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Large Companies Game H-1B Visa Program

• nopinsight 11y ago
  A simple rule change that seems fair and will improve the view of American public towards H1B is visa bidding based on salary (as opposed to first-come, first-served). Since H1B is supposed to bring in rare foreign talents to do the jobs not enough Americans are available to do, salary should reflect that. If only the highest paid people receive the visa, then the public would not complain as much about replacing American workers for wage reason. (Even startups with limited budget often can afford $80,000 these outsourcing firms pay their top 25th percentile H1B employees. [1] For a technical co-founder role in a Bay area VC-backed startup, it should be higher still.) Why has this obvious modification not been implemented? I suppose it does not need Congressional approval. Is it because the change would be against certain major corporate interests? [1] Relevant infographics http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing... --- Response to objections: Objections below regarding salary differences between fields (scientists vs bankers) and costs of living in different areas can be addressed by considering average salary in each field and area. For example, how much higher, in percentage terms, the minimum salary of the proposed H1B is, compared to the average of comparable positions in the same area. (Details need to be worked out, but the same is true for other important systems.) Assistance to startups can be given using a point system (like Canadian visa) that grants extra points to applications from smaller companies. This extra benefit would also help level the playing field in terms of overhead costs which is a much larger burden for these companies.
  • jzwinck 11y ago
    Rather than a corporate conspiracy, your suggestion won't be implemented because it would exclude most scientists from the program in favor of bankers.
    • jfim 11y ago
      It would also increase the compensation of scientists (who also have other options than the H1B visa, such as the O1).
    • Fede_V 11y ago
      Scientists applying for academic positions do not count against the H1B limit. That only applies for academic position though, not work in private industry.
  • sokoloff 11y ago
    That would tend to concentrate all the H1-Bs in high cost of living areas and in high-salary fields, but other than that, it seems like a reasonable modification, provided that the companies are bidding on the minimum salary they'll pay, not the precise salary (to allow them some flexibility on the upside, but to still make it a market).
    • wlesieutre 11y ago
      Is there a standard cost of living adjustment that the government tracks (how are federal salary scales determined for the same job in SF vs DC vs wherever)? If so, you could weight the H1-B salary auctions in the same way. Wouldn't solve the weighting toward high-salary fields, but should make weighting toward $3000/month for a closet areas like SF less of a problem.
      • uremog 11y ago
        Yes. The gov has both cost of living (COLA) and avg pay per field per location (Locality) tables.
    • _delirium 11y ago
      Isn't concentrating them towards high-salary fields exactly what should happen? The stated point of H-1Bs is to solve skill shortages, and fields with relatively low wages presumably have no skill shortage, or the supply/demand imbalance would have driven the prevailing wages up.
      • sokoloff 11y ago
        Though I love the market system in general, it's pretty clear to me that neither salary and skills nor salary and societal good are anywhere near linear (or even monotonic for that matter) across fields. School teachers, nurses, and regional pilots are three fields I can think of where we may well have skill shortages despite fairly low wages. (in the third case, I think it's because of low wages, but no matter...)
        • 11y ago
  • scient 11y ago
    There actually is a salary condition in the requirements. In order to apply for the visa, the company needs to submit a job description along with the salary to the DOL, who then either approves or denies it. The salary for the position has to be above average for the position in the US. Yet this does not seem to stop any of these companies.
    • SeanBoocock 11y ago
      The article describes a loophole by which companies like Tata can pay their H1B workers anything north of $60,000 instead of market rate for the position.
      • lukeschlather 11y ago
        $60k sounds fine, it just should have been indexed to CPI back when the law was passed (I think in 1994?) http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=019f28cb2b081515d27508dd0c18321f&node=pt20.3.655&rgn=div5#sp20.3.655.h http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=019f28cb2b081515d27... In 1994 dollars, that's about $96k.
      • ojbyrne 11y ago
        I wish that they had more detail on that "loophole" - every H-1B application I've seen has to meet the prevailing wage determination for the place where the person will be employed. Perhaps they use a rural location.
        • Lawtonfogle 11y ago
          Fudging job duties is what I'm use to. They will have job duties broken down for the lowest paying position, with a 5% other work, but on the job they will be doing work of a better paid position, with that 5% other work constituting 90% of what they are doing.
          • ojbyrne 11y ago
            Which is not actually a loophole, it's illegal. If a job is substantially different from what it was supposed to be, you're supposed to get it reclassified.
  • JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    A proposal that money buy privilege? In the land of the free and the home of the brave? Its counter to everything we're supposed to stand for.
    • humanrebar 11y ago
      Why not? The market, at least, is signalling that some skills are more valuable than others. How else will we decide? Bureaucrats and politicians picking interest groups? That's why technology workers are exempt from overtime rules
      • bduerst 11y ago
        >How else will we decide? Opening up the archaic caps on talented H1B labor. Clearly there is demand for it.
        • UK-AL 11y ago
          Your still rationing. Who works out who is and who doesn't come? My ideal solution would be a gradual removal of all barriers to entry. However that isn't possible. So why not make H1B open to all types of workers(not just on job titles/industries), and build in a bidding system based on salary. Maybe a system if you pay a substantial amount of salary, you're allowed unlimited.
          • bduerst 11y ago
            Why even implement a bidding system at all? The auction is a solution to the problem that the cap creates. Remove the cap and you don't need an auction. H1B visas traditionally have been for skilled labor, under the assumption that these educated workers will help stimulate the economy. This is good as long as the workers don't drive down the wages for citizens working the same jobs, so an immigrant already has to make the same or more than U.S. citizens. Isn't that wage enough to achieve the goal of H1B visas?
            • 11y ago
  • djb_hackernews 11y ago
    The thing about your example is that if a startup is hiring an engineer at 80k in the bay area, then they are underpaying and it is no wonder they can't find a US citizen interested in the job. Which is the issue with your proposal. None of the individuals interviewed would be able to compete with the large corporations if a salary were taken in to account. Which I think is fine because none of them actually sounded like the jobs the foreigners were doing were all that special and the talent could definitely be found within the US borders as long as the right price is willing to be paid.
    • justinhj 11y ago
      But according to the article the large corporations are bringing workers in at the minimum $60k salary which is why it's worthwhile to do so. If they have to pay market rates or higher and that influences their chances of getting a visa, their business model disappears.
  • dataker 11y ago
    That would only benefit companies like IBM, Microsoft, etc. Startups wouldn't be able to afford such high salaries (many rely on equity or even founding engineers). Software engineers that work in startups are different from the corporate ones.
    • scient 11y ago
      So why does a startup need to bring in (theoretically) high skilled talent on a work visa, especially if they cant afford it?
      • davidw 11y ago
        Why not, if both parties are happy with the arrangement?
        • x0x0 11y ago
          Because Paul's dream of open immigration for startup employees is a giant negative externality for the rest of us.
          • davidw 11y ago
            > Because Paul's dream of open immigration for startup employees is a giant negative externality for the rest of us. How is that? The more talented, hard-working people, the merrier! Also, by "us", you are not referring to "those of us on HN", but "those of us on HN who had the good sense to have been born in the US", correct? Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
            • x0x0 11y ago
              Lump of labour nonsense -- a claim I certainly didn't make -- is your response to VCs/large employers doing their best to leverage h1bs to reduce wages for software engineers? If that's the best you can do, let's just call that you conceding the point.
  • davidw 11y ago
    I'd prefer a system without a "magic number" of people allowed in. http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
    • rayiner 11y ago
      Population density is not the limiting factor--the rate at which people can be assimilated into American culture is. Immigration is great--I am an immigrant and am incredibly thankful for the opportunity. But what makes America an attractive place to immigrate to is ultimately rooted in its culture: low corruption, high tolerance for free thinking, low tolerance for racism and classism, respect for the economic contribution of women, directness and honesty, etc. You can't maintain culture with unrestricted immigration. The idea that you can is based on the ridiculous assumption that there is something special about America the place. There isn't. What's special is America the people.
      • brianlweiner 11y ago
        It costs our public education system over 300K to educate an American child K-12. Why not reap the benefits of pre-educated, highly skilled persons who want to make a life for themselves in America? There are only 65,000 H1-B visas per year. Surely the fabric of our country wouldn't dissolve if that number were doubled or even tripled.
        • rayiner 11y ago
          I was responding to the point in the article linked by 'davidw: the optimal number of immigrants into the U.S. is over 2 billion (i.e. to match the population density of the U.K.) But I will also note that just because someone is educated does not mean they share American values. I have met very educated people who defend practices such as requiring women to be chaperoned in public. Where I come from (south asia), coming out as gay is still unacceptable, even in educated upper-class circles. I'm willing to pay $300k educating a kid here in the U.S. if we can use that opportunity to inculcate the proper values.
  • segmondy 11y ago
    >> If only the highest paid people receive the visa, then the public would not complain as much about replacing American workers for wage reason. Not true. The public will complain about how we are rewarding foreigners instead of locals. They will lament that about poor schools, and companies not wanting to train local talent. They will cry about how the "imported workers" are taking their high wages/dollars and sending it out of the country. I will like to see every company that get's a H1B worker mandated that they must hire two paid interns. The idea behind this is that as they pay H1B workers, they also get to train younger workers who will not be hired for "lack of experience."
    • serge2k 11y ago
      > I will like to see every company that get's a H1B worker mandated that they must hire two paid interns. The idea behind this is that as they pay H1B workers, they also get to train younger workers who will not be hired for "lack of experience." The (big) companies that aren't abusing the program (Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc...) already do this. They hire loads of interns and then give offers to anyone who is up to their standard. It's a win/win system. So again, seems like we are back to the crappy outsourcing consultants.
  • URSpider94 11y ago
    When I read through your comments that you added in response to the objections below, I wonder if you consider what a bureaucratic nightmare this would be to administer? You're also creating a thicket of new calculations and regulations that could all equally be used to game the system. Some small nit-picks as an example: H1-B's are not locked to a specific location, so it would be easy enough to bring in employees for the Kansas City office, then immediately relocate them to the Bay Area at the same salary. Changing this will be really hard since free travel across the country is a fundamental US right.
    • zerr 11y ago
      > I wonder if you consider what a bureaucratic nightmare this would be to administer? Except that minimum salary thresholds for H1B's are already set (for each region). We're talking about just increasing these thresholds (e.g. 55K --> 85K and so on...).
      • blinkingled 11y ago
        You don't address his question though - which was, if you set the new threshold to 85K a company can bring in a H1B at 85K in Kansas city and then relocate him/her to SFO at the same salary. This is gaming the system again - the company gets a cheap resource without having to pay Bay Area salaries. Now we have to talk about cost of living adjusted thresholds.
        • solutionyogi 11y ago
          As I replied to the parent comment, this is not how H1B works. H1B is given for a given LCA which is location specific.
          • blinkingled 11y ago
            It can be trivially amended without change in salary - you don't even need to wait for the amendment to be approved before you can move the employee to the new location. In any case the point still stands that there would need to be location specific minimum salary requirement.
  • wobbleblob 11y ago
    But what if your start up is a Mongolian restaurant, and what you really need is a cook skilled in traditional Mongolian cuisine? It's completely plausible that such a candidate can only be found in Mongolia, but what startup restaurant can afford to pay a cook $100k ?
    • Throwaway23412 11y ago
      That's technically illegal anyway. Can't discriminate by race/nationality.
      • amatix 11y ago
        eh? Parent didn't say anything about race/nationality - "what you really need is a cook skilled in traditional Mongolian cuisine? It's completely plausible that such a candidate can only be found in Mongolia"
        • Throwaway23412 11y ago
          You can say "I need a cook skilled in traditional Mongolian cuisine" but saying "such a candidate can only be found in Mongolia" would technically be against the law in the United States (if you have 15 or more employees). Freakonomics had a whole podcast about this.
        • walshemj 11y ago
          Analogy doesn't really work is TMT work is the same world wide - and that's not counting the nice opportunities for kickbacks that would obviously occur.
    • lightbritefight 11y ago
      The answer is that you pay to train someone in mongolian cuisine before you start the business, find local mongolian cuisine talent for under 100k, or you fail. Who starts a business without the person that makes it possible in the first place on staff? If you dont have a buisness without someone you cant afford to hire, you dont have a buisness to begin with.
  • dheera 11y ago
    This would be completely counter-productive to bringing in foreign talent. The most talented and highly-skilled jobs are typically buried in the mid-range salaries. People on the higher ends of the salary range are your armchair grey-haired CEOs, armchair real estate owners, and Wall Street analysts. People on the lower ends of the salary range are your service industry personnel. Doctors, startup founders, software engineers, rocket scientists, professors, world-class musicians, and everyone you actually want to be importing foreign talent for, typically gets a modest, medium-range, middle-class salary in the US, at least when they start on any new project. Even Nobel laureates and Pulitzer prize winners usually get very mediocre salaries. Having the H1B admission be based on salary would probably just fill up all the H1B quota from Wall Street, not serve as an effective talent filter.
    • Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      Or could it put upward pressure on salaries for those who are high talent but mid salary?
    • JPKab 11y ago
      This is such a crappy argument. You're acting like cost of living at work location couldn't easily be tied in, as well as incorporating average salaries at said locations.
    • deskamess 11y ago
      If a company needs the talent they will pay for it. Do not worry about CEO's and C-levels outsourcing themselves. Either the H1B will go unused or the salaries will be paid. Either way the market will find out what the 'natural' need for outside talent is. There are other approaches but a salary floor plus an open work permit would be a decent start.
      • dheera 11y ago
        Not everyone has the money to pay market salaries, especially early-stage startups running on meager angel funds. Add to that investors who still actually think you should bootstrap yourself on ramen before trying to get any investment to properly pay your team members and employees. There's simply no way a talent-hungry startup could possibly pay anything close to what Google, Facebook, et al. offer. People who choose to work for the startup instead are doing it because they identify strongly with the problem or market, want to have a voice, or want equity. Those people also tend to be highly talented folks who value their opportunities to apply their talents much more than the monetary compensation. Freedom, ego, and voice have always been a bigger attractant for talent than salary, assuming basic life necessities are met. I've turned down multiple $300K+ job offers just because they were too boring, and simple brain rot would drain me of all the abilities that I have invested time learning and accumulating over the years.
  • JPKab 11y ago
    This is exactly the right move: The H1B abusers all have the same business model: Pretend like they can't find an American to do the job (when in reality they can but their client is willing to pay enough) and then fill it. In the end, everyone loses, because you just get a non-exceptional immigrant in place of an exceptional immigrant. I've got co-workers who are brilliant guys who have had to go back to their country, while Tata, Wipro, and all the other parasites land H1Bs so they can place a SQL Server admin who works for $45K a year and is afraid to take vacations.
    • bduerst 11y ago
      Except these are wages, not POS goods on ebay. Wages are typically set months in advance of sponsorship, and the volatility from an auction would deter most from even hiring during OPT. Lottery volatility is already making it hard, but an auction favors employers like the H1B shops who have more market signals and tips it in their favor. Since the bidding is a solution to a problem caused by the cap on # of H1B visas, why not just do away with the cap?
      • cameldrv 11y ago
        The best part about the auction model is that you could have it monthly, and then the winning bid would be fairly well known in advance. Say it's 80k for a software developer, you know that you need to pay the guy 81k or don't bother. This also massively reduces the power of the wipros of the world that employ thousands of people and apply for all of them every year, filling up the quota for people that don't already work for an outsourcing company.
        • bduerst 11y ago
          Again, why not just remove the cap? If you're rearranging the application process to solve problems created with the bidding, which is to solve problems from created from cap, why not just solve the original problem? The review process and due diligence for H1B takes months, so signals are still only available in large intervals, which creates volatility that favors high quantity employers like H1B shops.
  • fra 11y ago
    This is exactly the right idea. 1. It makes H1B sweat-shops unfeasible 2. It motivates employers to train American workers whenever possible 3. It makes it significantly more likely that the visa will go to the most in-demand skills than the current lottery system does. To those of you complaining that this is pay-to-play: there is something unpleasant about it on the face of it. The way I look at it though is that we are using salary as the best proxy we have for scarcity of a given skillset.
    • cbr 11y ago
      > It makes H1B sweat-shops unfeasible Calling a $60k job in tech in the US a "sweat shop" really trivializes the term.
      • bcassedy 11y ago
        The employees at the types of places that the parent post is referring to are often in a situation that amounts to indentured servitude. They're locked to one employer for a long period of time in one location. They have almost zero control over their situation. They're not stitching soccer balls in Vietnam, but they aren't really free either.
      • sheepmullet 11y ago
        Does it? $60k in a high cost of living area is a very small amount of money. In these tech chop shops they are usually working 12+ hour days doing shitty work. The only reason it's worthwhile for the worker is the worker is supporting family and/or setting themselves up back home. The same reason workers work in actual sweat shops.
        • dennisgorelik 11y ago
          Yes, $60k is not a "sweatshop" amount of money. http://www.sfrealtors.com/US/Neighborhood/CA/San-Francisco-Demographics.html http://www.sfrealtors.com/US/Neighborhood/CA/San-Francisco-D... San Francisco Median Income Over 65 $57,502
  • jt2190 11y ago
    Why not let the market set the salary? The H1B program sets salaries using a "central planning" model, and changing the rules for the central planners won't really fix the problem, because employers will learn how to game the new rules. A better approach is to remove the "you can only work for one employer" restriction from the H1B, and let the employee take their H1B visa with them to any job they can get. This would give the employee the same negotiating power as other employees, which will allow them to get raises or take higher-paying work for another employer.
    • ticviking 11y ago
      The problem with that approach is that the sponsoring employer has borne the cost of the Red Tape, and now the employee has increased negotiating power as they are in the USA. Using a market within the central planning of the visa program is still an incremental improvement in the efficiency of the policy and therefore a worthwhile reform to consider.
      • serge2k 11y ago
        > The problem with that approach is that the sponsoring employer has borne the cost of the Red Tape, and now the employee has increased negotiating power as they are in the USA. Which is why you better pay them market rate. This is also the exact reason for the golden handcuffs idea. Toss them a bunch of stock at the 1 and 2 year marks.
      • Zigurd 11y ago
        That's a feature, not a bug. It incentivizes the sponsor to offer a compensation package that won't be sniped.
  • makmanalp 11y ago
    There is an easier way - put an absolute cap on larger companies, or make the fee increase exponentially. This way, smaller companies can still get the talent they need, larger companies can't abuse the system. There already is a clause for "H-1B dependent" companies - if your employee pool is over 15% H-1B, you get classified as one of these. There are additional attestation requirements, but apparently not enough of an impediment.
    • KevinEldon 11y ago
      Large companies will create smaller companies to do the hiring or will work through proxies.
      • AstroJetson 11y ago
        +1 "You tell me the rules and I'll tell you how I'll beat the system" - Statement above the entrance to almost every Law School in the world.
      • spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        Put in an general avoidance rule like they do for tax and/or have the IRS sign off on all H1B as they have an interest in maximizing the tax take.
  • nickff 11y ago
    Why not make people bid for the permits themselves? This would select the applicants who are most differentiated compared with their American competitors.
    • nostrademons 11y ago
      It still wouldn't fix downward pressure on American wages, and it also increases the negotiating leverage of employers vs. their H1B employees. If employers bid for the permits themselves, there'd be a large fixed-cost component to employing an H1B, but then no incentive (indeed, an extra disincentive, since the company had to shell out to get them to the U.S.) to pay them well afterwards. And since H1Bs are sponsored by their employer, they have limited job mobility and can't just go work for a competitor, particularly since the competitor would then have to shell out even more money to win the auction for the visa. That'll put downward pressure on immigrant salaries, which in turn will put downward pressure on American salaries for workers who do the same job, as employers could substitute a one-time fixed cost to "lock in" an H1B rather than paying prevailing market wages.
      • nickff 11y ago
        It would reduce downward pressure on wages, because the permit cost would be bid up until there was an equilibrium (based on the present cost of all potential wage savings on the future). This would serve two purposes; first, there would be more transparency, and the number of visas available could be adjusted to find the 'right balance', and second, employers would be most willing to pay a high premium for talents unavailable in the domestic market. To be clear, I think all these restrictions are terrible, and am an open borders advocate, but find the design of these programs very interesting (and near impossible).
  • bduerst 11y ago
    This is a terrible idea. All employers will be incentivized not to sponsor H1B visas because it will become a bidding war. It's not a 1-day event - most of the sponsored immigrants have been already working for the employer for months through temporary OPT or CPT. The solution is to finally open up more H1B visa seats and do away with the lottery system. To be approved for the visa the immigrant already needs to be making the same or greater than the average U.S. citizen salary in the same area anyways. Edit: The problem with a bidding war isn't the price as many of you are thinking, it's the volatility. Employers are setting these wages when they hire immigrants many months in advance, and they won't do it if there is a risk they will be outbid later.
    • nostrademons 11y ago
      If all employers will be incentivized not to sponsor H1B visas, then the salary needed to get an H1B will fall to zero, and all employers will be incentivized to sponsor H1Bs since they can trivially get foreign labor. That's the mark of a successful market system: negative feedback loops so that the more out of equilibrium the system gets, the more incentive there is to bring it back into equilibrium.
      • klipt 11y ago
        Yeah but the number of H1-Bs per year (65000, some of which are reserved for Chile or Singapore) isn't set by the market, but arbitrarily by the government. Why is that number set in stone regardless of economic climate? It was obviously more than enough during the 2009-2012 slump, when there was no lottery, but not enough now.
        • nostrademons 11y ago
          Political reasons. There is a segment of America that believes that's already too much immigration for a group of people that don't share their skin color and will be making more money than them. I'd rather see the caps disappear too, but changing from a lottery to an auction seems politically achievable (particularly since it helps Apple/Google/Facebook, all of which have strong lobbying arms, while hurting TCS/Infosys/Wipro, who most Americans would be happy to see disappear), while declaring open-season on tech immigration would engender strong resistance from people who have nothing to do with tech.
  • nostrademons 11y ago
    If you change it to visa bidding based on the cash value of total compensation, you can eliminate some of the startup penalty without a huge bureaucratic nightmare. A startup would first hire a noncitizen remotely and give them equity, and then by the time they're ready to bring the remote employee on-site (maybe after a B round or so), the value of that equity will have skyrocketed, making their total comp competitive with big tech companies. Startups that aren't on that growth curve shouldn't be hiring remotely, or hiring at all really. I'm not certain that a COL adjustment is necessary either. The higher COL in the Bay Area and NYC reflects the higher productivity of workers in firms in those regions. If you want to allocate foreign specialists where they will generate the most economic value, it makes sense that they go to tech hubs with high average salaries and high costs of living. It also solves the "domestic worker displacement" problem, which seems to be more of an issue in Kansas City than in San Jose. Also, such a change would be in the interests of major tech companies like Microsoft, Google, and Apple. They already pay their H1Bs close to market rate, significantly more than Wipro/Infosys/TCS pay theirs, and so they would win a lot more of the H1B visas under this system. Someone (any insiders here?) should let their public policy teams know; they may be useful allies.
    • chucksmash 11y ago
      > The higher COL in the Bay Area and NYC reflects the higher productivity of workers in firms in those regions. What do you base this on?
      • nostrademons 11y ago
        The definitions of those statistics, median wages of employees in those industries, and the pricing behavior of highly inelastic goods like real estate. Productivity is defined as output/employees, where output is measured in dollar terms as the firm's revenue. You can run the numbers yourself, but the tech industry in Silicon Valley and the financial industry in NYC have consistently high productivity numbers. Google has consistently run at $1M+/employee for the last 10 years, for example, and Apple makes about $2M/employee. Goldman Sachs is similar. Strong competition between firms within an industry in those locales means that workers can capture a decent share of that productivity. It's not unusual for a senior engineer at Google to pull in $300K+/year in total comp, and Goldman Sachs was famous for having a mean salary of $630K+/year during the height of the financial crisis. When you have a large number of people in a region with lots of disposable income to spend, it tends to push the price of basic life expenses higher. One or two rich folks is not going to move the price of housing: they buy one or two houses (or maybe 5-10, max), and nobody else can charge more. However, a hundred thousand people that can afford a $5M mortgage is definitely going to push the price higher. They all need housing, and landlords realize that they can demand higher prices and they will find a willing buyer. Hence, cost of living increases. tl;dr: Firms in these areas hold monopoly positions that let them extract a lot of money out of customers. Employees at these firms hold competitive bargaining positions which let them (as a group) extract significant amounts of money from their employers. Widespread availability of money in the region makes prices rise.
  • wfo 11y ago
    I was under the impression there already is a requirement similar to this yet the general tactic is to hire someone for a job far, far under what they are actually going to be doing. For example, hire someone with a PhD and years of experience to be a "web designer" (a very highly paid one, making 70k!) on paper but who actually does complex distributed systems that happen to serve web pages. Honestly I'd favor an absolute minimum limit. Hiring someone through this kind of visa should be an extreme method you use to find talent you simply cannot find here at any price (not sidestep the American job market and devalue labor) since their visa is contingent upon them willing to work for you -- it's nearly indentured servitude. So you should have no problem paying them at least $200,000/year.
    • serge2k 11y ago
      > since their visa is contingent upon them willing to work for you Which is part of the problem. Why can't a visa holder just say screw you to these companies and go out and get a new job without a huge amount of risk and stress.
      • vadym909 11y ago
        The good ones mostly do and switch to their client companies so effectively a large portion of the TCS/Wipro/Infosys cadre end up at the right places that pay the most. The bad ones suck it up and stick around. So the offshore companies purposely don't hire the best ones.
    • diogenescynic 11y ago
      >hire someone with a PhD and years of experience to be a "web designer" (a very highly paid one, making 70k!) on paper but who actually does complex distributed systems that happen to serve web pages. I worked at a law firm that specialized in immigration and that's exactly what happens. They deflate the title and experience and claim much less than they could/should. The employee doesn't protest because they are still coming out ahead from where they were. All the biggest tech companies are doing this too.
  • Retric 11y ago
    You are much better off focusing on industry's than job titles. Otherwise you get into companies submitting for a junior developer with 15 years experience. Or calling a heart surgeon a doctor to avoid the pay premium. IMO, there is an advantage to importing world class talent, but subsiding companies that don't want to pay the going rate for a junior dev is a real issue.
  • salem 11y ago
    I would add one thing, that the quota be issued throughout the year for immediate use. So you get a better signal of the winning compensation thresholds and so that people with serious job offers for highly skilled jobs have a chance at starting work within a couple of months, regardless of the time of year.
  • bradleyjg 11y ago
    While this is a pretty clever idea the industry and area specific version is so subject to gaming that it drains much of the appeal of the proposal. On the other hand, the objections that lead to the modification also have some strength. So, I'm not sure it is a fruitful avenue to pursue. The law already has a provision to identify these abusive filers -- "H1B dependent employers". As the article notes, Congress let a special fee for such employers lapse. If it cared to, it could easily forbid such employers from filing further applications. Problem solved.
  • Eridrus 11y ago
    > Objections below regarding salary differences between fields (scientists vs bankers) and costs of living in different areas can be addressed by considering average salary in each field and area. I would also point out that this requirement is not without precedent and the data is already there, because there is exactly such a requirement for O-1 visas (well not exactly a requirement, but you get extra consideration if you are).
  • Aldo_MX 11y ago
    I personally like idea of bidding for the visa, as a foreigner I would even go as far as paying to increase the bid to acquire the visa.
  • fiatmoney 11y ago
    Starting with a market mechanism and then "tweaking" it by adding "corrections" by field and "points" for startups is a surefire way to end up where you started. The solution is not to bid via salary or total comp package or other BS metrics (also gameable), but to place bids directly on the visa slots - ie, the government simply holds an auction for N visas in sector X and collects the market clearing price as income. Visas will then flow to companies that can productively use them (ie, high delta between the cost of the visa + salary, and what they figure the employee produces in value. No bias towards high-salary, low-surplus occupations). A low price for visas in a field is also a handy sign that there is no actual "shortage".
    • etherealmachine 11y ago
      Defining a sector is problematic. To narrow and you can just bid for jobs in the "systems administration" sector and then move them to software engineer after hire. To broad and we miss companies that produce non-monetary value like biotech or chemical research.
      • fiatmoney 11y ago
        It's not really necessary to segment by sector; you can simply have one pool of visas. The efficiency implications actually work better that way - a "shortage" of workers in a non-productive economic sector isn't really a shortage. If you think an industry has non-economic benefits or positive externalities the correct response is to help them capture that directly, not futz with the labor market to give them an implicit subsidy.
        • etherealmachine 11y ago
          I'm thinking not of industry, but of academia and research. It's not going to work to just give blanket subsidies (like say, 20k to all Postdoc researchers) - you need a system that allows in foreign researchers, and my point is it's hard to differentiate academic research from industry research. Also, everything discussed is "futzing" with the labor market - it's not like setting up a government run auction is some sort of pure free market.
  • shmed 11y ago
    That would be incredibly unfair for companies in less profitable markets. H1-B is about being able to bring in individual with skills that you have a hard time finding in the US, not necessarily about finding "incredibly profitable software engineers that we can afford to pay $150k". Let's say an university want to bring in a Vietnamese teacher to teach about South-East Asian's studies. The university simply could not find someone with that kind of knowledge in the US, hence they want to bring in someone from a foreign country to take the role, and that person is very qualified for that role. Should their application just be dismissed because they can't offer wages that compete with big tech companies offering $200k salaries to foreign engineers? When comparing h1-b applications to fulfill jobs that are of similar position in similar markets, then comparing salaries make sense, but it doesn't make sense to compare wages across different markets and positions, as it gives a HUGE advantage to profession in more profitable markets like big tech/big pharma.
    • vowelless 11y ago
      > Let's say an university want to bring in a Vietnamese teacher to teach about South-East Asian's studies. Most universities (maybe all) are not subjected to the cap. Non-profits in general are not subjected to the cap. The proposed change should only be for the non-cap exempt jobs anyway (which tend to be at for profit places).
      • shmed 11y ago
        >The proposed change should only be for the non-cap exempt jobs anyway (which tend to be at for profit places). This still doesn't solve the issue. You are just giving the advantage to high paying industry, rather than give the advantage to companies who actually have a very specific need that they have a hard time fulfilling by hiring locally (which is the point of H1-B). Let's take for example a very profitable industry, like pharmaceutical research. Let's say for a sec that the average pharma researcher makes $200k a year. Let's also assume that there's a decent pool of people in the US that have the necessary skills to work in pharma research. Now, let's say those pharma companies would rather get foreign researchers and pay them $150k a year. Those pharma companies will still have a much easier time getting those H1-b visa compared to another company that really CAN'T find the employees they need locally due to specific need (but are still not in a industry as profitable as pharma). For example, let's say you work in a marketing firms that does international projects. For example, you want to promote American sporting apparel in a foreign country. The profile you are searching to fill : Speaking the foreign language, familiar with the foreign culture, experience in sport marketing, management experience. You can't find someone locally, but it would be pretty easy to find someone with this exact profile in the foreign country you are targeting. Unfortunately, now, you can't get that person except if you are willing to pay him the same wage as someone with a Ph.D in pharmaceutical research, because you are auctioning for the same spot. Now let's say you go for it because it's essential to the success of your project, you might end up having to pay someone 3-4 time his "market" value, making it unfair to his "locally hired" colleague that have the same amount of experience and responsibilities, but don't have the right profile for a specific project.
  • thetruthseeker1 11y ago
    Lets assume that your plan works first year and there is almost zero gaming the system. Companies like BoA or Wells Fargo, the ones who are clients of TCS/Wipro etc, what do you think they will do to account for the change in landscape (and still keep their profits high), there will be lobbying in foreign countries, and, they may make it easier for BoA or Wells Fargo to setup offices in India and move some less important divisions there if not the most important divsions? Here its hard to predict whether common sense solutions will solve the problem, because you dont know what the Nash equilibrium solution here is or you dont know how other rational actors will adapt to this rule. So the govt will have to go back and forth to get this right, the energy is better utilized in the big ticket job items that have costed america millions of jobs (not a few 10 thousands like in this one).... see my other comment on this topic.
• negrit 11y ago
  Oh wow. I'm the French engineer featured in this story, Theo Negri. Still trying to move back to the US. Hopefully this helps more than it hurts!
  • thedogeye 11y ago
    Theo, what is the startup you are doing in France? Any prospects of coming back to the US to do a startup, or is your visa situation permanently screwed up?
  • vmarsy 11y ago
    Do you have other options to get in? I'm glad this article shows legitimate uses of the H-1B like you. I made the math, if you don't have an advanced degree from the US, then the chance to get the H-1B is around 30%. With the advanced degree it's around 70%... Good luck to you!
    • throwaway29 11y ago
      Even the advanced degree route is fully gamed by mediocre Indian students. See my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10540365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10540365
      • riskable 11y ago
        Rather than link to your own comment why this Time article saying the same thing (India is graduating zillions of cheaters)? http://time.com/3752128/india-bihar-exam-cheating-climbing-walls/ http://time.com/3752128/india-bihar-exam-cheating-climbing-w... People will be more inclined to believe Time I think :)
      • bin01 11y ago
        Can you please stop generalizing mediocre Indian students gaming the system? What evidence do you have to prove your fact? Let me tell you my story just to get some facts straight: I did my undergrad in Mechanical Engineering from a small city in India. By 3rd year of Engineering, I realized I wasn't cut out to be a good Mechanical Engineer, as I wasn't enjoying CAD/CAM as much as I enjoyed writing C code. I decided it is in my best interests that I turn to programming as a profession, so I worked hard to get selected in campus placements to TCS (Yes, the same shit job which you said is beneath you). I took the job because none of the top tier companies would even look at my resume and this is best shot to work my way up. I spent close to 3 years of my time at TCS learning the basics of Programming, Web Development. Later based on my experience at TCS, I applied to top schools in US and got admitted into a top tier CS school. I took a massive education loan of 50k$ to pursue my MS in CS. Upon completion, after 13 attempts, I landed in a good start up and have ever since been working up the chain building products. I don't think I am an 10X Engineer, but I am regarded as one of the better Engineers in my company. It took a lot of motivation and courage to take such massive loans and pursue my higher education. I know of several people who have done something very similar to what I have done. So, please don't make these biased statements that just disparage the efforts of 1000's of students who come to US in hopes of a better tomorrow.
• codegeek 11y ago
  The problem with H1-B visa is that it's entire premise does not make sense anymore in 2015 (perhaps it did when they started it way back whenever). Here is why. It is supposed to be a visa for exceptionally skilled foreigners (and not just in IT) that companies should go look for if and when they cannot find suitable American citizens/permanent residents for similar jobs. Think about this. It is just so difficult to first prove this without really "gaming" it. So then starts the game. The salary requirement or "prevailing wage" as they call it is again bullshit because it is very easy to meet that requirement. Now the biggest issue which leads to severe exploitation specially by body shops: its ties to a specific employer and even though technically possible to switch jobs, it is almost impossible in practice. If we need to reform any skilled visa process including H1B, it must include : 1. No ties to a specific employer. Make it merit based. If I can get it with one employer, let me switch to another one without too much hassle 2. Min. salary requirement may still be in place but then don't make it the crap "prevailing wage". The prevailing wage for Computer System Analysts in NY is average of $65000. Does that make any sense ? What does that even mean ? Who is a Computer System Analyst ? 3. Don't make this a visa that is available when companies cannot find suitable americans for the same job. This is just not possible to prove without gaming. Instead, how about let anyone compete for the same job from across the world and let the employer decide who they want to hire. 4. Oh and last, have stricter standards for "Service based companies" or these third party contracting body shops. They should not be allowed.
  • johansch 11y ago
    > 3. Don't make this a visa that is available when companies cannot find suitable americans for the same job. This is just not possible to prove without gaming. Instead, how about let anyone compete for the same job from across the world and let the employer decide who they want to hire. That would be good for the american economy and short-term at least seen as bad by american employees. Guess why you are being down voted? :)
  • trequartista 11y ago
    H-1B visa is a work visa and as such is not employer specific. Once you are in the US with one employer, it is very easy for you to switch companies. The new company also has to file a petition, you don't go through the lottery process (since you already have the visa). USCIS just reviews your case and approves your petition with the new employer. It takes about 4-6 weeks, but it is not too much of a hassle. Source: On an H-1B visa and have switched employers.
• 6stringmerc 11y ago
  Re: H1Bs and STEM. Specifically Research positions. While an anecdotal observation at the beginning, I was able to review some of the numbers via the H1B Data site (which I believe I found through here) to get a feel for if my hunch had any merit. What struck me is that there is a very, very large public outcry that US students need to get into STEM fields, and that "the US is falling behind in reserach science!" is a genuine problem. Well, I do think that's true, but in practice, I see a push toward a corporate business model treating cheap labor as preferable to sustainable business practices. As in, I'm not delusional that research science in the US is a glamorous, higly-paid industry for which people are clamoring to get in due to greed. To my understanding, most people understand following their academic dreams isn't a path to becoming wealthy. However, it does appear that US research institutions are very comfortable with claiming more students are needed in research science, more graduates are needed...and then they drive the standard of living down by seeking out H1Bs to fill everyday positions, such as Research Associates. I wish I had the skills and or time to put such a theory to the test using various data sources (H1B data, graduation statistics, BLS information as available, etc), but for now it's simply one of those suspicions that I've developed due to personal observation; it may be overly skeptical of the system, but that's kind of the point. I like context.
• pinkunicorn 11y ago
  Wait, Amazon applies for L1 Visas. Do they offer H1B? It is given that they've filed for 700+ H1B's.
  • thedogeye 11y ago
    If Amazon filed 700 H1Bs presumably they offered those to people.
    • pinkunicorn 11y ago
      I was questioning the statistic of whether Amazon really filed 700H1B's or not.
      • the_economist 11y ago
        http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate-llc http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate-llc This data is pretty accurate.
  • helsinki 11y ago
    Amazon applies for H1Bs under many different names. For instance: [u'a2z computer services inc', u'a2z inc', u'amazon fulfillment services nc', u'a2z devleopment center inc', u'a2z signs', u'amazon services llc', u'a2z consulting inc', u'a2z technologies llc', u'amazon coporate llc', u'amazon fulfillment services', u'amazon media group llc', u'a2z signs llc', u'a2z healthcare services llc', u'amazon technologies inc', u'amazon web services', u'a2z field services llc', u'amazon pharmacy inc', u'amazon produce network llc', u'amazon mechanical turk inc',u'amazon construction inc', u'amazon produce network llp', u'a2z global llc', , u'amazoncom dedc llc', u'a2z mobile home services llc', u'amazon fulfillment services inc', u'amazon consulting corp', u'amazon web servicse llc', u'amazon studios inc', u'amazon payments inc', u'a2z development center', u'amazon cargo inc', u'amazon fulfillment services llc', u'a2z', u'amazon watch', u'amazon digital services inc', u'amazon logistics group llc', u'a2z systems llc', u'amazoncom nvdc inc', u'audible an amazon company', u'amazon web services llc', u'amazon captal services inc', u'amazon herbal company', u'amazon fulfillment service inc', u'amazon professional care', u'amazon capital services inc', u'a2z development center inc dba lab126', u'amazon corportate llc', u'amazon society inc', u'amazon electric fire alarm inc', u'a2z development center inc', u'amazon global resources inc', u'amazon corporate llc', u'amazon builders hardware inc', u'amazon hut inc', u'a2z development center inc dba amazon music', u'amazon web services inc']
• sremani 11y ago
  The current gaming of H1 is pretty damaging. TCS, Cognizant are not employing any exceptional talent. Even in India, exceptional talent does not want to work for Outsourcing mega-corps for more than few years, just to break into the field of software. I have seen case after of case, of people getting offers from Microsoft, facebook etc. could not get H1. I have seen case after case of students from Ivy League or highly reputable universities lose out H1-Bs to some guys who can barely finish a cohesive sentence. I am seeing lot of students who are applying for community colleges after a Masters degree, just to hang in US for one more year to get another shot again at H1. H1-B cannot be repaired, it has to be replaced.
  • tosseraccount 11y ago
    Moreover, an internal report in the National Science Foundation, a key government agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means of holding down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign students. The NSF added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic students away from PhD study, which is exactly what has happened. Former Fed chair Alan Greenspan has also explicitly advocated the use of H-1B to hold down tech salaries. [ source : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html ]
    • linkregister 11y ago
      An article about the Greenspan comment, which surprisingly advocates the position: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_great_equalizer_alan_green http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_grea...
      • tosseraccount 11y ago
        Lower wages for Americans so Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates can pay less and make more? There is no "labor shortage".
      • emodendroket 11y ago
        I don't find it surprising at all that the Economist would advocate a policy that would drive down wages. Why would that be surprising?
• djb_hackernews 11y ago
  H1-B is a massive corporate subsidy, even Milton Friedman says so. H1-B doesn't need to be reformed, or improved with half measures like changes to the visas being awarded based on salary, etc. H1-B needs to be abolished. Those employers that need extraordinary talent can use the O1 visa and the rest of the employers and employees can let supply meet demand. As it is now the H1-B/F1 OPT corporate loophole is skewing the education system (American universities share some of the blame) so bad that american students aren't able to get seats at American universities, and the "talent shortage" (which there isn't) becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If I were a smart, aware 18 year old person trying to decide what field of study I was interested in with a focus on career longevity and life time earnings, I sure as heck would not pick computer science, and I don't blame them.
  • itl12 11y ago
    What would you pick? Genuine question.
• tosseraccount 11y ago
  "prevailing wage" Only in la la land does massively increasing the supply of labor maintain the wage rates. Sand Hill Road : 7 Garage Startup : 0
• paulus_magnus2 11y ago
  EU-citizen here. TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning more than x. Screw H1-B. Can't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a raise. We can argue if x = 50k, 75k, 100k. In principle it shouldn't be more difficult for a professional person to re-settle than it is for a corporation.
  • objclxt 11y ago
    > TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning more than x. So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict the movement of people based on their salary? That seems highly problematic. As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU allows any citizen of a member country to travel and work in any other country regardless of income. > Screw H1-B. Can't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a raise. You can buy a house on a H1-B, you just need a credit history which you may not have if you have not been living in the US for very long. I know of several people on H1-Bs who have bought property with a mortgage. You can also change jobs. Yes, there is legal paperwork involved. In the tech industry this is not normally a problem due to the demand for talent. The fact you can change jobs also means you can negotiate a raise. Again, I know several people on H1-Bs who negotiated raises (myself included). I am not saying H1-B is a great system - it's not, I should know as I'm on one. But all three of your points are factually incorrect.
    • chrisper 11y ago
      >You can buy a house on a H1-B, you just need a credit history which you may not have if you have not been living in the US for very long. I know of several people on H1-Bs who have bought property with a mortgage. That's quite risky because if you get laid off or fired you have to leave the country immediately. H-1B is modern day slavery.
    • davidw 11y ago
      > So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict the movement of people based on their salary? I think they're suggesting opening things up so that if you make good money, you can move around with less hassle. That's less restrictive than what we have now. > As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU allows any citizen of a member country to travel and work in any other country regardless of income Within Europe. TTIP is a 'transatlantic' trade deal, so presumably they're referring to opening things up between the US and Europe, something which I fully support.
• porsupah 11y ago
  There's one additional wrinkle that the story, in fact, gets wrong: > Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker. That isn't the case. An individual may have multiple H-1B petitions filed, provided they're for different, unrelated employers. And indeed, it seems some people do pursue that route, accepting multiple offers, in order to boost their chances in an increasingly uncertain lottery. (In 2014, about half of the applications were selected; this year, about a third) And even if you're lucky in the lottery, you face months of waiting and uncertainty - filing takes place on April 1, with lottery notifications going out in June and July, whereupon processing commences. (If you're lucky enough to find a particularly good employer, they'll add $1,225 to the already substantial fees and lawyer costs, for "premium processing", guaranteeing a decision within 15 calendar days, though you still can't start until Oct 1) Decisions then tend to come through in August and September - but, that's not the end of it yet, as around a third to a half of all applications will hit the "Request for Evidence" status, which may query the company's finances or legitimacy, the candidate's education or experience, and so forth. That can take weeks more to file and then be acknowledged, whereupon processing resumes, for a decision in perhaps October or November. Bear in mind, this is all for a process that likely started with interviews in January or February, to give enough time for the employer to gather the documentation required for filing.
• pinkunicorn 11y ago
  This also kind of makes me sad. My cousin who works for one of the service based companies got the H1B and is now in the US. I consider myself if not better talented, more knowledgeable than him. I worked my ass off in college, got multiple offers from Google/Amazon/Facebook and yet because of H1B, I had to work in India. The problem is not so much with being in India, but being distanced from the company HQ. I would've been so much better off had I worked at my company's head quarters than in the Indian satellite office.
• hibikir 11y ago
  Analysis of the H1B visa, and how it really helps big consulting firms, is incomplete without also looking at the perspective of the H1B visa holder. I think I can help, as I used to have one. Why do people get H1B visas? It's rarely because they want to work in the US for a few years: It's because they want to stay. I know I did. But how can a prospective immigrant move to the US? By getting sponsored, and waiting for the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come back (it varies, but 5+ year waits happen). The best way to do that is to get an H1B, and then, when the company you work for realizes you are actually good at your job, start the permanent immigration process. The trick is that you have to look for an employer that will take you, and you expect will still be there in 5+ years, and hoping that no layoffs hit you, because layoffs complicate, if not just completely restart, an immigration process. So what do people do? They go with an outsourcer. The outsources will never lay you off: They just ship you to another client. It's an extra layer of insurance if things go bad. So ultimately, the way the system is set up, getting an H1B through one of those big consulting/outsourcing firms is also in the best interest of the people wanting to move to the US. While I do not think there's much agreement on how to solve the problem, regardless of whose interests we have in mind, it 's pretty clear that the system is broken, as it has all kinds of perverse incentives, forcing good, honest people into situations nobody likes. But to fix this, we need a major overhaul of how the US employment-based immigration works. Now, the problem there is of the very diverse interests, which we can see on any tech website: Some people just want us immigrants out of here, thinking that will help them. Others want to increase immigration, thinking that the most qualified people are in the US, the better for the US tech industry. But if there's no sensible compromise, what we get is what we have: A system that doesn't serve anyone very well, much less the people like me who went through it. In my case, I was fortunate enough to come in back when any company could get an H1B if they showed they needed a programmer, and coming from a country with extremely high unemployment, the risks outweighed the rewards. But it was very frustrating to be economically tied to an employer (for about 6 years in my case), and knowing that a job switch in the middle of the green card process, or a layoff, could mean having to go back home.
  • objclxt 11y ago
    > and waiting for the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come back (it varies, but 5+ year waits happen) Most of these outsourcing firms are Indian, and in those cases it's actually worse than that. The latest visa bulletin shows an eleven year wait for Indians applying for green cards (the delay between the application being filed and processed). This compares with a three month wait for an EU citizen. The sheer difference in time scales should give you some idea of the vast numbers of Indian H1-B holders.
• mabbo 11y ago
  Simpler answer: open offices outside of the US. Amazon and Google both have big offices in Ontario (Toronto and Waterloo, respectively) which are growing quickly. Easier time with immigration issues, a low Canadian dollar (cheaper salary costs), and very low health-care costs for the company. Why would they not? Bias note: I work at Amazon Toronto. (We are hiring! my username@amazon)
  • zerr 11y ago
    just to add one point from (prospective) employee PoV: low salaries ;) How common are 150-200K+ base salaries (even in Canadian dollars) among non-manager engineering staff? Places like Toronto remind me many European places: low salaries, high cost of living (even in absolute numbers, compared to USA).
    • mabbo 11y ago
      What good is a 150-200K base salary if you have to pay Bay Area prices for everything?
      • rfrey 11y ago
        Only housing is higher in the bay area as compared to Toronto (disregarding exchange rates - assume one is paid US/CDN and pays rent in USD/CDN). So if you pay $1000-$2000 more in the bay area (not unrealistic - I just did a deep-dive on a move from Toronto to SF) your base salary in CDN should be in the area of $125k - $175k if the issue is cost of living. From what I've seen, Toronto salaries are about half that, I've seen positions advertised for as low as $65k and the highest I saw was $110k (both CDN) for an engineering manager.
  • chrisper 11y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, is your salary compared to the people in Canada quite high? (Kind of like in the U.S.) I know that in some countries making money as a software engineer is as lousy as working in a bakery.
• oldpond 11y ago
  Canadian IT consultant here, and I don't even look at opportunities in the US anymore. I used to respond to the recruiters with "Do you know I live in Canada", and the conversation would end (I think most of them don't know Canada is not a State). Now I just delete them from my inbox. It's next to impossible to cross the border for work as an independent. Big IT still sends resources across for projects, but I haven't met any independents in years who have worked down south.
  • aheilbut 11y ago
    As a Canadian, why can't you do such work on TN status?
    • oldpond 11y ago
      Sure, but this requires a sponsoring company, and here are some stats. http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are-issued-last-year/ http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are-issu...
  • ifuyivara 11y ago
    have you looked into the TN visa? Pretty fast and simple to get and is not part of any "quota". I know a lot of Canadians and Mexicans in the IT industry that got it (I myself started with a TN visa, then moved to H1B and now on GC after 5 years). And the TN visa can be renewed indefinitely as long as you still meet the criteria for it
• suprgeek 11y ago
  This is a very well known issue that has been brought up before. The NYT Piece has a basic error: the case highlighted of Mr. Négri - His H1-B Visa was not Denied (which would imply that his case was processed), it was returned without being accepted. There are also two well know tweaks that can take the perverse incentives out of the H1-B system: 1) Allow the H1-B to be a work permit with free movement between like jobs at other companies - this will reduce underpayment and remove the virtual slave-labor conditions of an H1-B holder 2)Reform the Labor Certification process (the precursor allowing you file) so that it actually ensures that no Americans can be found - the current state of the LC system is a joke.
  • solutionyogi 11y ago
    I am not sure how you can reform the labor certification process when the goal of the process is to find 'whether there are qualified Americans' to do this job. Other than a very few cases, I guarantee you that there is not a single job where you can't find an American to do the job if you are willing to pay the price.
• Allower 11y ago
  Oh yeah, blame the companies, not the system. Typical idiocy from the NYT
• ck2 11y ago
  The entire H1B system is a "game" for big business There is no way they cannot find people already in the USA to fill those positions, they just don't want to pay full wages/benefits.
  • lostwinder 11y ago
    I think this is not correct, probably they can find people already in the USA to fill those positions if they are willing to narrow their search scope, but well established companies like Google, Microsoft and Apple, they pay the same full wages and benefits with no difference from American citizens. They even pay higher salary for better qualified International workers.
  • rrecuero 11y ago
    The system needs to be revisited. I am a spanish citizen and I recently got my green card. 3 years ago, I got really lucky that my H1B got selected through the lottery. That said, that month waiting to know was really frustrating. You feel helpless. It's crazy to see how much your life can be affected because the computer chooses your number in a lottery. You feel helpless. From my point of view, the solutions described above are steps in the right direction. - Limiting the number of visas per company - Prioritizing jobs according to different criteria like salary or how much the company needs the employee - Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the green card lottery)
    • ambrood 11y ago
      > - Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the green card lottery) How can anyone in their right mind justify per country caps that signify the racialist compromises of the Civil Rights Act. I came to this country at 17 as an undergrad and have a US tax payer funded Masters degree from a top 5 university (not that I believe US news ranking is all that important. I've been here 9 years and can fairly say that I'm as an integrated immigrant as any, but i wont be getting a greencard anytime before 2025 because I'm an Indian. From my perch i could also find it maddening that a UX designer who happened to be born say in the EU gets their residency in a matter of months with far less investment or attachment to this country. People don't come to this country as representatives of their government.
• littletimmy 11y ago
  What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor? The US is in a unique position in the world where it can absorb the very best people from around the world. Surely these people are not going to be a drain on the public funding system or social services. Just let them come in and work for american corporations.
  • davidw 11y ago
    > What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor? Mostly short-sighted people from the US who think that they're entitled to higher wages because they were born in the USA, and who do not realize that large companies can and will go abroad to seek talent, and that if things get bad enough, countries that are more open and willing to accept newcomers are where the best startup ecosystems will eventually form.
  • walshemj 11y ago
    The main and utilitarian argument is that it distorts the market both for salary and education.
• throwaway29 11y ago
  Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit about the beauty of algorithms or programming. Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. I want to, but I could not: because I couldn't afford to pay for a Masters degree in USA back then nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed. There are two ways to game the H1B, the NYT article covered only one of them. The other is the 20,000 visas given to those who finished a Masters/PhD degree in USA. If they break out the numbers for these, they will find something that is an open secret known to all Indians: this 20K too is totally dominated by Indians. Among my family and friends back in India, how to game the H1B's other 20K visas is also an open secret. These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. They get the admission, pay the fees, pass the course. Then they take internships to stay on after the degree, keep applying and taking interviews relentlessly until something works out. I believe they can stay on in the US for a few years by extending their visa in this way, until they get a H1B.
  • kamaal 11y ago
    Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by a big margin. Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get things done with maximum levels of productivity. >>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it. >>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way. People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they do to get there. >>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed. You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems. >>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are below you are able to make a living, while you aren't. >>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or grades, its more than that.
• cwyers 11y ago
  Large companies game pretty much everything, thanks to things like regulatory capture and the fact that they have the resources and the incentive to do so. I'm coming around to the idea that as a philosophy, capitalism doesn't work in the face of companies past a certain size (Adam Smith thought that they would be too inefficient to survive, which is why he didn't pay them too much mind). I don't know what to do with this thought though.
• trustfundbaby 11y ago
  immigrant here ... the one change that would make the h1b immediately useless to big companies, or at least make them play fairly is to allow h1b holders move between companies freely and file for a green card on their own (providing paystubs to prove employment) after 3 years instead of having to rely on the company to do it for them. Right now if you lose a job on h1b, you have to live the country IMMEDIATELY. Can you imagine the kind of fear of losing your job that instills in a person who has been here even more than a few years? You'll accept any injustice just if it guarantees you being able to stay and eventually get a green card. The program has to be fixed/updated.
• AstroJetson 11y ago
  "“I would expect most people would feel Atulya was making a positive contribution to the U.S. economy,” he said. “There is no American who could do his job. Without Atulya, there would be no company.” Wow, you are one BART bus away from being gone. I can see making a statement like this in your request to have someone come and in their application to be a citizen. But if your entire business model depends on one person you should get another smart person to shadow them to have some kind of backup plan. I'd be scared to death to be an employee where my future depended on them being alive and healthy.
• oldmanjay 11y ago
  All complicated legal systems are built by lawyers to be gamed by lawyers. I guess there's some value in generating outrage about it in that there are ad impressions to sell, but as lawyers run the government for their own benefit foremost, expect no meaningful changes.
  • mavelikara 11y ago
    Yes, the only people benefiting from these complicated rules are the lawyers. Here is Aman Kapoor, Founder of Immigration Voice @ CIS Ombudsman Conference pointing this out colorfully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI
• CodeSheikh 11y ago
  Simple short term solution would be to pay special attention to applications coming from Wipro/Infosys/TCS and not treat them same as applicants from Google/Apple/Amazon. This will sure improve the odds for the next year's lottery. And eradicate consultancies for the love of God. The relationship should not be Employee-to-Employer's payroll. Instead it should be Employee-to-Employer's product.
• helsinki 11y ago
  I recently ran some entity-resolution code on the h1b applications from 2008-2012. Here are a list of the companies that Amazon has applied as: [u'a2z computer services inc', u'a2z inc', u'amazon fulfillment services nc', u'a2z devleopment center inc', u'a2z signs', u'amazon services llc', u'a2z consulting inc', u'a2z technologies llc', u'amazon coporate llc', u'amazon fulfillment services', u'amazon media group llc', u'a2z signs llc', u'a2z healthcare services llc', u'amazon technologies inc', u'amazon web services', u'a2z field services llc', u'amazon pharmacy inc', u'amazon produce network llc', u'amazon mechanical turk inc', u'a2z medical supplies co', u'amazon construction inc', u'amazon produce network llp', u'a2z global llc', u'amazoncom dedc llc', u'a2z mobile home services llc', u'amazon fulfillment services inc', u'amazon consulting corp', u'amazon web servicse llc', u'amazon studios inc', u'amazon payments inc', u'a2z development center', u'amazon cargo inc', u'amazon fulfillment services llc', u'a2z', u'amazon watch', u'amazon digital services inc', u'amazon logistics group llc', u'a2z systems llc', u'amazoncom nvdc inc', u'audible an amazon company', u'amazon web services llc', u'amazon captal services inc', u'amazon fulfillment service inc', u'amazon professional care', u'amazon capital services inc', u'a2z development center inc dba lab126', u'amazon corportate llc', u'amazon society inc', u'amazon electric fire alarm inc', u'a2z development center inc', u'amazon global resources inc', u'amazon corporate llc', u'amazon builders hardware inc', u'amazon hut inc', u'a2z development center inc dba amazon music', u'amazon web services inc']
• elcct 11y ago
  What's so good about US that someone would like to work there and not UK for example?
  • walshemj 11y ago
    Higher salary's and higher status for engineers would be the main two.
• realrocker 11y ago
  Capping the visa limit per company should do it. I am sure the loophole has been lobbied in .
• elchief 11y ago
  Large companies game everything they can. If they're public companies, their directors are required to.
• xux 11y ago
  So by "game", you mean they submit the applications early? Not sure if I follow.
• sehugg 11y ago
  An outsourcing firm was fined by the DOJ in 2013 for alleged visa fraud: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request-visas-foreign-workers/story?id=20730536 http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request-visa... Note also how some of these companies spend millions of dollars in lobbying each year: https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000000786&year=2015 https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00000078...
• ramanujam 11y ago
  The H1B abuse discussion comes up once every few months on HN and elsewhere but things have gotten a lot worse in the past 2 years with the lottery. There are a number of definitive and progressive steps that USCIS can take to prevent misuse by TCS, CTS and other consulting companies. Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of the workforce will solve this issue. This will work well for everyone (large tech companies, startups, small businesses) except the sweatshops. If i had to take a guess (not hard to verify), 95+% of employees of the consulting companies will be underpaid visa workers. The prevailing wage is a joke ($70k in the bay area for someone with 5 years experience) and enforcing salary based bidding isn't really a practical solution. It can easily be gamed or it will only be beneficial for a certain group of employers. I wrote an essay two and half years back on how to fix this and it is sad that all those are still true http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled-immigration-problem.html http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled-immigration-proble...
  • falsestprophet 11y ago
    "Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of the workforce" This can be gamed too. Large employers could start operating bodyshops. Say the H1B limit was only 5% of a company's workforce. Then Walmart could sponsor 110,000 workers. Yum!Brands could sponsor 22,000 workers. This probably wouldn't even put Infosys or Tata out of business in the US they would provide the same recruitment and management services they do now, but other companies (in this example Walmart and Yum) would be the sponsors of record.
• dataker 11y ago
  Honestly, this is a sad thread, showing many US ideological biases in presumedly intelligent people. Many pseudo-libertarians want to use central-planning to determine wages(!) of foreigners while criticizing the minimum wage.
  • davidw 11y ago
    Every time this issue comes up here, the "us vs them" comes out very strong. It is indeed quite sad. I flag these kinds of articles because they don't really add to the site.
• wahsd 11y ago
  Say it ain't so! What, our corporations use immigration to triage short term problems instead of being forced to come up with long term solutions by closing down immigration and forcing corporations and government to come up with a solution to educate our own people??? Yeah, I know, screw those mostly black poor people in underserved communities, we'll just continue importing talent and siphoning it off of other countries to solve immediate impediments to extracting profits.
• marcoperaza 11y ago
  How about we just get rid of immigration caps and other restrictions? Limit the amount of public benefits that recent immigrants can receive and open the borders. An infusion of ambitious and hard-working immigrants has always done wonders for this country. Let's recapture that frontier spirit of rugged individualism. Let's tell the world: "This is the place where your hard work can make a better life for you and your family. Where you control your own destiny. America is open for business again." Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about immigration policy in general, not just H1Bs. The reason to limit public benefits would be to, in the absence of restrictions on immigration, ensure that people are coming to work, not to live off the state. Public benefits in the US pay better than most jobs in a lot of countries. We shouldn't stick our heads in the sand and pretend that such incentives don't matter.
  • finance-geek 11y ago
    No one is really worried about H1B workers "receiving benefits"...we're not speaking about laborers. The core problem is that tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of local graduates are sitting idle, unemployed, looking for work, while companies claim there is a "shortage." In reality, there is only a shortage of companies willing to pay market wage. The reality is that local grads (Joe Smith in Columbus Ohio) is not willing to live 2hrs away and dorm with four other guys in a H1b exurb hostel...while some guy from India is...and this is why they are hired, not because there is a lack of local talent but because few local grads are willing to work for so little that they are essentially reduced to exurb hosteling.
    • marcoperaza 11y ago
      I don't believe in government protections for elite workers. The median salary for H1B-holders is north of $70,000, well above median household income in the US, let alone individual income. I'm sure that within particular industries H1Bs make less than local workers, but perhaps the pay in those industries is inflated due to the low supply of workers. Ironically it is technology workers, responsible for more labor-market disruption than immigration and trade combined, who are complaining the most about competition from H1Bs. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
• alagappanr 11y ago
  Why not just increase the fees for companies that are filing a lot of H1B applications? For example, they could charge 4000$ per application for the first 100 applications and then increase it to say $8000 or $10000. Companies that are taking advantage of this, would be discouraged due to the higher fees. At the very least, it would bring down the number of applications from these companies and would increase the chances of other smaller companies.
  • jefftk 11y ago
    The spin of the article is that smaller companies are more deserving, but I don't see why we should expect that in general. If Apple or FB bring in a thousand people on H1Bs, is that a problem?
    • emodendroket 11y ago
      Any one hire has less impact at a company employing thousands or tens of thousands of people than at a company whose employees number in the single or double digits.
• chubalub 11y ago
  Trump seems to be the only candidate who is addressing this. Gotta make America great again, stop exploiting India.
• ArtDev 11y ago
  In addition to what has already been said, the H1B visa system drives wages down. All of the foreign nationals I worked with could not negotiate a higher salary by changing jobs. Their employer owns their visa, so they can't just get a better job. Big companies game the system. We should change the law. The individual should be able to take their H1B elsewhere like a green card.
• throwaway7796 11y ago
  This article doesn't even scratch the surface of how "job consultancies" game H1B. I know for a fact that these "job consultancies" apply for H1B for a person using their services, as an employee of more than one company. Employees needing sponsorship typically apply for H1B through the company they are actually working for and as employees of couple other companies that they don't actually work for (the "job consultancies"). So effectively, the person's probability of getting picked up in the lottery in a year is tripled. Once they secure the H1B, the person is more than willing to resign from the current employer and work for these "job consultancies" temporarily. And since H1B transfer is not that complicated, they jump ship to any other company later.
• telephoner 11y ago
  You can fill any job without H-1B if you put in enough money (you may need a bit too much though). The bigger the shortage, the bigger the spread of salary between americans and foreigners salaries. So, if a company doesn't get the visa it will pay the spread, or worse, it will produce less. Minimizing the total loss of the companies under a constraint of total number of visas is a very simple problem mathematically speaking: by selling H1B visas to the highest bidders. Plus, it means that these companies are compensating society for bringing more job competition.
• flyrain 11y ago
  Does anyone mention that these companies usually file multiple H-1B for the same person? That one of the major reason how Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) like companies get so much visas, and which is unfair to others.
• emodendroket 11y ago
  It seems like the lottery should be weighted in favor of more companies getting the visas instead of being totally random, although I suppose that system is also not immune to gaming.
• tayloormon 11y ago
  Trump is the only candidate who wants to make it fair for H1Bs and Americans. Let's make America great again, for all people!
• scrame 11y ago
  In other news, water is wet.
• tn13 11y ago
  Not my circus not my monkeys but I find the public discourse around immigration pretty astonishing. Somehow raising the H1B cap from 65K to say 100K would take away American jobs and drive down wages but legalizing few million illegal immigrants (many of whom are barely educated) is a humanitarian gesture ? Even if those thousands are Chinese and Indians are willing to work for lower wages and aren't technically special, they are indeed far more productive than illegal immigrants, have significantly lower crime rates and probably lowest reliance on welfare. Not to mention, higher you go up the skill level more people does not mean driving down wages on the contrary it means increase overall output of that industry. Two engineers can invent a bike 5 can invent a car. On other other hand 1 gardener is useful 2 gardeners drive down wages of each other. H1B and overall immigration policy of USA does not seem to be based on sound economic arguments but rhetoric. No wonder results are a disaster.
• anupshinde 11y ago
  This breeds mediocrity. It creates problems for both sides - USA where talent gets sidelined for less costly resources and it promotes mediocre-go-onsite culture back in countries like India - and talent gets discounted/demoralised back there too.
• gdilla 11y ago
  The simple way to fix this is to remove the indentured servitude. In a fair market, labor is free to move around. Overnight, the incentive for companies to hire H1Bs go out the door, because all the advantages of doing so (below market servitude for years) disappears.
• WalterBright 11y ago
  Any system based on bureaucratic rules rather than market forces is going to get gamed.
• ulobaba 11y ago
  A question, how long does it take for "rest of the world" engineers with H1B visa to get Green card from the day they apply? Assume it is EB2.
• riskable 11y ago
  Rather than bidding for visas or other points-based systems or even abolishing H1Bs why not this: For every H1B worker an employer must have at least one American working the same exact job making the same exact salary as the H1B worker. Pair programming is a thing you know :) A 1-to-1 ratio would solve the "prevailing wage" scams as well as the "we can't find any qualified workers" nonsense because even if a company couldn't find a "qualified worker" they would have to hire a US citizen and train them in that job (or I guess they could just pay them to sit but that'd be very wasteful). What quicker way to end the "skills gap" than to force these supposed, "uniquely high skilled" foreigners to train their local American counterparts?
  • dennisgorelik 11y ago
    > "prevailing wage" scams Who exactly is getting scammed in prevailing wage scams?
    • riskable 11y ago
      American workers and the US government (to a lesser extent). What's the "prevailing wage" for IT workers at an Indian outsourcing firm? $60k. What a surprise! That's the scam: If those workers were Americans doing the same job they'd be paid a lot more than that. Probably double or more in many markets! The system is being abused. Disney wants to lower IT costs but it can't just replace their workers with H1Bs because that's A) illegal and B) they'll never get enough. Tata to the rescue! By replacing those American IT workers with Tata H1Bs they completely get around all the safeguards built into the law to prevent that precise situation.
    • dennisgorelik 11y ago
      > American workers ... getting cheaper services due to cheaper labor cost in other industries. They also getting better employment opportunities, because companies grow faster with better selection of labor. In addition to that immigrants are more likely to hire in the future, so it also improves opportunities for American workers. > US government ... wins, because there are more employees to tax and corporations have higher profits. > The system is being abused. ... by politicians, restricting access to jobs to some categories of workers.
• dennisgorelik 11y ago
  As usual with H1B discussions, most of commentators here are full of hidden xenophobia. Almost nobody voices the interest of foreigners who struggle to get better paying jobs in their countries (just keep these foreigners out of here, so we can squeeze an extra dime from our fat employers).
  • colordrops 11y ago
    Are you saying that there should be no restrictions on foreign workers in the US? If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe that there are insiders and outsiders, and the insiders get more rights and privileges than the outsiders. If not, the state no longer exists. What are you suggesting?
    • dragonwriter 11y ago
      > If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe that there are insiders and outsiders No, that doesn't follow. In many models of "the state", the existence of outsiders is essentially a failure mode; the state seeks to be all-encompassing. Now, if instead of the "the concept of the state", you mean "the concept of the status quo system of multiple coexisting sovereign nation-states", you'd have a point. But I don't think anyone thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for.
      • colordrops 11y ago
        > But I don't think anyone thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for. I agree, and despite that most people probably misinterpreted my first comment, I am complete against the existence of any state that separates individuals. But do you really think that _no one_ thinks that multiple coexisting sovereign nation-states is a good idea? Isn't that the idea behind nationalism?
    • dennisgorelik 11y ago
      > Are you saying that there should be no restrictions on foreign workers in the US? May be no special restrictions at all (people are supposed to be equal, right?). But we can start with reducing existing restrictions. For example we can keep these restrictions: - Background check (no criminal past) - Revoke Welfare benefits for 5 years. - $1K Green card processing fee. - 1 month Green card processing time. ? Don't you think that these restrictions are significant enough? Do you need more restrictions in order to get ahead of foreign workers?
• deegles 11y ago
  I have another "simple" idea: modify the lottery to distribute the visas more evenly. Step 1: Randomize the list of employers with applicants. Step 2: Give one visa to each employer in a round-robin fashion until they are exhausted or they have no more applicants. The company then decides which of its applicants gets the visa. Assuming that there are fewer than 65k employers petitioning each year, each employer could count on at least 1 petition succeeding.
• enra 11y ago
  I'm currently an visa holder, not H-1B though. For me H1B has always been the standard option to get a work permit in US. If you have a college degree, skills and someone is willing to give you job, it's a visa to work in US few of years or longer. For many people it's pretty much the only option. In this time of global mobility, it's crazy how hard and how limited the visa options are for this purpose. Sometimes I see people talking here about moving to Europe. In Europe, there is a similar system for foreigners to work there. You apply for a work permit, and if the company and you meet the sanity check, it usually gets granted. That's it. There is no artificial annual schedules, caps or lotteries. Salaries Myth. Excluding those outsourcing companies, I've never saw or known anyone get hired in a startup with much less salary just because they are a non-resident alien (sample size ~100) (Obviously foreigners don't always have as good market information about costs and salaries as locals.). Also I never heard any founder say that lets hire bunch of foreigners because it's so cheap and easy. Usually the hires end up costing more since you have to pay to relocate, pay the lawyers, and a hr person to create and manage process for the employees. I understand that lot of people want to come to US, so there needs to be some limits, but it's crazy how hard or complicated this system currently is.
• thetruthseeker1 11y ago
  Lets look at this problem. 20K visas are gamed every year. Lets assume polices in place made them unable to game the system, we might have save as much as 8OK jobs say here in the USA (assuming 3 jobs from India are also moved back to US in addition to the one in US). But people who know economics say that is not a big deal or the source of American economic woes, it is the decimation of manufacturing and millions of jobs having gone to China + Korea + Indonesia + India +...rest of the world. It is globalization. So why is this not talked about? The reason being: unlike H1B visas they are not easily quantified in terms of number of "human jobs" even though they are a factor of magnitude larger I would reckon. However, they can be measured by trade deficit that America builds up( because the money goes to that country) and you are right about which country America has the highest trade deficit with US (worth millions of jobs in USA). So H1B visa is really a small fry, but delicious fry and easy catch and an easy problem to describe and easy to vilify. Also, if the H1B visas were completely eliminated, its not like those jobs may stay in the US forever, companies may find alternate strategies to get less " important " work done by foreigners.
• tankerdude 11y ago
  This topic has been hashed through so many times and it's always the same. H1Bs are used to distort the costs for engineering, not for hiring skilled workers that we cannot find. The engineers are then treated like slaves (Infosys), and at below market rates, to further distort the market value of these workers. So we know that the companies are just simply lying when they say, "We can't find US workers." It's always, "We can't find US workers for what we want to pay." We know how they game it, and we know how it can be fixed, but the politicians simply won't step up. It's political suicide. I'm glad that some people are poking at this problem, but the corporations are the ones with the deep pockets and we know who wins out there. We can only rant and rave, send letters to deaf congressmen and yet, it seems like it's just completely moot and we're just plain ignored. Sad state of affairs with easy fixes, but no political will. That's the state of the US these days it seems: Corporation ruled.
• mtimjones 11y ago
  This can be fixed by forcing companies to pay H-1B's the same wage as local hires and allow them to quit and move on to other companies if they're unhappy. The benefit to companies would disappear, and so would H-1B.