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France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi
- jacquesm 11y agoThat's logical since the known attackers did not use public Wi-Fi nor Tor as far as we know today but all kinds of plain text channels. /s
- creshal 11y agoYou see, outlawing $RANDOMTHING is cheaper than properly staffing police units so they can follow all the leads they get.
- DominikR 11y agoOnce again the French show the world what they are best in. Waiving the white flag and submitting when threatened. They even suspended parts of the human rights convention on their territory after the terror attacks in Paris.
- mtgx 11y agoI stopped "supporting France" after the Charlie Hebdo attack the moment I saw they were abusing that public support to push for more censorship and surveillance. Now they're looking at extending the emergency powers with very little oversight (by definition) indefinitely, all because the people showed "support" when the attacks happened. So I'm done playing their sick game. I hope more people (from France especially) will start thinking the same way before it's too late. EDIT: Relevant ruling from the European Court of Human Rights vs Russia's mass surveillance program: > The Court noted that interception of communications pursued the legitimate aims of the protection of national security and public safety, the prevention of crime and the protection of the economic well-being of the country. However, in view of the risk that a system of secret surveillance set up to protect national security might undermine or even destroy democracy under the cloak of defending it. http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng-press http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng-press France, just like the U.S. after 9/11, claimed high and mighty that they must "protect their liberties". You can't protect your liberties by killing them. You would think this should be common sense, but apparently it isn't in today's political climate in our "democracies".
- bvr22 11y agoFrench guy here. Our government members are totally not looking to protect our liberties. Since the terrorists attacks on Nov13, more than 2500 police raids, at any hour in day or night, have taken place. Most of the time, they found nothing. La Quadrature du Net, a frnech association for online civil rights, tried to list some of the abuse here : https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement (link in french). When our Assembly voted the extension of emergency state, our Prime Minister Manuel Valls told the Assembly "We know this law does not conform to our constitution, but [the governement] asks you not to seize the Constitutional Coucil and vote it". Six people refused to vote it. Among them, 3 were members of prime minister's party, and they have been publicly summoned to the party's siege on december 16, just after the local elections, "to explain themselves and receive intern sanctions". France is no longer a democratic country, that's why so many people voted for Marine LePen's party last sunday. A lot of people are juste bored or frustrated by our politics, so they are seeking for some people able to change that. Even if that means electing a Nazi leader.
- GrumpyBen 11y ago> Most of the time, they found nothing They found 230 illegal weapons. That's not what I call nothing...
- Squarel 11y ago2500 raids, 230 illegal weapons? We could say "Oh, this means there were almost 10 illegal weapons at every raid", but, they were not evenly distributed, just like raiding every house in a dodgy estate will turn up a lot of illegal items, but most of them will be centered in a small % of properties, so, yeah, for 2500 raids, most of them will have returned nothing.
- vidarh 11y agoNot almost 10 illegal weapons at every raid. More than 10 raids for every illegal weapon. Otherwise I agree with you they're likely not to have been evenly distributed, so you can assume there were far more than 10 raids for every raids that produced one or more weapons.
- Voloskaya 11y agoPlease calm down with the generalizations. 1. This is a leaked document, not an official one. 2. This would need to be adopted by the National Assembly, Senate, and Ethic Commission to be effective. 3. France didn't roll back on it's promise to accept Syrian refugees like others have done. Yes it is worrying, but everything is not black and white.
- rorykoehler 11y agoThey did just voted in their equivalent of the Nazi party in the regional elections though so let's wait and see... Edit: correction... vote not over yet but it's not looking good.
- rjsw 11y agoThat was only the first round of the regional elections, wait and see what happens in the final vote next weekend.
- Frenchgeek 11y agoNobody got 50% of votes, so no, they didn't. ( and with about half of registered voters not participating, it can still change easely )
- rorykoehler 11y agoRegardless of what the final outcome is, this paints a pretty bleak picture of how France is thinking currently.
- hokkos 11y agoLess nazi than your main republican candidate.
- Voloskaya 11y agoAs a follow up, their "equivalent of the Nazi party" was not elected in ANY region :)
- song 11y agoWhile I'm disappointed in the French governments reaction (which is stupid). I think you should refrain from making prejudiced comments (especially since a) it's a stupid statement if you study France's military history b) other countries behaved equally stupidly in the face of Terrorism).
- aaronem 11y agoI do hope you're not American. I'd be embarrassed to find one of my countrymen being so dense and so ungrateful all at once.
- jmnicolas 11y agoHonestly I'm fed up with the French bashing. I'm not responsible for what happened in WW2 where you and I didn't even exist. Are you 100% sure you wouldn't raise a white flag when far away from your keyboard and shells exploding around you ? Now for the present situation, like most democratic country on earth we are at the mercy of a small political elite that will do whatever it wants since they are in power and when we vote them out their twins from the other branch of the unique party apply the same politic with minor cosmetic change.
- dang 11y ago> Once again the French show the world what they are best in First, you can't post comments to HN slurring an entire people. Users who upvoted this should be ashamed of themselves. Second, please stop posting inflammatory political comments to HN. That's not what this site is for.
- noja 11y agoYes, because the attackers didn't use plain old sms, oh no they didn't!
- rwmj 11y agoAll this because 130 people were killed. What would they do to prevent the 4600 people killed in road accidents in France last year? Or the 49000 people killed by alcohol [in 2009]?
- gotchange 11y agoFrom a political standpoint, terrorist attacks are first and foremost attacks against THE STATE not the citizenry and that's why you see the Establishment is up in arms every time such a tragedy occurs because they know that the terrorists are challenging their authority and jeopardizing their power in the land. The Establishment really don't care about road fatalities or substance abuse related deaths of the populace. They only care about their wealth and power.
- jacquesm 11y agoI think that's a pretty sharp observation. The powerlessness of the state to prevent these attacks translates into a perceived weakness, effectively showing that those that are nominally in control of keeping 'us' safe have oversold their ability to do that.
- _yosefk 11y agoWell, many individual people, not just "states", fear terrorists more than car accidents and while it's statistically irrational given the number of fatalities due to each cause at a normal year, there is something rational about it. Someone killing a hundred people who would gladly kill a hundred million if they could, and who's presumably constantly looking for a way to do it, is more frightening than a car accident, because there can't be a huge sudden increase in the rate of car accidents, but there can be and there more than once was a huge sudden increase in the amount of people killed by enemy combatants. (Whether you think terror could ever escalate into a full-blown war is another question, and many don't think that, or they think that it is the common countermeasures against terror that result in full-blown wars rather than terror itself, etc. My only point is if it's legitimate to fear paperclip maximizers because they're "strong AI" and always achieve their goals, it should be legitimate to fear dead-people-like-you maximizers because they're a form of wetware intelligence with a good track record of achieving its goals, and they specifically want to kill you, rather than it being a likely subgoal of "make more paperclips". From a citizen's point of view, the state is equally powerless against terror and car accidents, and still the dead-people-like-you maximizer is way more frightening for many and it's not stupid to think that.)
- wiz21c 11y agoCould anyone cite the part of the article referring specifically to the TOR network (article behin pay wall). (Note : I say "cite", which is not a copyright viloation)
- hartator 11y agoUse this link: https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7rPOh5cnJAhVItxoKHQ-iC-sQqQIIIDAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Farstechnica.co.uk%2Ftech-policy%2F2015%2F12%2Ffrance-looking-at-banning-tor-blocking-public-wi-fi%2F&usg=AFQjCNH_isM8zx7_A8uWroBanVtDtHP0Tg&bvm=bv.108538919,d.d24 https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd...
- nyan4 11y agoTor, not TOR
- tdkl 11y agoAnd they were mocking the reactionary Patriot Act. Learning from the past is hard. Or in this case, simply neglected for convenience. Cui bono?
- scrollaway 11y agoWho's "they"? Do you have links to "they"? Do you have proof that the one "they" is the same group as the other "they"?
- tdkl 11y agoI'll get back to you when I'm done with my delicious freedom fries.
- scrollaway 11y agoI can't quite tell if you're a troll or merely have a really hard time understanding that France is actually in a very complex position here. This entire thread is so depressingly misinformed about the country that I don't have the heart to correct people. Namely people are quick to forget that France is in fact in a state of emergency and that conditions do change when that's pulled. It doesn't mean we should lie down and accept anything and everything, but forgetting what's actually going on makes everything worse. There are serious issues with the current french government but they have nothing to do with "the left" or "the right", as if those things ever mattered. They have to do with how NIH and technologically impaired France is and that hasn't changed since the minitel.
- astrobe_ 11y agoHistory doesn't teach anything. It only helps with understanding the present.
- reacweb 11y agoI think we should really investigate the writers of these two new pieces of legislation. These people are a bigger threat for all our values than all the terrorists of the world. The only good answer to terrorism is to not surrender freedom.
- jacquesm 11y agoThe cynical view is that these people are simply using the attacks as a way to push through legislation that they wanted to push through regardless. Politicians like these are just opportunists and would use any hot button issue to get their way because they know that's the easiest way to railroad through their pet laws. It's easy to get people to vote against their own interest, all you need is fear. There are many such tricks, another is to bring the important stuff up for vote in the last little bit before a session closes and to waste as much of the session prior to that by debating some inane point of some un-important issue at great length leaving insufficient time to debate the important stuff. It's all tricks and psychology, reason has little to do with it.
- dschiptsov 11y ago> using the attacks as a way to push through legislation that they wanted This practice is culturally independent and it is as old as human corruption. Egyptians and ancient Chinese and Romans were already experts.)
- Angostura 11y agoThe slightly less cynical view is that they know that the next time something happens they know that - if encryption is involved, they will be absolutely pilloried by the popular press, opposition etc. for "not doing everything that can be done". It takes a certain determination to stand up to that kind of threat.
- jacquesm 11y agoWhether encryption is or is not involved is immaterial, we already know that you can pull off attacks like these without it, so you may assume that it is also possible pulling off attacks like these with it. That law does nothing at all to prevent future attacks and the popular press being clueless isn't news either.
- khgvljhkb 11y agoI have 0 faith in governments both for understanding and acting properly in the information age. They have time and again acted bad, and seem to not even understand the medium with they try to regulate. In the information age, power does not lie with the one who has the guns. I hope everyone reading this takes some time to research how to encrypt your communication & how to use bitcoin. I also hope we will see more user-friendly ways to communicate securely (BitMessage is an awesome solution for this)
- jeromeflipo 11y ago> I have 0 faith in governments both for understanding and acting properly in the information age. Can we go without a government that properly understand the information age? If so, how? Who would you trust instead, to organize public affairs? If not, why does this kind of government doesn't (want to) understand it?
- laotzu 11y ago>For the past 3500 years of the Western world, the effects of media–whether it’s speech, writing, printing, photography, radio or television–have been systematically overlooked by social observers. Even in today’s revolutionary electronic age, scholars evidence few signs of modifying this traditional stance of ostrich-like disregard. >Because all media, from the phonetic alphabet to the computer, are extensions of man that cause deep and lasting changes in him and transform his environment. Such an extension is an intensification, an amplification of an organ, sense or function, and whenever it takes place, the central nervous system appears to institute a self-protective numbing of the affected area, insulating and anesthetizing it from conscious awareness of what’s happening to it. It’s a process rather like that which occurs to the body under shock or stress conditions, or to the mind in line with the Freudian concept of repression. I call this peculiar form of self-hypnosis Narcissus narcosis, a syndrome whereby man remains as unaware of the psychic and social effects of his new technology as a fish of the water it swims in. As a result, precisely at the point where a new media-induced environment becomes all pervasive and transmogrifies our sensory balance, it also becomes invisible. >This problem is doubly acute today because man must, as a simple survival strategy, become aware of what is happening to him, despite the attendant pain of such comprehension. The fact that he has not done so in this age of electronics is what has made this also the age of anxiety, which in turn has been transformed into its Doppelganger–the therapeutically reactive age of anomie and apathy. But despite our self protective escape mechanisms, the total-field awareness engendered by electronic media is enabling us–indeed, compelling us–to grope toward a consciousness of the unconscious, toward a realization that technology is an extension of our own bodies. -Marshall McLuhan
- akerro 11y agoAnother country is looking at banning Tor. Another country will be defeated by Tor. Let's watch them fail.
- dschiptsov 11y agoAs if public Wi-Fi has been somehow related to the attack or its causes.
- akerro 11y agoWindows 10 lets you share your WiFi password with your Facebook friends. That's technically a shared WiFi isn't it?
- pmontra 11y agoNo, that's only sharing the password and that's done by the users, not necessarily by the owner. To share WiFi you have to own a hotspot, turn it on, give the password to somebody. However I see your point: what if a company network (think a small shop) is shared with its employees and the password goes to their friends and they can connect from a car in the parking lot? _optout suffix for every network in France?
- akerro 11y agoOr coffee shops were you get password printed on a bill after you order something, the same with hotels and motels, you get wifi password after registering for a room.
- akerro 11y ago16-09-2015 Top Intel Lawyer Says Terror Attack Would Help Push for Anti-Encryption Legislation https://theintercept.com/2015/09/16/top-intel-lawyer-pushing-anti-encryption-legislation-says-terror-attack-help/ https://theintercept.com/2015/09/16/top-intel-lawyer-pushing...
- acqq 11y agoRelated: An “Enormous Opportunity” https://theintercept.com/2015/09/11/today-14th-anniversary-enormous-opportunity/ https://theintercept.com/2015/09/11/today-14th-anniversary-e...
- r-w 11y agoThe U.K. is already far beyond illiberal, but I can’t see Germany going this way. They’ve long been on the right side of the Internet, and I doubt they’ll have any need to do otherwise anytime soon.
- mynewtb 11y agoGerman politicians and lobbyists are continuously pushing year after year. I fear the public losing interest in opposition.
- r-w 11y agoI’m more concerned that most people may never hear or even care about their dwindling online freedoms. I found an article over at https://lobste.rs https://lobste.rs that drives this point home, if a bit melodramatically: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/pirate-bay-founder-peter-sunde-i-have-given-up http://motherboard.vice.com/read/pirate-bay-founder-peter-su...
- tdkl 11y agoLets see how this tune will change if Paris repeats itself there. But nah, it's not that there's a large foreign population inside their country without future prospects. Oh wait, that's already happening, thanks to Angela.
- azurelogic 11y agoWhat is more ridiculous is that shared public wifi would become critical in the event of a major terror attack (on scale with 9/11). We have already seen the use of social media to allow families and friends to connect after a disaster occurs. Given the fragility of mobile data networks under heavy load, public wifi could become the only option for mass communications. The French government will only be handicapping its people when they need help most.
- PhaseMage 11y agoI think we need a mesh topology at the network layer in order to really have reliable networks in an emergency. TCP/IP, in my opinion, is an engine that centralizes power: Which leads to choke points and single points of failure for critical systems. This is especially true for most end nodes: I'm out of luck if Comcast goes down.
- gotchange 11y agoThe French regime again showing its ugly authoritarian and statist face with these draconian bills. It wasn't enough for them to put environmentalists under house arrest and subject innocent people to humiliating mandatory reporting to different police stations 3 times a day or obligatory curfew for certain people or neighborhoods without any judicial oversight. [0] I knew it from the beginning that they would abuse the State of Emergency decree and turn the lives of people esp minorities into a living hell. [0]: https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement# https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement# ((FR))
- ultramancool 11y agoI'm getting really afraid of these authoritarian opportunists. Seems much more likely to have an impact on my life than terrorist attacks at least...
- TallGuyShort 11y agoI'm genuinely more afraid of the people who are afraid right now than I am of the people who they think I should be afraid of. The anti-Muslim rhetoric (e.g. yelling "All Muslims are terrorists" at town meetings) scares the hell out of me. How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events?
- cryoshon 11y agoOn one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.
- Mikeb85 11y agoUnfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absolve themselves of what their neighbors and family members are doing, radicalism will never be eliminated. Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road. Disclaimer - this of course doesn't touch on the root causes of extremism, namely the Saudi state and its support of Wahhabism, as well as the overthrowing of several moderate states in the Middle East during the 20th century, as well as the demise of Arab Nationalism (and secularism) and rampant inequality and poverty in many Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle...
- dangerpowpow 11y agodo they think this will stop terrorists?
- moron4hire 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism#Origin_of_term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism#Origin_of_term ""Terrorism" comes from the French word terrorisme, and originally referred specifically to state terrorism as practiced by the French government during the 1793–1794 Reign of terror."
- OJFord 11y ago> a ban on free and shared Wi-Fi connections during a > state of emergency Restricting communication and access to news bulletins sounds like a terrible thing to do in a state of emergency!
- acd 11y agoWest will not win against crazy groups by reimplementing the great firewall of China. If the state wants to control our lifes, they should have real time access to credit card and phone data. One main issue is religions and that it turns people against each other due to different beliefs.
- mcansky 11y agono book of religion pushes people to grab a knife or a gun to harm others; crazy leaders do and unstable and uneducated people follow. yet, even if we discard that previous point : forbidding religions would be exactly the same as creating one and pointing "believers" as enemies of "non believers" ... triggering more of what you try to stop general education and broad tolerance between cultures (either religious or not) is quite probably the only way to move towards non violence and peace ...
- loup-vaillant 11y ago> no book of religion pushes people to grab a knife or a gun to harm others Yes they do. From the old testament (Deuteronomy 13, 6-13) http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/13.htm http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/13.htm --- If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. --- Of course, no sane priest or rabbi would ever endorse such words today. Nevertheless, they are written there for all to see and misapply. Granted, I have taken the quote out of context. But so do religious fanatics.
- clarkmoody 11y ago> Granted, I have taken the quote out of context. But so do religious fanatics. You can't hand-wave this sort of thing away, since anyone can make the Bible say anything they want by selectively quoting it. You are doing more harm than good here. The Old Testament law was set up to create a theocracy. Many infractions of the law were punishable by death. Contrast that to Jesus' teaching: "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-8) But of course, you'll need to understand the context in which Jesus is teaching to understand all of what he's saying in Matthew 5 and during his whole ministry. In the very same chapter he addresses the law and says that he did not come to abolish it but to fulfill it. That statement has been a great point of contention through the ages as well. Did I just make things worse by pulling a couple verses out of context? At least the ones I quoted don't advocate homicide. As far as radical clerics/rabbis/priests/etc, religious leaders worth anything should encourage the congregation to look to the original texts rather than relying only on their words as final truth.
- Rexxar 11y agoFrance doesn't consider anything. If you speak French, just read the original article on lemonde. It's just a wish list from people working in police and gendarmerie. Etabli mardi 1er décembre par la direction des libertés publiques et des affaires juridiques (DLPAJ), il recense toutes les mesures de police administrative que les policiers et les gendarmes souhaiteraient voir passer dans le cadre des deux projets de loi en cours d’élaboration, l’un sur l’état d’urgence et l’autre sur la lutte antiterroriste. Even if it was an official proposition from government, there were no guarantee this will go through the legislative process. Parliamentary members do not follow systematically the government and even when they do, many laws are partially or completely blocked by "conseil constitutionnel".
- girvo 11y agoDoes the French public complain that "nothing gets passed" like the Australian public does? I am a massive fan of that system. It has stopped dangerous legislation from being passed. Not all of it, and not enough, but some, and that's better than none.
- cookiecaper 11y agoA lot of people don't understand this about the American system. It's not supposed to be easy to push through new law. It's supposed to be so difficult that only law that reflects wide consensus can get through, under the theory that this will prevent bad or dangerous laws from going on the books. If there's a problem in the system now, it's that people have stopped trying to reach that consensus, not that the process is slow when it's being actively pursued.
- vcarl 11y agoCare to offer a summary for those of us that aren't fluent? :)
- eyeJam 11y agoCreated by the DLPAJ on December 1st, the report contains all the police measures that the police (and maybe French military, "gendarme"?) wish to see included in two bills currently being debated: one on the state of emergency and the other on anti-terrorism.
- dheera 11y agoAccidentally read it as "The first proposal, according to Le Merde, would forbid free and shared Wi-Fi during a state of emergency."
- rasz_pl 11y ago>block Wi-Fi hotspots during a state of emergency but Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia!
- zeveb 11y agoWe see the same impulse in the U.S. and across the world: whenever something bad happens, people call out for something to be done, regardless of whether that something would have helped, or if its negative effects outweigh its positive effects. We see it with encryption. Yes, encryption can be and is used by bad people for evil ends, but it is also used by good people for good ends; encryption is simply the means. It's a human right to speak privately. Law enforcement can still investigate, can still use different powers to eavesdrop and compel parties to speech to reveal that speech; but it has no right to be party to private speech. Yes, bad things will not be detected as a result, but it's worth it. We see it with arms control. Yes, weapons can be and are used by bad people to kill innocents; but they are also used by good people to defend themselves, whether from crime or tyranny. It is a human right to be armed. Law enforcement and the military can still use their superior numbers and training to overwhelm a foe, but they have no right to claim a monopoly on arms. Yes, innocents will die, but innocents will also live. We see it with the war on some drugs. Yes, some people will take certain drugs and commit crimes; but other people will take those same drugs and enjoy a pleasant mental state. Law enforcement can still arrest criminals, but it has no right to arrest folks who haven't harmed anyone. It's a human right to alter one's mental state. The tradeoff is worth it. The thing is, you have to take this attitude toward all things: religion; drugs; weapons; encryption; speech in general. Once you start to carve out exceptions and exclusions to liberty, you'll end up losing ever-more liberty. It happens faster than one might imagine.
- wsc981 11y agoSocialist regimes have been te most suppressive in peoples history. Think about Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, etc… Socialism kills [0]. Or a more eloquent and less extreme read would be "The Road to Serfdom" by F. A. Hayek --- [0]: http://jim.com/killingfields.html http://jim.com/killingfields.html
- stefantalpalaru 11y agoThis is not extreme left, it's center-left. The distinction is important, otherwise we'd reduce everything to communism and fascism.
- swsieber 11y agoWhat's terrible is that we only put politicians on a single axis.
- stefantalpalaru 11y agoIt's in our nature to simplify things. Even using 2 axes like Political Compass is a simplification.
- nova 11y agoI used to like the Nolan chart too, but recently I've been thinking that even 2 axes is overfitting. Politics is so complicated that only a very simple model has predictive value, even with huge variance. I think a single axis order-disorder is the best we can do to talk in general terms.
- swsieber 11y agoIIRC at the convention that wrote the constitution there were about 5 axis involved. I can't remember what they were though. Any insight on it would be appreciated.
- Kristine1975 11y ago>Hitler >Socialist Just because the Nazis called themselves National Socialists doesn't make them socialists. Communists and socialists were the first the Nazis sent to concentration camps.
- alephnil 11y agoIt is not the first time France has done things like this. In the 90s, France outlawed encryption completely, with prison sentence for breaking the ban. As tools like ssh became common, this became less and less practical. For example the supercomputer center at my university had to develop a one time password scheme for the French users (printed out and sent to them by mail), since ssh was strictly forbidden there.
- lucb1e 11y agoI'd like to learn more, source/reference?
- alephnil 11y agoFor the crypto ban, I was unable to find reputable references. I found only one from the Register, which I consider less than reputable (and the article in question is quite inaccurate, for example they managed to call Minister of Finance at the time, Dominique Strauss-Kahn Domenica, and refer to him as "she"). The factual content seems to be right otherwise, and 1999 is about the right timeframe. http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/01/15/france_to_end_severe_encryption/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/01/15/france_to_end_severe... As you can see, you could be sentenced to 6 months of jail and fined nearly $90000 for using encryption. The one-time password telnet demon was developed at a university in Scandinavia before the ban ended in the second part of the 90s. This was a solution they weren't proud of, so naturally there wasn't written anything down about it, but it was considered better than pure telnet and it kept French users out of trouble (I hesitate to say the right side of the law, given its stupidity).
- aikah 11y agoYes, our government is going full r-tard. I fail to see the difference right now, between the "left" and the far right to which the left loves pointing fingers at. With the state of emergency, the left is behaving exactly like fascists. Now imagine the left voting all these anti-freedom laws, suspending (some) human rights (as it is the case now), and in 2 years, the far right coming into power and using the laws the left voted for their own benefits.
- tdkl 11y agoI've been thinking this for some time lately, that while the notion of radical right is known and avoided in the modern world, the radical left is actually more harmful : - it's not that known to deal with it, since if you raise questions, you're labeled as right, - with this it powers the actual radical right.
- ipozgaj 11y agoEven if they pass the law to ban Tor, you could still use it through an SSH tunnel, which is effectively undetectable.
- lucb1e 11y agoThe greater public is not going to know that. However Tor does have obfsproxy: > obfsproxy is a tool that attempts to circumvent censorship, by transforming the Tor traffic between the client and the bridge. This way, censors, who usually monitor traffic between the client and the bridge, will see innocent-looking transformed traffic instead of the actual Tor traffic.
- ipozgaj 11y agoRight, but my point was that the whole point of this legislation would be to prevent terrorists from using Tor. In reality, it would do nothing to stop them. Whoever really wants to have a way of communicating over an encrypted channel will always find a method of bypassing measures like this.
- jsjohnst 11y ago> The French prime minister suggested that they may soon make it illegal to merely visit a terrorism-related website, too. So getting rickrolled could land you in jail? Yeah, that'll go over really effectively.
- cobaltblue 11y agoEurope is doing all it can to produce a new Hitler. The anti-Muslim rhetoric can be insane at times, but it's no lie that the imports are from a very different culture and are unlikely to assimilate to a more western one, especially when they outbreed their western counterparts. What concerns me is that all this money and rage will be spent in reaction to these tragic events that kill either less than 100, around 100, or around 3000 people tops. Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and disease routinely kill far more and yet suggesting we devote effort to solve the engineering challenges of controlling our planet gets tossed aside as just as crazy as the suggestion that it's possible to control immigration with a wall.
- anon4 11y agoHitler's only two failings were genocide on an ethnic group and going on a land war against Russia in winter. If the new one doesn't try to kill off European citizens and doesn't declare war on Russia, I fail to see the problem. The current crop of politicians will never solve our problems and say what you want about him, but Hitler got things done.
- vmorgulis 11y agoLook at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January%E2%80%93June_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_J... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_July%E2%80%93December_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_J...
- cobaltblue 11y agoNothing on those lists contradicts what I said, but thanks for the links.
- dang 11y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10690002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10690002 and marked it off-topic.
- id122015 11y agoI've read that the radical Muslim attacks were sponsored by Russia. In the absence of the Big Picture it's hard to understand Political Science and who are the main Actors on the spheres of influence. All that Russia wanted was to divide their enemy. New propaganda but the trick is old. #TerroristRussia
- contingencies 11y agoMy family and I had planned to move to France in the next few years, partly in order to educate our daughter in French. Given the state's behaviour, we will be reconsidering that move. Where are the liberte, egalite and fraternite in these proposals? We can observe the exact opposite of all of these ideals: France has become a total hypocrisy.
- too_late 11y agoStatism, gentlemen. This is what happens.
- Mikeb85 11y agoBTW, this is the real news from France today: http://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/resultats/ http://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/resultats/
- ionised 11y agoAnd people thought using terrorist attacks as a way to push a totalitarian agenda and perpetual police-state was just tin-foil hattery.