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I usually don't get annoyed at fans wearing rose-tinted glasses (aka fanboyism), but I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockh

I usually don't get annoyed at fans wearing rose-tinted glasses (aka fanboyism), but I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockholm syndrome. We're heading for a world where advanced users might not be allowed to interact with their devices because They (et al.) Know Best. Protecting knowledgeable users from running arbitrary code is generally a pretty solved problem. There are layers of trust in the system, and human connections that keep the system alive. This delegation of critical thinking to Apple is an unfortunate path. P.S. I say all of this as someone who has recently converted to iOS from Android after many years of loving Google Nexus devices, and wanted to see what the integrated design of the iPhone 6s Plus was like. I absolutely don't support ANY of the major technology companies as people who won't do the wrong thing so that they can make more money. They're all self-interested actors! We should never forget that. They can be just as evil as big oil or the textile industry. EDIT: to fix phrasing and the omission of a couple words

ohazi 11y ago
> rose-tinted glasses In this case, the fans are literally not being allowed to wear their rose-tinted glasses...
- idibidiart 11y ago
  LOL, up voting.
  - idibidiart 11y ago
    Down voted to -4. Really? Are you guys just completely lacking in humor or are you just angry at anyone who laughs because you were brought up with no appreciation for laughter? What is it with super fragile egos? It's not about you! Don't be so vain. Jesus.
    - Kapow 11y ago
      Do you really think everyone who finds a post entertaining is compelled to reply with "LOL"? This place would be full of substanceless posts like that, you'd have to wade through them all to find any actual discussion. It's considered rude to post when you have nothing to say.
      - idibidiart 11y ago
        Considered by whom? yourself? others like you? the whole of humanity? Obviously, to many of us, emotion is not void of information, but to you it and others it may be.
zanny 11y ago
This is literally the capstone of iOS. You have no power, or privlidge. You work in the languages the master wants, using the tools the master has you buy, using the APIs the master blesses you with. You never come close to owning the device, and you don't own your software for it. The greatest irony is how many walked into this with open arms, and how many continue to praise this. iOS only thrives on the developers who sacrifice their power to Apple's will. Apple stands atop a glass house built on lock in and memes about how good their products are. Its the users that pledge allegiance to that manipulation that hold it together.
- will_pseudonym 11y ago
  I wouldn't say you have no power or privilege. For their 30%, they are putting your device in a market that has the most affluent users of technology, in the world. There's a reason that they've been able to get away with what they're doing--they're giving consumers what they want. It's just that important things like this aren't decided by popularity, e.g. freedom. They're rights bestowed to us by our government. I'm not saying that what Apple is doing is right or wrong. I am saying that them doing it is a great loss of freedom for users and developers.
  - mondoshawan 11y ago
    Rights are not bestowed upon us from our government -- they are natural and inalienable and a part of what makes us human.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - burnte 11y ago
      While I'm a rabid defender of rights, I don't agree they are not bestowed upon us, nor that they are unable to be taken away. Ask anyone in prison or a wartorn or repressive country if they still have all of their human rights. They don't. Rights CAN be taken away, and routinely are. The question is do we fight to retake and retain them.
pheroden 11y ago
I on the other hand love it. I use Linux, Windows and OSX on a daily basis. I use an iPhone and an Android tablet. Each device has its purpose, and levels of trust, and a kowegeable buyer knows the strenghts and weaknesses of each platform going in. If you're getting upset that Apple is enforcing its rules for what it views as a security concern, is silly in my opinion. If you don't want someone overzealously protecting you, then don't get an iPhone. If you don't want all your data sent to a server, then don't get an android or windows device. No one is ever forced to use an iPhone personally, and the flux devs knew they were breaking a set of rules which is why they were using the approach they were. No rose coloured glasses here, I just don't get worked up over things I could have seen coming a mile away.
- mikeash 11y ago
  What if I don't want somebody "protecting" me but I also don't want Google or Microsoft taking all my data? Apple enforcing its rules by forcing somebody to take down content hosted on a web page, content which does not infringe any copyrights or trademarks or other IP, is stepping out of bounds, in my opinion. There are a lot of things I dislike about Apple, but this crosses a line for me.
  - MBCook 11y ago
    The market has basically failed your particular niche. Until enough people (or lawmakers) step up on privacy Apple is your best bet, all things considered. Sorry.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      That's my conclusion as well. I use an iPhone but I'm not terribly happy with it. It may be the best choice, but that doesn't mean I can't complain about its many deficiencies, among which Apple's stupid "security" policies are some of the worst.
      - MBCook 11y ago
        I'm pretty happy in Apple land, but the battle was lost years ago when it comes to the internet. Gmail tracks me. Facebook tracks me even though I'm not a member. YouTube tracks me because I use Gmail. Google tracks me because of Gmail. Everything tracks me. And the only solution is to throw out every piece of electronics I own. That's not happening. We need laws. Some day, perhaps. Too bad the TPP didn't include EU countries (I know), maybe there would have been ONE benefit.
stcredzero 11y ago
I usually don't get annoyed at fans wearing rose-tinted glasses You realize that darkly tinted rose colored glasses would actually work better than f.lux? (I know because I have a narrowband 470nm filter and I've looked at screens under f.lux, and there is often significant blue light coming out of very red looking screens. It doesn't take much to suppress melatonin secretion, especially with prolonged exposure.)
- copperx 11y ago
  Probably the backlight leaking through? There's an opportunity for Apple -- just include backlighting specially designed for nighttime with no blue light. Switch it at night. That would have been Jobs' approach to the problem.
MBCook 11y ago
f.lux cannot ship an iOS App using the Documented APIs, because the APIs we use are not there. In the last 5 years, we have had numerous conversations with Apple about our product and what would be required to make it work with iOS. Using undocumented APIs has ALWAYS resulted in getting kicked out. They violated the letter and spirit of the program. I'm sorry Apple doesn't expose the APIs they need, but this is cut and dry.
- fpgeek 11y ago
  ALWAYS? I wouldn't be so sure about that: http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/google_mobile_uses_private_iphone_apis http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/google_mobile_uses_private...
copperx 11y ago
> Protecting knowledgeable users from running arbitrary code is generally a pretty solved problem. Surely you're joking.
- will_pseudonym 11y ago
  Have you ever used OS X? I have never had a problem caused by running binaries I've downloaded from the internet. I understand how to read signals of trust and using my brain to vet sources. Why should my phone or tablet be any different? It's a risk, sure, but even Apple's approval isn't foolproof!
  - Bjartr 11y ago
    >I understand how to read signals of trust and using my brain to vet sources. History shows the average member of the population is not so skilled at discerning such signals correctly.
  - rarepostinlurkr 11y ago
    The existence of things like MacKeeper seem to indicate otherwise.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  Perhaps "solved," as in "proven futile"? ;)
Steko 11y ago
> I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockholm syndrome I think Apple offers a deal that has it's good and bad points and you are free to buy from many competitors. And yet, dozens of times per year on HN, we're told that Apple is essentially executing William Wallace and freedom itself for routine decisions that seem entirely consistent with it's longstanding policies on private API's, sideloading, end runs around enterprise deployment, etc. > We're heading for a world where advanced users might not be allowed to interact with their devices because They (et al.) Know Best. Presumably if this is vital and important to advanced users they can choose a device that allows them to do this. > Protecting knowledgeable users from running arbitrary code is generally a pretty solved problem. In strawmanville, every problem is 'generally pretty much solved'. 'Just let knowledgable users do it' is non-serious imho; anything 'knowledgable users' can do without a lot of effort/money you should assume anyone can and will do it. Jailbreaking has sometimes been associated with 'advanced users', unless you were in China and the guy who sold you the phone did it for you.
hornetblack 11y ago
Given the app involved would you say "Rose tinted screens"
parasubvert 11y ago
"I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockholm syndrome." Brand loyalty is a reasonable thing. Look, most software for most people since the dawn of the personal computer era has been about begging, cajoling, threatening, and screaming at your vendor to support your pet feature. Apple has succeeded in part because it by and large does listen to its customers, it just usually takes far too long to do it the "Apple way" ... but not so long that one wants to switch platforms. In this case, I filed feedback with Apple (which does get read), asking for f.lux support on iOS and/or documented APIs they can use. I'll also file this away in my "reasons Apple sucks" list. This list tends to grow and shrink over time, which means I have some faith in being patient. With Microsoft in the 90s it just grew unbounded until Windows 2000 was released. The open source world of course allows me to tweak whatever I want, and I did own an Android Samsung GS3 once, but couldn't really stand it. The Linux desktop (ran one from 1994 - 2001) doesn't suck but it makes my eyes bleed: not my thing once I switched to OS X.

ohazi 11y ago

> rose-tinted glasses In this case, the fans are literally not being allowed to wear their rose-tinted glasses...

idibidiart 11y ago
LOL, up voting.
- idibidiart 11y ago
  Down voted to -4. Really? Are you guys just completely lacking in humor or are you just angry at anyone who laughs because you were brought up with no appreciation for laughter? What is it with super fragile egos? It's not about you! Don't be so vain. Jesus.
  - Kapow 11y ago
    Do you really think everyone who finds a post entertaining is compelled to reply with "LOL"? This place would be full of substanceless posts like that, you'd have to wade through them all to find any actual discussion. It's considered rude to post when you have nothing to say.
    - idibidiart 11y ago
      Considered by whom? yourself? others like you? the whole of humanity? Obviously, to many of us, emotion is not void of information, but to you it and others it may be.

zanny 11y ago

This is literally the capstone of iOS. You have no power, or privlidge. You work in the languages the master wants, using the tools the master has you buy, using the APIs the master blesses you with. You never come close to owning the device, and you don't own your software for it. The greatest irony is how many walked into this with open arms, and how many continue to praise this. iOS only thrives on the developers who sacrifice their power to Apple's will. Apple stands atop a glass house built on lock in and memes about how good their products are. Its the users that pledge allegiance to that manipulation that hold it together.

will_pseudonym 11y ago
I wouldn't say you have no power or privilege. For their 30%, they are putting your device in a market that has the most affluent users of technology, in the world. There's a reason that they've been able to get away with what they're doing--they're giving consumers what they want. It's just that important things like this aren't decided by popularity, e.g. freedom. They're rights bestowed to us by our government. I'm not saying that what Apple is doing is right or wrong. I am saying that them doing it is a great loss of freedom for users and developers.
- mondoshawan 11y ago
  Rights are not bestowed upon us from our government -- they are natural and inalienable and a part of what makes us human.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - burnte 11y ago
    While I'm a rabid defender of rights, I don't agree they are not bestowed upon us, nor that they are unable to be taken away. Ask anyone in prison or a wartorn or repressive country if they still have all of their human rights. They don't. Rights CAN be taken away, and routinely are. The question is do we fight to retake and retain them.

pheroden 11y ago

I on the other hand love it. I use Linux, Windows and OSX on a daily basis. I use an iPhone and an Android tablet. Each device has its purpose, and levels of trust, and a kowegeable buyer knows the strenghts and weaknesses of each platform going in. If you're getting upset that Apple is enforcing its rules for what it views as a security concern, is silly in my opinion. If you don't want someone overzealously protecting you, then don't get an iPhone. If you don't want all your data sent to a server, then don't get an android or windows device. No one is ever forced to use an iPhone personally, and the flux devs knew they were breaking a set of rules which is why they were using the approach they were. No rose coloured glasses here, I just don't get worked up over things I could have seen coming a mile away.

mikeash 11y ago
What if I don't want somebody "protecting" me but I also don't want Google or Microsoft taking all my data? Apple enforcing its rules by forcing somebody to take down content hosted on a web page, content which does not infringe any copyrights or trademarks or other IP, is stepping out of bounds, in my opinion. There are a lot of things I dislike about Apple, but this crosses a line for me.
- MBCook 11y ago
  The market has basically failed your particular niche. Until enough people (or lawmakers) step up on privacy Apple is your best bet, all things considered. Sorry.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    That's my conclusion as well. I use an iPhone but I'm not terribly happy with it. It may be the best choice, but that doesn't mean I can't complain about its many deficiencies, among which Apple's stupid "security" policies are some of the worst.
    - MBCook 11y ago
      I'm pretty happy in Apple land, but the battle was lost years ago when it comes to the internet. Gmail tracks me. Facebook tracks me even though I'm not a member. YouTube tracks me because I use Gmail. Google tracks me because of Gmail. Everything tracks me. And the only solution is to throw out every piece of electronics I own. That's not happening. We need laws. Some day, perhaps. Too bad the TPP didn't include EU countries (I know), maybe there would have been ONE benefit.

stcredzero 11y ago

I usually don't get annoyed at fans wearing rose-tinted glasses You realize that darkly tinted rose colored glasses would actually work better than f.lux? (I know because I have a narrowband 470nm filter and I've looked at screens under f.lux, and there is often significant blue light coming out of very red looking screens. It doesn't take much to suppress melatonin secretion, especially with prolonged exposure.)

copperx 11y ago
Probably the backlight leaking through? There's an opportunity for Apple -- just include backlighting specially designed for nighttime with no blue light. Switch it at night. That would have been Jobs' approach to the problem.

MBCook 11y ago

f.lux cannot ship an iOS App using the Documented APIs, because the APIs we use are not there. In the last 5 years, we have had numerous conversations with Apple about our product and what would be required to make it work with iOS. Using undocumented APIs has ALWAYS resulted in getting kicked out. They violated the letter and spirit of the program. I'm sorry Apple doesn't expose the APIs they need, but this is cut and dry.

fpgeek 11y ago
ALWAYS? I wouldn't be so sure about that: http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/google_mobile_uses_private_iphone_apis http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/google_mobile_uses_private...

copperx 11y ago

> Protecting knowledgeable users from running arbitrary code is generally a pretty solved problem. Surely you're joking.

will_pseudonym 11y ago
Have you ever used OS X? I have never had a problem caused by running binaries I've downloaded from the internet. I understand how to read signals of trust and using my brain to vet sources. Why should my phone or tablet be any different? It's a risk, sure, but even Apple's approval isn't foolproof!
- Bjartr 11y ago
  >I understand how to read signals of trust and using my brain to vet sources. History shows the average member of the population is not so skilled at discerning such signals correctly.
- rarepostinlurkr 11y ago
  The existence of things like MacKeeper seem to indicate otherwise.
Piskvorrr 11y ago
Perhaps "solved," as in "proven futile"? ;)

Steko 11y ago

> I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockholm syndrome I think Apple offers a deal that has it's good and bad points and you are free to buy from many competitors. And yet, dozens of times per year on HN, we're told that Apple is essentially executing William Wallace and freedom itself for routine decisions that seem entirely consistent with it's longstanding policies on private API's, sideloading, end runs around enterprise deployment, etc. > We're heading for a world where advanced users might not be allowed to interact with their devices because They (et al.) Know Best. Presumably if this is vital and important to advanced users they can choose a device that allows them to do this. > Protecting knowledgeable users from running arbitrary code is generally a pretty solved problem. In strawmanville, every problem is 'generally pretty much solved'. 'Just let knowledgable users do it' is non-serious imho; anything 'knowledgable users' can do without a lot of effort/money you should assume anyone can and will do it. Jailbreaking has sometimes been associated with 'advanced users', unless you were in China and the guy who sold you the phone did it for you.

hornetblack 11y ago

Given the app involved would you say "Rose tinted screens"

parasubvert 11y ago

"I feel that people sticking up for Apple here is some variant of the Stockholm syndrome." Brand loyalty is a reasonable thing. Look, most software for most people since the dawn of the personal computer era has been about begging, cajoling, threatening, and screaming at your vendor to support your pet feature. Apple has succeeded in part because it by and large does listen to its customers, it just usually takes far too long to do it the "Apple way" ... but not so long that one wants to switch platforms. In this case, I filed feedback with Apple (which does get read), asking for f.lux support on iOS and/or documented APIs they can use. I'll also file this away in my "reasons Apple sucks" list. This list tends to grow and shrink over time, which means I have some faith in being patient. With Microsoft in the 90s it just grew unbounded until Windows 2000 was released. The open source world of course allows me to tweak whatever I want, and I did own an Android Samsung GS3 once, but couldn't really stand it. The Linux desktop (ran one from 1994 - 2001) doesn't suck but it makes my eyes bleed: not my thing once I switched to OS X.