how illogical their position are. I have a friend on Twitter who's a raging feminist. I asked her if she was concerned about Carly Fiorina being excluded from the GOP debate since she was the only woman and actually had more votes in the Iowa caucus than two other male candidates who they kept in the debate. Her response was that she never cared about any GOP candidate. It just makes no sense to me. If you're for women's rights, then it shouldn't matter what race, religion or political party someone is, in order to support them - they're women, and should be supported regardless.
- IanDrake 11y agoWhen you have conflicting myopic world views, sometimes you just have to pick one.
- seehafer 11y agoScary that you're getting downvoted for this comment.
- r0muald 11y agoIt rather seems that the entire thread is now about this totally minor and uninteresting point, all the while ignoring the GitHub-the-company-is-broken argument. The inability to understand priorities is not surprising but talent isn't leaving GH because of reverse racism: it's the horrible leadership and the dismantling of one of the most innovative workplace cultures that suck.
- TheCondor 11y agoWasn't it pretty obvious github was broken when the hovarth episode happened? They are in a special cognitive dissonance zone, they are wildly successful and that cures a lot of problems. They have time and money to worry about issues that aren't the products, and be vocal about it. Now the community seems to be mostly pacified, they like git and github has the mindshare, but they are coasting. Or so it seems, maybe the enterprise version I've never used has some badass features.
- hitekker 11y agoThis makes me sad. I thought you were being over the top about the racism but then I saw the slides in the article: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2462e526543008b5049-705-529/nicole%20sanchez-diversity-training2.png http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/56b3d2462e526543008... My first reaction is that the language of "us" vs "them", victims vs oppressors, reeks of hatred. Hatred undermines productive conversation, which undermines any attempt at building a good culture. I would have to listen to the whole presentation before I render final judgement.
- TheLogothete 11y agoSo yeah... github just lost an enterprise customer. And I will be making sure they will lose more.
- scrollaway 11y agoFor an excellent alternative, consider Gitlab: https://about.gitlab.com/ https://about.gitlab.com/ They have enterprise services, or can be self-hosted.
- FussyZeus 11y agoWe use a self hosted gitlab instance, it's the best thing we've done since I've worked there. Incredibly useful.
- almostApatriot1 11y agoDon't see what the big deal is. The slide refers to spearheading a diversity program, not the company itself. Seems intuitive to me that such a program with only white, male managers might be problematic.
- arbitraryreg 11y agoThat is a remarkably dishonest paraphrasing. Problematic, indeed.
- 11y ago
- akavlie 11y agoClearly you haven't been apprised of the current rules. Hatred of white males is categorically not racism, because they have all the power.
- yoodenvranx 11y agoI am a young white male with no money, no job and bad health. Can I please have some of this mysterious magic power I am supposed to have?
- YuriNiyazov 11y agoDo you have an arrest record? If not: there's the magic power. Statistically speaking, a poor young black male is much more likely to have an arrest record than a poor young white male. Edit: holy batman the downvotes. I never considered the possibility that maybe #hnwatch is right.
- ElComradio 11y agoYou are comparing an individual to a group which is a mismatch. It would be absurd to tell someone to recognize their privilege that the odds were in their favor but nonetheless they rolled poorly. It's like telling some white guy on death row to feel privileged he had a lower chance of being there.
- YuriNiyazov 11y agoThat's not absurd at all. Being a white male is being allowed at a table in a casino where the expected value of the game is positive, and much higher than any other table. You can still lose, but the players in general don't. You should be thankful for being allowed to play a game with the highest expected value.
- ElComradio 11y agoIf you lose all your chips at the "black table" and I lose mine at the "white table", as we cry over our beers it would be ridiculous for you to assert that I should feel privileged compared to you when our outcomes have turned out to be identical.
- GuiA 11y agoAnd don't forget that killer quote from their internal presentation: "Some of the biggest barriers to progress are white women" When diversity initiatives become an "us vs them" discourse, everyone loses. Except for the fat cats with full wallets at the top, who have no issue with the plebe infighting as long as it's between themselves (see the not so subtly placed "this is not about socio economic class").
- connorshea 11y agoThat's not an internal presentation, it explicitly says it's "a diversity training talk held at a different company". She works for GitHub, but we don't have any evidence GitHub explicitly endorses those views.
- ccostes 11y agoHiring her to lead their diversity efforts doesn't count as endorsement of her views on diversity?
- mcardleliam 11y agoThey are views directly related to that persons job responsibilities. So Github endorses the views by hiring the person and putting the person in a leadership role. It would be different if the views were not directly related to the persons job responsibilities and policies of the company.
- mjbh7k 11y agoI've been seeing this discussion a lot lately, particularly in the publishing world. 79% of editors are white and 78% are women [1], so the statement has validity at least when talking about the gatekeepers of what stories get to be told. Marlon James recently posted about his experiences with it [2] and many writers of color have since shared similar experiences. My take is that it's not "us vs them", but a need to illuminate where the barriers lie. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/27/us-study-finds-publishing-is-overwhelmingly-white-and-female http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/27/us-study-finds-... [2] https://www.facebook.com/marlon.james1/posts/10153796709730850 https://www.facebook.com/marlon.james1/posts/101537967097308...
- dominotw 11y agoI have long been puzzled by this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905356 I've been watching github closely as they are one of our main competitors in the enterprise offerings.
- yaakov34 11y agoAnother quote is "it is very hard to even interview people who are 'white'". This is absurd and disgusting. I haven't lived in the US for a while, but lately, I keep hearing all these expressions of straight up racial hatred of white people, all the way up to taking pleasure in white people "dying off" and so on. This kind of thing can't end well and needs to be stopped.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- yulaow 11y agoJust to confirm this, I read a lot of time about black/asian people attacking those of the same ethnicity who don't agree on "white patriarchy" as being "just white inside!". I even read of people claiming they are trans-black because they inside them feel black (and I am quoting literally) and so other people must see them that way. You find this on tumblr, on pseudo-feminism propaganda sites, etc... a lot of this is collected in the subreddit reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction
- u320 11y ago> I even read of people claiming they are trans-black because they inside them feel black (and I am quoting literally) and so other people must see them that way. Wouldn't that constitute cultural appropriation?
- yaakov34 11y agoIdeological intolerance is part of it, but it's clearly not the only part, given that the very first point in her slide is "this is not work for white folks to lead", i.e. she doesn't want white allies. I don't see how much more explicit this lady can make the fact that she hates white people as such. As for German or Russian philosophers - that seems far fetched. This is an American phenomenon, and in its explicit and mainstream form, it is a fairly recent one.
- 11y ago
- cjcole 11y agoThat categorization ("blatant racist") will sadly tend to produce an endless argument over who can and can't be racist. That's fruitless. More accurately, that statement is both anti-white and misandrist, almost by definition, by equating white plus male with damage.
- yoodenvranx 11y ago> an endless argument over who can and can't be racist It blows my mind that some people really believe that only white people can be racist. It's like they completely redefined the meaning of the word "racist".
- seehafer 11y ago> It blows my mind that some people really believe that only white people can be racist. It's like they completely redefined the meaning of the word "racist". That's the point. Redefine words so that it's impossible for someone who doesn't share their point of view to have any moral high ground.
- jshevek 11y agoYes, they did completely redefine the term. And they hold that their definition is the only 'correct' definition; all other definitions were a mistake and it is racist to use them.
- dhimes 11y agoMaybe Github's words and deeds will result in a lawsuit by "white people" and we'll get this legally settled.
- BurningFrog 11y agoRedefining common words makes your ideology impossible to discuss with outsiders. That makes your followers who have adopted the new definitions fairly immune to persuasion. Some cults work like this. I've never seen it done by anyone with a defendable agenda.
- morgante 11y agoGitHub has, since the Horvath incident, made it pretty clear what kind of person they want to hire. And, frankly, that's fine. There are plenty of places where I, as a competent white male, can get hired and promoted without difficulty. The fact that Github isn't one of those is not a systematic problem. More power to them.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- venomsnake 11y agoNo it is not. Either we are all allowed to discriminate or none at all. If only some must have power to discriminate - I prefer the status quo. Since I like the white male privilege. I am fine with society without privilege. I will fight tooth and nail against one in which my privilege is transferred to someone else.
- TheBakaAniki 11y agoI wouldn't mind transferring my "privilege" whatever that is supposed to mean. Actually I would laugh at them. This "privilege" thing doesn't make me happy. Even if a lack of "privilege" would make me unhappy I don't care. I already am. The real world is a shitty place. Nothing here is worth living for.
- b6 11y ago> Nothing here is worth living for. Hey, very scary to hear you say that. My email is in my profile. Write me anytime if you want. Lots of people on HN love to help other people. Don't be shy about reaching out.
- steve-howard 11y agoObviously this is a controversial sentiment but it's refreshing to see somebody state it so plainly. The idea that I get special privileges I didn't earn is uncomfortable, but if we're going to try and change that I am scared of a simple reversal in which we punish me for being part of a privileged class. That said, I don't think I "prefer" anything about the way the world works now.
- khyryk 11y agoWhat a fucking trainwreck.
- Pxtl 11y agoI freely agree that there is a lack of diversity in tech, and that we have to bear some of tbe blame ourselves, but this sort of approach is not helping.
- IanDrake 11y ago>and that we have to bear some of tbe blame ourselves I assume you're speaking for yourself. I will bear none of that with you. Never have I participated in any way to hold down anyone because of their race, gender, or otherwise. When the blameless volunteer to take blame we have serious social problems. Better find the actual cause and fix it.
- Disruptive_Dave 11y agoI've always been profoundly confused by people/groups who choose to fight racism with racism. I'm not quite sure that's the best corrective path for this problem. But everyone lets it slide, at least here in the US. Are we just scared?
- powertower 11y agoThey are not fighting racism, they are creating it.
- slavik81 11y ago"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster." It's an inherent problem that as you fight something, you tend to mirror it. You almost have to do so in order to be effective. The problem is that at some point, it just feeds the cycle.
- seivan 11y agoGod damn, that is painfully true to the point of nausea. I am at fault for that, and have been trying to stop recently. It's funny how we (I) is okay with using old wisdom when it comes to engineering, but dismiss quotes like that even though it comes with significant experience across generation and culture. Chalk it up to young and (incredibly) stupid
- chillacy 11y agoI've also found this to be true. It's horseshoe theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
- alphapapa 11y agoMLK, Jr. didn't mirror it, nor did he need to.
- douche 11y agoHe also got assassinated before he had the opportunity. He could have been Ghandi, or he could have been Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.
- Bluestrike2 11y agoThe problem with hard pushes in the aftermath of really bad PR is that it's very easy to over-correct and wind up creating a new problem for yourself. It seems like Github is well on their way to just that with how they've implemented their diversity efforts. A lot of those quotes are truly scary, and are priming the pump for some very nasty lawsuits over hostile work environments that will only wind up creating new PR problems. And if those quotes are any indication, it's unlikely that someone is going to be able to slam on the brakes and stop things from getting further out of hand.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jshevek 11y agoIt is interesting and sad how quick these kinds of racists are to shut down any kind of discussion that does not align with their racist ideology. I tweeted a response stating this was racism and was blocked within 20 seconds.
- timcederman 11y agoThe second is a quote from a long-term Hacker News member, but he hasn't been active lately. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=danilocampos https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=danilocampos
- briholt 11y agoThis kind of anti-white, anti-male racism is poisoning Silicon Valley. Honest, meritocratic people can't idly stand by while self-serving idiot racists take over. I'm now cancelling my GitHub account and moving to BitBucket.
- lightlyused 11y agoThe above comment makes me like github more.
- lightlyused 11y agoI see the brogrammers don't like the truth.
- briholt 11y agoDone. Also, fantastically, BitBucket is cheaper.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- gjulianm 11y agoI searched for that tweet [1] and I think the context makes it different. He doesn't talk about management directly, but about healthcare as a remedy to avoid people getting fired and then losing health, housing or similar things. The article put that tweet in a context where it could be interpreted as "white males in Github are bad, let's fire them" and I think he says something completely different. 1: https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/690601512813367297 https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/690601512813367297
- disgruntledphd2 11y agoThank you for that context, that's extremely helpful. I was totally with him until the white male stuff, sadly.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Karunamon 11y agoIt's... quite heartening, to see HN call out the blatantly anti-equality messaging highlighted in this article, and to not have it buried at the bottom of the page. Lots of unsourced speculation as to what's going on behind the scenes, but I wonder if a few years from now, we'll all look back at the day they decided to throw out meritocracy (symbolically, as the rug, and realistically, as the reorganization) as the beginning of the end... Aside: I'm getting rather tired of being downvoted and nobody bothering to at least explain why.
- morenoh149 11y agopeople don't like meritocracy /sarcasm
- douche 11y agoMeritocracy is only good for you if you're better than most people. It's in most people's interest to dislike meritocracy.
- oldmanjay 11y agoThat's the core truth people don't seem to want to directly address. Most criticism of meritocracy approaches it from the angle that it is meant to give everyone an equal shot and has failed, when the real goal is to sift away those who can't contribute, at which it works marvelously (which isn't to say everyone who deserves a given shot gets one). What some people seem to want instead is some sort of egalitocracy, but I have no idea how to make such a beast productive or useful, particularly for tech work, which has a fairly high intellectual bar.
- alphapapa 11y agoYes, it should be an interesting story, how these people took over from the inside, if we ever get to hear it.
- iiiggglll 11y agoMan, I feel sorry for anyone who actually buys into the "flat meritocracy" myth.
- al_chemist 11y agoWhat about "remote company" myth? > Its once famous remote-employee culture has been rolled back. Senior managers are no longer allowed to live afar and must report to the office. This was one reason why some senior execs departed or were asked to leave, one person close to the company told us. > There was a remote culture and very little hierarchical structure which worked wonderfully when they were 30 and 50 people, but at 500, it doesn't work.
- manigandham 11y agoFlat != Meritocracy Hierarchy != Non-meritocracy You can have hierarchy and still be based on productivity and merit.
- exolymph 11y agoRight? I thought conflating those disparate concepts was very weird.
- beatpanda 11y agoHow is it 2016 and an audience mostly based in California still needs a remedial critical race theory class
- malandrew 11y agoElaborate.
- beatpanda 11y ago"Racism" is a system where a racial group with a monopoly on power in society arranges the rules of that society to continue priveleging their own racial group. "Bigotry" is when you dislike someone because of their race. And the comments that everyone on HN are getting all in their feelings about are neither bigoted nor racist; they are basic, uncontroversial observations from people who have been doing anti-racist and anti-sexist work since before most members of HN's audience had heard either of those terms.
- b6 11y agoThat's not the standard definition of racism. You're repeating a variation of "racism = prejudice + power", a component of the social justice meme I've been seeing everywhere. To me it seems like rhetorical sleight of hand, redefining "racism" to depend on a mysterious "power" component which is never adequately demonstrated or explained, or only explained in terms which are themselves actually racist, e.g., "whites have power because most politicians are white".
- malandrew 11y agoSo I should place "critical race theory" squarely in the camp of theories that do not have the elements of a scientific theories. Redefining words with a commonly accepted usage to further an agenda is academically dishonest, IMHO. In other words, "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
- theorique 11y ago
- killface 11y agoYep. This has solidified my opinion. I'm moving all my code off Github. Sorry, as a white male, I don't have to take this kind of blatant racism, abuse, and shaming when it comes to hosting my code. BitBucket does a good job without the uppity diversity attitude.