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This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

• alvarosm 11y ago
  At least someone still has a bit of common sense.
• lagadu 11y ago
  I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to feel uncomfortable. Somehow they believe that their feelings are the responsibility of everyone else.
  • Shivetya 11y ago
    It seems completely contrary to the idea of universities, to challenge your beliefs, overcome your fears, expand your knowledge, and more. That real threat is these narcissistic cretins who use intimidation and worse the courts to get their way will one day influence the laws we live under. We won't have any privacy if people who want all offensive ideas and actions curtailed and boxed. Instead of running away from 1984/V for Vendetta type worlds these kids are embracing it
    • sotojuan 11y ago
      These days college is just another motion to go through before getting a job. It may sound cynical, but these kinds of students couldn't care less about any of what you said. They just want to be in day care for four years and then leave.
      • ams6110 11y ago
        these kinds of students You are right, but I just wanted to clarify that by no means are ALL college students there for a 4-year party and a safe room to run to when something upsets them. Many are still there for academic and philosophical challenges and growth, and are appalled that this noisy minority is getting so much attention. Really, if there's anyplace that goes above and beyond the call to be sure that all races, all sexual orientations/identites have equal access and opportunity, it's the modern public university. It's the last place you'd expect to see this kind of whinging.
  • maze-le 11y ago
    Most baffling is that they seem to be the majority by now...
    • adwn 11y ago
      Probably not the majority, but a very loud minority.
    • fixermark 11y ago
      A good friend of mine has a saying on this topic: "Avoid the fallacy of confusing the majority with the majority voice. The majority voice is controlled by people who have the time and energy to make their voice heard; a lot of people are too busy working on their passions to bother to join the discussion."
  • PMan74 11y ago
    The article blames "our culture" - I'd be interested to know what exactly - the media, the internet, parents, schools, sports clubs, or a combination of each.
    • rubidium 11y ago
      Mostly parents+educational philosophy of the 1990's to present.
  • rayiner 11y ago
    That's a strawman. Even the folks screaming at their residence hall master at Yale didn't assert an abstract "right not to be offended." Their beef was about an institution they pay money to not doing enough to police the conduct of other members of that institution. What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world.
    • jorgeleo 11y ago
      The REAL strawman is: "What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world."
      • rayiner 11y ago
        It is, at least allegedly, real conduct that was, among other things, the reason those Yale students were angry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/02/students-accuse-yale-sae-fraternity-brothers-of-having-a-white-girls-only-policy-at-their-party https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/0.... Something real is by definition not a straw man.
        • pitt1980 11y ago
          let's be concrete about what we're talking about ------------------ from your link: "A fraternity brother who was at the party gave an entirely different account than Petros-Gouin. Speaking on condition that his name not be used because chapter rules discourage speaking to the media, he said members of the house always ask for Yale IDs and let everyone in until a party gets crowded. After that, a line forms. That night, no one with a Yale ID was turned away before 11:15 p.m., the member said. Yale and New Haven police had responded to noise complaints at the party, and brothers were told not to let anyone else in, to avoid crowding. He said numerous students have said a woman who was denied entrance angrily challenged the man who stopped her, screaming: “It’s because I’m black, isn’t it?” It was uncomfortable, he said, in part because that brother is African American and others working the door at the time are Portuguese and Costa Rican; he described the chapter as racially diverse. He said some in Yale’s black community have called black SAE members “Uncle Tom” on Monday, making them feel like they are being forced to choose between siding with the fraternity or others of their race. “It has become incredibly hostile,” he said. He and another student who attended the party said the crowd inside was representative of the student body at Yale." -------------------- I see an incident of undetermined "real"(ness)
  • maaku 11y ago
    While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back you carried at all times in mixed-race race situations the possibility of being assaulted without recourse or lynched, or in present times accused and convicted of a crime you didn't commit or shot on sight for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine what it is like to be Jewish and have 85% of your relatives systematically wiped out in living memory. Imagine what it is like to be a woman on a college campus where statistically 1 in 3 suffer sexual assault over the course of a 4 year education, almost always with the assailant getting off without charges. Most times such people take offense it is not about feeling uncomfortable, but rather feeling unsafe. It is about fear that what starts with words will inevitably turn to, or enable, or justify actions.
    • beedogs 11y ago
      That's completely irrational, though. Since when has reading about a violent assault led to a violent assault?
      • dnr 11y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research Not to mention all the (I think justifiable) talk currently about how violent rhetoric from politicians, in the media, encouraged the planned parenthood shooter and other recent domestic terrorists. I'm not completely sympathetic toward that point of view, but it's clearly not "completely irrational".
    • d_theorist 11y ago
      What do you mean by "The concern"? What concern? The author's concern is about students complaining that they oughtn't to have their feelings hurt. I am sure that there are many other concerns out there - including physical safety - but I don't think they have anything to do with the concern raised by the OP.
  • duiker101 11y ago
    I believe it's because this people haven't actually experienced the "real world". They might try to persuade some people in following some political correctness or whatever, but the world itself wont care.
  • TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    Dr Piper's other public statements show that's very uncomfortable about and offended by many things - not least of which is majority support for gay marriage. Or any kind of homosexuality at all. He's so incredibly uncomfortable with both he'd rather they simply didn't exist. I have very little patience with anyone who runs the kind of moral racket that Dr Piper runs - which is making a career out of pretending to be a moral examplar by relying on appeal-to-authority and a lot of noisy rhetoric, and using both to justify social privilege for his beliefs. I don't care if they're religious types, economists, or any other kind of ideologues. In my world their opinions get no respect at all.
    • stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      > In my world their opinions get no respect at all. You should try separating the opinion from the man and analyze the former without taking the shortcut of appealing to the authority of the latter.
      • TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
        So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? The simpler argument is that Dr Piper is really in no position to act like anyone's external conscience. He has no basis whatsoever to claim that he's either qualified or competent to act in that role. Now, clearly he believes otherwise. That's very much his prerogative. It's everyone else's prerogative to decide whether or not they agree. I'd suggest that anyone who claims to be promoting genuine independent thought is going to be willing to engage in an open debate. "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. It's an attempt to shut down debate about an ethical position, not an attempt to encourage it.
        • stefantalpalaru 11y ago
          > So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? Only if you agree that it has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the proposed ideas. > "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. Nor is it the position of the author. When somebody tells you to grow up, they are not telling you how to feel, but how to act based on those feelings.
• iokevins 11y ago
  Per Wikipedia, Oklahoma Wesleyan University serves about 900 students and is an evangelical Christian university of the Wesleyan Church located in Bartlesville, in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. Their motto is "A university where Jesus is Lord." In this article, conservative OKWU president Dr. Everett Piper seems to dismiss the concerns of one student, calling for more sermons full of guilt and shame, as a tool to get confessions of sins.
  • beedogs 11y ago
    Is that the Tumblr summary?
  • flatline 11y ago
    I honestly don't think he was being dismissive. I think he was acknowledging that the student's uncomfortable feelings were legitimate, even deliberately provoked, and offered a prescription for how to best handle them. This is (one) Christian message, and presumably one that the students at that school knowingly signed up for (well, their parents did, at any rate). I'm not a huge fan of self-blaming guilt, it tends to be just as self-indulgent as feeling violated by some sermon, but a sense of shame at one's shortcomings can be a useful guide for self growth and development. I am neither conservative nor a Christian but I find that I generally agree with his sentiment.
    • iokevins 11y ago
      Thanks for taking the time to share these thoughts; I appreciate it. His comments resonate with a non-trivial number of people. Since they discuss human values we all share, that makes sense, to me. With respect to feelings of guilt and shame, I'm completely in agreement that they can represent a wake-up call to further self growth--but only insofar as we can link them to the human needs they are telling us to pay attention to. That's where the self growth occurs. I'm not in agreement with using guilt and shame, as tools to get people to obey or submit, because doing so focuses our attention on what we want people to do, not why we want them to do it. They're both important; without the latter, it's just obedience training. I think we're pretty close in our assessment, so I'll leave it, at that. Thanks again.
• wmichelin 11y ago
  I think that this article is fantastic. It highlights what is wrong with all the political correctness going on. To an extent, it is necessary. People shouldn't be made to feel bad about race, gender, or sexuality, but once you start to coddle them, you aren't helping them grow as individuals. People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what.
  • coldpie 11y ago
    > People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what. Why should we accept this?
    • jonlucc 11y ago
      We shouldn't and don't. In fact, if someone is making you feel unsafe at work (especially if it's because of your gender, race, etc), HR has a responsibility to address it.
      • stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > HR has a responsibility to address it HR has the responsibility to protect the firm from legal dangers, so don't be surprised if their solution involves the plaintiff being fired.
        • dragonwriter 11y ago
          > HR has the responsibility to protect the firm from legal dangers, so don't be surprised if their solution involves the plaintiff being fired. Retaliation in response to a complaint exacerbates, rather than mitigates, the legal danger to the firm.
      • rewqfdsa 11y ago
        Please define "unsafe" --- because I feel plenty unsafe as work due to my race and gender, and I feel that going to HR would only exacerbate this risk. If I may be so bold, I don't think, however, you would consider the danger I feel, the eggshells I have to walk on, real problems. I feel like only members of certain groups get to use the "unsafe" card, and as a proponent of equal treatment and fair rules, this feeling bothers me.
• sago 11y ago
  I think the world would be better if, before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view. Because 'political correctness' isn't the cancer at the heart of social politics, it is straw-manning. On both sides of every issue. I'd be surprised, perhaps even amazed, if Dr Piper had represented the complaint in any way recognisable to the person who'd made it. This just smells of tendentious reporting.
  • ALee 11y ago
    In fact, there's really great data on this same effect. Shankar Vedantam from the Hidden Brain podcast recently talked about this in relation to political arguments and experimentation related to it: http://n.pr/1uL0RAe http://n.pr/1uL0RAe
  • caio1982 11y ago
    ...or perhaps he just got fed up of dealing with these kind of people (of a different generation) and had to vent it out.
    • SolaceQuantum 11y ago
      Then it's just using straw men to vent an anger that could be cured with acceptance (love?) and understanding.
  • mseebach 11y ago
    The counter-point to that approach is the "motte and bailey doctrine". http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-bric...
  • rubidium 11y ago
    Having spent far more than my fair share of time around University students (11 years), I can assure you that the complaint is likely what the student said. It smells very much like what students today are saying. Remember the other professor who had students call the police because there were mice in their apartment?
• cJ0th 11y ago
  "I like to offend people, because I think that everyone who gets offended, should be offended." -- Linus Torvalds
  • madaxe_again 11y ago
    One takes offence, one does not give it. It's an idiopathic condition. I'm a white male, but I grew up being called Gwailo, Gaijin, Auslander, and when I finally returned to the anglosphere in my early teens, I was still an outsider as I spoke with a weird accent and was by that point a through-and-through third culture kid. I got the crap bullied out of me, and eventually figured out that it only hurt if I took it to heart. I learned to pity those whose worlds were so small that they could only take satisfaction from being cruel to me. It was their problem, not mine. Folks need to have thicker skin, and realise that not everything is about them. In fact, very little is ever about you, most of what people say and do are manifestations of their own thoughts and emotional issues. Physical violence is of course something that needs to be fought against (and this is why we have criminal justice systems which typically take this sort of thing perfectly seriously), but you can only be the victim of "verbal violence" if you choose to take the position of victim.
    • coldpie 11y ago
      > Folks need to have thicker skin Why? Congratulations on being such a paragon of excellence. Why should we require such virtue of all humans? Instead of expecting you to develop a thick skin (are you sure this is a good thing?), why can't we try to reform your aggressors in the first place?
      • orik 11y ago
        Because reforming all possible aggressors ever is an uphill battle you'll never solve. Imagine you have an API that receives a POST with some JSON. Every time your API receives a malformed POST, your application crashes or hangs. Do you a) try to do your best to make sure no one ever POSTS to your uri with malformed data, or do you b) rewrite your API to be more robust and send back an error code when malformed input is received rather than crashing? Does that analogy make any sense or is it too far fetched?
• ucaetano 11y ago
  "Oklahoma Wesleyan is not a “safe place”, but rather, a place to learn" Exactly, I don't get why people are trying to make universities, workplaces, clubs, or anywhere else "safe places". They should not be safe places, they should be places where you feel confronted, challenged and threatened by different ideas and points of view.
  • maze-le 11y ago
    >> challenged and threatened by different ideas and points of view That is one the problems I think. Some people (seems like the majority of young students nowdays) feel "challenged and threatened" personally, and not intellectually.
  • HillRat 11y ago
    While I agree with your fundamental point, I'm pretty sure that Everett Piper's Oklahoma Wesleyan is a very safe space for a particular kind of hard-shell evangelical. You don't go to that kind of school to be "confronted, challenged and threatened," but to have your worldview confirmed.
    • jorgeleo 11y ago
      That will means that there is 1 single theological theory, because then everybody that goes there will have their worldview confirmed since there is only one. Unfortunately, looks like it is also what the student in the article expected. My experience shows me that there are as many theological points of view as believers. Everybody gets their own personal variety.
    • maze-le 11y ago
      Yeah, its kind of sad isn't it. It takes right-wing fundamentalist christians to point that out, because the so called "liberals" have lost their ability to understand and respond to critique.
    • parennoob 11y ago
      Yeah I agree. Now, in my opinion, a student who goes to a strongly evangelical school and expects to not get bombarded with sermons saying they aren't being Christian enough really has no one but themselves to blame. However, you can can bet Piper's teachers would have their worldview being very challenged if an atheist or agnostic student started long discussions about the nature of their mission (http://www.okwu.edu/about/ http://www.okwu.edu/about/).
• _petronius 11y ago
  "If you’re more interested in playing the “hater” card than you are in confessing your own hate; if you want to arrogantly lecture, rather than humbly learn ..." I agree with the fundamental point about mistaking being offended (or made to feel guilty) for victimization, that being said: There is such a thing as opression and the sidelining of the concerns of groups within society that are already marginalized. This veers dangerously close to being dismissive of that fact, and the author seems to nearly (if not outright) mock perceived "political correctness" and a set of working vocabulary that has been established around speaking about such marginalization. I'm not sure that's particularly humble or self-reflective of Dr Piper. Although I'm also sure that such language can be abused (just as any discourse can be misused in favor of the person weilding it). "We don’t believe that you have been victimized every time you feel guilty" may be true, and may even be particularly true for the group of people he is adressing (OKWU students), but I hope it is tightly coupled with a belief in and an understanding of the very real forces of inequality that exist in society today.
  • HarryHirsch 11y ago
    This needs to be said more often, and louder. Myself, I find it disconcerting that the only counterweight to the "Friendly Spacers" are found on the far right.
    • _petronius 11y ago
      To be clear: I am not in any way opposed to the creation of safe spaces and contexts where people can be free of the shit that is heaped upon them by the culture at large. The fact is, the world can be pretty freaking hostile if you're gay, trans, a woman, from a minority ethnic group, or otherwise part of a group that is not mainstream. The hair-raising experiences related to me by friends of mine have made it utterly clear to me that I live an awfully privileged life in that regard (specifically, going about my daily life never for a moment worried that I would be sexually harassed or discriminated against). There are people that mistake "not being pandered to" with "being victimized", but there are also a lot of people who experience these things in an absolutely genuine fashion. So I'm not trying to act as a "counterweight" to anything, except the extreme cynicism of the author, and people who mistake being challenged in their views for being attacked.
• xacaxulu 11y ago
  This article's title should have trigger warnings.
  • chad_strategic 11y ago
    what are trigger warnings? Clickbait warnings?
• c0achmcguirk 11y ago
  Outstanding article on many counts. It also reminds me of a recent article I read on Psychology Today [1] that talks about fragile students: "Students are increasingly seeking help for, and apparently having emotional crises over, problems of everyday life. Recent examples mentioned included a student who felt traumatized because her roommate had called her a “bitch” and two students who had sought counseling because they had seen a mouse in their off-campus apartment. The latter two also called the police, who kindly arrived and set a mousetrap for them." [1] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/declining-student-resilience-serious-problem-colleges https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/de...
  • ams6110 11y ago
    Decades of pat advice to "seek counseling" rather than deal with it as the answer to every problem, from the schoolyard fight to any other kind of interpersonal problem, from "Dear Abby" and any number of more recent pop psychologists, helecopter parents, to school and workplace policies, etc. Funny to see that complaint in Psychology Today, as they are probably as guilty as anyone in bringing about this state of affairs.
• pervycreeper 11y ago
  Not to be confused with Wesleyan University, N.B.
• icebraining 11y ago
  Yet another post for HN to one-up each other decrying the "PC culture" with plenty of "kids these days" rants, while completely avoiding taking the charitable position and putting ourselves in their shoes. The amount of hypocrisy that comes with the claims that these students should "learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas" is staggering. Guess what: these students are presenting us with an "uncomfortable idea" and the response has been nothing but knee-jerk. Well done, everyone.
  • Juliate 11y ago
    The idea that people's feelings should come first (especially before truth/understanding of reality) is not uncomfortable, but a dangerous, misleading, childish posture. University is for adults, not toddlers.
    • coldpie 11y ago
      > The idea that people's feelings should come first, especially before truth/understanding of reality No one is arguing for this.
      • jerf 11y ago
        Yes, they are. As soon as you claim they are, they scurry away claiming that's not what they mean, but as soon as you say "OK then" and move on, they turn right around and it's all about their feelings again. It is very much a part of the modern PC platform that if someone "feels" assaulted, they are, and you must believe them or you are blaming the victim. This is why accusations are as good as conviction in places where PC reigns supreme, because the fact of accusation is itself proof of feeling, and that's it, case closed. Don't fall for this transparent rhetorical ploy. Arguments that only appear transiently to dismiss one point, then disappear into the ether immediately after, are not arguments, just rhetoric. (This is a general point that applies in many places, actually.)
        • coldpie 11y ago
          In what case is someone doing this at the cost of "truth/understanding of reality"?
• acomjean 11y ago
  When I was at university they had Prime Minister Farrakhan speak. Many people were very mad, uncomfortable, large protests ensued. Despite the protests it was packed. I was on the newpaper assigned to shoot the protest. There was also a debate about if a public university should pay someone that much who is that controversial (also brought up how much the basketball coach makes, often times they are the highest paid public employees in a US state). It was a learning experience. Wonder 20 years later what would happen if they tried bring someone that controversial in.
• rlpb 11y ago
  "As an evangelical Christian university of The Wesleyan Church, Oklahoma Wesleyan University models a way of thought, a way of life, and a way of faith. It is a place of serious study, honest questions, and critical engagement, all in the context of a liberal arts community that honors the Primacy of Jesus Christ, the Priority of Scripture, the Pursuit of Truth, and the Practice of Wisdom." This sounds to me more like a church than a University.
  • jacquesm 11y ago
    The contradictions in that statement are very funny.
  • facetube 11y ago
    If nothing else, it sounds like it's definitely a safe space for mythology.
    • CIPHERSTONE 11y ago
      This made me laugh. Well played.
• jmcmichael 11y ago
  We treat our universities like sanctuaries of learning, and the best ones shield their students from many of the uncertainties and dangers of life while they (ideally) spend their time learning to be valuable members of society. Some of the cries of victimization sound way overblown. I would agree that shutting down the process of learning itself, such as when students attempt to stop professors or others from topical intellectual discussions, runs counter to the primary goal of universities. However, many of the attacks on these students as a group looks like attempts to de-legitimize the victims of racism and bigotry. The minorities who have been revealing systemic bias, bigotry, and racism at these universities are the students who started and sustain the current protests. Do not conflate the cause of those fighting against campus racism, bigotry, and bias with those who seek to shut down the the process of learning at the sign of the tiniest challenging or upsetting idea. The core group of protestors desire to be accorded the same protections and positive learning environment that white students have. That some have used this movement as a vehicle for lending power to their own neuroses and anxieties should not in any way detract from us from paying attention and doing something about the systemic bias that these protests and subsequent reports have revealed.
• rquantz 11y ago
  The President of Wesleyan University in Connecticut had a nice response to this kind of nannyish article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/11/20/sick-of-hearing-about-pampered-students-with-coddled-minds-this-university-president-is/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/11/...
• philh 11y ago
  This seems to be thrusting in two directions. One about trigger warnings and safe spaces and so on, and one about sermons and guilt. One common narrative re safe spaces seems to be: "if something makes you uncomfortable, you should suck it up instead of trying to force everyone else to accommodate you". I think this is somewhat missing the point, but I can relate to it. I feel like this is the dominant narrative in this thread. But the narrative in the article seems to be: "if something makes you uncomfortable, good! It's because you're a bad person. You should be a better person instead of asking us to tell you you're not bad". And I pretty strongly disagree with that. For example, if the sermon was all about how gay people are going to hell, and that made a student uncomfortable, that's not because the student is a bad person. That's because it was a terrible sermon. From the description, this sermon was not obviously terrible. But that still doesn't make the student a bad person. Not everyone experiences or expresses emotions in the same ways. That's fine. When people start speaking about experiences as if they're human universals, and if you don't share those experiences, that can make you uncomfortable. That's fine too. It doesn't make the speaker a bad person, but it doesn't make you a bad person either.
  • venomsnake 11y ago
    > For example, if the sermon was all about how gay people are going to hell, and that made a student uncomfortable, that's not because the student is a bad person. That's because it was a terrible sermon. Well, no - the proper response to that is not whining but saying: "Since in hell are probably also Freddie Mercury, Voltaire and Oscar Wilde (and probably Mark Twain) - do I strictly have to be gay to go there or are there other ways I could take" and enjoy the show. There is no greater weapon against powerful people that take themselves seriously than mocking them and their beliefs.
    • JustSomeNobody 11y ago
      Why would you be at that university if you plan on mocking their beliefs?
      • venomsnake 11y ago
• teekert 11y ago
  Oh man, the amount of times I told students that maybe they don't belong in university is quite high. I used to teach (alongside a prof) Physics for Biologists. Constantly I'd get remarks like: "But what are we supposed to do all these hours between class and homework guidance hours?" (What am I, your entertainer??), "Why can't I use my graphical calculator, this is bull shit!", This is not why I choose biology!", and my favorite "Why won't you just let me fill in the formulas and work with the intermittent numbers?" I'd tell them: You are an electron in it lowest possible energy and you want get to your highest excited state without adding energy. That simply does not work. If you can't handle it, perhaps you do not belong here where you are actually challenged and are required to meet that challenge. It was also crazy how often they complained but turned out not to have even tried the homework on their own.
• p0la 11y ago
  There is a lot of press about this "Yale problem" type of stories but I live in Europe where I find kids fearless and aggressive. I find this type of reasoning very hard to relate to. Do you feel this type of behaviour is affecting a majority of NA youth ? Or is it more media looking at what could be the very beggining of a trend ?
  • DanBC 11y ago
    There's a few examples in some of the London universities. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11573646/Students-union-backs-excluding-white-people-from-anti-racism-events.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11573646/... http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/goldsmiths-student-diversity-officer-bans-white-people-and-men-from-anti-racism-protest-meeting-10198693.html http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/goldsmiths-student-div...
    • p0la 11y ago
      Thanks for the links! Indeed I missed that :D But Goldsmiths is an art school, and I guess it's fine if artists and creative have a more developed sensitivity and require more conforting environment. In the case of the Yale issue, I understood that about 740 people from very different background signed an open letter... I feel it's very different than a handful of Union representant in an Art School.
• steve-benjamins 11y ago
  This is just a rant. I would expect more from a University president.
• klagermkii 11y ago
  I do find it a pity that people on both sides feel that their points are so "common sense" correct that they have no reason to educate, and that people who disagree are being somehow deliberately obtuse. I think sometimes they feel it justifies to people the use of strawmen, because it's almost not worth their time dealing with such obviousness. The whole idea of "being yourself" has a lot of nuance that has been left unaddressed. Where do we draw the line between things that we should be expected to change, vs what the world must learn to accept? How much obligation does the world have on accepting us for who we are, and how much pressure are they allowed to put on us to change? Is "being yourself" even an ideal state vs chasing ones potential? How do you avoid crippling guilt if you're always chasing an elusive ideal? How do you learn to like yourself if you're never what you should be? If you aren't chasing improvement in yourself does it just end up turning into decay? I think it's a really difficult subject while both sides are screaming "DUH!" at each other.
  • alvarosm 11y ago
    Of course every subject is incredibly difficult if you're drowning in moral relativism and are thus incapable of judicious thought. This is not about "being yourself"-euphemism for doing as you please with utter disregard for everything including yourself-, this is about taking responsibility for your actions, about having the honesty and strong enough morals to judge. The "being yourself" vs "chasing one's potential" you talk about is the difference between animal and human.
• skywhopper 11y ago
  I Corinthians 13 is indeed a great and laudable passage. But I suspect there was something more in the sermon that triggered the complaint. As for victimization and oversensitivity, I agree that it's a good thing to be subjected to challenging viewpoints when you're at a university. It's also important to have a platform for responding to viewpoints you don't like. I suspect that attendance at sermons is required at Oklahoma Wesleyan, and I further suspect that students are strongly discouraged from publicly espousing views contrary to the content of those sermons. This doesn't make for a healthy university setting. That said, writing childish outrage screeds lambasting "victim culture" is not exactly a noble or loving response to the student's complaint. This essay sounds like it was written in about five minutes while in full rage mode about the "kids these days". The "victim culture" accusation alwasy strikes me as sadly ironic coming from a political wing that claims victimization of the overwhelming majority relgion and culture due to the design of Starbucks cups, the use of the phrase "Happy Holidays", or the existence of mosques. I think the word is "projection"... Edit/Update: After browsing some other articles in the OKWU "News" section, I'm sorry to see this overtly political screed was posted to Hacker News at all. This university appears to be a branch of Fox News, rather than an educational institution.
• ousta 11y ago
  welcome to modern day USA. This Dr. Everett Pipper is probably living his last remaining days of employment and will soon be on food stamps thanks to the PC Cops. Just like the Yale guy. Just like any one who is not totally formated to fit in a system. A system weak, sterile, that fires teachers on the purpose of teaching "offending" thing to kids that wear the latest air jordans - Made by a famished third world kid in some sweatshop - that will file a complaint to the PC Cops, destroy a teacher life then quietly go home eat a peanut butter sandwich made by underpaid farmers and turn on the tv - soldered by low paid workforce - just in TIME to watch a disney POPSTAR totally naked on a wrecking ball singing sexual content pop songs on the purpose of defending feminism.
• Overtonwindow 11y ago
  This is really fantastic. While I don't agree with religion in university (but if it works for you great!) I completely agree with the gist of her argument. Students are coddled too much. If you're not uncomfortable then you're not paying attention. If you need "trigger warnings" or "safe spaces" at a university then you're not ready for university, or at the very least, you have a lot of growing up to do. This may sound harsh but it's reality, and the real problems in life won't be at university, they'll be out in the real world. There are no safe spaces and trigger warnings in the real world.
  • SmokyBorbon 11y ago
    > While I don't agree with religion in university Catholics invented the university. Secular universities are cultural appropriation. This is like saying you don't approve of Japanese in anime.
  • ikeboy 11y ago
    The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". This article says "I am, but it's okay, get used to it". There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time.
    • AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      > The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match. The reply is "What is your standard for 'being a jerk', and is that standard a reasonable one?" > There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time. That seems like a fair description of how "victimhood culture" treats the rest of us.
      • ikeboy 11y ago
• zwischenzug 11y ago
  Couldn't (s)he have used Socratic discourse to show the complainant the absurdity of his point of view?
• ap22213 11y ago
  I call B.S. I looked up this "1 Corinthians 13", and I have severe doubts that a "student came forward ... feeling uncomfortable" about this homily. By itself, I have doubts. But, the fact that a president of a university would call out a student on something like that? I severely doubt that this event had even happened. It's easy to conjure up a unknown stranger to fit some stereotype that one wants to call out as a straw man. This is a pretty common (and shady) tactic. More likely, this is just political propaganda. Or maybe C.Y.A.?
• balabaster 11y ago
  It doesn't take long watching social media trending tags - particularly on Twitter to notice that there is definitely a trend of this kind of sentiment among the demographic of the social media outlets. While the article may (or may not be, I really have no idea) a fabrication, my observation is that the sentiment towards playing the victim and labeling others as haters and bigots is extensive. Being brought up Christian, I also have no argument that many of the "Christian" religions, Catholicism in particular, do seem to favour guilt as the tool of choice to manipulate their congregations into toeing the line - it's one of the many reasons I shunned the church at a fairly young age. I have no interest in spending my life feeling guilty for not living up to an unreasonable expectation of a collection of long dead ancestors that have little (if any) bearing on today's society. What happened to just treating others as you wish to be treated in return? There is guilt on both sides of this argument and neither one can stop to address their own shortcomings before judging the other. On the other hand, I have little to argue with the content of the article. If you're not equipped to deal with how the world around you treats you, you will forever be playing the victim card. Is that what you really want for your whole life? or are you ready to take charge of yourself, responsibility for your own emotions and behaviour? or would you prefer to be treated as a child for the rest of your life, protected from reality by 'yes' men, validating you because you haven't learned to deal with your feelings of a lack of validation? Nobody ever accomplished anything without dealing with the discomfort of the world around them.
  • webXL 11y ago
    What happened to just treating others as you wish to be treated in return? You just made me feel bad about all the times I wasn't empathetic. Not really, but witness how deeply ingrained our ability to use and feel guilt is.
    • balabaster 11y ago
      LOL, I actually didn't say that as a thinly veiled guilt trip... it was a genuine question... what happened to it? Where did this notion fall by the wayside and get replaced with a more narcissistic attitude that appears to be more prevalent now?
• mdip 11y ago
  Interesting read - there's a lot of back and forth between the so-called SJWs and the anti-PC crowd and it's becoming reminiscent of every generational battle I've listened to in my life. Every adult has screamed about the "Next Generation" being softer or not as capable as the current. I think it's a lack of adults remembering how they were when they were young. I'm "Gen X", the naming of which was often (incorrectly) attributed to aimlessness: "The Unknown Generation" (the real naming reason has a much less arrogant reason). I am concerned about the seeming "addiction to Victimhood" that appears[1] to be plaguing generations below me, however, I'm about as concerned about it as I would be any trivial thing. Success (however it's defined) requires one to figure out how to navigate the perceived injustices and figure out how to carve out a life. We did; they will, too. Hopefully it'll happen without a bunch of new legislation under the guise of Justice but with the result of further erosion of freedom. There's one, key, difference between today's screaming and the screaming of generations past: Reach. Just like the current crop of over-protective parents dreaming that crime is so much worse these days than it was when we were kids (when in reality many crimes against children occur with half the frequency they did when we were young), the screaming about injustice is much more visible. This serves two negative purposes: we perceive that the entire generation of kids is a bunch of weak, whining losers based on a handful of folks with extreme positions and those striving for an identity see an opportunity to jump on the large (again, perceived) bandwagon and get some attention. Everyone has an opportunity to be heard and it's up to each of us to set our filters appropriately. Unfortunately, Critical Thinking is something that is often absent or ignored[2]. [1] "Appears" being the operative word. Though I've read many articles, I tend to surround myself with people who fit the age-range and socioeconomic status of the typical Victimhood addict and I don't see any of these traits in them. Anecdote, yes, but so many of the news stories are based on little more evidence. [2] That sounds like a dig; it's not meant to be. I believe Critical Thinking is a fancy way of saying "wisdom" and is something that is acquired through experience, is rarely teachable (if it's even attempted to be taught) and is often forgotten in the face of highly-emotional arguments. It's the sort of thing that changes the phrase "Founders with heavy accents are rarely in the top 100 start-ups" into "I think people who don't speak English are dumb". Over time, and with experience at your back, you (hopefully) learn to be slow to ascribe malice to another's actions and give people the benefit of the doubt. Everyone communicates differently and I think most of us intend the best, not the worst.
• ianwalter 11y ago
  This is so useless. Why is it here?
• dragonwriter 11y ago
  Regardless of the content, it seems to me that if someone came forward to complain to you, the time and place to deliver the message you had in response was when they came forward with the complaint. Yeah, it's a university, not a daycare, and as such a direct adult dialogue about the issue should be expected. A public letter like this from the university President is appropriate for a broad issue that goes beyond someone raising a personal complaint (which this letter provides no hint of), such as a public controversy directed at the university. Given the scenario the letter itself lays out, the act of responding by such a public letter is at least as childish, thin-skinned, and inappropriate for a university environment where all participants (especially the administration) are supposed to be adults as the complaint it describes. And given the specific subject of the complaint and response, it really sounds like the author could do with some of their own reflection on 1 Cor 13:4-5. As well as Gal 6:1 and Lk 6:42. If you want to instill virtue, it is far more important to exhibit it than it is to lecture about it, though the latter has its place.
  • avemg 11y ago
    Why do you assume he didn't? It's quite possible to have this conversation one on one and then use it as an opportunity to address a wider audience. They are not mutually exclusive.
    • dragonwriter 11y ago
      I conclude that he didn't address the student personally and directly with this message from the fact that he expressly framed the public response as a message intended for that student as well as others, rather than a public recitation for others of a message he had delivered to the complaining student in person.
• athenot 11y ago
  I think this is an interesting side-effect of being hyperconnected: no matter what the position is, i's possible to find a group of people who will empathize with us and make us feel right. I guess it goes back to the old saying of picking our friends wisely…
• ceejayoz 11y ago
  1 Corinthians 13 is a pretty uncontroversial passage. Hell, it's a favorite of mine, and I'm an atheist. I'm a little curious about the actual complaint, and if Dr. Piper had any sort of productive discussion with the student. The standard "we're all sinners, but we must try" sort of thing seems the obvious starting approach.
  • fixermark 11y ago
    In this particular instance, Dr. Piper may want to reference 1 Corinthians 14. """ So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. """ Dr. Piper has not reached this student, and I fear that his heavy-handed approach means he will not reach this student. Sad.
• al2o3cr 11y ago
  "if you want to arrogantly lecture, rather than humbly learn" If you want to do that, you gotta stick around long enough to get the title "President of Someplace Nobody's Heard Of" first.
• ajmurmann 11y ago
  One thing I find very scary about this discussion is that in the past when we talked about helping the situation of minorities no one had a problem explaining what the issue is we are trying to solve. Now I'm very often hearing things like "you are a white heterosexual male you won't understand/have no right to talk about it". This is just more racism and sexism and no way to have a discussion or a good direction for a society. It seems irrational and hate driven.
• jonkiddy 11y ago
  I think there is some irony in the title/content of that post and a particular verse in 1 Cor 13 (which was the referenced cause of the issue). "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." 1 Cor 13:11
• mziulu 11y ago
  https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/663481837197631488 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/663481837197631488
• maldusiecle 11y ago
  Oklahoma Wesleyan is an "evangelical Christian university," and if it's anything like the other evangelical universities I'm aware of, it's not much better than a daycare. Institutions like this exist to isolate their students from the dangerous "secular" ideas they might pick up at a normal university. And many of the students going there, are there because their parents have refused to pay for a normal university. A friend of mine went to one of these institutions, and reported that one of the mandatory classes was a semester-long course in creationism. Needless to say, I find this article pretty rich.
• lghh 11y ago
  I have a friend who attended OKWU a few years ago. She shared this piece on Facebook in approval. From what I know from her education there, this place is essentially a "safe-space" for Christians. If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out. If you don't follow its rules, you are kicked out. If you drink, smoke, have premarital sex, are lgbtq, don't follow their strict ethics code you are kicked out. Their philosophy classes are all Biblical, if you question them you are kicked out. Until a few years ago, you could major in something that amounted to being a 'preacher's wife' (I can't remember the name of the major, but that was its goal). Isn't this just an extreme safe-space for Christianity? It's exactly what they're arguing against, but backs up their worldview so it's not an issue. It's honestly baffling because I am sure there are hundreds of very smart people there who must realize this, including the professors and administration.
  • intortus 11y ago
    Doesn't matter. There's an anecdote about a student being a crybaby and that's the biggest threat facing humanity today. Get with the program. We can deal with the Christians once we sort out the safe spacers.
    • lghh 11y ago
      > the biggest threat facing humanity today. Hyperbole? > We can deal with the Christians I don't want to deal with the Christians. I don't agree with their worldview most of the time, but the don't need to be dealt with. > once we sort out the safe spacers They are the safe spacers, just by a different name. Also, I think safe spaces are fine and they don't need sorted out. I was just making an observation on his hypocrisy and that safe spaces are not just for left-leaning people. He has cultivated a safe space for Christians and is bemoaning safe spaces for potential non-Christians.
      • coderdude 11y ago
        No, we really do need to weed out the people who can't handle the argument at hand based on personal insecurity before moving forward in any discussion. Otherwise, you're just wasting cycles on them and not the actual issue. (This addresses only the first part of your comment.)
• laotzu 11y ago
  The Gift of Insults, an old zen tale: There once lived a great warrior. Though quite old, he still was able to defeat any challenger. His reputation extended far and wide throughout the land and many students gathered to study under him.One day an infamous young warrior arrived at the village. He was determined to be the first man to defeat the great master. Along with his strength, he had an uncanny ability to spot and exploit any weakness in an opponent. He would wait for his opponent to make the first move, thus revealing a weakness, and then would strike with merciless force and lightning speed. No one had ever lasted with him in a match beyond the first move. Much against the advice of his concerned students, the old master gladly accepted the young warrior’s challenge. As the two squared off for battle, the young warrior began to hurl insults at the old master. He threw dirt and spit in his face. For hours he verbally assaulted him with every curse and insult known to mankind. But the old warrior merely stood there motionless and calm. Finally, the young warrior exhausted himself. Knowing he was defeated, he left feeling shamed. Somewhat disappointed that he did not fight the insolent youth, the students gathered around the old master and questioned him. “How could you endure such an indignity? How did you drive him away?” “If someone comes to give you a gift and you do not receive it,” the master replied, “to whom does the gift belong?”
  • DarkTree 11y ago
    I had not read this before, but I really like it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my takeaway is that since the old master did not accept the young warrior's insults, the insults remained with the young warrior, almost as if he was insulting himself. In relation to the article, those who blame others for their victimization are in fact pointing out their own flaws.
    • laotzu 11y ago
      Yes.
    • nightspirit 11y ago
      It's something I call creationism. You give something a name ("insults"), ask some grammatically-correct questions about it ("where did it go?", "to whom did it stick?") and now you created this magic, metaphysical thing which you feel really exists and needs to answer your questions one way or another. While in the mundane everyday world, the young warrior simply made a fool of himself.
• chrisra 11y ago
  Being offended is not a condition imposed by another. It is a choice, and being offended is avoidable. My response to that student would be something like, "Isn't that great? Now you know how to repent." Might still warrant some research to see if the professor/preacher was overly harsh - I don't really like the emphasis on guilt, though it is important to recognize when you are wrong.
• jMyles 11y ago
  It doesn't help that campuses increasingly operate like day cares: they treat adult students like children. A great example is orientation. Throughout the US, until fairly recently (at my Alma Mater, SUNY New Paltz - it was 1973), orientation was 100% run by students with no state or 'administrative' involvement. And it was an adult event. It involved camping, orienteering, and serious discussions about the life ahead. Now that the state is involved, it's a cringey PG-13 experience that leaves students completely disoriented and feeling like children. The same is true of the way Student Union buildings are run today. And residence life. And university police. And campus dining. And many other facets of student life.
  • veritas3241 11y ago
    I've noticed this as well. My fiancee attends a school to train Nurse Anesthetists. All of the students are previously professional nurses with multi-year work experiences. The school treats all of them like children. They treat them like they're not professionals and they're incapable of being responsible. As an outsider, it's the most frustrating thing in the world because I just want to slap these people and knock some reason and respect into them. It doesn't help too that it's a Seventh-Day Adventist school and we're both atheists. But it's the only school in town so...
  • sotojuan 11y ago
    I wonder how much this has to do with the general baby-ing of people of all ages. Kids don't play outside in the woods any more, parents pick up kids from their bus stops, etc. Is this because parents complained?
    • jMyles 11y ago
      I can't speak, or at least not much, to the changes that occurred in the 70's. But they are still happening today, and they are decidedly NOT in response to parents. At all. In fact, parents have very little power to effect change at a SUNY school as far as I can tell. Rather, these seem to be directives coming from Albany (or beyond) and disseminated at conferences that are attended by Student Life "professionals." For example, go to just about any state school (including a SUNY) and take a walk around the Student Union. I'll bet that you'll notice that it is swarming with state officials - typically students who work part time for the state in a "Student Activities" office. Maybe you'll see one of their managers, a "Director of Student Union Services" or something similar. Ask how many people worked in that office 10 years ago vs. today, and I'll bet that, more often than not, you'll find that the size of these offices have increased by 50% or more during that time. The consequence is that student governments, who traditionally ran all the operations of Student Unions and did a great job of it, are now pushed out of this function, in favor of state officials and state directives running them instead. And these state directives almost always include infantifacation of events and decor in the Student Union. I have observed this phenomenon at SUNY New Paltz, Binghamton University, the University of Connecticut, UMD College Park (although the food co-cop there is amazing and serves as a partial counter-example) and half a dozen other campuses. Every time I ask about it, I'm told that it's part of a nationwide trend. It's bullshit. It's very expensive (compared to the shoestring 2.5-3.5 million dollar budgets that student governments typically work with) and it's making Student Unions spiritually and academically hollow.
• deleted 11y ago
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• laotzu 11y ago
  This is known as the victim mentality, and it is not so strictly limited to higher education as is stereotyped. The victim mentality is a social engineering tactic commonly used in mainstream media which has cascading effects on all levels of society and has been used for manipulative purposes by the ruling class, both religious and political, for ages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality#History_and_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality#History_and_p... >Any person capable of angering you becomes your master; he can anger you only when you permit yourself to be disturbed by him. -Epictetus
• force_reboot 11y ago
  Focus in safe spaces and crybaby students is very misguided. Anyone student can claim that they are victimized or feel "unsafe" for any reason, but these claims will be filtered through academics, media and the university administration, which will judge these claims based on a specific political ideology. Before there were "safe spaces", you could still fail a mandatory sociology class for disagreeing with feminism or anti-racism[0], or face disciplinary charges for the same reasons. And professors could be removed or disciplined for the same. [0] by which I mean the narrative states that implicit racism is all around us.
• CrimsnBlade 11y ago
  >Our culture has actually taught our kids to be this self-absorbed and narcissistic. I have to say I tend to agree with this statement. I feel like every day I see more and more of the younger generation (~25 and younger) acting entitled to everything. Even in elementary schools, it is no longer the child's fault for acting up, but somehow the teacher's fault, which is a complete 180 from what it used to be. I have to side with Dr. Piper on this one. The student chose to go to this university, I assume the student also tries to adhere to the Christian beliefs. If this is the case then Dr. Piper is absolutely right. It's not his job to coddle these students and make them feel good. If they are there to learn about Christianity and follow the beliefs that go along with it then they should expect to be corrected when their actions contradict that of the religion they desire to follow. Being humbled is just a part of it. If I may be bold enough to give this student another verse to look at: Proverbs 13:10 "Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice."
• kordless 11y ago
  > Our culture has actually taught our kids to be this self-absorbed and narcissistic Actually, children are necessarily and healthily narcissistic. They need this to help them move from a codependent relationship with their parents to a more balanced one as the turn into adults. Blaming them for this trait is ridiculous.
  • tdkl 11y ago
    You forgot about responsibilities. Being a little bitch isn't a trait.
• fisk 11y ago
  To be fair, delusions about a magic sky monster are infantile.
  • deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  • vlehto 11y ago
    To be fair, delusions about climate change are infantile.
• return0 11y ago
  I wonder how "real" is this "safe space" trend that the US is talking about lately. Is it an actual thing or a passing trend which will be forgotten till summer? In any case its one of the weirdest things ever, older generations accusing the younger of not being radical enough. Perhaps the youths are right though, some freedoms are just too much, we don't need to exert them, the same way we don't need privacy anymore. There is value in safety, familiarity, coziness, instead of being out in the open wind. It's perhaps some kind of alienation towards multiculturalism/multiethnicism, and the constant bickering that comes with democracy. Safe spaces come at a cost though, as they inevitably turn to a form of terrorism, radical religious extremist groups for example begin with the formation of safe walled gardens in their communities.
• tdkl 11y ago
  I'm not religious, but this is spot on slow clap.
• johnhenry 11y ago
  If I can take a stab a summarizing the article: A follower of a religious organization disagrees with the message put forth, so an official from that organization condemns the follower's views? Since there really isn't much more information than that, I can only guess that students at OKWU aren't expected to be critical of the curriculum, and that the administration isn't terribly willing to accept this criticism, possibly due to it's biblical emphasis, but I feel like many institutes, religious or not, have this problem. Take the case of Fullerton's Math department earlier this year. Another thing that bothers me is that the story could be anecdotal -- the lack of detail makes me suspicious as to whether it's true, or just propaganda that the author is using to enforce that students should accept what they are taught without question.
• ilamont 11y ago
  The primary objective of the Church and the Christian faith is your confession I was surprised to see this. Is that an evangelical Christian belief?
  • pgeorgi 11y ago
    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) That doesn't mean that these sins need to be confessed in the presence of a priest or something like that (as in the Roman Catholic Church), but given how God's forgiveness is what Christianity is all about, confession is a somewhat important corollary. Assuming that God's forgiveness isn't something humans can produce while confession is, "primary objective" may be a pretty good description.
• bmking 11y ago
  Relevant article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599513 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599513
• bovermyer 11y ago
  Ignoring everything else about this article, its context, and my personal feelings about Christian "education," I can't help but feel like the author is not terribly professional. Universities frequently forget that their instructors and their students have entered into a business transaction with them. Students expect to receive a useful education, and instructors expect to have their research and publication subsidized, and the university expects to receive payment from the former and quality of service from the latter. Anything that disrupts that transaction - such as university presidents getting huffy that "kids these days are too sensitive" - tends to cause a failure of the end result of all three components: education itself. I wish more tertiary-institution administrators realized that they're operating a business, not some kind of wisdom dispensary that students should feel grateful for being allowed to attend.
  • JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Perhaps that missive will succeed tangentially, in making students think about why they are there. That's education too.
• xacaxulu 11y ago
  Your learning ends where my feelings begin. I'm so glad I wasn't in school when everyone was pandered to. This is the dumbing down of the American mind in process.
• jccc 11y ago
  The subject of the sermon to which the student objected was 1 Corinthians 13, about "love." It would be helpful to know what the student was actually claiming made her/him feel victimized, because given the nature of the university it's easy to imagine how the talk might have included at least some implicit comment about sexuality. http://www.okwu.edu/blog/2015/11/pat-campbell-and-dr-piper-on-gender-identity/ http://www.okwu.edu/blog/2015/11/pat-campbell-and-dr-piper-o... EDIT: Point being that the story as told by the president is likely to differ from the reality. Could the student have simply come forward to say, hey look there are in fact LGBT students here, I don't agree with this interpretation of scripture, just want to make it known.
• byuu 11y ago
  Funny, here I thought a place teaching the story of Noah's Ark as literal truth was a day care and not a university.
• VikingCoder 11y ago
  This is not a day care! So sit down and feel guilty while I tell you about the invisible man who lives in the sky and judges your for touching your genitals. This 2,000 year old book is filled with magic recipes for living after you are dead, and you should grow up and listen to them.
• deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
• xmlblog 11y ago
  "The primary objective of the Church and the Christian faith is your confession, not your self-actualization." That would be healthy if the confession were the vehicle to self-actualization. Talk about confusing the means and the end. Too bad, because everything before that point was perfectly said.
• markmcdonald 11y ago
  Are there any evangelical christians that have a critical assessment of this piece? I'm no longer a part of the church, but a few phrases strike me as strange ("An altar call is supposed to make you feel bad. It is supposed to make you feel guilty."; "The primary objective of the Church and the Christian faith is your confession, not your self-actualization."; "Anyone who dares challenge them and, thus, makes them “feel bad” about themselves, is a “hater,” a “bigot,” an “oppressor,” and a “victimizer.”) I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.
  • collinmanderson 11y ago
    "The primary objective of the Church and the Christian faith is your confession" - Yes, that seems a bit extreme. (Though I'm Catholic, not "Evangelical" in the sense you mean). Offending people is ok, but I hope the _goal_ isn't to make people feel guilty. :)
• jdeisenberg 11y ago
  I parted company with the article at this line: "The primary objective of the Church and the Christian faith is your confession, not your self-actualization." That's at odds with education, which should have a goal of assisting you in living up to your full potential. (Acknowledging guilt of wrongdoing can be part of living up to one's potential, but I don't consider it a primary goal of education.)
• michaelrhansen 11y ago
  oh man - I thought this article might just break hacker news the minute I saw the title.
• licoricetic 11y ago
  Facts of the underlying matter aside, this is an incredible immature piece that I expect from a young student who hasn't learned logic and rhetoric or didactics, not a University President.
• netcan 11y ago
  I don't live in the states, and this whole trigger warnings, safe-place and extreme sensitivity politically correct or otherwise that is being talked about all of a sudden was/is surprising to me. I didn't think The US is where something like this would take hold. I've spoken to a few people who experience universities in the US recently and heard very different views. One was that young americans are more political than they had ever been. Another thought it was us peering into the world of internet thought bubble generations, people who "grew up" within one. Another thought it was plain intolerance in a literal sense, very little ability to tolerate others that they find in any way offensive.. Not sure what to make of it. Curious.
• tuxguy 11y ago
  Irrespective of whether you agree with the article, the tone is very condescending. Coming from a university president, it shows OWU in very poor light imho.
• a-saleh 11y ago
  I am reading a response of a pastor to a students complaint on a sermon. If I could read the sermon, or the complaint, I could comment on the response to the complaint.
• deltanine 11y ago
  how is this hacker talk? can someone PLEASE talk about hacking ffs?!
• deltanine 11y ago
  i thought this was hacker talk? can someone PLEASE talk about hacking ffs?!
• bobthechef 11y ago
  Part of being an adult is realizing that you are powerless. It's a break from self-centered megalomania and "show" mentality. Part of being an adult is embracing suffering and pain. They are instructive. They are gifts. They teach us about ourselves and others and the world. Embrace them. Be grateful. Accept them humbly. Be humble. Only pride refuses pain and becomes indignant, says it is "too good" for it. Only pride boasts or complains about pain. Only pride conceals and deceives--itself!--at the altar of self. Only pride turns pain into some grandiose undertaking. Only pride wallows in self-pity. Only pride assaults others in self-righteousness and entitlement. Life is the crucible in which pain and suffering are just another way you are made better...if you accept them and kill, and resolve to kill, your pride.
• bobthechef 11y ago
  The old word for "safe-space" used to be "mental hospital". Seriously, if you think you can hold the world hostage to your issues, you are sadly deluded, sadly arrogant, and sadly self-centered. It's worse than childish. It's crazy. And no amount of Oprah-style false compassion can conceal that. As for the horrifying collectivism and grandiose, mobbish character of the comments, direct the dagger inward at your own pride, arrogance, self-righteousness, and depraved views, as a personal goal of your life. Mind your own business. There is no "we".
  • DanBC 11y ago
    > The old word for "safe-space" used to be "mental hospital". No it didn't.
• BrandoElFollito 11y ago
  I find it fascinating that a university in the US can be so religious and yet have a curriculum in, say, physics. I hope they do not have conflicts of interest when it comes to use good and gravity in the same sentence.
  • hk__2 11y ago
    FYI Newton was a very religious person. Wikipedia even has a whole article dedicated to his religious views.
    • BrandoElFollito 11y ago
      Newton is from ca. 1700. I am taking about the world today.